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The Helminth: Dev Workshop


[DE]Rebecca

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vor 1 Minute schrieb -SicMundusCreatusEst-:

The point is that the 1st ability of Rhino wouldn't be used by anyone. 

This purpose of this system is try to fix as many skillset as possible.

 

no the point of this system is that DE doesn't need to rework frames anymore because we ll do it ourselves with abilities from popular frames. 

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1 minute ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

If you don't need more damage, why do you care if it gets removed? You don't lose anything, you will still 1 shot enemies 2 hours in. And it's Khora, what do you expect?

And Charge provides some degree of survivability. Have you thought of Nezha to use Ironclad Charge to supercharge his wards? Valkyr for even more armor? Inaros? 

The Armor buff is tied to your duration so the more you have the more it lasts and you can just charge again to keep the armor.

It does matter in boss Eidlon hunts and Vallis bosses. Also, if damage becomes too high, will go back to aoe weapons one shooting a room. You cannot do that on steel path, currently. 

For solo play, you rarely do need damage against anything susceptible to procs. Skills like defy would have far more value, which no surprise, is nerfed. It provided a frame with lowest armor 84% damage reduction to health. No surprise here at all. Elemental ward flew under the radar, but few frames can get much benefit out of it.

I am suspecting there will be nerfs to empower, shooting gallery, null star and elemental ward, after the system is implemented. Molt and Resonator are a maybe. People will cry rivers 😐. But be warned, it is strongly likely to happen. 

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4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

The question though, if the original post had these abilities with already reduced value and MR 8 for the system, would anyone even be complaining now?

Glad you asked. No my upset would be far from existing.

However I was under the impression that players like me would be getting a system built for the "very experienced warframe players". And the taste of it turned sour when I was then informed that any MR 8 players could get access to this. I also feel that the nerfs would not exist if this system really was for "very experienced warframe players ".

4 hours ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I also find the complaint about MR and nerfs to skills paradoxical. If you are MR15 Steel path should already jello path for you. Skills that add damage, are not even needed, except if you are doing Eidolon or Vallis boss fights. And if you are MR15 and cannot easily clear steel path, cuz all you do is farm junk to level MR, you do are not at end game. Not even close. And if you are already high MR and have top tier weapons, this is just cherry on the cake. Why does it matter who else gets access to the system. They can make it MR0. I do not care. It has no impact on me. 

 

Indeed. I beat the steel path in under 72hours of release. That doesn't change the fact that the system was announced as being for "very experienced warframe players" and it's clearly not anymore. 

Yes it has no impact on us. Yet! DE will make changes to the system based on popular choices and opinions as they Always have! And if these changes include usages from these lower experienced players (MR8-14) then it's more likely to change the stats of skills i use due to players using a system that is far too potent for them. 

Being lower in the game creates the want to catch up or a reason to become complacent. Sadly with everything unlocking so low its often the latter.

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vor 35 Minuten schrieb Fujiwuji:

This "why do you need roar you do enough damage already" is the most brain dead take possible. You people are nothing if not NPCs just parroting what you read that sounded smart instead of having agency and thinking for yourself.

If necessity is the condition then what is the point of THIS WHOLE SYSTEM? All content is doable by every single frame. You don't need more damage because "you already do enough", you don't more tankiness because nothing does enough damage and failure has no consequence regardless, you don't need more mobility because operator dashes are faster than everything else already and so it goes. Actually, what is the necessity to even PLAY this game? There is none. 

The point of this system is NOT to give us what we "need", it is to open out a fan of possibilities to a frame you like. Why do you think they avoided choosing so many similar 1s like Banshee, Excal, Chroma's etc? It would be redundant. Even the 1s they picked were unique for the most part. Limbo with the banish feature, Volt and Oberon with their augments, Loki with his aggro relief or Nyx with her Mind Control. They INTENTIONALLY went out of their way to make sure the selection is as varied as possible instead of going with either easy routes of "Just give the most OP ability away" or "Just always give the most useless ability away". 

The reason people are getting agitated over this incident is that because as usual, DE is shooting themselves on the foot. This fusion system is incredibly interesting and it can breathe new life onto older players interest in the game, making them want to figure out what they can create. Showing us the extensive customization to then days later say "Actually we are burning it to the ground before you even get the chance" is just stupid, which is even more funny, because as I said before, unless they completely destroy something like Roar, it will still be the best option for many players. Put it to 50% of its full power and observe, as most people still pick it, Larva etc because they are still the option that adds the most within the limited one slot restriction. Smart people will always go for what gives them the most, and guess what? Nerfing these abilities won't make any Saryn player think about Reave all of sudden.

And mind you, I actually don't really care for Roar or Larva. What I'm most interested in is Volt's or Oberon's 1, or even Grendel's for that matter. The reason I'm complaining is that because it's a slippery slope. They nerf the "overpower" abilities, then they will go after the next best thing which are probably the ones I just mentioned. And then the next one. And then the next one. Can you see where this will inevitably go? If the community is just OK with the frankly lazy responses DE has to the meta of the game, they will just continue to do it, making players frustrated, making them less likely to keep playing, and even worse, making them less likely to recommend to friends, create videos about it or stream the game. Do I REALLY need to talk about a certain F2P Shooter competitor that's overtaking warframe in player count again?

 

Excuse me? I came up with this brain dead take all on my own. Credit where credit's due, please!

You also basically say the exact same thing. Does that make you a brain dead NPC parrot too?

Happy Smiley Face GIF by DreamWorks Animation

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Changes should be based on what people end up actually using. Do a check and see if some abilities are used too much and what needs to be balanced.

Statistics matter, not what someone says before update is released without even trying it. And half people are trolling probably because they dont like system itself or wanna create chaos as usual. 

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After reading the warframe ability convertions, the nerfs, and concerns, I share a lot of concerns with everyone here. The damage buff limitation was nessissary, and the select abilities you have chosen will be welcome additions to the Warframes I have. But my main concerns are as follows:

1.) Will Prime Warframes (and Umbra) be able to partake in this, via gaining the abilities from the Helminth. I am aware they said Primes can't be consumed as it is 'bad taste' for it, but will they be able to gain these abilities?

2.) Is Roar and Warcry the best idea to give to every warframe? Even with the nerfs to the damage increase and limitations to one damage buff at a time on a frame, I can see this breaking quite a few aspects of certain frames. Mainly Saryn, Mesa, Baruuk, the usual culprits, as well as a couple of other unlikely ones are gonna rely on this. Hopefully when this releases and we get a grasp on this system, it won't be as bad as it seems. Hopefully.
 

3.) Valkyr has fallen farther into obsolecence with this, as Warcry is given to other warframes. Being outshined by Baruuk and a couple other warframes since the Melee 3.0 update, things for Valkyr have since sharply declined from what I have seen. When will we see her get fixed up and made valid again?

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18 hours ago, ValloVN said:

Changes should be based on what people end up actually using. Do a check and see if some abilities are used too much and what needs to be balanced.

Statistics matter, not what someone says before update is released without even trying it. And half people are trolling probably because they dont like system itself or wanna create chaos as usual. 

This is still the wrong approach.  The real solution is to make the other things a better choice, not make the good choices mediocre so that the whole system is underwhelming.

What needs to happen is they need to look at cases where things interact and are truly broken... apparently they didn't nerf breach surge which is stupid on garuda, but hey, gotta make sure we slam all the popular picks up front to make sure nobody is excited anymore before we even launch.

All of the dislike, dissappointment, salt and disgust.  ALL OF IT.

Especially the MR 8 thing.  That's so so stupid for all the reasons.  Like it's not even a good decision, it's an inherently bad one... new players do not need MORE systems to confuse them and more power and more content to muck up the works, what they need is a discernable goal to work towards so they stick with the game.  This would have been it... but nope... gotta feed those 3 people that complained that they want to be MR 8 forever even though their dumb meme was funny once in 2015... better to cater to those 3 players than do what is healthy for the game... 



 

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18 hours ago, LTurmoil47 said:

 

3.) Valkyr has fallen farther into obsolecence with this, as Warcry is given to other warframes. Being outshined by Baruuk and a couple other warframes since the Melee 3.0 update, things for Valkyr have since sharply declined from what I have seen. When will we see her get fixed up and made valid again?

People salty that valkyr is more obscure should be clammoring for a rework, because half her kit is trash.

As a nidus main, I'm happy other people get larva even though it's the only skill you might consider using besides his passive except in one very specific scenario, and that's pre nerf, I know the only reason they are diminishing it is to hurt protea players, and that's stupid, because protea's guns are still less good than my one shot screen explode bramma.

The nerf choices here are frankly bad overall.  

They are knee jerk reacting and they don't even have any player data to go off of yet, let alone they apparently still haven't caught wind of breach surge/garuda, which is just going to be infinitely broken, but hey, that wasn't a popular choice so you know, no need to nerf that even though it's the most likely the most broken combo there is...

They just are doing the thing that DE always does:

Take a great idea, water it down, let it sit in the cold, and turn into grey mush and serve.  The end result ends up being the most mediocre thing possible and nobody is satisfied.  It's like their dev decisions are a monument to compromise for all the most vocal minorities... it's the medallion thing all over again, and it's bad game design and they WILL LOSE on this idea that WAS a sure fire home run and is now a cold and wet mush before it's even released.

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For me, those changes make me anxious.

I play this game since 7 years ago, and still playing at this one every weeks. I have 3k hours in the game, and it's always a pleasure to play at Warframe.
But with those changes, as I said, I'm anxious.

Why ? Because it the fcking first thing I'd always loved to obtain in this game. Ok for the moment we only get 1 ability, it's okay, that could be fun in the future to probably get 2 or 3 infused or subsumed.. I don't know.. w8 & see.

But why thoses nerf ? DE please I need an answer about this. Why nerf something even not released ? You like tease many new concepts / additional contents / etc ... But teasing something we which suspected (the nerf) about some abilities is not a good idea. Otherwise just wait to get something you're sure about before releasing any informations.

Otherwise, it's normal to balance those abilities while we even know their potential on some frames. But now you've choosed this way, I asking if there any interest to play with this system if it's to get any instant nerf at the start the 25th August.........

While this kind of content is a complete fan-service, nerfing before the release make us more anxious than anything.

Please, just make all iterations you need before any new nerf. In other case you'll lose many people with this error ...

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2 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

because they won't let you have a strong Roar?

Stop. Saying. This. Nobody is mad about a less powerful roar. We are mad they said they were going to buff weak abilities, and didn't. They added a very strong one to the list, and are surprised everyone wants to use it. I would rather it not be in the list so please gtfo with this dumb strawman argument that people are crying about not doing the max damage. I would rather have support abilities than boring damage boost abilities which I only use in normal play for leveling weapons and boss fights.

Edit: I want energy economy on Mesa. I want a heal on Chroma. I want teleport on a ton of frames that are not Ash. I want movement or enemy grouping on Inaros. I already planned to use ensnare over larva because I don't like the idea of infested abilities on Inaros. RP was more important to me than additional range. But yes, I'm crying about not enough roar damage. Jfc stfu.

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1 hour ago, Methanoid said:

you act like DE can't nerf Roar to the point where it is no longer godlike

It isn't godlike now. Do you know what is more than the 0% damage boost you get from most of these abilities? Literally any number. They can nerf roar to a 5% boost, and, whoa, guess what, that is still more than 0%. People will choose it over most other abilities which grant a 0% boost as long as those other abilities continue to offer nothing of value.

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In times like these, the helpful comments go a long way. I mentioned making it up to the community earlier and wanted to point to something specific. Generally investing time and your vision into the clan/alliance systems and inter-connectivity within the community will keep it going forever. Meeting places, tasks that involve our direct in-game companions and hopefully a *booster for running with them. If you really want to lower it to MR 8, OK 
 

BUT

Empower clans
*cough Dojo Foundry 😉

P.S Personal Retrospective: 
Evolving on the original clan Operator uplink system, I figure it a justification for involving Quill Onkko, Little Duck and ____ in setting up Operator Uplink. We're talking about upgrades that could very well be cutscenes in the sense that it will take time and resources like everything else. A clan foundry serves the practical purpose of allowing you to claim and initiate builds without leaving the dojo- integrating beautifully with the existing trade system.
Other ideas for the  system involve the clan bounties/missions/nightwave. If clan members hit a certain kill goal...simaris captures... you name it really. Once a week we can hit a new goal and you can set up 25 different goals in the background, not expand on it and let it rock for a year without revisiting or updating it to full effect- honestly. A reward for every clan member and a nice chunk in the vault. Goes so far in-game it'll blow everybody's mind- ignore the naysayer's!
A teeny booster for running with any clan member or alliance member would be totally sweet and it'd be so sweet I won't even offer up how much or if it stax.
An in-game Clan Registry for us to see what clans are out there and if they're recruiting and whatnot would make all this easier for everyone all the time.
???IGNIS WRAITH BP???
???SOLAR RAILS???

BECAUSE ULTIMATELY
The Helminth system isn't that deep and new players can fend for themselves. It would be a lot easier if they had someone to help along the way, and empower them. Currently MR 8 is the the threshold and reworked new player experience cannot possibly ignore the influence of clan membership. Implementing this wouldn't feel like an update to most of us, but redemption, renewal, and perseverance.  


 

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1 hour ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I would rather have roar at quarter of its value over Rhino skill 1 or 4. And Iron Skin was never going to go in the pool to begin with. Also, they have not created a problem, since the skill is not implemented yet. 

Lmao no kidding, really? That is exactly the problem. Thank you for understanding the point. They cannot possibly nerf roar to the any point where it is not the overwhelming choice. It needs to go.
 

Quote

Does a frame like chroma use skills 1 or 4? No. Roar at full value (assuming 200% intensity) will double your damage. How is this not power creep?

Because they already said:

"As you can see, we have two Abilities that increase damage: Mirage’s Eclipse, and Rhino’s Roar. We are creating a special case for these Abilities when infused on Warframes with similar Abilities (i.e Chroma, Mirage, Rhino, Octavia). When you infuse these, you will receive a prompt that you can only have 1 Damage Buffing ability at a time, and thus you are limited to replacing said ability type."

Funny, maybe they should just, I dunno, remove those two abilities. Problem solved.

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3 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

How does it curb power creep? You can still get the same abilities via other squad members.

Yes, it requires other people in your squad to have a Rhino in your team.

Not anymore. Now you can play anything and still have access to it.

And that doesn't come off as powercreep to you?

2 hours ago, Nox_Terminus said:

You don't need to buff everything up to Roar's level, you just have to make them actually useful. If it isn't possible to fix them they should be replaced with another ability from that Warframe.

More damage is a boring option, and in most cases its not even necessary.

Most players I've seen in public matchmaking are rolling press-4-to-win frames. It doesn't matter how much you buff the bad skills, they will never be taken by Mesa, Saryn, Ember, Volt, and Equinox over something that provides a multiplicative strength buff.

If more damage was boring, I'd be seeing far less of them than I do every single day. On the contrary, I'll be seeing them more now that they can double their DPS with one ability.

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5 hours ago, ChaoticEdge said:

until if my view is right then you got the right to complain.

Then complain after you are correct...Don't keep doing it beforehand.

Or you can be like me and only do it to get rid of crap skills/skills I don't use/ skills I am willing to lose which means anything you replace it with is a bonus anyway.

That's if I use it at all...

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