The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Pizzarugi]

1 minute ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

This is why Rhino is here and he is getting robbed. Now every frame can do his job and then the job whatever frame you put it on natively do. Have you thought of Wisp? Have you thought of Nezha who can even ward objectives and companions?

Whats the point of playing Rhino anymore?

Exactly. Rhino can't even be a desirable support frame anymore to provide buffs now that everyone can have it.

He's still good for Iron Skin, but honestly, I'm pretty sure Revenant's Mesmer Skin has it beat. Stomp may also still be desirable, but there's other frames that can lock down enemies just as effectively if not better (ex. Limbo's Cataclysm).

[IRVoidGuru]

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You didn't need Helminth for Steel Path right now. What makes you think you would now that you have it😛

The reason nobody cares is because there's no incentive to run it. Enemies are 100 levels higher, they get +250% increased life and defense, and what do you get for the effort? Just some cosmetics and maybe access to another Kuva farm?

The fact that you still care about rewards tells me enough. I stand by the opinion of, if you think roar was too powerful for this. Or any power on the list in general. Then maybe this system isn't for you. Go finish collecting the rest of the game and come back to me when you play it for fun and not prizes.

Quote

Most people are still going to be in normal mode, getting the same rewards in Steel Path, for a lot less effort.

I play on public matchmaking and I've yet to join any teams or have others join mine in the Steel Path missions I've done (granted it's only been a handful so far). In normal mode, making or joining an existing team was constant.

You being able to tackle Steel Path doesn't make you very experienced. Slapping on mods capable of melting enemies doesn't make you experienced.

You being unwilling to do steel path. For team reasons or reward reasons certainly doesn't speak to the experience of you as a player.

 

20 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

Is your idea of an experienced player the fact that you can kill enemies on the 7th Wave of Hydron? 
 

*Normal Hydron btw.

my idea of an experienced players is one who has tried every frame type with at least one forma. And a small handful of weapons beyond popular choice.

A player who experiments with builds and build math to understand the system as a whole.

Or a player who Fully Understands half of this list. (Sadly not many ways to prove you know these things)

Forma, what it does.and the willingness to use it

Crit system.

Every status proc and type.

Status conversion.

How strength, range and duration affect every single warframe.(warframe attributes.)

Loadouts. Using every item in the loadout together intelligently.

Knowing enemies weakness on sight(learned in codex)and armor calculation method.

Damage Reduction and armor values.(EHP calculation). 

Map layouts and movement systems.

The damage calculation math for all weapons in warframe.

[iSiawPrime]

1 minute ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Or a player who Fully Understands half of this list. (Sadly not many ways to prove you know these things)

Not even DE understand the list, I can see 2+ abilities way stronger than Roar and 1 that could trivialize parts of the game not even talked about and I’m sure they’ll keep on nerfing stuff until everything is garbage.

[Pizzarugi]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

The fact that you still care about rewards tells me enough. I stand by the opinion of, if you think roar was too powerful for this. Or any power on the list in general. Then maybe this system isn't for you. Go finish collecting the rest of the game and come back to me when you play it for fun and not prizes.

I can complete it and it would still not change my opinion. And hell, if I came back after doing so and still have the same opinion, you wouldn't care anyway.

I enjoy playing this game on public matchmaking. In almost every mission I run in normal mode, I can find people to play with. I've yet to find a team or have people join me in Steel Path missions. Could it be because the enemies are tougher and there's no reward to encourage people to engage in this content?

Sorry, but "challenge" is not a good reason to do something.

I'm not discrediting the content, I should add. If you want to feel challenged and fight tough enemies for the same rewards you'd find in normal mode, cool. You do you. However, Steel Path is not a benchmark we should be using when few people have interest in doing it.

[Culaio]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

This is why Rhino is here and he is getting robbed. Now every frame can do his job and then the job whatever frame you put it on natively do. Have you thought of Wisp? Have you thought of Nezha who can even ward objectives and companions?

Whats the point of playing Rhino anymore? Please don't say Index.

you do know that well made rhino has higher survavibility then inaros, 1mln armor is no joke, not to mention immunity to status and being unable to be knocked down, yes it needs more micromanagment but guess what helminth system can make it easier, larva would pair really well with Ironclad Charge, but you dont actually need larva to do this, you can use operator anomaly arcane that also pulls all enemies around into single place.

Rhino has one more significant advantage  for using roar that no other frame would have: the fact that you can use helmith unique ability empower to boost roar buff, only rhino can do it since you can only change ONE ability, so if another frame gets roar then they cant use empower, also empower can boost iron skin.

 

You need to start thinking outside of box.

[iSiawPrime]

9 minutes ago, Culaio said:

you can use helmith unique ability empower to boost roar buff, only rhino can do it since you can only change ONE ability

DE : We added rules to empower to prevent the overwhelming choice on Rhino.

[IRVoidGuru]

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I can complete it and it would still not change my opinion. And hell, if I came back after doing so and still have the same opinion, you wouldn't care anyway.

We shall see should that happen.

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

I enjoy playing this game on public matchmaking. In almost every mission I run in normal mode, I can find people to play with. I've yet to find a team or have people join me in Steel Path missions. Could it be because the enemies are tougher and there's no reward to encourage people to engage in this content?

My previous point comes back now. Being unwilling to do something due to external circumstances (other players/rewards) doesn't speak to your experience as a player. Out of the many experienced players i know I have never heard them speak about rewards in such a high regard. It seems you should build experience and resources/rewards in easy mode till your content. Then join us in the better game mode when you are ready for it. Don't rush it if its not for you yet.

24 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

Sorry, but "challenge" is not a good reason to do something.

I'm not discrediting the content, I should add. If you want to feel challenged and fight tough enemies for the same rewards you'd find in normal mode, cool. You do you. However, Steel Path is not a benchmark we should be using when few people have interest in doing it.

You're not incorrect about doing something just for challenge. But considering this is a video game and we are all openly making the choice to have fun rather then do something with our lives. Does reason seem that useful to people like that?

Steel path is for sure a benchmark we should be using. Low and intermediate players will catch on to it eventually. Or fall behind.

[Pizzarugi]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

My previous point comes back now. Being unwilling to do something due to external circumstances (other players/rewards) doesn't speak to your experience as a player. Out of the many experienced players i know I have never heard them speak about rewards in such a high regard. It seems you should build experience and resources/rewards in easy mode till your content.

How exactly does my playing on Steel Path improve my odds of finding people to match up with?

In fact, how does anything you said improve my odds of finding people to match up with in Steel Path?

I'm willing to play Steel Path, but nobody else is as evidenced by the fact I've not once matched up with a team or had people join my own. Nothing you said is going to encourage more people to engage in it.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

You're not incorrect about doing something just for challenge. But considering this is a video game and we are all openly making the choice to have fun rather then do something with our lives. Does reason seem that useful to people like that?

If I want to play a game for challenge sake, I would not be playing a horde-based looter-shooter like Warframe. I'd be playing a PvP game.

10 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Steel path is for sure a benchmark we should be using. Low and intermediate players will catch on to it eventually. Or fall behind.

How so? How does not engaging in Steel Path, which only offers cosmetics and a Kuva farm, impact "low and intermediate" players? How exactly are they going to fall behind?

If DE adds more content that requires Steel Path completion, you may have a point. However, I doubt that they will without creating a massive S#&$storm of complaints.

[iSiawPrime]

6 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

In fact, how does anything you said improve my odds of finding people to match up with in Steel Path?

May I ask why do you need to find people to play in SP? Wouldn’t it be better to use Mesa and destroy everything without the need to aim?

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

6 minutes ago, Culaio said:

you do know that well made rhino has higher survavibility then inaros, 1mln armor is no joke, not to mention immunity to status and being unable to be knocked down, yes it needs more micromanagment but guess what helminth system can make it easier, larva would pair really well with Ironclad Charge, but you dont actually need larva to do this, you can use operator anomaly arcane that also pulls all enemies around into single place.

Rhino has one more significant advantage  for using roar that no other frame would have: the fact that you can use helmith unique ability empower to boost roar buff, only rhino can do it since you can only change ONE ability, so if another frame gets roar then they cant use empower, also empower can boost iron skin.

 

You need to start thinking outside of box.

You missed my point. Every frame now can do his job which is buff everyone with a multiplicative buff, THAT is his main contribution to any squad.

Now every frame can do it, it does not matter if Rhino can have the highest Roar - his role in the team is already been fulfilled even with a 100% Roar, you are already effectively doubling everyone and everythings damage. Wisp can fulfill even more than Rhino now via her Reservoirs and can even keep Roar'ing much easier because her energy pool is double of Rhino's.

Let me ask you again, Why would I use Rhino when his job in the team has already been fulfilled? CC? There's frames out there just as good if not better. (Ex. Nezha's Spears or as someone said, Limbo's Cataclysm.)

Roar is literally a role-defining talent which has no place being transferable freely at all let alone being on the same list of options as things like Airburst or Mind Control.
 

[ChaoticEdge]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

"Better" is subjective and players rarely advocate for ideas that are balanced.

Which is funny because the folks advocating for broken abilities are frequently the same ones pitching fits about balance and difficulty.

It's insane.

plz, say that the dev making the void almost like a "doctor who" show mix mash of timeline or so on sorts in the list in line.  Paradox is more chaotic and the insanity never ends there. As again everyone maybe wrong or neither in the in the right.  This is how perspectives view get fooled for anyone can say sweet honey words just like how Tom Howard honey word his way to millions of ppl about Fallout 76.

[Pizzarugi]

6 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

May I ask why do you need to find people to play in SP? Wouldn’t it be better to use Mesa and destroy everything without the need to aim?

For starters, I don't play Mesa.

Secondly, I like playing public matchmaking because I enjoy the teamwork. Way back in the day before we had nuke frames trivializing the game, teamwork was crucial. Trinity was a very welcome frame to have in the team as she provided healing and energy when the game had an energy economy and players can't heal themselves with Magus Repair, so was Rhino and his Iron Skin to draw aggro off of us and the objective. Nyx? She was actually valuable a long time ago with her Chaos.

I like helping others, whether by being Revenant and tanking everything or just rezzing someone while they're down. I can't help anyone if I can't find anyone to match with or if there's no one playing the content to join my team.

[DustyToast]

I'm an MR13 and I was completely fine with the Helminth System being MR15, that seemed fair, and it made Mastery Ranks actually feel worth getting 

But then the decision was made to debuff the stronger abilities?? Then make it MR8??? 

If you wanted to make other warframe abilites look as appealing as the ones debuffed, why not just buff them?? Maybe the Helminth mutates the ability or smthing 

And why MR8??? This isn't late game content anymore, it just adds more things newer players have to crunch through.

If you keep debuffing these abilities, what's the point of even adding them??? 

[-Augustus-]

12 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

For starters, I don't play Mesa.

It shows.

[Culaio]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

You missed my point. Every frame now can do his job which is buff everyone with a multiplicative buff, THAT is his main contribution to any squad.

Now every frame can do it, it does not matter if Rhino can have the highest Roar - his role in the team is already been fulfilled even with a 100% Roar, you are already effectively doubling everyone and everythings damage. Wisp can fulfill even more than Rhino now via her Reservoirs and can even keep Roar'ing much easier because her energy pool is double of Rhino's.

Let me ask you again, Why would I use Rhino when his job in the team has already been fulfilled? CC? There's frames out there just as good if not better. (Ex. Nezha's Spears or as someone said, Limbo's Cataclysm.)

Roar is literally a role-defining talent which has no place being transferable freely at all let alone being on the same list of options as things like Airburst or Mind Control.
 

what exactly is stoping you from installing other abiltiies like CC on rhino ? yes other frames will be better at CC but same way rhino will always be better at buffing, so tell me what is stoping you from putting larva or Lull on rhino ?

[Pizzarugi]

5 minutes ago, -Augustus- said:

It shows.

I have played with and brought both normal and prime to MR30. I know how the frame functions and I know it's a nuke frame.

What's your point? Just because she may not be able to trivialize Steel Path (which is a good thing) doesn't mean she isn't broken in the rest of the game that actually matters.

You think Roar not being helpful for her in Steel Path means Roar is not going to make her more broken everywhere else?

[IRVoidGuru]

26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How exactly does my playing on Steel Path improve my odds of finding people to match up with?

In fact, how does anything you said improve my odds of finding people to match up with in Steel Path?

I'm willing to play Steel Path, but nobody else is as evidenced by the fact I've not once matched up with a team or had people join my own. Nothing you said is going to encourage more people to engage in it.

You seem very unwilling to play with out a team. If you are unwilling to do missions without a team then it seems to be that exactly which sets you behind.

26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

If I want to play a game for challenge sake, I would not be playing a horde-based looter-shooter like Warframe. I'd be playing a PvP game.

And if you want an unchallenging game then why would any of the Helminth changes make anything worse? And don't say team play. You can make your teams instead of using public.

26 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

How so? How does not engaging in Steel Path, which only offers cosmetics and a Kuva farm, impact "low and intermediate" players? How exactly are they going to fall behind?

If DE adds more content that requires Steel Path completion, you may have a point. However, I doubt that they will without creating a massive S#&$storm of complaints.

So you want steel path to have more rewards but if it had more content locked behind it ppl would complain? 

Seems you are on a lot of sides in this debate.

The fact that you're unwilling to progress in steel path without a team is the exact reason that it's a benchmark. Showing the willing from the the unwilling and the capable from the incapable.

[Culaio]

57 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

DE : We added rules to empower to prevent the overwhelming choice on Rhino.

lets hope it wont happen, because if it will then DE should probably scrap the whole system, because there will always be choices clearly superior, if we cant get buff then people will go for survavibility or CC

[iSiawPrime]

17 minutes ago, Pizzarugi said:

You think Roar not being helpful for her in Steel Path means Roar is not going to make her more broken everywhere else?

Mesa trivializes low lv content confirmed. Better nerf her like Ember.

[Pizzarugi]

53 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

You seem very unwilling to play with out a team. If you are unwilling to do missions without a team then it seems to be that exactly which sets you behind.

Because, as I've said several times before, I enjoy teamwork. I can easily do Steel Path on my own. That's not the point.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

And if you want an unchallenging game then why would any of the Helminth changes make anything worse?

I never said I wanted the opposite. I said if I want a challenging game for challenge's sake, I wouldn't be playing this. Steel Path is all challenge for challenge's sake and it shows, judging by the lack of other people playing it.

You could make normal content challenging by nerfing everything that trivializes it. There's no reason to have added Steel Path which is more or less a symptom of powercreep going out of control. The Helminth system, adding those 6 now-nerfed abilities specifically, is contributing to this problem.

Now we have people using a mode nobody cares about to justify why things should be broken when they never should've been in the first place. DE just foisted this upon us and said "There, now you have a bigger, but emptier sandbox to play with your big toys. Now stop complaining that the game is too easy." They did this because they can't take away their big toys without them screaming about it, and nobody wants to admit it which is why nobody is playing in said empty sandbox.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

So you want steel path to have more rewards but if it had more content locked behind it ppl would complain? 

Seems you are on a lot of sides in this debate.

No, I've been consistent in this. I want DE to add more incentive to Steel Path because it encourages people to engage in it more. I win, because now I have people to team up with and may finally enjoy oldschool teamwork.

However, every time they've added challenging content, people complained loudly enough that they nerfed it. If you add more rewards to Steel Path, more people may be encouraged to engage in it. However, if you force people to engage in Steel Path by locking future content behind it, they're going to raise a massive stink until DE nerfs it.

53 minutes ago, (PS4)IrOrphanCrippler said:

Showing the willing from the the unwilling and the capable from the incapable.

It should be dividing the capable from the incapable. I'm capable, and seeing other people outperform me in teams without nuke frames, I'm sure most others are capable too.

Now they just need a reason to be willing to do it.

[Dragan__]

People are already crying about this without even seeing any numbers.

The Helminth isnt the only thing getting released in this update by the way and we all know you will still grind the S#&$ out of the Necralisk.

[Zilotz]

3 hours ago, Pizzarugi said:

Right, giving frames like Saryn or Mesa with 200%+ power strength double damage by having Roar totally isn't powercreep... 🙄

It isn't a powercreep, actually for Saryn it is a risky move that can cost easily all spore damage.

For Mesa it will not be anything bigger than having a Rhino nearby.

[Opyt]

On 2020-08-20 at 3:31 PM, 2ndPersonPlural said:

There's no reason for every power, or even every frame, to be competitive with each other.  This is a PvE game.

----

I think MR 8 is too soon for subsuming.  Maybe 12-14.

You're missing the point RE: abilities being competitive with one another.  DE is nerfing Roar, Eclipse, etc. because they are overwhelmingly the better choices (though with a lot of frames it might be a choice between not using the system altogether versus using it for one ability).  DE has decided they need to be competitive, it was not necessarily the player base.  Of course the players are going to compare them in a game that has people devoted to running all 3 eidolons 5 times in a single night.  DE wants things to be used roughly equally (as we saw with the Catchmoon and Cryophon "nerfs", because the Catchmoon was overwhelmingly the secondary-of-choice since nothing was competing with it.  The Cryophon was overwhelmingly the weapon of choice on railjacks at launch of it because they could kill the enemies in one or two shots.  Now the fall off on the Cryophon is ridiculous (1000m, in a game mode where the distance to targets changes as quickly as 50 meters a second). 

That particular problem isn't exclusive with the players.

[(PSN)Po_Lod7]

1 hour ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

Not even DE understand the list, I can see 2+ abilities way stronger than Roar and 1 that could trivialize parts of the game not even talked about and I’m sure they’ll keep on nerfing stuff until everything is garbage.

Lol precisely I was surprised no one really talked about 1 particular ability. Ppl just like big damage numbers. 

[(PSN)Seratronix]

On 2020-08-19 at 2:24 PM, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

Were the changes made to incentivize plat/frame/booster purchases toward new and lower MR players?