The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[RivaAurelius]

4 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

of course not! we all knowthat you are all wrong! there's a reason why loki is called master race, and its because of decoy!

As a wukong main I am insulted, sir! 

[iSiawPrime]

18 minutes ago, vanaukas said:

Every ability should be weaker than the regular imho, but nice changes.

I agree with this statement, let’s make Decoy weaker.

#DecoyTooOPNerfPlz

[dwqrf]

Guys ; Look at our mod pool. We don't use 90% of them. Look at the focus tools. Look at the maps. There is a lot of content we don't use. Look at the weapons, Heck, look at the Warframes. We don't use everything; period. Content > No content. Choices. Among everything that's handed to us, we create a Meta. Always.

Can you look at the bright side and understand that with the Helminth CHrysalis, we will be able to REMOVE those spells from the warframes and put something better suited for the build. That's great. Thanks DE.

[Keyhound]

2 minutes ago, (NSW)Siaw said:

I agree with this statement, let’s make Decoy weaker.

#DecoyTooOPNerfPlz

but decoy already is a nerfed version of decoy...

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

Reminder to replace Roar with Charge. Ty

[Hawk197]

Just now, dwqrf said:

Guys ; Look at our mod pool. We don't use 90% of them. Look at the focus tools. Look at the maps. There is a lot of content we don't use. Look at the weapons, Heck, look at the Warframes. We don't use everything; period. Content > No content. Choices. Among everything that's handed to us, we create a Meta. Always.

Can you look at the bright side and understand that with the Helminth CHrysalis, we will be able to REMOVE those spells from the warframes and put something better suited for the build. That's great. Thanks DE.

Not all content is created equal. I remember back in the day when we had Ability Mods. Yeah, Abilities were once mods that you had to slot onto your Warframe if you wanted access to that ability. Back in my day, we goofy builds that had no ability mods, all survival mods, and we would run in swinging our Skanas like it was the best build ever. DE didn't like that I guess, so they just tied the abilities to the Warframe itself, removed 2 mod slots and called it good. Even today, we can just ignore that ability. Ask any Inaros player how many times they use abilities in a game. I can tell you from my time playing him, I build up my Armor with 4, cast 1 to finisher enemies and regain all my health, and I'm good.

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

How long do I have to wait until the bugs in my game are fixed. Until now, I have not received the personal quarters segment from ODIS. I have repeated the quest the war within how many times but still haven't gotten it please. What should I do to be able to complete the Sacrifice quest. Please respond to my problem, this is the warframe

[RivaAurelius]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Takemikazuci23 said:

How long do I have to wait until the bugs in my game are fixed. Until now, I have not received the personal quarters segment from ODIS. I have repeated the quest the war within how many times but still haven't gotten it please. What should I do to be able to complete the Sacrifice quest. Please respond to my problem, this is the warframe

Did you get the segment in your inbox? 

[kevoisvevo]

45 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

Then what would be the point? And some abilities literally cannot get weaker. 

The point is the principle. It's either all okay to nerf or none of it's okay to nerf. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Forget even trying to balance this system by nerfs. DE better buff the useless abilities more. Otherwise there are dozen more strong abilities that people will move to after the 1st 6 subsumed ability nerf. This is the same principle as nerfing primed mods on primed weapons. It doesn't make sense.

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

I haven't got anything in the inbox until this second

[RivaAurelius]

Just now, (PS4)Takemikazuci23 said:

I haven't got anything in the inbox until this second

Have you tried opening a support ticket? 

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

How many times have you not received it

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

When I complete the mission. I went straight to options. Go to Gameplay and Go to Analyze Network, it still doesn't have inbox, I have time to restart my PS4 and the results are still the same. I was tired of completing that mission but still couldn't get the inbox from Odis that gave the personal quarters segment rewerd

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Takemikazuci23 said:

When I complete the mission. I went straight to options. Go to Gameplay and Go to Analyze Network, it still doesn't have inbox, I have time to restart my PS4 and the results are still the same. I was tired of completing that mission but still couldn't get the inbox from Odis that gave the personal quarters segment rewerd

I would recommend opening a support ticket. 

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

I only ask that the warframe send the personal quarters segment to my inbox, no more so that I feel calm playing the game and not feel curious about the storyline

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

Support ticket? How can you please help me. I don't really understand that problem

[(PSN)Takemikazuci23]

If what you mean to report the ps4 bug I have done it many times but there is no response and no answer

[RivaAurelius]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Takemikazuci23 said:

Support ticket? How can you please help me. I don't really understand that problem

https://digitalextremes.zendesk.com/hc/en-us Click on the option to submit a request and then give them the appropriate information. Good luck, I hope your problem gets solved soon. 

[Leown_Kitrinos]

So after thinking about it for a while now.

 

I commented on page like 120 or whatever. That I was disappointed and not excited anymore. I'd like to take back half of that. Not in a sense of omg I feel bad. But there is content coming. And I like to put some thought towards the content and future content to be changed or added to actually add and see if the community itself wants to move forward in a similar way.

 

In hopes I make a comment here there could possible discussions in the future on this subject.

 

This system is going to be fun regardless of the nerfs. I do however think still it should be brought back to the drawing board in a way cause I don't think Warframe abilities should be transferrable right now. I think having Helmnith abilities are good enough at this time maybe a couple more added down the line.

 

I say this cause.. right now. Warframes are receiving works mostly when a new skin comes out or a prime comes or.. when the community screams enough about endangerment of a species lmao. And the whole nerfs inbound and not great of buff additions.. really screams some thing needs to happen...

 

But warframes don't need those reworks fully just yet. Maybe a couple do to keep up with the current pace I can think of a few. But warframes as a whole. Need a straight buffing across the board. Warframe abilities need true damage hits and more scaling in damage. Some frames needs a simple tweak of adding armor tear or shield depletion to keep up or add more utilities to team comps that are falling behind. Simple number tweaks or additions to really make some warframes shine like they used to. Then the frames that need to be mechanically changed for the pace of changing combat. They can do that without being bombarded by "No this frame needs it more then that frame" a good chunk of the time.

 

As for the MR req. I'm still against the changes to it. New players have 40+ frames to chew through to see what they like. How many weapons. The star chart, PoE, Fortuna, Railjack, they have a lot already. But that's not my soul reason to say the MR req needs to be put back. This is one of the few things that was actually set behind a higher MR that involved some decent upcoming content. Players need that drive. Honestly. If it was kept. This would be a great step towards making player goals and meshing the new player and old player communities. Instead of them being against each other half the time. There can be a better mentor system in place that rewards both players for participating with each other on missions weekly or daily. There can be new content or returning content like raids(whenever this happens) that can have set MR limitations when content comes out.

As far as this goes I hope this is seen or discussed on further. As much as i don't like some changes I'm pretty sure I'll find it fun. See what I can break.

[master_of_destiny]

2 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Hasn't that been the case from the beginning, though? Buying frames, I mean? As for the Xiphos, Hema, and Sibear, yeah, that grind is bad, but it's important to remember not one of those items is actually useful for anything. One is literally just a loading screen skin, the other two are completely useless weapons. You could conceivably use Hema with Chroma for the meme, but in practice it's far faster to just get shot. People whine for endgame content, and you know what? These are endgame content. They are a long-term goal for players who have literally everything else, and they provide nothing other than the ability to brag that you have them.

What do you mean, "now"? Forma was introduced back in 2013, a month after the launch of the game, so requiring multiple 30-level grinds to max out gear is nothing new. Umbral forma is just a normal forma with a different polarity, so that's a lateral move, not a change for the worse. Exilus adapters don't require ranking the equipment again, and aura forma actually reduces grind by eliminating the need to re-rank the frame every time you want to change your aura. Your examples basically boil down to a bunch of non-changes and a grind reduction.

Rivens are not required at all, even for Steel Path, but they are the only endgame content that actually has a gameplay purpose.

Maxing out Kuva weapons is very grindy, yes, but you get bugger all for it. No build requires them to be anywhere near fully ranked, and you get a measly 200 MR points per forma. See the above point about endgame content that exists purely for bragging rights.

New resources have to be introduced so that people have a reason to play the game, and yes, it results in complaints about grind. If you could just buy everything new instantly with your giant stockpiles of alloy plates and nanospores, the complaints would be about content drought and having nothing to do. It's a no-win situation.

Let's discuss the problems I have with your analysis.  Your welcome to disagree, but if you do there's likely a fundamental perspective difference that will be unlikely to be bridged.

 

Xiphos provides actual gameplay.  You can choose to craft an item that allows for a different effect.  It's the same logic as the Nightwave skin being the last thing to get from the most recent Nightwave series.  It isn't great or game breaking, but it is content.  It is also locked behind sub 1% drop chances on a find all three caches challenge.  Just calculating the drop chances, it's literal months of grinding to get all three pieces to construct.

It's funny that you don't care about the Hema and Sibear.  Funny in that you seem to not place any value in things unless they're great items.  The inherent value in both is content to grind and fodder for mastery rank even if they aren't your daily choice.  What's the endgame?  The difference between getting more trace capacity, initial mod capacity, warframe loadout slots, and the ability to get 1000 more syndicate standing a day.  It's not huge, but is definitely valuable.

 

 

My point about now is that there was a time without forma.  There was a much longer time without the exilus slots, pexilus slots, and umbral forma.  The issue is that we've gotten constant creep up, and increasing costs.  I still remember a time when I could stick every mod I wanted on a gun with either a single or no forma.  It was a simpler time, but the point is power crept up, mod cost crept up, and instead of balancing things we got shiny new forma.  It's the duct tape fix of warframe, now so embedded into the game that it's just assumed you need 3-4 forma added to anything great.  More grind, a bit more power, but most frustratingly each optimized weapon is a much bigger resource sink.  Don't worry though, you can buy a catalyst, forma, pexilus adapter, and an affinity booster to get that thing to maximum power.  It's just not great that DE creates the problem of needing all of the stuff, then sells us a purchase or insane grind to actually make it useful.  They're selling us a fix to a problem they caused.

 

Rivens are endgame.  They are the only endgame.  They are RNG based, so you can't get a perfect roll.  They're awarded based on RNG, so you can't choose a desired weapon.  On top of all of this, DE can constantly monkey with them to balance to usage outcomes rather than objective power.  Literally nothing else in this game functions as such.  It's not about their usage in a single game mode, it's about them being the only rewarding thing to do after you've gotten everything else.  For the record, grinding for stuff to sell for platinum isn't a game feature, it's an admission that one grind is preferred over the grind required to overcome the RNG in other modes.  

 

For Kuva weapons see above.  The benefit is MR.  If you don't value it, then DE isn't using the progression.  My entire point was MR is sunk time and not skill, but that the MR levels themselves have extrinsic rewards which make them worth pursuing to decrease grind in other areas.  An example, syndicate medallions.  Max out the rank daily with missions and an insignia, and then get the medallions.  Come release date for the new content you can have literal thousands of medallions to trade in and immediately accumulate relics.  With a boat load of relics in hand you don't have to grind through missions, only grind through fissures.  This is how you get access to primes 3.5 days after launch, instead of 4 days to a week.

 

Regarding the requirement for new resources...are you kidding me?  Can you think of no other system which might already exist in warframe?  Well Dirac is railjack endo.  You unlock capacity not by leveling up and forma, but by getting an RNG drop and applying Dirac to upgrade a slot.  It's basically RNG forma and endo but for a new system.  Fine.  Let's look at other things done in the past:

Rebuild the relay - Tremba essence and a material make a new resource.  New resource is donated to get rewards.

Argon - Finite resource that decays.

Beacons - Remember when Hek was a boss you needed to grind beacons to unlock.  Pepridge farm remembers.  I do to, and haven't sold them off yet.

Mutagen Mass/Detonite Injector/Fieldron - Drop pieces, buy bp from dojo, build resource.

Javlok Capacitor - Accumulate thousands because only one item uses them period.

Do you see a pattern?  DE pumps out stuff, then forgets about it.  That's not gameplay, and it isn't good game design.  My point is that using endo on avionics would not have been rocket science.  Maybe keep the dirac, but if it drops less frequently and is used in both the railjack slot upgrades and potentially research for tenno components so it doesn't just lose its value once slots are unlocked.  Maybe instead of more hexanon, an item used in Jupiter content then forgotten, you introduce one new thing and then tie in the old.  A good example would be heat based railjack weapons not using 4 railjack exclusive resources, but one railjack farm and three resources found on the regular map to tie the thing to older systems.  Nope, Railjack requires resources that exist only in railjack.  This neatly provides the content island borders.  Yes, new resources are a good way to prevent immediate content consumption, but they aren't a good excuse when you can incorporate them more organically by using disparate resources to encourage players to engage in other content.

[uberfu]

[DE]Rebecca:

"Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.
_____________________________________________

Except for when high MR players take low MR players into the missions with them, get the unlock early on. Because that never happens.

 

 

 

[DE]Rebecca:

Who is this for?
We consider this a customization system for very experienced Warframe players (Mastery Rank 15 8 Prerequisite). We do not intend to let newer players unlock this system. We intentionally placed the Segment deep into progression to ensure only experienced players could access the Segment and begin their journey with Helminth.
_____________________________________________

Also of note -- how does DE claim a new system for "experienced players" and set the minimum MR to 8?  This makes no sense.  The original MR 15 barrier was more in line with "experienced players".  A new player can level up a half dozen frames and similar gear without putting in much effort, much less learning the game (experience). Seems more like pressure from the purse strings to make new releases more compatible with more players than catering to longer term players. That was a dictated decison on the MR drop change, 15 to 8 is roughly 50% requriement reduction, the devs didn't build out a system for higher level players (like the Kuva Fortress) then think "oh hey, we should consider the "experienced new players" and the MR is too high so let's divide by 2 and that should be a nice round number.

CHANGE THE WORDING becauswe Experienced Players and MR 8 are not an equivalent.

 

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, DeusTurbo said:

I already understand that MR is not a measure of skill or ability, but I think it is important to lock systems like these that have huge ramifications on player experience behind MR because a higher MR player has had more time in the game to learn and understand how it works, and so they will be able to utilise it more fully. Mastery rank is a measure of the time and resources you have put into this game, and how committed you have been to it. Higher MR SHOULD be rewarded, because it shows you have been committed to this game. What insentive does anyone have to get to MR20+? None. There are no mechanics or systems that reward that kind of dedication. I actually think MR15 is too LOW for this kind of system, as they expressly said it was to reward veterans. 

As for why they nerfed stuff like Larva, I could be fully convinced at this point that it was too ruin our fun. I feel they nerfed Larva because of how well it could have functioned on a frame like Protea. I think if they had chosen to buff the poorer abilities, there would be none of this heat right now.

There are rewards for MRs beyond 16.  At that point you no longer get access to new rivens, or new weapons, but you do get convenience.  How so?  Well:

Warframe Loadouts

Void Trace capacity

Default mod capacity

Syndicate standing capacity

 

Let's look at that MR 8 player versus MR 15.  The MR 8 can't even apply a full serration without a catalyst.  They'll see benefits after level 8, but that initial grind for content is going to be not so fun.  Likewise on the grind to unlock the syndicate, so you can even purchase things.  While it isn't as game changing as access to weapons, it is largely convenience and decreased forced walls.

 

Now, is MR 15 really too low?  I'm going to say no.  30% of potential MR sources places you pretty squarely in control of most aspects in warframe.  The 25% mark in this game is where I draw the line between basic experience and experienced enough to monkey with fundamental systems.  I agree that the 10% number is far too low, but if we substantially increase it from 30% there's got to be compelling reasons to care.

I cite compelling reasons, as a longer version of "fun."  I believe that DE is nerfing this to try and balance the reward versus time invested, and their decrease in this is why it appears they are sucking out fun.  While I disagree on the motive, the endgame is they are killing the fun by requiring that nothing in the system is truly powerful.  I also suggest that their decision of powers is stupid, and if they removed some of these powers it'd fix things without the nerfs.

[selig_fay]

24 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, is MR 15 really too low? 

Yes. It should be mr35. 😏

[(XBOX)Th3BelovedSaint]

On 2020-08-22 at 4:00 PM, Opyt said:

Buffing abilities would be fixing the problem.

That would be too much like work! Dont want to get any of THAT on you! 😄

[IGN_Maverick]

35 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Rather less than happy with how @[de]steve responded given that context.

Dude at this point I can only tell you guys are pushing it a little bit too much. Every company has a structure. Those guys, even if they are the direct responsible for this mess, cannot address the issue of a forum post directly. The feedback has to be filtered by other people that are paid for that, and they need to receive the feedback polished and ready to use.

And this was my optimistic statement.

In reality I think they won't give a flying #*!% and just ignore all this feedback at once.  The update is out tomorrow. Let's see. I'm ready for another big thread of negative feedback if I have to restate all my points over and over. I have nothing better to do with my free time since I'm not playing the game. 🙂