The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[GigabearPRIME]

1 minute ago, selig_fay said:

The main question is whether we can resurrect a pet or sentinel. The use of the ability depends only on this.

This is a good point. If it took them out of bleedout then I can absolutely see a myself using it sometimes. I'll have to see how it works once I unlock it.

[Zilotz]

40 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Let's pretend that the DEs have learned their lesson.

Would be nice if they did not forget their past mistakes.

I mean since YEARS they know that setting hard release date means for them big stress and lot of bugs as release is rushed as they never get on time in finishing it well.

Let's pretend they did like a responsible company and decided to move abilities release date telling "We are sorry, we failed to keep our promise about deadline but we hope that good quality of release will be more pleasing than a huge pile of bugs that would happen if we put it out today! We did read your feedback(all of it even if it was not easy) and decided to work on improving less valuable abilities to give much wider choice. Also with these improvements there is no need in weakening current best abilities as everyone will have a good choice according to their playstyle. We do release Heart of Deimos update soon but Helminth system will be at first limited to giving(subsuming in advance is still possible) Helminth abilities only until we finish preparing all warframe abilities, testing them on test cluster, listing them again and reading your feedback again to be sure that every of them is a viable choice before we do serve them to you."

I guess such answer would please almost everyone.

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

38 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

this will be -yet- another yeah of Gross Income Loss (to  no ones srupise) 

It already is,  last year it was down 12% . This year down 20%  railjack is still hurting them.  And the reason the community rages over everything this days isn't cause their more toxic   like some white knights clame,   it's because their just sick of it. ..

[DeLawrence]

26 minutes ago, Zilotz said:

Would be nice if they did not forget their past mistakes.

I mean since YEARS they know that setting hard release date means for them big stress and lot of bugs as release is rushed as they never get on time in finishing it well.

Let's pretend they did like a responsible company and decided to move abilities release date telling "We are sorry, we failed to keep our promise about deadline but we hope that good quality of release will be more pleasing than a huge pile of bugs that would happen if we put it out today! We did read your feedback(all of it even if it was not easy) and decided to work on improving less valuable abilities to give much wider choice. Also with these improvements there is no need in weakening current best abilities as everyone will have a good choice according to their playstyle. We do release Heart of Deimos update soon but Helminth system will be at first limited to giving(subsuming in advance is still possible) Helminth abilities only until we finish preparing all warframe abilities, testing them on test cluster, listing them again and reading your feedback again to be sure that every of them is a viable choice before we do serve them to you."

I guess such answer would please almost everyone.

But it would solve basically nothing because you can't please everyone(hence your "almost" I guess)...yells and screams of "nerf this, buff that" will still be heard.

The best community feedback is the compilation of usage stats...and that should be like 70% factored in when making a buff or nerf decision along with written feedback on forums and TC, because numbers are facts and they speak for the entire community. 

Now the problem DE faces though is that they never seem to be able to tone down or tone up the items in question. I mean, they are Digital EXTREMES and that's kinda what they do, they either make something extremely overpowered or dead on arrival. 

I am curious as to what happened to Catchmoon usage stats after the nerf. The gun became almost useless and I am still not seeing them around anymore in lobbies.

 

[Dragan__]

vor 19 Minuten schrieb (PS4)SolarPhantom82:

It already is,  last year it was down 12% . This year down 20%  railjack is still hurting them.  And the reason the community rages over everything this days isn't cause their more toxic   like some white knights clame,   it's because their just sick of it. ..

you really like using those numbers dont you

[Zeniistar]

Am 19.8.2020 um 23:14 schrieb Grav_Starstrider:

You're clearly being too aggressive for their tastes. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. There's enough examples in the thread, simmer down and elaborate on why things are bad, and how you think they could be better :V

And Steve responded with a le funny meme 

[Keyhound]

7 hours ago, MarrikBroom said:

So what am I supposed to do then? The proper theoretically correct way to do things gets no results. I think they are doing and have done the wrong thing here but i don't think it is unsalvageable.

remember when people asked for more than a year for DE to make a separate prime acc pack? but they waited until JUST AFTER Jim Sterling made a video criticizing them on that... its sad but sometimes that's the only way companies do anything is when you push them hard enough...

[(PSN)Zwaks]

On 2020-08-12 at 7:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

 

	AUGUST 19TH UPDATE:

Greetings, Tenno!

The launch of Heart of Deimos grows near, and we have some Helminth updates since we last posted! Below are 2 parts of updated/clarifying information that touches both Infused Warframe Abilities and the Helminth Segment acquisition.  

PART 1 - Changes to select Infused Warframe Abilities

Please keep in mind we’re still testing/playing around with the values for each, hence why the values are not present below:

The following only apply to Infused Warframe Abilities:

Rhino - Roar
Diminished Damage increase

Mirage - Eclipse
Diminished Damage increase and cap Damage Reduction 

Valkyr - Warcry
Attack speed increase reduced

Protea - Dispenser
Duration reduced

Nidus - Larva
Radius reduced

Wukong - Defy
Armor capped

Hi. Have the numbers to these been released yet? I'm curious to see the new numbers to these abilities for Chrysalis System.

[Zilotz]

43 minutes ago, DeLawrence said:

But it would solve basically nothing because you can't please everyone(hence your "almost" I guess)...yells and screams of "nerf this, buff that" will still be heard.

The best community feedback is the compilation of usage stats...and that should be like 70% factored in when making a buff or nerf decision along with written feedback on forums and TC, because numbers are facts and they speak for the entire community. 

It would solve a lot of things.

Yeah, there will be occasional buff or nerf requests but if they do test everything well there will be just a few people unhappy.

Usage stats are a good tool BUT it is important to know not only how big usage is but also WHY people choose one option and not others.

Often it can be just convenient mechanics and not big numbers.

[master_of_destiny]

5 hours ago, IGN_Maverick said:

It depends. I'm pretty sure most MR20+ players can have Rank 3 in like 3 days.

You do not need to guess.  Let's do the math together and see where I'm coming from.

 

Syndicate rank-up is consistent.  If you check the wiki, the ranks are:

5k - rank 0

22k - rank 1

44k - rank 2

70k - rank 3

Thus the ranking requirement to go from 0 to 3 are 139k standing.  139/30 = 5 days of standing grind.  As such, 5 days to earn the reputation for a MR 29 player.  7 days to earn it for a MR 19 player.  You can fill in the respective blanks for yourself otherwise.

 

Where do I have room to be wrong?  Well, if the math works out to actually be going from rank 0 to rank 3, then it'll potentially be 5k+22k+44k = 71k or 3 days before we have access.  I'll be honest here, I'm not  entirely good on how the ranking up works with the rewards here.  If DE meant that you get is with access to tier 3 rewards you'll have 70k less to grind.  If they mean it's in the tier 3, you could still have that 70k to grind.  If they actually mean that you'll need rank 3 completed, and be in rank 4, it's 70k and then some.  

I guess we'll see.  Most optimistically, an MR 19 player has 4 days to wait.  An MR 29 player has 3 days.  Realistically, who knows until the release?

[(PSN)DARK9SGE]

So what i don't understand after seeing all the info online, videos post etc. Is why is the 1st responce by DE to nerf everything!?

Why you guys get over excited with that nonsense. Everything in the game for older players who spend money on this game etc that makes us want to play you take away or break it!

How about instead of nerfing the things that take the "overwhelming focus" as you put it.... You start buffing some of the over 90% garbage weapons that we have.  Or some of the frames that get ignored!?

When it comes to Helminth we are dealing with infested correct??  With infested comes mutation... It's kind of implied seeing as that what all the enemies are.   So that being said rather than nerf the most empowering abilities in the list... How about we enhance the ones that are totally unwanted with mutations.. Hence balancing things out... 

And by all means don't just give it to us but infact encorperate it within the helminth leveling system that supposed to be in effect for him/her.  

I'm not going to go into detail on what the mutations should be.  How bout you DEVS use your imagination and surprise us with something amazing.

I'm a long time Warframe player and honestly speaking the game at this point is literally putting me to sleep as i play.. And i really don't like that.  I want to play and enjoy the game. Especially since i spend money on it.  But you guys are making it rather difficult!!

Please stop with the nerfing. And let's improve on whats already there.  Thx

DARK9SGE

 

[Keyhound]

Just now, (PS4)DARK9SGE said:

So what i don't understand after seeing all the info online, videos post etc. Is why is the 1st responce by DE to nerf everything!?

Why you guys get over excited with that nonsense. Everything in the game for older players who spend money on this game etc that makes us want to play you take away or break it!

How about instead of nerfing the things that take the "overwhelming focus" as you put it.... You start buffing some of the over 90% garbage weapons that we have.  Or some of the frames that get ignored!?

When it comes to Helminth we are dealing with infested correct??  With infested comes mutation... It's kind of implied seeing as that what all the enemies are.   So that being said rather than nerf the most empowering abilities in the list... How about we enhance the ones that are totally unwanted with mutations.. Hence balancing things out... 

And by all means don't just give it to us but infact encorperate it within the helminth leveling system that supposed to be in effect for him/her.  

I'm not going to go into detail on what the mutations should be.  How bout you DEVS use your imagination and surprise us with something amazing.

I'm a long time Warframe player and honestly speaking the game at this point is literally putting me to sleep as i play.. And i really don't like that.  I want to play and enjoy the game. Especially since i spend money on it.  But you guys are making it rather difficult!!

Please stop with the nerfing. And let's improve on whats already there.  Thx

DARK9SGE

 

core A gaming made an amazing video about how nerfs dont solve the problems in most cases FOR FIGHTING GAMES. of course, there are situations like Leroy on tekken 7 who was so outside the skill gap, even pros adimited he was beyond anyone else... but to most situations, it is always better to buff the others, than it is to nerf the good ones. warframe is no diferent in that situation, nerfing roar wont help, because what makes roar the top pick is not the amount it buffs, but HOW it buffs the player.

nerfing it is nonsensical at best, and tone deaf at worst.

then there's defy... can someone tell me why is defy considered good? a timed armor buff, that requires you to get hit to gain armor... for 25 seconds(base), the irony is, i could see rhinos using it for an easier iron skin... even though larva or the whip would probably work better in most cases(if you pick the charge mod). aside from him and maybe frost, i really fail to see who will be able to make use of it to any real degree...

then there's larva, with such an obvious "they must be high" flaw in logic...
and finally, warcry... because aparently, being slightly less fast is somehow going to make oneshotting EVERYONE, a milisecond slower...

[KlaussKlauss]

A poeme: This is my fav Warframe thread ever.

 

              So much passion, so much drama,              

              MR29s crying, brushing of their tears

              with god roll Rivens for the Kuva Bramma.

              They have bought over the years

              Hundred thousands plats and gifts,

              Now, they wine, and hiss, and fuss,

              But when the update finely hits,

              They will grind it up their a**.

 

EDIT before posting (like nerfing before launching): It is satire, I feel your pain, but I also have a MR3 friend who plays since 2012. Granted he played about 10 hours in 2012 and never returned. Why shouldn't this update be for him? Now get back to the grind and enjoy your subsumed, unnerfed, Decoy. Git gud!

EDIT EDIT (after posting): It might seem that this isn't an opinion on my parts, but it is. I do not consider myself a vet, but I don't like how Warframe vets are ignored and denied content worthy of their work. I find MR8 as a low requirement for this system. Also, the nerfs are not inspired at all. 

 

 

 

 

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, SordidDreams said:

Techncially yes, but it's so irrelevant that I had completely forgotten it even exists.

Or you can do what I did, grind for something else to trade for plat, then trade that plat for the parts you want. Much faster that way. Trading is part of the game, so I find your argument a little disingenuous. It's like arguing that farming nitain is extremely hard because it's also locked behind the same challenge; that is true, but the argument ignores the fact that there's also another, much easier way.

Again, true, but again, as in the case of the Xiphos, so small as to be basically irrelevant. There's so much lower-hanging fruit that by the time you work your way up to these, the MR they provide is going to be a drop in the ocean and you're really not going to give a damn.

Also, I should point out that the rumors of Hema's cost are greatly exaggerated. Yes, the research is expensive, but it's meant to be a team effort by the entire clan; if everyone contributes, it's not hard at all. I understand the frustration of people who have had to grind a lot for it because everyone had not contributed, but in that case I think they should direct their anger at their lazy clanmates rather than at DE. In addition, the gun is only expensive to research, not to build, so you can always temporarily join a clan that has it for the sole purpose of buying the BP. So again there is an easier way.

Yes. Welcome to free-to-play.

Though on the subject of power creep, I am of the mind that it is necessary and good. Nobody would be excited for updates if all the new gear was guaranteed to be worse than what we already have.

Objective power doesn't matter, only the perception of power, which is reflected in usage statistics. Game devs have figured that out a long time ago. Guns that make a loud bang are used more by players because they feel more powerful, even if they don't do any more actual damage, for example. Chris Wilson of GGG recently made an interesting point in an interview, where he said they've had to gradually creep drop rates in Path of Exile leagues, because players coming from the previous league felt the new one was less rewarding. It wasn't, the devs had the numbers to prove it, it was simply a case of players not having learned to farm the new content efficiently yet, but at the end of the day player feelings matter more than objective numbers.

Grinding for stuff to trade for plat absolutely is a game feature and a cornerstone of the game's business model. Every online game has a shadow economy of people selling farmed items for real money, and every studio that runs such a game tries and fails to stamp that out. DE did the exact opposite, they made it a feature. You can pay real money for farmed items no problem in WF. Except, because you do it via plat, the person getting paid that real money is DE, not the farmer. It's f*cking brilliant.

Again, that is technically true, but again, that effect is so small as to be basically irrelevant. 1K MR for 5 forma and a boatload of your time is just not worth it. Yes, eventually you'll probably go for it if you continue to play the game long enough, but only after getting literally everything else and more for the sake of completionism than because you actually need the MR. Diminishing returns are a proven concept in game design, kuva weapons are simply an example of it.

As for syndicate medallions, yes, you could do that, but why on earth would you?

Yes, that does create the content island borders, but you know what the complaints would be if DE did as you suggest? "Waah, waah, I want to play the new thing, why is the update forcing me into the same old boring resource farms again for the umpteenth time?" Content islands being separate from each other does have its upsides.

I would like to be fair here.  As such, every instance where you say "technically correct" is something that I will ignore.  My intention is that you see where I am coming from, and disagree for a reason that is not logic based.  That is something that cannot be discussed, as the circle cannot objectively be squared.

 

Regarding Nitain, that's a pretty bad take.  Let's consider that the old way was 4 every 24 hours.  You got an alert, completed a mission, and you were done.  In a year I managed to farm in excess of 400 an build all of the primes I wanted.  People complained because there wasn't always 6+ hours to wait, so DE installed it into Nightwave.  I'm getting ahead of myself, but this also addresses you content island end comment.  DE made Nightwave to force people to do older content, and used it to lock Nitain, auras, and cosmetics.  Yes, DE is already forcing us to engage with old content to get resources we need for other content. 

The problem here then becomes two fold.  Do I get the Nitain to build the thing, or buy a reactor/catalyst to make the thing I have better?  Ideally this choice is either a matter of purchasing or grinding, but it's more insidious.  As Nightwave standing is capped, and the value of a reactor/catalyst is 5x that of a bundle of 5 Nitain, you come to a question of being able to earn new content as a player.  You come to a false wall, where the only option is to wait an indeterminate number of weeks for the next opportunity to earn standing or buy now.  This isn't a good look for DE, as it's creating false choice.

Now, what about other ways to earn Nitain?  Well, it's vanishingly rare (0.67% on cache three of a reactor sabatoge, while xiphos is 0.5%) to get in an constantly available mission type.  No go there, as Nitain is required in relatively large counts.  Assuming there's a ghoul purge event you can earn it in stage 4 and 5 of the bounties, and it's even at about 6%.  Ouch.  That's highest value arcane levels of grind.  To be clear, 1407 runs to have a 50% chance of getting 21 drops at 5% drop chances.  6% is better than eidolons, but you're still looking at literal thousands of runs to earn enough to get what you need from a timed event.

Let's now offer a middle finger from veterans to new players.  Newbies get to do this grind, and veterans don't give a crap.  Nitain dropped via alerts for years, so it's possible that people are literally sitting on enough to never need more.  I know that I am, and this was all in service of "player choice" for rewards.  A phrase that actually meant artificial caps on rewards, limiting earnings, but creating the false benefit of choice.  It was implementing a cap that didn't exist with alerts, and giving up their timed nature for a slightly more generous timer and less potential (but more control).

 

Now, regarding monetization.  Let me suggest that I started when the daily lives tokens were a thing.  I had no problem with it as a mechanic, even when falling off of a level was a "death."  Yes, falling off of a level through walls was a death.  I stutter not.  Despite this, I bought prime access to support the developers.  The game was intriguing, bare bones, but fun to play.  Now let's take a quick look at 2019....yep, there's a lot of updates that are entirely tennogen.  Nope, I cannot buy it with platinum.  Yep, the last 5 years have introduced bunches of new "upgrades" designed to lock power behind additional grind walls and conveniently require more forma which requires more grind.  No, that's not inherently bad.  It is inherently bad when you lock bad power though.  What is bad power?  Pexilus.  Umbral Forma.  Aura Forma.  Pexilus is bad because it's limited mods at a surprisingly high price.  Umbral is bad because there's no longer any way to earn them but once every 20+ weeks.  Aura because the cost is literally as high as changing 4 slots on a frame, to get the minor convenience of using any aura (which rarely changes even after the CP nerf).

Do I appreciate the new systems?  No.  Why?  Well, old DE might have run an arcade machine, but it was honest.  New DE is offering less and less but adding more and more grind.  As you stated, diminishing returns for the Kuva weapons are clear.  Likewise with Exilus and Pexilus.  Likewise with Nightwave gating resources.  Likewise with 6+ months required to roll out open worlds after their "release."  All of this makes shelling out real money difficult.

I would like to address the platinum grind, on the tail end of all of this.  DE needs to have grind, so people have to choose whether to spend money or to grind.  That's fair.  What isn't is the constantly worsening grind.  See above, but my favorite point is Braton Vandal.  It's a weapon with an MR lock that is low, but to get it you'll have to grind through literal hundreds of ESO sessions at least 20 minutes long (unless RNG is very kind).  I took 2 months, running it twice daily, before one bp dropped.  Is the weapon worth it?  Nope, it's middling at best and hot garbage at worst, owing largely to its very low MR.  Now you could buy this from somebody for platinum, and maybe even grind that platinum from a more rewarding source.  Why take umbrage then?  Well, when content is skipped because it isn't rewarding it's bad content.  You're applying a bandage to fix a bad choice, and there's no feedback to DE.

Without feedback that things are getting worse, there's no change.  Worst of all, DE is rewarded in platinum sales for producing garbage.  That is, until new players stop buying platinum and the wheels fall off this train.  No new blood means no cash infusion, and it's all centering around bad content stretched with poor RNG.  All of these problems are entirely glossed over because they made money when released, so that can't be the problem.  It's how we got Old Blood and Railjack....and how Scarlet Spear was allowed to flop so hard.  There's no need to alter course, until all of those bad decisions cascade into a dumpster fire.

I want to desire giving DE money for their work.  I do not accept them forcing it out of me, if I value my time in any meaningful way.

 

Let's finally talk power creep and syndicates.  I'll deal with the medallions first.  30k standing a day means I can get 45k total to spend simply from the extra.  That's 6 relics and 5k extra, of which 2 are Axi or Neo and 4 are Meso or Lith.  Add that to the syndicate missions, ranging from 3k to 5k per run.  Add the ability to effectively farm 6 daily missions for 4 syndicates, at 100%, 0%, 100%, and 50% efficiency, and you get a rather large chunk of reputation to allow you to avoid relic farming.  Combine that with the augment mods being available day one, and it's a minimum impact grind for good repayment.  That's why syndicates are valuable.

Regarding power creep, I don't think it's handled well in warframe.  If MR gated weapons better, and content scaled as enemies were more than bullet sponges, then maybe power creep makes sense.  The problem is that MR is busted.  It's busted because they are still adding content, it's effectively not a gating mechanism after MR 16, and new content is being added to the lower levels constantly.  Power Creep would be fine if there were MR 20+ weapons, and MR 20+ content to use them on.  Right now basically any melee shreds enemies up to level 100, despite you being frame locked to 30.  Primaries and secondaries are somewhat locked, but honestly once you can earn the Hek or Vaykor Hek the star chart is yours.  The point here is that warframe needs high level content, that isn't a bullet sponge, to support creep.  It doesn't do that, as demonstrated by the Helminth.  As such, power creep is not appreciated because it'll make all the oldest content worse without offering a compelling reason to use it.  Funnily enough, it exemplifies your comment that old content will offer virtually no returns other than MR points.  If that's it, and you earn 3k points for 30 levels, but require 100k+ just to get a new MR level, then you come to your point of it not being of value.  That's why power creep, in this game, is bad.

 

Could DE offer endgame?  They have tried.  Raids were endgame.  Sorties were endgame.  Arbitrations were endgame.  Long run ESO was endgame.  Thing is, all of these things were endgame until their rewards were plundered.  DE tried to create "evergreen" rewards with echoes of Umbra, and immediately were made to understand why people didn't like their AI.  They then leaned heavier into rivens, because they'll always be viable if there are constant tweaks.  There's a statistical possibility of getting a perfect roll, but to actually see it you'll need millions of Kuva.  In short, because they cannot create an infinitely rewarding item they can only have their new content be as endgame as the poor drop chances.  As such, we are stuck constantly without any endgame, waiting for the next content to grind.  Maybe it's time for a paradigm shift...or maybe push out another open world.  One with a system that could redefine how we play, until neutered into being a bad return on a huge investment.  Oh, I'm talking about the Helminth.  We're back to thread relevance!

[SnakeBadger]

It would be good to have the syndicates supply the players with additional bounties and rewards without partaking in their normal missions so that the "helminth" can be feed, along with a railjack version, this can influence the fuels and archwing crowd, maybe we can hire the ventkids to partake engineer and upgrade our ship functions, the rigs, and warframe in the orbiters, and another assistant like ordis in the telecoms,offline clickers give players some credits, rightnow emails have attachments and occasional boosters, but i would like to see other items and reward types which automatically escalate like a overflowing clock, or casino, phones have that win style, maybe we can make another mobile app too, not just to feed the beast but to play the minigames and collect, this way operators who dont play or read emails right awaye can still benefit from the helminth and the other rooms, or relays without going into a mission, i treally really helps the players who are all color-blind end-game, fashion frame, because we never leave the orbiters, so we want something else to do besides shooting and weapons testing, alot of playes just stay indoors, there can be types of fuel and items to get at each different relay, and feed for the pets, helmnth, and upgrades for the jacks/archwing that can be "temporary" when they log-in or if they go visit other planets or NPC like how we have a ZAW guy but there is no rental or temporary reason to talk to any shop, citizen or tenno who are just blabbering, if we give them soft reasons like bribbing and credits to exchange numbers, given that works for relays and cities, where some players can hold a button to swap a few like the emote actions, this gives NPC other =functions they get souvenirs to convert, data packages, keys to activate doors and bounties, in the city and outside a quick-spectre to tag-in before the elevator-ride or music change, functions for areas and triggers this can be like megaman games

[Circle_of_Psi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)SolarPhantom82 said:

It already is,  last year it was down 12% . This year down 20%  railjack is still hurting them.  And the reason the community rages over everything this days isn't cause their more toxic   like some white knights clame,   it's because their just sick of it. ..

Indeed and the WKs will protect them no matter what or call others out thinking they are "cool"

[Noel_Woodsoul]

23 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

It was the weekend. You being upset about your toy doesn’t constitute an emergency. Sit down, shut up and wait for the adults to get back to work.

The nerfs were announced on Wednsday, and the response was immediate and relentless, both in this thread and in the form of Youtube videos by many of the well known community members.

DE had all of Thursday and Friday to respond.

To be quite frank, they've been doing this for many years and should have seen this reaction coming. A short "we are discussing this internally and will have a statement soon" should not be too much to ask, to show that they are not ignoring our thoughts on this matter (even if some are frankly being quite toxic in expressing them).

[SnakeBadger]

Kuva fortress and other nodes are really rubish areas to add additional rewards and enemies, siphon, and enclave come to mind lunaro and helmnth or pet boosters when players arrive at each type of planet there can be "Adaptive"-presences" and sensory traits which go automatically like reason to explore or stay longer in those tilesets which have water and trees or sand to skip over some mod functions if our kavats or dogs come to help without equiping them like a spectre is wonderful if you added those functions to areas with wilderbeast like cetus, which works like a rental with those quick-swap money/ the credits and door-chieftains would allow you to carry additional items and spectre for soloing, and bounties, and this makes new achiements and rewards ideal fishing, and minning crew that can die or tag-along robotics who can be repaired and blow up, extractors, and syndicates like the old nightwave. 

[Krankbert]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

The nerfs were announced on Wednsday, and the response was immediate and relentless, both in this thread and in the form of Youtube videos by many of the well known community members.

DE had all of Thursday and Friday to respond.

To be quite frank, they've been doing this for many years and should have seen this reaction coming. A short "we are discussing this internally and will have a statement soon" should not be too much to ask, to show that they are not ignoring our thoughts on this matter (even if some are frankly being quite toxic in expressing them).

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

[master_of_destiny]

4 hours ago, selig_fay said:

A bit of speculation on this topic.

Let's pretend that the DEs have learned their lesson. They presented the system, but this caused positive feedback from the players (apart from the small group of balance keepers and players below mr15) Positive reviews mean high expectations from players. And here railjack is a good example where it looked cool but turned out to be bad in practice.

Going forward, let's pretend the DEs are deliberately upsetting the players. Lots of negative reviews - low system expectation. The more players are upset now, the more players will get a good experience from the positive changes.

Let's imagine that DE has admitted a mistake and now does not want to inform us about all the changes that are coming in the future, so as not to cause resentment of meta couch analysts again. But when these changes hit frustrated players, it will generate a positive resonance.

And yes, hello from the world of pink ponies.

Help me here...No Man's Sky?

 

Right now the Steam reviews of No Man's Sky are generally positive.  This, despite their apocalyptic release.  Hello Games released a turd, then disappeared from social media.  They released patch after patch in silence, and the game is now...good.  I can see less optimistic takes, but divorced from the promises it's not a bad experience.

 

Instead of learning and replicating that, you're suggesting a scorched earth policy.  If everyone assumes garbage, anything better is going to be viewed as good.  I can see the logic, but is DE really capable of doing this?  I ask because, Tennocon was delayed a month, showed off new content, and had another month to wait before any new content was released.  All the while, DE is hyping the Helminth system without really understanding how to sell it to us.  What I mean is announcing surprisingly good powers is great....but then all of these decisions and half communications killed the hype.  It wasn't intentional, just a huge failure to understand how to talk to the community.

 

This smells more like Mighty Number Nine than Fallout 4.  By that, I mean promising the moon and not delivering, rather than simply pushing out an unpolished mess into the world that would not be otherwise tolerated if released by anyone else.

 

 

Interesting take though.  I can definitely see where you're coming from, even if I don't feel it.

[Amazerath]

4 hours ago, RS219 said:

A worded statement saying that a comprehensive response would be released prior to release would have been significantly better than this vague meme.

It would. It definitely would.

But Steve doesn't usually handle this kind of situation well. He's very passionate and having to face a wall of criticism (most of it probably containing insults) gets to him. Also, knowing DE they might still be in the process of figuring out what the heck they're gonna do and can't even offer a response that wouldn't simply add more to the fire.

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Amazerath:

It would. It definitely would.

But Steve doesn't usually handle this kind of situation well. He's very passionate and having to face a wall of criticism (most of it probably containing insults) gets to him. Also, knowing DE they might still be in the process of figuring out what the heck they're gonna do and can't even offer a response that wouldn't simply add more to the fire.

Let’s be honest here - there is no possible response they could give that anyone here would deem acceptable except maybe for an apology and a retraction of the nerf, and even that is doubtful. They’re not going to do that so a statement would have changed nothing.

[Noel_Woodsoul]

Just now, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerds. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerds or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, and starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

What is a good argument is entirely subjective.

 

My argument is that nerfing genuinely good abilities means Warframes in desperate need of a power-up won't get it. In my case, I was hoping for Roar on a strength+durability Hydroid to make his abilities hit harder than a wet noodle.

 

The bad abilities are not worth the slot, so the best case scenario I can see for this nerf is that it's small enough that everyone still uses the nerfed abilities - and if we do, the nerfs just makes it less likely that the bad frames become viable for higher level content.

[Amazerath]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Let’s be honest here - there is no possible response they could give that anyone here would deem acceptable except maybe for an apology and a retraction of the nerf, and even that is doubtful. They’re not going to do that so a statement would have changed nothing.

Steve himself has done that many times in the past. He is almost always the one who explains how and why they messed things up and what he wish they had done differently. But that's usually after the "crisis" and I think we are still in the middle/end part. And it doesn't always happen of course.

Personally, I don't need a response. DE's responses can always be found in their actions. But for the sake of the people who can't move on and for DE's own sake, I hope they eventually talk about it.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

What is a good argument is entirely subjective.

 

My argument is that nerfing genuinely good abilities means Warframes in desperate need of a power-up won't get it. In my case, I was hoping for Roar on a strength+durability Hydroid to make his abilities hit harder than a wet noodle.

 

The bad abilities are not worth the slot, so the best case scenario I can see for this nerf is that it's small enough that everyone still uses the nerfed abilities - and if we do, the nerfs just makes it less likely that the bad frames become viable for higher level content.

Have you considered that making bad frames viable was never the point of the Helminth? I get it. You’re disappointed because you found out that the Helminth isn’t what you thought it was. But that’s not a good argument against the nerf.