The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[master_of_destiny]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Let’s be honest here - there is no possible response they could give that anyone here would deem acceptable except maybe for an apology and a retraction of the nerf, and even that is doubtful. They’re not going to do that so a statement would have changed nothing.

Interesting, on the the one hand you've decided that there's no reason that nerfs aren't reasonable.  It's not like there's an argument that different power choices would fix the need to nerf.  On the other, you get that Steve is incapable of providing an answer that would actually be useful.  Odd.

 

Let me provide you with what you're missing.  Steve's response should have been:

[this space intentionally blank to represent silence]

 

 

No Man's Sky.  Murray basically bowed out of social media, despite overwhelming passion for the game.  His team worked not on doing stupid things on social media that polarized the community, but on pumping out updates.  

You want a parallel, let's look at Microsoft.  Their response to the online connectivity requirement was "just buy an xbox 360."  Their sales tanked because of it.  The proper response was that they're looking to deliver the consumer never before seen features, and they will justify the requirements with the quality of their offering.  As an aside, the xbox game pass is basically this philosophy.  Let's also look at EA.  Battlefield 5....Ouch.  Don't like it, then don't buy it.

 

The answer here is not a stupid meme.  It's been shown to DE and countless other companies before, but the message has not been taken.  I wonder what it will take?  Will it be another Scarlet Spear before somebody at DE decides that the community team has enough on their plate without having to address this nonsense?

[Krankbert]

Gerade eben schrieb Amazerath:

Steve himself has done that many times in the past. He is almost always the one who explains how and why they messed things up and what he wish they had done differently. But that's usually after the "crisis" and I think we are still in the middle/end part. And it doesn't always happen of course.

Personally, I don't need a response. DE's responses can always be found in their actions. But for the sake of the people who can't move on and for DE's own sake, I hope they eventually talk about it.

Well, if I was at DE, all the people who demand that I be available on a Sunday because they  can’t move on from an ability in a video game being nerfed before they ever had it could continue lying in the bed they made themselves and continue obsessing over it until the end of time, but that’s why I’m not in a PR position.

[Noel_Woodsoul]

1 minute ago, Krankbert said:

Have you considered that making bad frames viable was never the point of the Helminth? I get it. You’re disappointed because you found out that the Helminth isn’t what you thought it was. But that’s not a good argument against the nerf.

What IS it for though? Making already strong frames stronger?

Pretty much every frame has at least one bad ability, so this was never gonna be a sidegrade system.

It is therefore either to buff strong frames or weak frames, and frankly I'd prefer the latter.

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb master_of_destiny:

Interesting, on the the one hand you've decided that there's no reason that nerfs aren't reasonable.  It's not like there's an argument that different power choices would fix the need to nerf.  On the other, you get that Steve is incapable of providing an answer that would actually be useful.  Odd.

I think he’s perfectly capable of giving an answer that would be useful. I don’t think that an answer exists that you would accept.

Just look at your first sentence. You can’t even accept what I wrote here and already replaced it with something else in your head.

[Krankbert]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

What IS it for though? Making already strong frames stronger?

Pretty much every frame has at least one bad ability, so this was never gonna be a sidegrade system.

It is therefore either to buff strong frames or weak frames, and frankly I'd prefer the latter.

Options. Diversity. Choice. Show me where they said that this is supposed to fix bad frames. You can’t because they didn’t. That this is supposed to fix all issues with Warframe abilities and will serve as a replacement for reworks was just something people on this forum read into it - something brought to you by the same community that also seriously claims that nerfs happen because DE doesn’t want them having fun.

[SnakeBadger]

51 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

Help me here...No Man's Sky?

 

Right now the Steam reviews of No Man's Sky are generally positive.  This, despite their apocalyptic release.  Hello Games released a turd, then disappeared from social media.  They released patch after patch in silence, and the game is now...good.  I can see less optimistic takes, but divorced from the promises it's not a bad experience.

 

Instead of learning and replicating that, you're suggesting a scorched earth policy.  If everyone assumes garbage, anything better is going to be viewed as good.  I can see the logic, but is DE really capable of doing this?  I ask because, Tennocon was delayed a month, showed off new content, and had another month to wait before any new content was released.  All the while, DE is hyping the Helminth system without really understanding how to sell it to us.  What I mean is announcing surprisingly good powers is great....but then all of these decisions and half communications killed the hype.  It wasn't intentional, just a huge failure to understand how to talk to the community.

 

This smells more like Mighty Number Nine than Fallout 4.  By that, I mean promising the moon and not delivering, rather than simply pushing out an unpolished mess into the world that would not be otherwise tolerated if released by anyone else.

 

 

Interesting take though.  I can definitely see where you're coming from, even if I don't feel it.

Mighty9th is a really good game, but could be polished so hard by a real shooting game or a martial artist to have additional kicks and close combat, throws like how we have parazon, the environments are also left up to the users imagination so reminds me of some of our games tilesets which need features for the walls and doors.

I hate it when good games stop getting updates and DLC, the whole PS3 and PS4 classics are a good example, so many games just go unpatched and occasionally get a extra character, for example FFXIII, Lightning returns, and i can see thats because they are foreign games from japan so its a good excuse, thats what i get for being all hatsunemiku. simular to fable games >.< prince of persia, etc, dude virtual fighter also is gg.but its foreign so its a huge dissapointment, so i can see why u play no man's sky while waiting for this to make sense

• . I only seen a few videos on the helmnth its facinating but it needs a few more connections to the real game's UI and minimap
• , hud if the creature were to intercept the PA it would be creepy way to give voice to some players and characters talking and occasionally shooting at enemies from the orb whatever system's come up with a way to make those things real according to the players level, we can intercept the formorian and jailbreak devices which bound us during the start of the game in constant argument of the grineer, while the other factions also have their own beast programs, the computers during missions like cephalon CY and ordis can fight with lotus or take prisoners in bubbles, shield them temporarily, and congeal some sections of the map to give room for kuba siphon, extractors, and tennopods, enemy breaks, spawn points or the new rewards
• typing in cities could feel like metal gear solid, but the game would need other transsitional and weather elements for the cities most rpg-gams use a trust and faction system already, we need the credits and items for each NPC to matter, i added a quick swap system for renting spectre and temporary boosters,
• because of the vaccum system seems unrealistically plastic and helmith, damage procs, reload, could be redone for the most part i think reloading would need rework, and also weapons swap
• , item desynthesis and materialization would trigger wilder creatures and enemy actions, magic and systems
• thus i think creppier starwars functions would work
•  would blend well with the weapons and warframes to have those helminth and monsters outside the flotilla in other planets, just the abilities and passives is not going to be enough, think DEVIL MAY CRY when i talk UI.
• so without UI having a make-over its somewhat boring as the year before, tricking the players loading and ships functions would be nice to make sense of the relays, gray tenno offer help with credits in tiers
• AKA
• QUICKSWAP chapter
• quickswap would allow players to summon helpers, pets, prisoners and other npc to help or associate in cities and missions, orbiters and relaysl, but it can also be used to talk to villagers and computers with parazon, some mods would have passive features like how hacking works in the town to operate doors and access points, this way the players arent just getting smashed with clubs in the frenzy.
• player functions in cities simular to hacking could be fun for relays and npc outside of nightwave, this can be a good way to activate a robot or rent / pay a tenno, solo, and feed or fish in town is much friendier way to helminth in town, while giving chat some break will make the game very peaceful to craft and upgrade weapons on the fly instead of just using the armory, and zaw specialist, some ponds and rivers nearby.
• the forest will also need upgrades because its not dangerous enough, it seems somewhat of a place for stealth rightnow until gunfire goes off, but to the exteent there are not enough visual cues or masking so players will just go off to extraction or murdersprees.
• i think a relay in a forest, desert and water level is essential for new players with PVP
•  to give fish000000000000  to just feed the creature of every orbiter across the universe if the results are going to be human, there should be some weapons and blueprints thrown in- operator and archwing items, temporary boost, say the login screen gets some make-over, like cartoony idea of textbox and sound effects with monster sounds or robots will add to profiles and the geological neuroptics of chat, so players can feel the different overlays and relays have some exclusive bundles and DLC to customize each element, then the players can buy or install these UI'helpers who collect resources like extractors using the syndicate or whatever NPC system, pet or monster who is a goblin or robot that helps reloads and feature.

 

[Noel_Woodsoul]

10 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Options. Diversity. Choice. Show me where they said that this is supposed to fix bad frames. You can’t because they didn’t. That this is supposed to fix all issues with Warframe abilities and will serve as a replacement for reworks was just something people on this forum read into it - something brought to you by the same community that also seriously claims that nerfs happen because DE doesn’t want them having fun.

Nerfing these abilites don't add choice though. We'll still just pick the ability that improves upon what we want from our Warframes. If we need damage, we'll still use Roar or Eclipse.
If they completely changed Gauss ability to be his 1st instead I'd buy that argument, since that would give us the option of improving mobility.

Even if I were to agree that there's no good argument not to nerf these abilities, nerfing abilities takes a bit of work and a lot of people got disappointed when they did.
Therefore I would put it to you that the side requiring a good argument is the side that is pro-nerf, and I have not yet heard one.

Edit: And to be clear, I don't agree. I think there are strong arguments that the game would be healthier if they kept the abilities the way they are, giving us more freedom of choice in which Warframe to use by making weaker ones more viable.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

Nerfing these abilites don't add choice though. We'll still just pick the ability that improves upon what we want from our Warframes. If we need damage, we'll still use Roar or Eclipse.

Or Smite or or or or. Following Tennocon there was actually a discussion on the general forum about which elemental damage boosting augment was best. Of course the announcement of the abilities rendered that moot, because Roar is better than all of them.

[Keyhound]

37 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

of course not, because you are using your own definition on what is a good argument. for example, people have pointed out that diminishing the buff roar gives wont change the fact roar will still be the top choice due to how it buffs the warframes, as opposed to how much.

for some reason, you think that's not a good argument, even though it explains pretty effectively why said nerf is pointless.

another example:

larva's biggest advantage compared to khora's is its range... in every other way her version is superior, for being always drawing enemies and being recastable without a mod. diminishing larva's range wont just make it worse, will completely make it pointless to pick compared to the other one... in other words, you arent nerfing it, you are just making the other the literal better option in every single way.

another example:

warcry, its attack speed is great, but warcry have very niche uses, one of them being on valkyr who is the best user of that skill, due to her massive armor and exalted weapon, you could put on any other frame, like volt, to make use of the extra speed, but this nerf wont change that, its will affect it by probably 1 attack every 10 or so hits, meaning, it is completely pointless.

next one:

defy, what is defy even good for? the only frame that will probably make use of it is rhino, for a safe buffer in between iron skin casts, specially on roar builds. most other frames will be much better using vex armor instead, the buff doesnt even last that long to make it good without duration to begin with! 25 seconds, and having to wait 3 seconds with the only thing you can do is walk very slowly...


of course, your answer will be "thats not a good reason", because you have already decided that no matter what anyone says, you think the nerfs are good. and you arent open to any change on that stand.

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Keyhound:

most other frames will be much better using vex armor instead

Uh-huh.

[Noel_Woodsoul]

7 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Or Smite or or or or. Following Tennocon there was actually a discussion on the general forum about which elemental damage boosting augment was best. Of course the announcement of the abilities rendered that moot, because Roar is better than all of them.

That's still just another damage-buff. If they nerf Roar to the point where that's better, we'll just use that instead. There's no real variation to be found in choosing between Damage-buff A and damage-buff B.

Consider also the amount you'd have to nerf Roar to make Smite better/as good. Smite adds an addative 100% radiation damage IF you exhaust a mod-slot for the augment.
Roar gives you a straight up 50% multiplicative damage-boost to everything you do.

I'll be really disappointed if they nerf Roar that much.

Also, what's up with the Defy nerf? Did anyone actually think that one was top tier?

I will note that I can understand the Larva nerf, given how busted it is on Protea.

[SnakeBadger]

32 minutes ago, Noel_Woodsoul said:

What IS it for though? Making already strong frames stronger?

Pretty much every frame has at least one bad ability, so this was never gonna be a sidegrade system.

It is therefore either to buff strong frames or weak frames, and frankly I'd prefer the latter.

I wonder if the weapons will also see some feature with so many extra relics and blueprints that we get, maybe the foundry and other missions and town-npc will get a upgrade or feature inthe next patch  i hope this helps the NPC who offer missions functions for keys and mods which go ignored or unimproved,

[NovusKnight]

Is Helminth a Cat or Dog ‘Person’?

Well, you’ll find out… 

 

 

Huuuuuuh... why do I get the impression this *implies* we can uhhh... sacrifice our pets at some point?

further down the line...?

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

That's still just another damage-buff.

No, it’s not. They function quite differently. You described the mechanics yourself, you know the abilities aren’t the same. I don’t see a point in continuing this conversation on that basis.

[Urlan]

9 minutes ago, NovusKnight said:

Is Helminth a Cat or Dog ‘Person’?

Well, you’ll find out… 

Huuuuuuh... why do I get the impression this *implies* we can uhhh... sacrifice our pets at some point?

further down the line...?

Yeah, does seem to suggest that. Perhaps that is going to be the "Consign option" going forward? Instead of sending them to the Lotus, feeding them to Helminth?

[Noel_Woodsoul]

6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

No, it’s not. They function quite differently. You described the mechanics yourself, you know the abilities aren’t the same. I don’t see a point in continuing this conversation on that basis.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the nerfs themselves though, DE has been completely silent for over two full workdays and I think it is about time they at least pop in with a "We're discussing it and will get back to you with a full response."

If they decide stick to their guns, fine. I'll be disappointed, but fine. At this point I just want to know that they're not just ignoring the community.

[Kald-Wing]

27 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

defy, what is defy even good for? the only frame that will probably make use of it is rhino, for a safe buffer in between iron skin casts, specially on roar builds. most other frames will be much better using vex armor instead, the buff doesnt even last that long to make it good without duration to begin with! 25 seconds, and having to wait 3 seconds with the only thing you can do is walk very slowly...

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

[RivaAurelius]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

I have seen MANY a good argument against these nerfs. I have ALSO seen you be disingenuous about engaging in proper discourse in these forum posts. No matter how good an argument against your point of view is, you will side step it, as you have been seen to do. You ARE NOT the arbitter of what is or is not a good argument, and quite frankly, the anger about these nerfs is justified. Nerfing good abilities does not suddenly make bad abilities good. Nobody is going to pick decoy just because DE nerfed roar. They should have buffed the bad abilities and left the good ones as they were. 

[RivaAurelius]

1 hour ago, Noel_Woodsoul said:

The nerfs were announced on Wednsday, and the response was immediate and relentless, both in this thread and in the form of Youtube videos by many of the well known community members.

DE had all of Thursday and Friday to respond.

To be quite frank, they've been doing this for many years and should have seen this reaction coming. A short "we are discussing this internally and will have a statement soon" should not be too much to ask, to show that they are not ignoring our thoughts on this matter (even if some are frankly being quite toxic in expressing them).

Not to mention they've been posting hype on their official warframe twitter over the weekend, which shows they could have addressed the feedback then as well. 

[RivaAurelius]

52 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Options. Diversity. Choice. Show me where they said that this is supposed to fix bad frames. You can’t because they didn’t. That this is supposed to fix all issues with Warframe abilities and will serve as a replacement for reworks was just something people on this forum read into it - something brought to you by the same community that also seriously claims that nerfs happen because DE doesn’t want them having fun.

If this was about Options, about Diversity, and about Choice, they would work to give us more GOOD options instead of working to make every option BAD. 

[(XBOX)AbyssalRaven922]

Perspective for some people. The total XP required to attain mastery rank 8 is 160,000. Completing all of the junctions gets you 26,000.  All that leaves is for someone to level up 9 war frames and 22 weapons. This also includes the Archwing(+2/22 weaps) that you're required to get, and a kubrow that you're required to get.

This system is stronger than rivens and has half the prerequisites

Oh yeah and they give you a sentinel and its  weapon, and there are 12 or 13 weapons like the MK-1 set PURCHASABLE WITH CREDITS from the market. Dont tell me that's not all new player items. MR 8 is barely stepping into mid game. I'd stake money on the statement that most under MR10 don't even have a solid understanding of how the damage system currently works in the game.

Just so everyone is aware the XP for MR15 is 810,000. Wfs are 6,000xp,  weapons 3,000.

[RivaAurelius]

14 minutes ago, Noel_Woodsoul said:

Let's agree to disagree then.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the nerfs themselves though, DE has been completely silent for over two full workdays and I think it is about time they at least pop in with a "We're discussing it and will get back to you with a full response."

If they decide stick to their guns, fine. I'll be disappointed, but fine. At this point I just want to know that they're not just ignoring the community.

Fingers crossed they at least address the feedback. 

[RivaAurelius]

Just now, (XB1)AbyssalRaven922 said:

Perspective for some people. The total XP required to attain mastery rank 8 is 160,000. Completing all of the junctions gets you 26,000.  All that leaves is for someone to level up 9 war frames and 22 weapons. This also includes the Archwing(+2/22 weaps) that you're required to get, and a kubrow that you're required to get.

This system is stronger than rivens and has half the prerequisites

Oh yeah and they give you a sentinel and its  weapon, and there are 12 or 13 weapons like the MK-1 set PURCHASABLE WITH CREDITS from the market. Dont tell me that's not all new player items. MR 8 is barely stepping into mid game. I'd stake money on the statement that most under MR10 don't even have a solid understanding of how the damage system currently works in the game.

Just so everyone is aware the XP for MR15 is 810,000. Wfs are 6,000xp,  weapons 3,000.

Thank you for some much needed perspective. Let's not forget that if a player really wanted to, they could get to MR8 within the span of 8 days.

[SnakeBadger]

The enemy soldiers would also subject to experiments and new ships, so each tile set should get some offending denominators to make bounties and missions less predictable for the helmith system to work giving those old areas a quick rewash and environmental variables for the doors and computer so players dont just rushout to extraction if they want to solo or stay in a mission to gather fungus, or fuel from fishing and minning, machines, or datakeys, and ammunition to forge new blueprint caskets and swap-gear, secondary weapons and the heavy gun would need a few new mods, and Zaw also would need to be more mainstream, i think players just arriving at cetus and fortuna would need a kitgun or a few free items to equip with the coming themes of GARA, and the other story warframes a few themed accessories and weapons to collect for the orbiter are a great start to give each player a chance when talking to the NPC in those areas or planet's relays other options and temporary items/spectre/trade offer tutorials, and quickswap functions like how emotes work in the game, this can be used to open doors and operate machinery in the cities/villages and give each station meaning, which solves alot of mysterious stuff in town, that way you know what players really want, since not everyone is trained to chat or talk to strangers, also voice chat seems mysterious, maybe each warframe can eventually have voice masking or some text feature packages taht can be bought or earned like the smilie faces and fonts or UI/minimap and mods to unlock which can be themed, i think the player profiles are end-game as fashion frame, so those players can get some more intriging clan borders and HUD features which shimmer or are premium as the achiements allow, or those chest tattooes come with passive functions as keys and allow useless items in the game to feature more unlockable waypoints and sensory feature, that maybe"like how  of the melee-stances use endo to aquire FX and other optinal things, the  another tier based rewards or passive is unmasked, so players would get a hint on weapons that can be taken to a special NPC or PLANET to get new features or cosmetics with each sayndicate, a few bounties with story strings give reload and new secondary alignment like Destiny 2, so players just dont base the game on mods. ALSO this can givecombatants. nav coordinates more meaningful "end-game" approach to darvo, and the kitcombat - whatwould give of compass trash or a special key to some "ultimate" for each warframe or upgrade based weapon's EXP, or treasurekit per tileset, reactants, or watever grass.a solid brainstorm idea, since abilities will be allowed on other warframes, helmnth or not.PVE/PVP experiences would need more enemy features.

[(XBOX)B100DBATH82]

Mr isnt a good gauge for an exp player. All mr means is youve lvled your frames and weapons. Its a gear counter not a proof of vet status. Cross save isnt a thing here as of yet which means if you jump platforms your reset to a "noob" i think not. Takes 4 weeks to hit mr 28 if you already know the game. Does 4 weeks in make me a vet? Not in my experience. Ive seen mr 28 "scrubs" so this concept proves nothing except that clown lvled up more gear then me not that he/she is a better player....