The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[Keyhound]

9 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

sorry, i meant elemental ward, i said vex armor because i swapped the names. cold elemental ward gives a more pratical survivability and is "snapier" to cast, not locking the player on those 3 secs to build the armor...

[thurmack]

Might be too late, but just a reminder to DE DEVS:

Some of those augments only work with other abilities in the warframe's kit.

e.g. Tribunal.

[RivaAurelius]

2 minutes ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Mr isnt a good gauge for an exp player. All mr means is youve lvled your frames and weapons. Its a gear counter not a proof of vet status. Cross save isnt a thing here as of yet which means if you jump platforms your reset to a "noob" i think not. Takes 4 weeks to hit mr 28 if you already know the game. Does 4 weeks in make me a vet? Not in my experience. Ive seen mr 28 "scrubs" so this concept proves nothing except that clown lvled up more gear then me not that he/she is a better player....

There was already a discussion about this earlier. MR isn't meant to be a gauge of skill, it is meant to be a measure of the investment of time and resources into the game. MR is the best way to gate higher level content because people who have been playing consistently for longer will have higher MRs and a better understanding of the game when compared to an MR8 who has been playing for 8 days. End of discussion, I am not having this silly back and forth again. 

[RivaAurelius]

4 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

sorry, i meant elemental ward, i said vex armor because i swapped the names. cold elemental ward gives a more pratical survivability and is "snapier" to cast, not locking the player on those 3 secs to build the armor...

Fire elemental ward on Inaros for the memes tho 😉

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

On 2020-08-19 at 3:24 PM, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

• Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
• Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
• Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

The Helminth system should be a milestone to look forward to for players who are deeper into the game. MR 15-20 is  perfect range to set the lockout for it. MR 8 is fairly early on in someones Warframe career.

If you promote players and give them the majority of the rewards early on; what else do they have to look forward to? You're potentially killing their time playing overall vs extending the MR requirement. Locking everything in MR ranks keeps people playing towards that specific goal or unlock or new weapons or systems. 

Here's a simple list of MR unlocks, not everything is listed.

MR 2 Trading

MR 3 Syndicates

MR 5 Archwing 

MR 8 Riven Mods (really should be MR 10-15), soon to be Helminth system (should be MR 15-20) (Two of the potentially most OP and controversial things about WF are at MR 8)

MR 10 Auto-slot Ayatan (I bet players look forward to MR 10 just for this right here)

MR 14 Unlock all research,market,syndicate weapons (Should be 20, some weapons need to be higher MR

MR 15 Unlocks All game content

MR 16 Unlocks Riven Mod Highest Rank (Should be the same level as what you unlock rivens at)

MR 20....

MR 25....

MR 30....

 

Is MR beyond 16 just a number? Do you want your players to keep playing beyond that? Majority of people by that time, know the ins and outs and cash flows from sales of higher MR players vs lower MR players may potentially fall off.  

 

[SordidDreams]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Regarding Nitain, that's a pretty bad take. 

I feel the same about your take. Or rather, you seem to have completely missed the point. Let me reiterate: Complaining that the Xiphos is rare in caches is like complaining that Nitain is rare in caches. Yes, but in each case there's an easier way to obtain it, so while the statement is true, it's irrelevant.

I don't understand why you went off on a tangent about how NW is a worse way of getting Nitain than the old alerts. I agree, it is, but it's still better than caches. Those four paragraphs, while true, do not refute the point I made.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, regarding monetization. 

So you had no problem with monetized revives, even when the 'death' was due to a bug, but you object to monetized cosmetics? And you think aura forma is bad even though you immediately counter by saying that it's basically irrelevant? I can't say I share your priorities or your reasoning.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

my favorite point is Braton Vandal

I really don't see the point. As you said, it's hot garbage and extremely tedious to acquire. Hmm, wherever have we seen that before? It's exactly the same thing as the Sibear and the Hema, my points about those apply to it as well.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE is rewarded in platinum sales for producing garbage.

Yes. Again, welcome to free-to-play.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

That is, until new players stop buying platinum and the wheels fall off this train.  No new blood means no cash infusion, and it's all centering around bad content stretched with poor RNG.  All of these problems are entirely glossed over because they made money when released, so that can't be the problem.  It's how we got Old Blood and Railjack....and how Scarlet Spear was allowed to flop so hard.  There's no need to alter course, until all of those bad decisions cascade into a dumpster fire.

You're prophesizing doom and gloom, but WF currently has more active players than it's ever had in its history by a significant margin.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

you get a rather large chunk of reputation to allow you to avoid relic farming

I get that. What I don't get is farming medallions. I tried that. Given the amount of time you spend looking for the damn things and how little standing they're worth, that time is far better spent farming the relics you need directly. The only benefit as far as I can tell is that they don't count for the daily standing limit, so you can stock up on them and use them to buy a ton of relic packs on day 1 when a new prime drops, in order to then sell the parts for plat while they're new and expensive. But in my experience there are better ways of farming plat.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

The point here is that warframe needs high level content, that isn't a bullet sponge, to support creep. 

If the high-level enemy is not a bullet sponge and can be killed with old gear, power creep is not necessary.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

In short, because they cannot create an infinitely rewarding item they can only have their new content be as endgame as the poor drop chances.  As such, we are stuck constantly without any endgame, waiting for the next content to grind. 

I don't know why you're talking about endgame, that wasn't the topic of our discussion, but yes, I agree that the lack of evergreen rewards is the problem, and as a result rivens remain the only 'endgame' in WF (and arcanes from eidolons, I suppose, for the three masochists who enjoy farming them). The thing is, "endgame" is such a poorly defined, nebulous term. When I look at other games that have endgame, what I see also boils down to nothing more than a giant grind. So I'm not really sure what people expect from DE and WF in that respect.

[master_of_destiny]

 

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

 

46 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I think he’s perfectly capable of giving an answer that would be useful. I don’t think that an answer exists that you would accept.

Just look at your first sentence. You can’t even accept what I wrote here and already replaced it with something else in your head.

It's amazing.  To prove that you're being dishonest in your argument all I have to do is multiquote.

 

I respond that you don't want to hear something, and that 200+ pages provide significant alternatives to nerfs.  You superimpose that everyone is arguing against nerfs you see as fine.  The argument is that there is no reason to nerf, if you did a better job of choosing powers with give-and-take.  Your retort is an attack on me, fantastic.  It's almost like I'm talking to two different people who need a straw man to make sure there's nothing they can be accountable for.

 

Here's the other side of that argument.  Steve wins by not engaging.  He by definition cannot provide a statement that is all things to all people.  With that I agree.  They've already used the "we're having internal talks" response, and what we have seen is that it means DE is not changing anything.  As such, his win is to not engage.  Instead, you say he can't win, then you say that expecting a response on Sunday is irrational.  19th this was updated, 20th and 21st were business days.  By that time there were more than 100 pages of additional feedback.

 

Well then, DE's forum post is their update.  Except, it isn't.  They've demonstrated that things posted here change at their convenience and their responses on social media are...frighteningly unmetered.  Let's just look at the response to criticism of the creator program, and the horribly structured response.  They didn't sit down, consider the information, and respond.  They provided immediate personal feedback, then had to have the community tell them to reign it in.  

So no, DE has a history of bad takes on social media.  No, they still don't understand that if they want a divorce from their game all they have to do is not reply on a weekend.  For the record, that weekend response makes it acceptable to believe they will respond on the weekend.  No, we still don't have a reasonable response despite 2+ business days to craft anything.  Is this them learning from Hello Games?  Well, no.  Silence only works if it's observed by everyone and Steve chose to bot observe it.  That's not irrational or unreasonable, it's taking someone at the value of their actions.

 

 

Regarding those actions....let's review.  DE originally said railjack was a large resource sink, and rewarding to experienced players.  They walked that back after players decided to not engage.  They sold this system as for experienced players (30% of content), then walked that back to basically anyone capable of getting to the node (10%of content).  They decide when to release content, but regularly do it at the end of the day.  This leads to late night patches, which is their planning and choice.  Finally, they sold us the Lich system as a potentially months long nemesis, and the delivery was a stripped down multiple layered RNG festival with instant death controlled 100% by RNG.  It took literal months for them to acknowledge players getting instantly killed because they had at best a 1 in 6 chance of getting the right roll (and more reasonably 1 in 336) was not rewarding but a bad slot machine.

 

I will enjoy you now suggesting that I'm entitled, and that it's unreasonable to expect someone not in PR to have any focus on PR.  For the record,CD Projekt is capable of releasing a game the media wants to crucify, yet they don't put out this level of bad reaction.

[Jarriaga]

1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs

You will never see a good argument because you already disagree with the idea of the nerfs being a bad thing. No argument will be good-enough to you.

[RivaAurelius]

4 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

 

It's amazing.  To prove that you're being dishonest in your argument all I have to do is multiquote.

 

I respond that you don't want to hear something, and that 200+ pages provide significant alternatives to nerfs.  You superimpose that everyone is arguing against nerfs you see as fine.  The argument is that there is no reason to nerf, if you did a better job of choosing powers with give-and-take.  Your retort is an attack on me, fantastic.  It's almost like I'm talking to two different people who need a straw man to make sure there's nothing they can be accountable for.

 

Here's the other side of that argument.  Steve wins by not engaging.  He by definition cannot provide a statement that is all things to all people.  With that I agree.  They've already used the "we're having internal talks" response, and what we have seen is that it means DE is not changing anything.  As such, his win is to not engage.  Instead, you say he can't win, then you say that expecting a response on Sunday is irrational.  19th this was updated, 20th and 21st were business days.  By that time there were more than 100 pages of additional feedback.

 

Well then, DE's forum post is their update.  Except, it isn't.  They've demonstrated that things posted here change at their convenience and their responses on social media are...frighteningly unmetered.  Let's just look at the response to criticism of the creator program, and the horribly structured response.  They didn't sit down, consider the information, and respond.  They provided immediate personal feedback, then had to have the community tell them to reign it in.  

So no, DE has a history of bad takes on social media.  No, they still don't understand that if they want a divorce from their game all they have to do is not reply on a weekend.  For the record, that weekend response makes it acceptable to believe they will respond on the weekend.  No, we still don't have a reasonable response despite 2+ business days to craft anything.  Is this them learning from Hello Games?  Well, no.  Silence only works if it's observed by everyone and Steve chose to bot observe it.  That's not irrational or unreasonable, it's taking someone at the value of their actions.

 

 

Regarding those actions....let's review.  DE originally said railjack was a large resource sink, and rewarding to experienced players.  They walked that back after players decided to not engage.  They sold this system as for experienced players (30% of content), then walked that back to basically anyone capable of getting to the node (10%of content).  They decide when to release content, but regularly do it at the end of the day.  This leads to late night patches, which is their planning and choice.  Finally, they sold us the Lich system as a potentially months long nemesis, and the delivery was a stripped down multiple layered RNG festival with instant death controlled 100% by RNG.  It took literal months for them to acknowledge players getting instantly killed because they had at best a 1 in 6 chance of getting the right roll (and more reasonably 1 in 336) was not rewarding but a bad slot machine.

 

I will enjoy you now suggesting that I'm entitled, and that it's unreasonable to expect someone not in PR to have any focus on PR.  For the record,CD Projekt is capable of releasing a game the media wants to crucify, yet they don't put out this level of bad reaction.

This. Forever this. I am printing this out and pinning it on my wall. 

[(XBOX)B100DBATH82]

5 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

There was already a discussion about this earlier. MR isn't meant to be a gauge of skill, it is meant to be a measure of the investment of time and resources into the game. MR is the best way to gate higher level content because people who have been playing consistently for longer will have higher MRs and a better understanding of the game when compared to an MR8 who has been playing for 8 days. End of discussion, I am not having this silly back and forth again. 

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. 

This is a feedback thread. Us contributing to this conversation is SUPPOSED to give them an idea as to what changes should be made. 

 

1 minute ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

Well that's vaguely terrifying. 

[selig_fay]

35 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

The elemental ward is not so bad. At least it has its niche, as you put the electric ward for Hildryn and feel the power of electricity.

[KlaussKlauss]

15 minutes ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Mr isnt a good gauge for an exp player. All mr means is youve lvled your frames and weapons. Its a gear counter not a proof of vet status. Cross save isnt a thing here as of yet which means if you jump platforms your reset to a "noob" i think not. Takes 4 weeks to hit mr 28 if you already know the game. Does 4 weeks in make me a vet? Not in my experience. Ive seen mr 28 "scrubs" so this concept proves nothing except that clown lvled up more gear then me not that he/she is a better player....

MR is not a good indicator of skill. Lack of MR is a potential indicator of lack of skill. Warframe doesn't require skill at all. The late game is kavat fashion, while 1 week players MR8s play Steel Path. Warframe is about consciousness, collecting and achieving goals in build, lore exploration, completion, etc. I am sorry, but Warframe is about PROGRESSION. 

MR is somewhat of a indicator for that. Excluding the rare cases, if you have a difficult mission (as if those exist), would you want a MR28 or a MR8 on you team? Would you play the russian roulette with 1 bullet in gun or with 5? You might live anyway, but what would you chose? 

1 minute ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

Then why do you post? I am the only one making the mistake of responding to you because your posts are so infuriating. Are you baiting? Are you some sort of basement troll? Or are these really you opinions? If you think DE doesn't care about our options, what makes you think we care about yours? 

[Keyhound]

6 minutes ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

as players, we are limited in the ways we can comunicate with them. in many ways players only have 3 options to send a mensage:
A) this forum.
B) through gameplay(currently impossible for obvious reasons.
C) abandoning the game(something many of us dont want to, because we do, genuinely love the game and dont want to hurt it anymore than it already is).

this forum is the way DE chose to comunicate the changes, and until we get it, and are able to test it(and ironically will take even longer, since nobody will be able to even build the system until after they reach rank 3... which will probably take around a week for most. and then they are limited to 1 interaction per day as well...), we cant do it any other way.

there is 2 other ways, if im being honest, making a video(which wont do anything unless its done by the big ones), OR twitter... and belive me, if you think this is bad, really hope DE dont let things scalate to there, or it will really turn into a shtshow.

[Grav_Starstrider]

4 hours ago, Zeniistar said:

And Steve responded with a le funny meme 

oof

I'm getting kinda tired of Steve seeming to completely dismiss people occasionally with mocking/vague gifs that don't contribute positively to the conversation.

@[DE]Rebecca @[DE]Megan  Can you please let us know if there's a subtext to that gif Steve posted that failed to come across?
There's lots of constructive feedback and valid opinions buried among all of the garbage responses, both in the thread and on social media, by Content Creators and various anonymous Tenno alike, and we want to know what DE thinks about our opinions, if there are additional explanations you can make, so that we can understand that these aren't flawed, un-thought-out decisions.

Like. Isn't MR8 way too early to give someone the ability to self-destruct a Warframe, when they wouldn't have even gotten through 26 Warframes? At MR10, if they ignored companions, weapons, and Primes, they'd get to around 42 Warframes (if I mathed correctly), which sounds like they'd've hopefully gotten to the point where they understood more Warframes more intimately, and be ready for the ability-replacing, Warframe-destroying decisions.

And why is it that DE is opting to nerf stand-out would-be-meta abilities when they're subsumed, rather than go the Trinity/Zephyr route of realizing "hey, these abilities could use a touch-up, and it'd make them worth subsuming too, so we don't have to make things more complicated by giving them nerfed versions of clearly meta abilities"? This kind of decision will make Warframe even more of a "Wiki guide open" game, or an even more greatly immersion-breaking game by having popups saying "this is weaker or more restricted because of balancing reasons, so it won't be as good or flexible as you expected it to be".

[Jarriaga]

9 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

The elemental ward is not so bad. At least it has its niche, as you put the electric ward for Hildryn and feel the power of electricity.

Niche is not good. That's precisely the problem with most of the selection because the ability might as well not exist if you don't naturally gravitate towards said niche to begin with vs more universal and general usefulness abilities like Roar. The fact you had to specify 1 use case being tied to 1 frame is precisely the problem with it because what is its benefit if I play Valkyr, Umbra and Wukong instead of Hildryn? Those are frames that are meant to be on the frontlines taking damage and have a very low shield pool.

Not to mention the build restructuring to make it work. 

[(PSN)phelan_1988]

40 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

Thank you for some much needed perspective. Let's not forget that if a player really wanted to, they could get to MR8 within the span of 8 days.

I made an alt account on PC because I wanted to see how much better it is than the PS4 version (much) and I absolutely did this. Now most new players cannot, but if they know what the efficient MR grind is to do, it's not super hard. I got that account to MR16 (so I had everything unlocked that I might want to trade for) in a few weeks. I think first picking up Warframe to Tigris Prime was a couple months or so, so even MR15 is a stretch for 'veteran players', back then I still thought Frost was a good warframe (before you ask, this was just after Plains, so no, he wasn't).

 

Realistically, I'm still putting Roar or Dispensary on the same frames I originally planned to, but holy crap am I glad I saw this before I farmed another Nidus. This still sucks. They promised updates to the subsumed abilities to make the system compelling and instead we get nerfs for it. I love the people at DE, I watch a lot of the streams, I UNDERSTAND Pablo's explanation that buffs are harder than nerfs, but buffs are what you promised three weeks ago. The subsume list is full of really bad options, stuff I'll only farm because I'm a sucker for the Lotus garden, anyone who took a passing glance at it would know what the overwhelming choices were going to be. I don't understand this.

 

edit re: Steve's gif... I am choosing to read this as "there's a massive firehose of feedback we just can't process all at once", but seeing as the gist of the comments have been fairly uniform I don't think I agree.

[RivaAurelius]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)phelan_1988 said:

I made an alt account on PC because I wanted to see how much better it is than the PS4 version (much) and I absolutely did this. Now most new players cannot, but if they know what the efficient MR grind is to do, it's not super hard. I got that account to MR16 (so I had everything unlocked that I might want to trade for) in a few weeks. I think first picking up Warframe to Tigris Prime was a couple months or so, so even MR15 is a stretch for 'veteran players', back then I still thought Frost was a good warframe (before you ask, this was just after Plains, so no, he wasn't).

 

Realistically, I'm still putting Roar or Dispensary on the same frames I originally planned to, but holy crap am I glad I saw this before I farmed another Nidus. This still sucks. They promised updates to the subsumed abilities to make the system compelling and instead we get nerfs for it. I love the people at DE, I watch a lot of the streams, I UNDERSTAND Pablo's explanation that buffs are harder than nerfs, but buffs are what you promised three weeks ago. The subsume list is full of really bad options, stuff I'll only farm because I'm a sucker for the Lotus garden, anyone who took a passing glance at it would know what the overwhelming choices were going to be. I don't understand this.

Lol I had already farmed the Nidus BP from Simaris and two of Nidus' components. He and revenant are the last two duplicates I need.

[Keyhound]

4 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Niche is not good. That's precisely the problem with most of the selection because the ability might as well not exist if you don't naturally gravitate towards said niche to begin with vs more universal and general usefulness abilities like Roar. The fact you had to specify 1 use case being tied to 1 frame is precisely the problem with it because what's its purpose if I play Valkyr, Umbra and Wukong? Frames that are on the frontlines taking damage and have a very low shield pool?

im ok with niche uses, the problem comes when there are abilities that dont even do that for a reason or another. decoy is an example that comes alot here, it not only has limited use, but even in the list, its inferior in every single way to other similar abilities. same can be said about desiccation(which has a healing so bad, its not even worth bringing up).

niche uses are good, they allow fun builds that arent top, but are... fun... which is why nerfing roar is dumb. because it serves no purpose other than nerfing roar.

people will pick roar because its roar.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

Niche is not good. That's precisely the problem with most of the selection because the ability might as well not exist if you don't naturally gravitate towards said niche to begin with vs more universal and general usefulness abilities like Roar. The fact you had to specify 1 use case being tied to 1 frame is precisely the problem with it because what's its purpose if I play Valkyr, Umbra and Wukong? Frames that are on the frontlines taking damage and have a very low shield pool?

All abilities are a niche. Including Roar. And I've explained many times why Roar is not a core skill and why I won't take it. I'm not going to repeat myself in this, because it's useless to explain this to people who only look at the damage figures and nothing else.

On the other hand, the elemental ward is a lot of niche for different gameplay. Just need a little imagination. And for those frames you named, you can get hp and firerock of nearby enemies, or armor and stun enemies with ice damage, or you can just get a quick weapon reload, which is also useful for some things. 

[IGN_Maverick]

... I'm with all you guys about the nerfs and the MR argument. I'm just not sure about the "DE not addressing the thread on the forum" is relevant. Take in account that even if those 6K replies where made by different players, it's not even close to 5% of the daily playerbase on one platform ( rough estimate ).
 

I think they take in account forum feedback to "an extent" and not as " this is what our playerbase feel ". If the argument " you shoul've wait the launch to decide to nerf stuff " is valid for them, then we also should now wait and try the nerfed stuff AND THEN we can legitimately ask for "official communication" or continue to complain.

The problem is if 100% of the potential players eligible for HoD will play the new content and use the Helmint, that is MORE OF A FEEDBACK than a couple thousand posts on the forum. 

What would you think guys? If I have 5% of my playerbase complaining before the new content launch on the forum, and then I have 100% partecipation after we lauch it, why would I bother changing stuff?

 

[Jarriaga]

10 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

All abilities are a niche. Including Roar. And I've explained many times why Roar is not a core skill and why I won't take it. I'm not going to repeat myself in this, because it's useless to explain this to people who only look at the damage figures and nothing else.

And yet none of the frames I use are top-tier damage dealers because I don't gravitate towards map nuking. That doesn't change that abilities such as Decoy and Mind Control and Ice Wave have little to no purpose in those frames "beyond being imaginative". If that's the barometer you want to go by then I might as well replace Exalted Blade and Hysteria with Decoy because it's imaginative and creative. 

10 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

On the other hand, the elemental ward is a lot of niche for different gameplay. Just need a little imagination. And for those frames you named, you can get hp and firerock of nearby enemies, or armor and stun enemies with ice damage, or you can just get a quick weapon reload, which is also useful for some things. 

The buffs don't work well without range, which is a stat that doesn't benefit the rest of those frame's abilities in any way, shape or form with the exception of Excal, and only if you rely on RB. If you have to handicap the rest of your build's performance for the sake of being creative, then the ability itself might as well not exist because of what you are losing in the process.

At that point I may consider finding a way to play with both hands tied to my back as I hang upside down from the ceiling because I'll be self-sabotaging myself just as much all in the name of being creative for the sake and explicit purpose of being creative with how I play.

If you can't see why other people have a problem with this then you do you.

[Keyhound]

5 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

All abilities are a niche. Including Roar. And I've explained many times why Roar is not a core skill and why I won't take it. I'm not going to repeat myself in this, because it's useless to explain this to people who only look at the damage figures and nothing else.

On the other hand, the elemental ward is a lot of niche for different gameplay. Just need a little imagination. And for those frames you named, you can get hp and firerock of nearby enemies, or armor and stun enemies with ice damage, or you can just get a quick weapon reload, which is also useful for some things. 

the reason i disagree with you on roar being niche is because there is a reason DE nerfed it. even if you arent picking it, you cant honestly say it wont be "overpicked" by most others. roar is a solid choice for a reason, and yeah, damage is important, some frames really need that damage. even if many doesnt, its still a solid pick for the fact its a general buff to everything, including weak weapons that do gain alot from roar's buff.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

And yet none of the frames I use are top-tier damage dealers because I don't gravitate towards map nuking. That doesn't change that abilities such as Decoy and Mind Control and Ice Wave have little to no purpose in those frames "beyond being imaginative". If that's the barometer you want to go by then I might as well replace Exalted Blade and Hysteria with Decoy because it's imaginative and creative.

This does not apply to the elemental ward in any way.

3 minutes ago, Jarriaga said:

The buffs don't work well without range, which is a stat that doesn't benefit the rest of those frame's abilities in any way, shape or form with the exception of Excal, and only if you rely on RB. If you have to handicap the rest of your build's performance for the sake of being creative, then the ability itself might as well not exist because of what you are losing in the process. If you can't see why other people have a problem with this then you do you.

I don't need a range to deflect projectiles back at the enemy, because it has an infinite range. On the other hand, this rule applies to all abilities except the Tribute.

[LuckyCharm]

Isnt it a bit late tho to be nerfing things when the updates supposed to release tomorrow? 200 pages of feedback, a couple weeks to look at it, and yet all the silence is deafening.