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Is Helminth a Cat or Dog ‘Person’?

Well, you’ll find out… 

 

 

Huuuuuuh... why do I get the impression this *implies* we can uhhh... sacrifice our pets at some point?

further down the line...?

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vor 4 Minuten schrieb Noel_Woodsoul:

That's still just another damage-buff.

No, it’s not. They function quite differently. You described the mechanics yourself, you know the abilities aren’t the same. I don’t see a point in continuing this conversation on that basis.

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9 minutes ago, NovusKnight said:

Is Helminth a Cat or Dog ‘Person’?

Well, you’ll find out… 

Huuuuuuh... why do I get the impression this *implies* we can uhhh... sacrifice our pets at some point?

further down the line...?

Yeah, does seem to suggest that. Perhaps that is going to be the "Consign option" going forward? Instead of sending them to the Lotus, feeding them to Helminth?

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6 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

No, it’s not. They function quite differently. You described the mechanics yourself, you know the abilities aren’t the same. I don’t see a point in continuing this conversation on that basis.

Let's agree to disagree then.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the nerfs themselves though, DE has been completely silent for over two full workdays and I think it is about time they at least pop in with a "We're discussing it and will get back to you with a full response."

If they decide stick to their guns, fine. I'll be disappointed, but fine. At this point I just want to know that they're not just ignoring the community.

Edited by Noel_Woodsoul
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27 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

defy, what is defy even good for? the only frame that will probably make use of it is rhino, for a safe buffer in between iron skin casts, specially on roar builds. most other frames will be much better using vex armor instead, the buff doesnt even last that long to make it good without duration to begin with! 25 seconds, and having to wait 3 seconds with the only thing you can do is walk very slowly...

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

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1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

I have seen MANY a good argument against these nerfs. I have ALSO seen you be disingenuous about engaging in proper discourse in these forum posts. No matter how good an argument against your point of view is, you will side step it, as you have been seen to do. You ARE NOT the arbitter of what is or is not a good argument, and quite frankly, the anger about these nerfs is justified. Nerfing good abilities does not suddenly make bad abilities good. Nobody is going to pick decoy just because DE nerfed roar. They should have buffed the bad abilities and left the good ones as they were. 

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1 hour ago, Noel_Woodsoul said:

The nerfs were announced on Wednsday, and the response was immediate and relentless, both in this thread and in the form of Youtube videos by many of the well known community members.

DE had all of Thursday and Friday to respond.

To be quite frank, they've been doing this for many years and should have seen this reaction coming. A short "we are discussing this internally and will have a statement soon" should not be too much to ask, to show that they are not ignoring our thoughts on this matter (even if some are frankly being quite toxic in expressing them).

Not to mention they've been posting hype on their official warframe twitter over the weekend, which shows they could have addressed the feedback then as well. 

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52 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Options. Diversity. Choice. Show me where they said that this is supposed to fix bad frames. You can’t because they didn’t. That this is supposed to fix all issues with Warframe abilities and will serve as a replacement for reworks was just something people on this forum read into it - something brought to you by the same community that also seriously claims that nerfs happen because DE doesn’t want them having fun.

If this was about Options, about Diversity, and about Choice, they would work to give us more GOOD options instead of working to make every option BAD. 

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Perspective for some people. The total XP required to attain mastery rank 8 is 160,000. Completing all of the junctions gets you 26,000.  All that leaves is for someone to level up 9 war frames and 22 weapons. This also includes the Archwing(+2/22 weaps) that you're required to get, and a kubrow that you're required to get.

This system is stronger than rivens and has half the prerequisites

Oh yeah and they give you a sentinel and its  weapon, and there are 12 or 13 weapons like the MK-1 set PURCHASABLE WITH CREDITS from the market. Dont tell me that's not all new player items. MR 8 is barely stepping into mid game. I'd stake money on the statement that most under MR10 don't even have a solid understanding of how the damage system currently works in the game.

Just so everyone is aware the XP for MR15 is 810,000. Wfs are 6,000xp,  weapons 3,000.

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14 minutes ago, Noel_Woodsoul said:

Let's agree to disagree then.

Regardless of our personal feelings on the nerfs themselves though, DE has been completely silent for over two full workdays and I think it is about time they at least pop in with a "We're discussing it and will get back to you with a full response."

If they decide stick to their guns, fine. I'll be disappointed, but fine. At this point I just want to know that they're not just ignoring the community.

Fingers crossed they at least address the feedback. 

Edited by DeusTurbo
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Just now, (XB1)AbyssalRaven922 said:

Perspective for some people. The total XP required to attain mastery rank 8 is 160,000. Completing all of the junctions gets you 26,000.  All that leaves is for someone to level up 9 war frames and 22 weapons. This also includes the Archwing(+2/22 weaps) that you're required to get, and a kubrow that you're required to get.

This system is stronger than rivens and has half the prerequisites

Oh yeah and they give you a sentinel and its  weapon, and there are 12 or 13 weapons like the MK-1 set PURCHASABLE WITH CREDITS from the market. Dont tell me that's not all new player items. MR 8 is barely stepping into mid game. I'd stake money on the statement that most under MR10 don't even have a solid understanding of how the damage system currently works in the game.

Just so everyone is aware the XP for MR15 is 810,000. Wfs are 6,000xp,  weapons 3,000.

Thank you for some much needed perspective. Let's not forget that if a player really wanted to, they could get to MR8 within the span of 8 days.

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The enemy soldiers would also subject to experiments and new ships, so each tile set should get some offending denominators to make bounties and missions less predictable for the helmith system to work giving those old areas a quick rewash and environmental variables for the doors and computer so players dont just rushout to extraction if they want to solo or stay in a mission to gather fungus, or fuel from fishing and minning, machines, or datakeys, and ammunition to forge new blueprint caskets and swap-gear, secondary weapons and the heavy gun would need a few new mods, and Zaw also would need to be more mainstream, i think players just arriving at cetus and fortuna would need a kitgun or a few free items to equip with the coming themes of GARA, and the other story warframes a few themed accessories and weapons to collect for the orbiter are a great start to give each player a chance when talking to the NPC in those areas or planet's relays other options and temporary items/spectre/trade offer tutorials, and quickswap functions like how emotes work in the game, this can be used to open doors and operate machinery in the cities/villages and give each station meaning, which solves alot of mysterious stuff in town, that way you know what players really want, since not everyone is trained to chat or talk to strangers, also voice chat seems mysterious, maybe each warframe can eventually have voice masking or some text feature packages taht can be bought or earned like the smilie faces and fonts or UI/minimap and mods to unlock which can be themed, i think the player profiles are end-game as fashion frame, so those players can get some more intriging clan borders and HUD features which shimmer or are premium as the achiements allow, or those chest tattooes come with passive functions as keys and allow useless items in the game to feature more unlockable waypoints and sensory feature, that maybe"like how  of the melee-stances use endo to aquire FX and other optinal things, the  another tier based rewards or passive is unmasked, so players would get a hint on weapons that can be taken to a special NPC or PLANET to get new features or cosmetics with each sayndicate, a few bounties with story strings give reload and new secondary alignment like Destiny 2, so players just dont base the game on mods. ALSO this can givecombatants. nav coordinates more meaningful "end-game" approach to darvo, and the kitcombat - whatwould give of compass trash or a special key to some "ultimate" for each warframe or upgrade based weapon's EXP, or treasurekit per tileset, reactants, or watever grass.a solid brainstorm idea, since abilities will be allowed on other warframes, helmnth or not.PVE/PVP experiences would need more enemy features.

Edited by SnakeBadger
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Mr isnt a good gauge for an exp player. All mr means is youve lvled your frames and weapons. Its a gear counter not a proof of vet status. Cross save isnt a thing here as of yet which means if you jump platforms your reset to a "noob" i think not. Takes 4 weeks to hit mr 28 if you already know the game. Does 4 weeks in make me a vet? Not in my experience. Ive seen mr 28 "scrubs" so this concept proves nothing except that clown lvled up more gear then me not that he/she is a better player....

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9 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

sorry, i meant elemental ward, i said vex armor because i swapped the names. cold elemental ward gives a more pratical survivability and is "snapier" to cast, not locking the player on those 3 secs to build the armor...

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Mr isnt a good gauge for an exp player. All mr means is youve lvled your frames and weapons. Its a gear counter not a proof of vet status. Cross save isnt a thing here as of yet which means if you jump platforms your reset to a "noob" i think not. Takes 4 weeks to hit mr 28 if you already know the game. Does 4 weeks in make me a vet? Not in my experience. Ive seen mr 28 "scrubs" so this concept proves nothing except that clown lvled up more gear then me not that he/she is a better player....

There was already a discussion about this earlier. MR isn't meant to be a gauge of skill, it is meant to be a measure of the investment of time and resources into the game. MR is the best way to gate higher level content because people who have been playing consistently for longer will have higher MRs and a better understanding of the game when compared to an MR8 who has been playing for 8 days. End of discussion, I am not having this silly back and forth again. 

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4 minutes ago, Keyhound said:

sorry, i meant elemental ward, i said vex armor because i swapped the names. cold elemental ward gives a more pratical survivability and is "snapier" to cast, not locking the player on those 3 secs to build the armor...

Fire elemental ward on Inaros for the memes tho 😉

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On 2020-08-19 at 3:24 PM, [DE]Megan said:

To offer further clarification on why we changed the Mastery Rank Prerequisite to MR 8:

There's many factors that come into play in order to engage with the Helminth system, such as:

  • Having an ongoing supply of Resources that you don't need elsewhere to feed your Helminth
  • Working your way up the Helminth rankings to unlock more features
  • Having Warframes your ready/willing to Subsume

Looking at the above, we can see that higher rank players will be more equipped to offer these things to Helminth out the gate, where a MR 8 player will start with more accessible/cheaper Helminth Abilities first before diving deeper. Thus allowing MR 8 players to participate in Helminth and grow as they go.

The Helminth system should be a milestone to look forward to for players who are deeper into the game. MR 15-20 is  perfect range to set the lockout for it. MR 8 is fairly early on in someones Warframe career.

If you promote players and give them the majority of the rewards early on; what else do they have to look forward to? You're potentially killing their time playing overall vs extending the MR requirement. Locking everything in MR ranks keeps people playing towards that specific goal or unlock or new weapons or systems. 

Here's a simple list of MR unlocks, not everything is listed.

MR 2 Trading

MR 3 Syndicates

MR 5 Archwing 

MR 8 Riven Mods (really should be MR 10-15), soon to be Helminth system (should be MR 15-20) (Two of the potentially most OP and controversial things about WF are at MR 8)

MR 10 Auto-slot Ayatan (I bet players look forward to MR 10 just for this right here)

MR 14 Unlock all research,market,syndicate weapons (Should be 20, some weapons need to be higher MR

MR 15 Unlocks All game content

MR 16 Unlocks Riven Mod Highest Rank (Should be the same level as what you unlock rivens at)

MR 20....

MR 25....

MR 30....

 

Is MR beyond 16 just a number? Do you want your players to keep playing beyond that? Majority of people by that time, know the ins and outs and cash flows from sales of higher MR players vs lower MR players may potentially fall off.  

 

Edited by (XB1)AMONGTHEWEAK
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1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Regarding Nitain, that's a pretty bad take. 

I feel the same about your take. Or rather, you seem to have completely missed the point. Let me reiterate: Complaining that the Xiphos is rare in caches is like complaining that Nitain is rare in caches. Yes, but in each case there's an easier way to obtain it, so while the statement is true, it's irrelevant.

I don't understand why you went off on a tangent about how NW is a worse way of getting Nitain than the old alerts. I agree, it is, but it's still better than caches. Those four paragraphs, while true, do not refute the point I made.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

Now, regarding monetization. 

So you had no problem with monetized revives, even when the 'death' was due to a bug, but you object to monetized cosmetics? And you think aura forma is bad even though you immediately counter by saying that it's basically irrelevant? I can't say I share your priorities or your reasoning.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

my favorite point is Braton Vandal

I really don't see the point. As you said, it's hot garbage and extremely tedious to acquire. Hmm, wherever have we seen that before? It's exactly the same thing as the Sibear and the Hema, my points about those apply to it as well.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

DE is rewarded in platinum sales for producing garbage.

Yes. Again, welcome to free-to-play.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

That is, until new players stop buying platinum and the wheels fall off this train.  No new blood means no cash infusion, and it's all centering around bad content stretched with poor RNG.  All of these problems are entirely glossed over because they made money when released, so that can't be the problem.  It's how we got Old Blood and Railjack....and how Scarlet Spear was allowed to flop so hard.  There's no need to alter course, until all of those bad decisions cascade into a dumpster fire.

You're prophesizing doom and gloom, but WF currently has more active players than it's ever had in its history by a significant margin.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

you get a rather large chunk of reputation to allow you to avoid relic farming

I get that. What I don't get is farming medallions. I tried that. Given the amount of time you spend looking for the damn things and how little standing they're worth, that time is far better spent farming the relics you need directly. The only benefit as far as I can tell is that they don't count for the daily standing limit, so you can stock up on them and use them to buy a ton of relic packs on day 1 when a new prime drops, in order to then sell the parts for plat while they're new and expensive. But in my experience there are better ways of farming plat.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

The point here is that warframe needs high level content, that isn't a bullet sponge, to support creep. 

If the high-level enemy is not a bullet sponge and can be killed with old gear, power creep is not necessary.

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

In short, because they cannot create an infinitely rewarding item they can only have their new content be as endgame as the poor drop chances.  As such, we are stuck constantly without any endgame, waiting for the next content to grind. 

I don't know why you're talking about endgame, that wasn't the topic of our discussion, but yes, I agree that the lack of evergreen rewards is the problem, and as a result rivens remain the only 'endgame' in WF (and arcanes from eidolons, I suppose, for the three masochists who enjoy farming them). The thing is, "endgame" is such a poorly defined, nebulous term. When I look at other games that have endgame, what I see also boils down to nothing more than a giant grind. So I'm not really sure what people expect from DE and WF in that respect.

Edited by SordidDreams
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1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs. In fact, I‘ve not seen a single attempt at a good argument against these nerfs. Instead it’s all the same rant against the entire concept of nerfs or the entire concept of balancing over and over and over again, interspersed with the odd claim that the nerfs have somehow simultaneously made the nerfed abilities utterly useless while also changing nothing, and then starting Sunday complaints that there was no response despite all the spam.

 

46 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I think he’s perfectly capable of giving an answer that would be useful. I don’t think that an answer exists that you would accept.

Just look at your first sentence. You can’t even accept what I wrote here and already replaced it with something else in your head.

It's amazing.  To prove that you're being dishonest in your argument all I have to do is multiquote.

 

I respond that you don't want to hear something, and that 200+ pages provide significant alternatives to nerfs.  You superimpose that everyone is arguing against nerfs you see as fine.  The argument is that there is no reason to nerf, if you did a better job of choosing powers with give-and-take.  Your retort is an attack on me, fantastic.  It's almost like I'm talking to two different people who need a straw man to make sure there's nothing they can be accountable for.

 

Here's the other side of that argument.  Steve wins by not engaging.  He by definition cannot provide a statement that is all things to all people.  With that I agree.  They've already used the "we're having internal talks" response, and what we have seen is that it means DE is not changing anything.  As such, his win is to not engage.  Instead, you say he can't win, then you say that expecting a response on Sunday is irrational.  19th this was updated, 20th and 21st were business days.  By that time there were more than 100 pages of additional feedback.

 

Well then, DE's forum post is their update.  Except, it isn't.  They've demonstrated that things posted here change at their convenience and their responses on social media are...frighteningly unmetered.  Let's just look at the response to criticism of the creator program, and the horribly structured response.  They didn't sit down, consider the information, and respond.  They provided immediate personal feedback, then had to have the community tell them to reign it in.  

So no, DE has a history of bad takes on social media.  No, they still don't understand that if they want a divorce from their game all they have to do is not reply on a weekend.  For the record, that weekend response makes it acceptable to believe they will respond on the weekend.  No, we still don't have a reasonable response despite 2+ business days to craft anything.  Is this them learning from Hello Games?  Well, no.  Silence only works if it's observed by everyone and Steve chose to bot observe it.  That's not irrational or unreasonable, it's taking someone at the value of their actions.

 

 

Regarding those actions....let's review.  DE originally said railjack was a large resource sink, and rewarding to experienced players.  They walked that back after players decided to not engage.  They sold this system as for experienced players (30% of content), then walked that back to basically anyone capable of getting to the node (10%of content).  They decide when to release content, but regularly do it at the end of the day.  This leads to late night patches, which is their planning and choice.  Finally, they sold us the Lich system as a potentially months long nemesis, and the delivery was a stripped down multiple layered RNG festival with instant death controlled 100% by RNG.  It took literal months for them to acknowledge players getting instantly killed because they had at best a 1 in 6 chance of getting the right roll (and more reasonably 1 in 336) was not rewarding but a bad slot machine.

 

I will enjoy you now suggesting that I'm entitled, and that it's unreasonable to expect someone not in PR to have any focus on PR.  For the record,CD Projekt is capable of releasing a game the media wants to crucify, yet they don't put out this level of bad reaction.

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1 hour ago, Krankbert said:

I’ve not seen a single good argument against these nerfs

You will never see a good argument because you already disagree with the idea of the nerfs being a bad thing. No argument will be good-enough to you.

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4 minutes ago, master_of_destiny said:

 

 

It's amazing.  To prove that you're being dishonest in your argument all I have to do is multiquote.

 

I respond that you don't want to hear something, and that 200+ pages provide significant alternatives to nerfs.  You superimpose that everyone is arguing against nerfs you see as fine.  The argument is that there is no reason to nerf, if you did a better job of choosing powers with give-and-take.  Your retort is an attack on me, fantastic.  It's almost like I'm talking to two different people who need a straw man to make sure there's nothing they can be accountable for.

 

Here's the other side of that argument.  Steve wins by not engaging.  He by definition cannot provide a statement that is all things to all people.  With that I agree.  They've already used the "we're having internal talks" response, and what we have seen is that it means DE is not changing anything.  As such, his win is to not engage.  Instead, you say he can't win, then you say that expecting a response on Sunday is irrational.  19th this was updated, 20th and 21st were business days.  By that time there were more than 100 pages of additional feedback.

 

Well then, DE's forum post is their update.  Except, it isn't.  They've demonstrated that things posted here change at their convenience and their responses on social media are...frighteningly unmetered.  Let's just look at the response to criticism of the creator program, and the horribly structured response.  They didn't sit down, consider the information, and respond.  They provided immediate personal feedback, then had to have the community tell them to reign it in.  

So no, DE has a history of bad takes on social media.  No, they still don't understand that if they want a divorce from their game all they have to do is not reply on a weekend.  For the record, that weekend response makes it acceptable to believe they will respond on the weekend.  No, we still don't have a reasonable response despite 2+ business days to craft anything.  Is this them learning from Hello Games?  Well, no.  Silence only works if it's observed by everyone and Steve chose to bot observe it.  That's not irrational or unreasonable, it's taking someone at the value of their actions.

 

 

Regarding those actions....let's review.  DE originally said railjack was a large resource sink, and rewarding to experienced players.  They walked that back after players decided to not engage.  They sold this system as for experienced players (30% of content), then walked that back to basically anyone capable of getting to the node (10%of content).  They decide when to release content, but regularly do it at the end of the day.  This leads to late night patches, which is their planning and choice.  Finally, they sold us the Lich system as a potentially months long nemesis, and the delivery was a stripped down multiple layered RNG festival with instant death controlled 100% by RNG.  It took literal months for them to acknowledge players getting instantly killed because they had at best a 1 in 6 chance of getting the right roll (and more reasonably 1 in 336) was not rewarding but a bad slot machine.

 

I will enjoy you now suggesting that I'm entitled, and that it's unreasonable to expect someone not in PR to have any focus on PR.  For the record,CD Projekt is capable of releasing a game the media wants to crucify, yet they don't put out this level of bad reaction.

This. Forever this. I am printing this out and pinning it on my wall. 

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5 minutes ago, DeusTurbo said:

There was already a discussion about this earlier. MR isn't meant to be a gauge of skill, it is meant to be a measure of the investment of time and resources into the game. MR is the best way to gate higher level content because people who have been playing consistently for longer will have higher MRs and a better understanding of the game when compared to an MR8 who has been playing for 8 days. End of discussion, I am not having this silly back and forth again. 

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

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1 minute ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Sorry im not reading all the bs back and forth. The problem with alot of the players is yall believe anything posted here is going to change ANYTHING. In the end they own it and youll have to decide to live with it or go play something new. 

This is a feedback thread. Us contributing to this conversation is SUPPOSED to give them an idea as to what changes should be made. 

 

1 minute ago, (XB1)B100DBATH82 said:

Its DE scream to loud theyll nerf your voice too.

Well that's vaguely terrifying. 

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35 minutes ago, Kald-Wing said:

Vex Armor would indeed be useful, if it wasn't for the fact that we aren't getting Vex Armor, we're getting Elemental Ward from subsuming Chroma.

The elemental ward is not so bad. At least it has its niche, as you put the electric ward for Hildryn and feel the power of electricity.

Edited by selig_fay
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