The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[papry]

il y a 1 minute, Krankbert a dit :

I don't think you know what "ad hominem attack" means.

Feel free to expand.

[SnowKeeper]

And look who's talking about strawman arguments and dishonesty. 

Don't try to argue with him, the sheer hypocrisy of his is astonishing.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Part of the problem is that even if roar is nerfed down to 5% damage boost or something, it's still more useful than something like decoy in most use cases. 5% more damage is still 5% more damage.

The only real way I can see for DE to actually widen the meta for helminth like they say they want is by making other choices good, not by nerfing already good choices. They can nerf roar and the other top picks into the ground and that won't make people start playing with the bottom of the barrel, it'll just make people ignore the whole system as worthless; see how players already react to mastery fodder weapons.

But if Ice Wave got changed to have a weaken effect on enemies affected by it (ie enemies take more damage from all subsequent attacks), I could see it competing with roar. If spectorage was changed to work sort of like Nidus' 1, giving energy back for every enemy caught by it (perhaps make it so that every mirror broken by enemy fire grants a certain amount of energy?), that could be useful, adding a non-zenurik/non-rage/non-arcane energize method of replenishing energy on the go. The key here is to make the bad powers good and worth using; that is the only way you're going to have players slotting them in. After all, the helminth system needs grinding and involves tearing out one of the powers your frame already has. Some frames have clear crap powers that can be replaced, but on others this is a very tough decision and major opportunity cost.  

But as it stands, most of these abilities suck. You've got Roar and the like in the "actually worth using in general" pile, you've got a few situationally useful ones like molt w/ healing molt augment, and then you've got a vast pile of crap powers like mind control, decoy, etc. No amount of nerfing Roar will make people want to pop in mind control.

[Keyhound]

Just now, Krankbert said:

Anser me something: Did they actually buff Energy Vampire or is that just an incidential change that happened when they changed Viral status effects.

oh no, it was on purpose, the ability does 25% true damage at 100% power, if you put a build with 200% str, it will deal 50% true damage(meaning damage directly on health), with enough viral procs, the enemy will then take 100% from ev.

make it a minimal duration build, and the enemy basically dies as fast as the ability lasts.

[Krankbert]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Siaw:

Where did you learn this word? Because everytime someone “debunks” your logic you use the “strawman” argument as a last resort.

And if you’re so kind to quote the replies then do so with the ones that make your logic seems stupid and by your owns words “debunk” those “strawman arguments”

A "strawman argument" is an argument you make up and present as the opponent's and then debunk. For example, people here pretend that I said that the nerf would make all abilities useful, then point to how Decoy is still useless as a counterargument to their own made-up argument, and then pretend that they just proved me wrong.

  

Gerade eben schrieb Keyhound:

oh no, it was on purpose, the ability does 25% true damage at 100% power, if you put a build with 200% str, it will deal 50% true damage(meaning damage directly on health), with enough viral procs, the enemy will then take 100% from ev.

make it a minimal duration build, and the enemy basically dies as fast as the ability lasts.

How do you know it was on purpose? What was changed specifically to buff Energy Vampire? Because so far you only describe how Energy Vampire has worked for who knows how long and how viral status was changed completely independently.

[iSiawPrime]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I don't think you know what "ad hominem attack" means.

Oh savior teach us the definition of ad hominem, we beg you to share your wisdom with us.

[skyrimplaier]

5 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I don't think you know what "ad hominem attack" means.

 

8 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

I don't care. I never said the nerf would make all abilities useful, and the fact that you keep ignoring this and instead insist on debunking this strawman argument again and again tells me everything I need to know about you and your opinion. If you had an actual argument, you would have posted it instead of going on with this intellectually dishonest crap.

"marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made"

you literally attacked "him and his argument" quite literally an ad hominem attack

[Krankbert]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb skyrimplaier:

 

"marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made"

you literally attacked "him and his argument" quite literally an ad hominem attack

Keyword is "rather than". I didn't attack his argument based on who he is, I inferred something about him based on how he's arguing.

  

vor 8 Minuten schrieb (NSW)Siaw:

Oh savior teach us the definition of ad hominem, we beg you to share your wisdom with us.

I get the distinct impression that you're so especially obnoxious because you know fully well that you're unblockable because of a forum bug.

[papry]

il y a 9 minutes, Krankbert a dit :

A "strawman argument" is an argument you make up and present as the opponent's and then debunk. For example, people here pretend that I said that the nerf would make all abilities useful, then point to how Decoy is still useless as a counterargument to their own made-up argument, and then pretend that they just proved me wrong.

Okay fair point but first we tried to explain that the nerf will :

1) either have no impact because the damage is still so good that the other ability will still be regarded as useless if the nerf is too little.

2) the helminth system will be regarded as useless if the nerf is too much (because why bother with a ton of crappy ability)

Then you tried to explain that the nerf would be effective at which I asked proof.

Granted : none of us can provide any because the system isn't out.

So why not just releasing as is & adjust everything later : buff & nerf accordingly at that time ?

People aren't against nerf when they are justified but this one seems really missguided.

[skyrimplaier]

3 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

Keyword is "rather than". I didn't attack his argument based on who he is, I inferred something about who he is based on how consistently dishonest he's arguing.

it still stands because you never once stated a counter point to his argument you judged his character for arguing your point which is what ad hominem attack 

plainly states that "marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made "

judgement of ones character without actually arguing with the person your still wrong here.it has nothing to with bashing his arguement by his character, you are so horribly wrong its not even funny

[Krankbert]

vor 1 Minute schrieb papry:

Okay fair point but first we tried to explain that the nerf will :

Your entire argument is based on black-and-white-thinking, from the base assumption that ablities are either as good as Roar or as bad as Decoy to the fact that you present two scenarios and completely disregard the possibility that the nerf might be neither too much nor too few.

[iSiawPrime]

3 minutes ago, skyrimplaier said:

you are so horribly wrong its not even funny

It’s like talking to a wall, but I’m pretty sure the wall would give better arguments.

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb skyrimplaier:

it still stands because you never once stated a counter point to his argument

Yeah, no, I don't accept that. The fact that there are a large number of abilities that are useful while they only ever talk about Decoy is something I brought up numerous times during the last few pages. If you want to make sweeping claims about the content of my comments here, maybe try reading them.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Tenno, 

The Helminth System has quite a remarkable timeline - from it’s completely unexpected (and grotesque) debut at TennoCon on August 1, to the full Dev Workshop on Aug 12, to a follow up Aug 19. And now, 1 day before release, a recap on where things are.

From Aug 1 to Aug 12 - Helminth was entirely speculation - imaginations wild with base knowledge that only 1 ‘non-ultimate’ nor ‘signature ability’ per Warframe would be offered. 

Aug 12 - we released the Dev Workshop early due to the overwhelming interest in the system, we wanted to provide as much information as possible. This early release without clear and explicit balance stipulations was our first mistake. Even within the workshop, we had extremely guarded and obvious indications we were watching Damage Buffing abilities closely (i.e ‘Only 1 Damage Ability per Warframe section’). 

From Aug 13 - Aug 19 - Helminth was all fact-based excitement in what choices you’d make. In addition to player commentary, our own internal tests skewed intensely toward Damage buffing abilities in this system after the list was circulated. (P.S don’t blame community members). 

From Aug 19 - now - a sentiment detour due to changes to the damage buffing abilities has resulted in a skepticism of how powerful things will actually be, and ultimately the appeal of the system. We have to be straight-forward that transparency can be a double edged sword for us, but our hope is that feedback will be provided in good faith once you’ve had practical experience with the Helminth System. Time has shown us it is always, always, a better practice to start with a baseline power level, and review after practical usage data and stats. 

We are locking this thread, and will re-open a Mega Thread when launch hits! Cheers, Tenno!