The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

Mr 15???? Experienced players? really? the experience should be hours in the game + money spent. not that number! this is unfare, I feel cheated! 

 

[mikakor]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I know you can't make it deader lol but I do think the meta will be shortened even more.

i think that's where we enter in straight up opposite ^^" lets take exemple with Chroma. nothing for now equals to chroma. he is the one to, lets say, one shot eidolon limbs. what will this update do? make it overkill. overkill isn't needed. and he's strong. but he could become TOO strong, in the sense that his strenght won't be of use anymore. or rather, that other people will be able to do Chroma's job. lets say, frames that were not able, before. that's why i say that it will shorten the gap. the strong warframes will continue being good, as more power for them is useless ( quite literally, the enemies aren't becoming stronger ) and weaker frames will take it's place from time to time, broadening the meta.
 

 

6 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

And more so, the heavy handed nature of their inevitable nerfs could likely stuff up something else. Spaghetti code n all.

 

again, this is a system that will be made to work in the future. it's not a one and done, it's something that will constantly be balanced and shifted. when an ability will get changed on a warframe by default, it will very well be changed here, too. and nrefing the system too heavily would be a disadvantage for DE. they want people to use it, after all. even after months. because even after months, there will be new things to add to the system, so it is in their interest to keep it strong.

[1pTrust]

2 minutes ago, mikakor said:

i think that's where we enter in straight up opposite ^^" lets take exemple with Chroma. nothing for now equals to chroma. he is the one to, lets say, one shot eidolon limbs. what will this update do? make it overkill. overkill isn't needed. and he's strong. but he could become TOO strong, in the sense that his strenght won't be of use anymore. or rather, that other people will be able to do Chroma's job. lets say, frames that were not able, before. that's why i say that it will shorten the gap. the strong warframes will continue being good, as more power for them is useless ( quite literally, the enemies aren't becoming stronger ) and weaker frames will take it's place from time to time, broadening the meta.
 

 

 

again, this is a system that will be made to work in the future. it's not a one and done, it's something that will constantly be balanced and shifted. when an ability will get changed on a warframe by default, it will very well be changed here, too. and nrefing the system too heavily would be a disadvantage for DE. they want people to use it, after all. even after months. because even after months, there will be new things to add to the system, so it is in their interest to keep it strong.

That's what they said about rivens and look at where we are at now. I hope I can buy warframes for 1 plat in this update. Would be hella mad 😄 

[mikakor]

1 minute ago, 1pTrust said:

That's what they said about rivens and look at where we are at now. I hope I can buy warframes for 1 plat in this update. Would be hella mad 😄 

except rivens are pure RNG. this isn't. you know what you're getting from the get go.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, mikakor said:

i think that's where we enter in straight up opposite ^^" lets take exemple with Chroma. nothing for now equals to chroma. he is the one to, lets say, one shot eidolon limbs. what will this update do? make it overkill. overkill isn't needed. and he's strong. but he could become TOO strong, in the sense that his strenght won't be of use anymore. or rather, that other people will be able to do Chroma's job. lets say, frames that were not able, before. that's why i say that it will shorten the gap. the strong warframes will continue being good, as more power for them is useless ( quite literally, the enemies aren't becoming stronger ) and weaker frames will take it's place from time to time, broadening the meta.
 

 

 

again, this is a system that will be made to work in the future. it's not a one and done, it's something that will constantly be balanced and shifted. when an ability will get changed on a warframe by default, it will very well be changed here, too. and nrefing the system too heavily would be a disadvantage for DE. they want people to use it, after all. even after months. because even after months, there will be new things to add to the system, so it is in their interest to keep it strong.

Chroma hasn't been the meta for Eidolons for over a year now. But on the topic, sure Chroma is strong but if I can take a warframe that has 3 strong abilities and add another strong ability, why would I ever use a frame that has 2 strong abilities and used to have only one?

agreed it will be nerfed and balanced but with their track record, I reckon they'll manage to bugger up plenty along the way and it will become content that will be "revisited" you know, like every other content island and forgotton mechanic that already exists.

[Sahansral]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb mikakor:

because it's pure exageration. nothing will break the game more than it is already, strong frames will stay strong, and weaker frames will become stronger. and average frames will be able to fill the role that previously only strong warframes could.

this will broaden the meta in a good way, and the doomsayers are UNNEEDED.

You forget the next two steps in the neverending cycle of power creep.
1) People will get bored after the adrenalin rush and demand new content that will challenge the strong frames.
2) DE is caught in a dillemma that every possible new content will either ignore most warframe powers, won't feel challenging with the strong frames or like a painful slog for weak/medium frames.

It's like giving weapons all the same riven disposition and somehow hoping that the gap between meta and non-meta weapons gets smaller

Spoiler

Which is a false assumptium.

 

[iHeuksal]

17 hours ago, --Q--FSK41 said:

This System is broken and will break the game completely,it shouldn't come into the game so many broken  combinations,for example mesa and eclipse/roar = who the hell thought of this. its completely unbalanced PLEASE DE do NOT put this into the game,since you made enemies paper the game is already quite easy but with this its literally broken

Please remove the damage BUFFING and abilities that do scaling/area damage it will break the game too much

This is why we can't have nice things in this world. Just deal with it.

[mikakor]

3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

agreed it will be nerfed and balanced but with their track record, I reckon they'll manage to bugger up plenty along the way and it will become content that will be "revisited" you know, like every other content island and forgotton mechanic that already exists.

i don't think we can truly call this a content island. it cannot be "forgotten" either, because of the very nature of this system. every time there is a new warframe, it's ability will be added to the helmith room, quite literally FORCING DE to keep the system in their mind. ALA "ho right, this exist". every time they design a new frame. they won't be able to forget it.

 

 

5 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

But on the topic, sure Chroma is strong but if I can take a warframe that has 3 strong abilities and add another strong ability, why would I ever use a frame that has 2 strong abilities and used to have only one?

while i do get your point, i think that we need to remember that not every abilities are always used for one situation. out of the good abilities said "strong" warframe have, maybe two or three still will be used, and for the "weaker" one, maybe 2 or three after the Helmith system will be used in the said situation. i do think that context, mission type and warframe/ability pick will vary greatly. what i know is that we will see a lot of unconcentional warframe pick for mission where we would never see them before, and for that, i am VERY happy.Warframes will keep their "Role" while having a neat bonus.

[mikakor]

5 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

You forget the next two steps in the neverending cycle of power creep.
1) People will get bored after the adrenalin rush and demand new content that will challenge the strong frames.
2) DE is caught in a dillemma that every possible new content will either ignore most warframe powers, won't feel challenging with the strong frames or like a painful slog for weak/medium frames.

1 : warframe will never be challenging. i had to accept this fact a bit ago and i feel way better about the game now. expecting warframe to have "real" challenge is path to disapointment. and ONLY this.
2 : DE needs to learn to pick a side or another. but in any way, they'll have to embrace power fantasy.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Sahansral said:

It's like giving weapons all the same riven disposition and somehow hoping that the gap between meta and non-meta weapons gets smaller

lootbox RNG based mod were a mistake. RNG buff is a mistake. this system isn't RNG.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, mikakor said:

i don't think we can truly call this a content island. it cannot be "forgotten" either, because of the very nature of this system. every time there is a new warframe, it's ability will be added to the helmith room, quite literally FORCING DE to keep the system in their mind. ALA "ho right, this exist". every time they design a new frame. they won't be able to forget it.

You misunderstood, I was meaning mechanics like stealth multipliers, finishers etc being accidently stuffed up when they likely try to balance every frame being able to use Rest just as one example. If they stuffed up Adaro levelling or something then it would be very disappointing. I would feel much more confident if they were any good at all at balancing in this game but look at their track record, rivens for example, with how strong weapons are simply better than the rest despite their "balance attempts". Their balance efforts remind me of Homer Simpson hitting the TV to fix it. For rivens instead of going off the stats of a weapon they go off player usage lol. That kind of blanket balancing will not work for this and will likely ruin other things in the process.

[mikakor]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

You misunderstood, I was meaning mechanics like stealth multipliers, finishers etc being accidently stuffed up when they likely try to balance every frame being able to use Rest just as one example. If they stuffed up Adaro levelling or something then it would be very disappointing. I would feel much more confident if they were any good at all at balancing in this game but look at their track record, rivens for example, with how strong weapons are simply better than the rest despite their "balance attempts".

while i do understand the fear, it won't come down to that. even if everyone use Rest with every frame, in absolute game play, for everyone else, what does it change? nothing much. people do adaro solo, if they wanna get rest, good for them. the EXP train will stay the same, it will just be with a different frame, but it won't have a bigger range or a longer duration, it will still be depending on the build you have. ultimately, nothing will have changed. solo adaro players will be soloing adaro, it's just the vessel that will have changed,  and considering how rest is barely used at all in any conventionnal gameplay, i don't see this ever becoming a problem.

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

This game is already a life sucking game, and this is relly important. they have to develop a new way of play, that not depends on spending crazy amount of hours leveling up frames and wapons that you just trow away only to have a MR 15, anyone could do that, that is not what define an experienced player. The Mastery Rank is the most Boring, and Exhausting part of the game, tha'ts why i never do it, cause, is a waste of time for me, in my case i work, i do not have 24 hours of the day to spent on this game, waisting my life, leveling a weapong or a frame i do not like, that time, could be replaced with really quaity time in your short life! yes, the life is short. So how you can identify an experienced player? look the stats, the money spent on the game, and also te hours! that would be fare!, this is a joke for all the people. the Mastery Rank do no represent the experience. Im MR 7, and actually, no MR28, has no match with me. of course, im playing this game sice 2015 on Ps4, now on switch i do not want to waste my time. 

Time people, 

Time is all we have! 

We sould play less live more! this is all about.

I want my time expent on this game BACK.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, mikakor said:

while i do understand the fear, it won't come down to that. even if everyone use Rest with every frame, in absolute game play, for everyone else, what does it change? nothing much. people do adaro solo, if they wanna get rest, good for them. the EXP train will stay the same, it will just be with a different frame, but it won't have a bigger range or a longer duration, it will still be depending on the build you have. ultimately, nothing will have changed. solo adaro players will be soloing adaro, it's just the vessel that will have changed,  and considering how rest is barely used at all in any conventionnal gameplay, i don't see this ever becoming a problem.

Time will tell, their track record of nerfing is against them is all I'm saying.

[mikakor]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Time will tell, their track record of nerfing is against them is all I'm saying.

ho, it totally is. but they are backed into a corner, here. this system is in their interest, both them and the players. if the system sucks, once they nerf, no one ever use it again. if it works, it's a HIGH chance of double dip platinum buying players, for one warframe for personal use, and one as fertilizer. if they play their card smart ( i mean, it's doubtful, but since Pablo's on that crap, i expect a high chance of success, from someone who actually seem to understand the game ) they'll have an easy plat avenue that benefit both them and the players for actual rewards. but yeah, we'll have to wait a few months.

[SilverRook]

8 hours ago, danberhe said:

but, wasn't that always the case?

i never felt that warframe was a hard game to begin with. The whole purpose of this game is to first and foremost make you feel like a god, thats the reason why most abilities dont have cool downs and you can mod a weapon to one shot everything.

If you wanted a challenge, destiny is what you should go to with cooldown abilities, small ammount of enemies, little to none one shots in the game, and a more boots on the ground approach.

Actually no it wasn't. There were fewer frames less stupidly op weapons. Looking at you lenz and bramma.

We had trials.

Instead of removing them make them better. But it's clear this development team now is catering to the lowest skilled players to make them feel powerful while also making older players feel absolutely useless cuz half the time enemies have been absolutely nuked or you bullet jump through an entire level skipping enemies and completing missions in under 2 minutes.

This game has nothing to offer me any more.

And yes destiny is exactly where I went back in June. Never looked back. As a new light player everything is new. And guess what.... You can increase the difficulty up to grand master. Which introduces difficulty rather than more bullet sponge, overload champions barrier champions etc. There are tactics to defeating enemies..... Warframe has none.

Got beyond light on preorder.

So..... Warframe has nothing to bring me back into the fold.

Good luck to you. I hope it gets better for you guys

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, mikakor said:

ho, it totally is. but they are backed into a corner, here. this system is in their interest, both them and the players. if the system sucks, once they nerf, no one ever use it again. if it works, it's a HIGH chance of double dip platinum buying players, for one warframe for personal use, and one as fertilizer. if they play their card smart ( i mean, it's doubtful, but since Pablo's on that crap, i expect a high chance of success, from someone who actually seem to understand the game ) they'll have an easy plat avenue that benefit both them and the players for actual rewards. but yeah, we'll have to wait a few months.

oh yeh, we're also gonna be farming every frame twice from now on lol, probably means buying a lot of bps from Simaris I guess 😕
Damned if I'm ever buying a frame with plat though.

[aNNomaNd3r]

11 hours ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

Agreed. They are killing Rhino, Valkyr in the process. What's the point of even playing them anymore if you are giving away their best abilities? They need to change this.

There doesn't appear to be any consistency with what abilities they've chosen, some (Decoy) are terrible and will never be used and then on other frames they've taken a really powerful ability; Warcry, Roar, Pillage.

 

Which does nothing to help the frames having their abilities stolen and guarantees they won't get used, but massively buffs others. Loki for example gets a massive buff from this system; a net win for Loki players; Valkyr becomes even more obsolete.

The problem this presents, is that besides the immediately obvious "meta" builds, there's obviously going to be weird and unexpected interactions which are game breaking.

The game wasn't balanced when there were 10 frames, now there are 40+, now powerful abilities from other frames can be mixed and matched.

 

And the "meta" / unexpected interactions are not a "worst case scenario" - they are almost guaranteed to happen and almost guaranteed to unbalance the game further.

 

[(NSW)H4YKEN1987]

This game is already a life sucking game (you have to spent a lot of hours), and this is relly important. they have to develop a new way of play, that not depends on spending crazy amount of hours leveling up frames and wapons that you just trow away only to have a MR 15, anyone could do that, that is not what define an experienced player. The Mastery Rank is the most Boring, and Exhausting part of the game, tha'ts why i never do it, cause, is a waste of time for me, in my case i work, i do not have 24 hours of the day to spent on this game, waisting my life, leveling a weapong or a frame i do not like, that time, could be replaced with really quaity time in your short life! yes, the life is short. So how you can identify an experienced player? look the stats, the money spent on the game, and also te hours! that would be fare!, this is a joke for all the people. the Mastery Rank do no represent the experience. Im MR 7, and actually, no MR28, has no match with me. of course, im playing this game sice 2015 on Ps4, now on switch i do not want to waste my time. 

Time is all we have! 

We sould play less live more! this is all about.

 

you can't give me back the time i spent on this game (the time is more important than the money you can keep the money). i know you can do it better!

[Cheese_Moon]

18 hours ago, Synpai said:

How does this work without the passive gauge? Is it always 50% or 100%?

It's like using 3 without even turning 2 on

so essentially 50%

[selig_fay]

So, I am awake and ready to continue this topic. I still haven't seen an argument for what will be broken in this game with the release of helminth with good abilities. Again, I'm not asking for your opinion that this will be broken. I ask "WHAT EXACTLY WILL BE BROKEN?". I mean, what part of the game will break down if we do what we already do with good frames?

[Hexwater]

Quick question - you can give any Warframe Grendel's Nourish, but AFAIK you also have to swallow an enemy to utilize that, right? Does it mean it's always active and ready to use or won't work on other Warframes because they cannot swallow enemies? Any Grendel mains to answer?

 

Quick rant: this comment section is sooo dissapointing and annoying. I saw a lot of comments about Mirage's Eclipse and Rhino's Roar - like those people didn't even read the post, where it's clearly written YOU CANNOT HAVE MULTIPLE BUFF ABILITIES ON ONE WARFRAME, so you cannot have Eclipse + Roar Rhino/Mirage.

Other comments about "do I have to submit multiple rhinos to give all of my frames"...it's like people didn't read the post AND didn't watch Tennocon on Twitch, or any kind of recap on YT.

It's ironic that I also ask a question, yest, but I didn't find the answer in the post itself.

[Xaero]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Damage Buffing abilities can only be swapped with Damage Buffing Abilities on Warframes that already have them.

Why doesn't the same apply to damage reduction abilities though?

[PrimeLightning3]

Cant wait to see how op EV and roar trinity gets in gamemodes like elite sanctuary onslaught

[kyori]

18 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Since you can remove an Ability at any time with the click of a button, you’ll be able to safely experiment with many creative combinations.

But we need another 23hrs to infuse a new ability as usual even though that configuration already had new ability infused previously, right? Plus the required resources if a new infusion is to be done, right?

[selig_fay]

16 minutes ago, aNNomaNd3r said:

And the "meta" / unexpected interactions are not a "worst case scenario" - they are almost guaranteed to happen and almost guaranteed to unbalance the game further.

We already have meta. It looks like you don't want to change anything and leave everything as it is. On the other hand, I'll tell you a fun thing - you can play non-meta and still, as you say, break the game right now.