The Helminth: Dev Workshop

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Like I said, this is a bad Mesa and she going to die. You need to leave the peacemakers to recast your abilities. And standing in one place will not make you more effective outside of defense.

OK, so what? We are talking about what exactly this will break. And we are talking about the Helmith system, not the peacemakers. Mesa can already kill steel path enemies fast enough. And if it does it 0.1 seconds faster for the enemy - I don't worry. Why are you so worried about this? 

I give up, you just don't get it. There's no point to this. Tesseract who posted above, he gets it. And so does Sister Hawk.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

7 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Dispensary is definitely one I did not expect to see on here. 

I thought they would pick her (1), and maybe with a buff or a future augment it could still have been a fun choice. 

But Dispensary I thought Pablo would realize instantly that was a terrible idea and not use it. I mean, it's going to be hard to resist not using it, but it's totally game breaking. 

I was expecting them to pick no gamebreaking abilities at all, and then buff as needed either at launch or over time to make the abilities more attractive to use. I did not expect them to choose several abilities that are extremely powerful even if only in terms of utility. But maybe after reading all the comments it will still change before launch. 

I hope they do change it and they said "subject to change" before lunch so I'm truly hoping they change the damage buffing abilities. The limitation doesn't do anything. Roar on Wisp which is based on strength and duration like who thought this was a good idea?

I'm going to add to the list of people saying that Roar being transferable is absolutely not okay, for 3 reasons:

Roar is incongruent to how most frames's kits are designed and balanced, and having it be transferable violates how the ability itself is balanced. Roar allows any given frame to unconditionally double their damage output if built even somewhat properly. On Rhino, this is fine, because his other 3 abilities are all utility and not typically used for damage (except Stomp which has some application as a trash clear). Conversely, many frames are presumably balanced around the fact that they do NOT have access to an unconditional damage increase unless provided to them by a teammate. Assigning Roar arbitrarily, however, breaks this basic design principle.

Roar is heads, tails, leaps, and bounds better than pretty much any ability on this list. Except for the special cases (already a symptom of terrible design) where you can't transfer Roar, is there really any frame in the game that would choose some okay-but-not-astounding CC or utility over the ability to just flat-out deal more damage and presumably directly contribute to clearing a mission faster?

Making Roar transferable will more or less render Rhino himself irrelevant. Yes, Iron Skin and Stomp are nice, but I'm pretty sure Rhino's main utility and his contribution to any given mission objective is his ability to drastically boost the damage output of his entire team including himself, and that function can now be lifted from him and assigned to another frame which will then not only be able to do his job, but whatever job they already natively do.

Roar is literally a role-defining talent which has no place being transferable freely at all let alone being on the same list of options as things like Airburst or friggin' Shock.

(The above criticisms apply to the other damage boosters on the list (Eclipse, Nourish, etc.) to an extent but Roar gets my attention for being especially odious.)

This is not my argument about Roar, someone else summarize exactly my feelings on the matter though.
 

[selig_fay]

8 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Dispensary is definitely one I did not expect to see on here. 

I thought they would pick her (1), and maybe with a buff or a future augment it could still have been a fun choice. 

Here the problem is more that few people will be able to use protea 1 correctly, because there will not be enough energy for spam abilities. And protea 1 and 2 are very strong spam. The dispenser is a better option here. On the other hand, it will also be quite niche, because unlike Zenuric and the regular drop of energy orbs, the dispenser makes you stick in place to get the maximum benefit. And you know, most missions are a flight from point A to point B. You also lose one ability slot and you also need to rebuild  your build to have more duration, because the dispenser will benefit very little from strength. 

On the other hand, Protea 1 is immortality for all frames with infinite energy. Especially for Hildryn. And I think that artillery can do a lot of damage with Vauban. Dispenser - we can live without it, but it will just give us a little flexibility in the build and nothing more. I really don't understand what it will break. It just gives us another way to restore energy and that's it.

On the other hand, why doesn't anyone see Spectrorage?

[master_of_destiny]

6 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Well, you're right about that. You can put a limit here, but I don't think it will be a problem, because people value offense more than defense. This is the same as saying that we need to replace 1 CC with another CC when I have 3 CC in my set.

The amount of particles is influenced by the ability duration value.  The damage reduction is 5% per particle, topping out at 90%.  Each particle can do 200 slash damage whilst attacking an enemy.  This functionally makes the ability an offensive at close range and a defensive at range.  

 

How might this be abused?  Well, the thing is an ability and scales off of your duration.  What frame has the drive to huge duration, and could use this to damage enemies with impunity?  Well, off the top of my head I'd suggest Zephyr and Limbo.  The former could combine the 90% DR and functional bullet shield to become a frighteningly tanky frame.  The later offers the ability to have a shield while casting Cataclysm, and once in the void a way to spam damage against enemies outside it.  Think about using Limbo's dodge, slamming down the star, and simply walking through missions while enemies die and cannot effectively shoot you.  It wouldn't be the fastest solution, but for lower level missions it'd literally allow you to never take any damage.   It would be ember's trash burning 2.0, and the only difficulty would be in something like a capture or mobile defense where you have to interact with things.

 

 

There was already a long discussion about Zephyr, so let me just say that replacing her "improved" air burst is high on my list of things to fix.  The opposition to that is that frames like Nova and Nidus have very little that are reasonable to drop, but their abilities are going to be prized as replacements on less useful frames.  It's great on paper, but I'm having issues with DE and their wording.

 

To be fair, let's look back at how something like archwing was sold.  You could summon your archwing, and fly around the plains of eidolon.  Well, not quite.  You can craft a launcher, get in the archwing, and be slammed back down to the ground with nearly every enemy capable of force despawning it.  Then pay to launch again, hoping that you wouldn't be locked onto again quickly enough to functionally make it a resource waste.  The economy was eventually fixed, so that using the launcher wasn't a huge resource drain.  That was something simple, and this is a system several orders of magnitude less so.  I just don't believe DE has the ability to balance so many things at once, and their terminology and word choice indicates they don't either.  That's something to be very cautious of, given the history.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Here the problem is more that few people will be able to use protea 1 correctly, because there will not be enough energy for spam abilities. And protea 1 and 2 are very strong spam. The dispenser is a better option here. On the other hand, it will also be quite niche, because unlike Zenuric and the regular drop of energy orbs, the dispenser makes you stick in place to get the maximum benefit. And you know, most missions are a flight from point A to point B. You also lose one ability slot and you also need to rebuild  your build to have more duration, because the dispenser will benefit very little from strength. 

On the other hand, Protea 1 is immortality for all frames with infinite energy. Especially for Hildryn. And I think that artillery can do a lot of damage with Vauban. Dispenser - we can live without it, but it will just give us a little flexibility in the build and nothing more. I really don't understand what it will break. It just gives us another way to restore energy and that's it.

On the other hand, why doesn't anyone see Spectrorage?

Have you considered the combination of Arcane Energize with it? And the fact it means that focused abilities that would normally have to be turned off to gain energy other than a few orbs or maybe Rage in the build, can now stay in toggle mode? 

And don't worry, I know Spectrorage has potential as well. Pretty sure I can comfortably hit the damage cap with just Gara using these helminth abilities.

[BrazilianJoe]

Loki's decoy needs an initial invulnerability window. Preferably that increases its HP based on damage accumulated during invulnerability. 
At high level, it is killed instantly. 

Bonus points if it constantly re-aggros and is always considered the highest threat. 

[selig_fay]

10 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Have you considered the combination of Arcane Energize with it?

Arcane energize works without it. I can guarantee you that. If this doesn't work for you, it won't work with the dispenser. I can guarantee you that, too. The dispenser is more designed for equilibrium, but it also requires a lot of tricks.

10 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

And the fact it means that focused abilities that would normally have to be turned off to gain energy other than a few orbs or maybe Rage in the build, can now stay in toggle mode?

Energy drain is already losing out in many ways to the usual duration abilities. But we can already support them indefinitely. Arcane energyze and rage work for this. On the other hand, there are many frames that have spam potential and that suffer from limited builds. For Example, Mag. Yes, she is strong, maybe even stronger than Mesa, but right now her build is very much limited in energy, whereas Mesa is not limited because she has mostly duration abilities.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Arcane energize works without it. I can guarantee you that. If this doesn't work for you, it won't work with the dispenser. I can guarantee you that, too. The dispenser is more designed for equilibrium, but it also requires a lot of tricks.

Energy drain is already losing out in many ways to the usual duration abilities. But we can already support them indefinitely. Arcane energyze and rage work for this. On the other hand, there are many frames that have spam potential and that suffer from limited builds. For Example, Mag. Yes, she is strong, maybe even stronger than Mesa, but right now her beat is very much limited in energy, whereas Mesa is not limited because she has mostly duration abilities.

Yes I know they work. But there's a big difference between being able to stand still and murder all the enemies indefinitely and create your own orbs and having to either build for it(sacrificing mod space) or picking up orbs while toggling off your ability, if it's one that only permits you to be stationary.  

[AlphaMegaManGX]

I'm sitting here laughing at everyone preaching how OP anything is going to be. You realize that anything you can think of(Roar on Mesa, Dispensary on Anyone, ect) is already achieveable right? I can already play as Rhino in a group of Mesas and boom all the Mesas have Roar buff. I can already play as Protea in a group of Mesas and boom all the Mesas and stay in Peacewalker infinitely. Nothing is "game breaking" because everything you can possibly come up with is already possible in the game.

[(PSN)DeZaruu]

This is a question/thinking out loud for DE

Have you considered doing any passive synergy based on the elemental groups present for the Lich system?

Let's say you decide to add Nyx's Mind Control to Equinox - and they're both in the "Radiation" group, it'd be kind of neat to see a small synergy bonus. A "Symbiotic Passive" related to the elemental which makes it appealing to maybe consider staying within the same group, but not so major you feel you HAVE TO

Or adding Mag's Pull to Mesa, add something Magnetic/Shield related 

[Marine027]

Oh boy, i can't wait to see this burn down, this system taking away what most frames represent, one way to go down i guess.

Meta incoming again, most abilitys ignored anyway and only certain combination to be seen in certain content, not like people already not wanted certain frames now it will be even more niche.

Free buildign and skilling is never a good thing since it will always have a meta.

God i loved this game but DE, you ruin it, seriously. Can't work on Duviri Paradox, so oyu trow another thing in betweem you proably not even made ready yet then move on to the next like always right? I give this system like 3 months before it burns and be forgotten once again.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, AlphaMegaManGX said:

I'm sitting here laughing at everyone preaching how OP anything is going to be. You realize that anything you can think of(Roar on Mesa, Dispensary on Anyone, ect) is already achieveable right? I can already play as Rhino in a group of Mesas and boom all the Mesas have Roar buff. I can already play as Protea in a group of Mesas and boom all the Mesas and stay in Peacewalker infinitely. Nothing is "game breaking" because everything you can possibly come up with is already possible in the game.

Actually you're wrong there. This allows us to stack more buffs by having 4 useful abilities per frame, neatly removing the need for support in some cases and simply allowing MOAR POWA.

[AlphaMegaManGX]

Just now, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Actually you're wrong there. This allows us to stack more buffs by having 4 useful abilities per frame, neatly removing the need for support in some cases and simply allowing MOAR POWA.

Give an example.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, AlphaMegaManGX said:

Give an example.

Wow you people with your examples, are you incapable of thinking for yourself? 

No longer needing a Trinity for example, a frame that is used in a lot of group situations, no longer has a reason to be there. So I might as well bring another buff frame for the group.

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Yes I know they work. But there's a big difference between being able to stand still and murder all the enemies indefinitely and create your own orbs and having to either build for it(sacrificing mod space) or picking up orbs while toggling off your ability, if it's one that only permits you to be stationary.

Em. Or you can have a good build to not need energy for 2 minutes, and then pick up 1-2 orbs and restore your energy. In any case, I-who played on Mesa 0,0% understand that you need to leave peacemaker anyway, otherwise either you will die at the end of buffs, or you will not be effective, because you need to activate pistol arcanes.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

3 minutes ago, AlphaMegaManGX said:

Give an example.

No longer needing a Rhino. A frame that is used in group situations as well? Absolutely no need to be there anymore since everyone just going to run Wisp or trinity + Roar or whatever other frame they want with Roar.

[selig_fay]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

No longer needing a Trinity for example, a frame that is used in a lot of group situations, no longer has a reason to be there. So I might as well bring another buff frame for the group.

Um, Who needs Trinity now? Let's start with this.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Em. Or you can have a good build to not need energy for 2 minutes, and then pick up 1-2 orbs and restore your energy. In any case, I-who played on Mesa 0,0% understand that you need to leave peacemaker anyway, otherwise either you will die at the end of buffs, or you will not be effective, because you need to activate pistol arcanes.

Mesa does more damage the longer you stay in it, hence the OP part of it. it costs more energy drain but that's not a problem anymore, Mesa's waltz allows a small amount of movement if required though it's quite bad. Sure you can recharge Shatter shield but that's only if you're playing solo, otherwise, you can now happily stay inside say a frost bubble and never leave peacemaker. It just makes it harder to spray down the room with the smaller reticle is all, it still will fire if you put it on them.

[selig_fay]

Just now, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

No longer needing a Rhino. A frame that is used in group situations as well? Absolutely no need to be there anymore since everyone just going to run Wisp or trinity + Roar or whatever other frame they want with Roar.

To be honest, I think Rhino will still be popular. Large CC and invulnerability make it strong. Just look at what ability you can use to strengthen Rhino and I think it will be stronger than many frames.

[AlphaMegaManGX]

1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Wow you people with your examples, are you incapable of thinking for yourself? 

No longer needing a Trinity for example, a frame that is used in a lot of group situations, no longer has a reason to be there. So I might as well bring another buff frame for the group.

I'm asking for an example because you are claiming something without evidence. Why do you no longer need a Trinity? Trinity is giving up Well of Life something most Trins never used in the group anyway. Are you saying you no longer need a Trinity because now you have Protea's Dispenser? Not the same as Trin on command giving Energy Vamp. For example, if you are claiming you can just run Dispenser on Mesa and never leave Peacemaker wellI have some news for you. You have to leave at some point to recast it. Trin is still good to run for her instant shield restore and damage reduction. The point I'm making is everyone is blowing a gasket with "OMFG MORE DAMAGE CAUSE I CAN ROAR MYSELF ON MY MESA!!!!!" Ok, but you realize Mesa could recieve a Roar buff already right? So why would Mesa casting Roar on herself matter? All this does is give more options for solo players since I needed someone to run as Rhino to give it to me. In which case, why the hell do you care if a solo player gets to Roar themselves. How does it affect you?

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, selig_fay said:

Um, Who needs Trinity now? Let's start with this.

Again are you people incapable of your own thoughts? EV is very useful in certain scenarios, just depends what content you are doing. If you're playing a long defense mission for example, using Frost bubble as the defense, it's nice to have a constant source of energy considering you're casting your frost bubble every 4 seconds. But now, everybody has energy vampire so we don't need Trinity. Or  we don't Rhino, etc

[-CdG-Zilchy]

9 hours ago, AlphaMegaManGX said:

I'm asking for an example because you are claiming something without evidence. Why do you no longer need a Trinity? Trinity is giving up Well of Life something most Trins never used in the group anyway. Are you saying you no longer need a Trinity because now you have Protea's Dispenser? Not the same as Trin on command giving Energy Vamp. For example, if you are claiming you can just run Dispenser on Mesa and never leave Peacemaker wellI have some news for you. You have to leave at some point to recast it. Trin is still good to run for her instant shield restore and damage reduction. The point I'm making is everyone is blowing a gasket with "OMFG MORE DAMAGE CAUSE I CAN ROAR MYSELF ON MY MESA!!!!!" Ok, but you realize Mesa could recieve a Roar buff already right? So why would Mesa casting Roar on herself matter? All this does is give more options for solo players since I needed someone to run as Rhino to give it to me. In which case, why the hell do you care if a solo player gets to Roar themselves. How does it affect you?

Why do I need to recast it? It still works with the smaller reticle it's just slightly harder to aim and btw the damage increases as it shrinks. 
You're not looking at the big picture of frames becoming obsolete, the gap between good and bad frames increasing etc and the inevitable nerfs that will screw up other mechanics. Everyone always assumes that when you say it will break the game you mean just damage. I don't, I mean breaking parts of the game, like certain frames. And then there's the inevitable long term effect of  content becoming even more boring because we're even more OP.

[EonCode]

hace 19 horas, (XB1)BerserkPredz dijo:

looks like lull is gonna activate sicko mode on alot of my frames XD. thanks very much!

YOU have rest from equinox as well

[selig_fay]

2 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Mesa does more damage the longer you stay in it, hence the OP part of it. it costs more energy drain but that's not a problem anymore, Mesa's waltz allows a small amount of movement if required though it's quite bad. Sure you can recharge Shatter shield but that's only if you're playing solo, otherwise, you can now happily stay inside say a frost bubble and never leave peacemaker. It just makes it harder to spray down the room with the smaller reticle is all, it still will fire if you put it on them.

First, the longer you are in peacemaker, the smaller your window for autoaim. This way your window becomes so small that you can banally use AOE weapons instead.

Second, what is the difference between Mesa with a dispenser and Mesa + Protea? I think having 2 dispensers would be a bit inappropriate.

[AlphaMegaManGX]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)MetalxPhoenix said:

No longer needing a Rhino. A frame that is used in group situations as well? Absolutely no need to be there anymore since everyone just going to run Wisp or trinity + Roar or whatever other frame they want with Roar.

When did you ever "NEED" a Rhino? You never NEEDed anyone in this game to do any content. People who want to play Rhino can still play Rhino if they want to. Infact they can play Rhino completely different now if they want.Not everyone is going to just grab Roar. There are tons of great abilities to pull from. Thats the beauty of this.