Tamamo, Kitsume Frame

[keikogi]

3 hours ago, Gashabae said:

I love the idea of multiple tails growing, both thematically and as a mechanic, but why aren't the tails used by her abilities? Passives that strengthen over time, in the literal sense, are fine but once they reaches cap after x minutes has passed, the passive loses all of its appeal.

A possible solution could be having an "on shield gate" effect costing one tail (e.g. increases energy regen by 1 for x seconds). The tail growth rate would probably have to increase to accommodate the periodic loss of a tail. Each ability used could reduce the time it takes to grow the next tail by x seconds. This is just one of many and I'm sure you could think of something better. If you were to go with the above example, the actual "on shield gate" effect would probably have to be changed since she already has energy regen in her kit but the core of the suggestion still stands.

I became a bit of a boomer when it comes to design and despite my usual nonsense when it comes to design ( proposing simbiot frames that use drops as energy , proposing a necramech frame and so on ) I grew a high appreciation to simple stuff(especially after talking with @FrostedMike and trying to play Apelios from league of legends, I literally can´t be bothered to understand that guy). Like despite all the nonsense most of the stuff here is a one sentence skill

Passive gets tails over time, tails give bonus to skill

1.       Tap - Copy the visual of an ally, recasting this skill will cast the helminth skill of that ally 

1.       Hold – Create a copy of yourself and go invisible until your next attack

2.       Turn into a fox and get shields for bumping into people

3.       Create a orb that attacks people when you attack , recasting will throw the orb

4.       Start a simp war

Where I´m trying to get at , first off  there are no numbers here but you are not meant to be able to fully stack the passive. Haven’t found the proper sequence yet but the time to get a tail is supposed to go like

1.       0 min

2.       2 min

3.       4 min

4.       8 min

5.       16 min

6.       32 min

7.       64 min

8.       124 min

9.       228 min ( you can get if you are a endurance runner but is not a day to day thing )

The tails are not used by the skill , you just get a passive bonus for having them. If you have 1 tail you can only have 1 illusion up at any given time , if you have 2 you can have two illusions and so on. Same goes for the orb damage if if you have just 1 tail it deals pitfull damage ( 1 x total modded damage ) if you have two tails ( it deals 2x total modded damage ) , if you have three tails ( it deals 3 x total modded damage ). If I was going to create the math I would probably balance the damage components around 4 or 5 tails. The utility skill are good eneoug even without the bonus.

I did consider a version using tails to create a massive spirit kitsume ( you could use tails to make a pet spirit kitsume (I´ve been big to shove a kubrow frame without using the Kubrow theme or lycan , but every time the dog gets cut). But the version that just grows tails over time as more thematically appropriate.

3 hours ago, Gashabae said:

Love this. Just a thought... When the ability is copied over, will it scale off of her modded stats or the stats from the original owner? How would this affect her access to Helminth abilities inherited from the Helminth System? Could she technically have two helminth abilities at a time if she infuses one into her 2nd, 3rd, or 4th slot?

She uses her own stats (her stats don´t change during the transformation). And yes, she can have two helminth ability but I dough you would throw away one of her ability.

3 hours ago, Gashabae said:

I'm kind of interested in knowing how strong those buffs are supposed to be but this is overall great.

There no real buffs there the ms bonus is there just so the skill works as discount mach rush ( well it has no forced forward movement it is just a ms buff and a removal of collision , and you get bonuses from bumping into stuff , also it has no health damage imunity since it is not a dash it is tranfaormation )

3 hours ago, Gashabae said:

Another possible animation for Simp Machine?

That’s a better one gonna add to the skill description

[FrostedMike]

On 2020-08-13 at 1:32 AM, keikogi said:

Stars

Health – 75 (225)

Shields – 150 (450)

Armor – 75

Energy – 200(300)

Speed – 1.1

Passive  

Tamamo grows tails over the length of the mission.

1.       Illusion

Tap (self-cast)

Tamamo becomes invisible and creates a copy of herself. This copy behaves like a specter but only deals 1 damage per hit. Invisibility last until your next strike. If there was a target on Tamamo´s cross hair she will disguise herself as the target. Maximum number of illusions is equal to the current amount of tails.

Hold (target on the cross hair)

Tamamo shapeshifts into a copy of the target.

If she copies an ally she will copy their appearance and will be able to use 1 of their skill ( the one available through the helminth system, she can cast it by using her 1 ). Loosing her shields or casting any other skill will break the spell.

If she copies an enemy she can use one of their skills but firing her weapon, breaking her shields or casting any other skill will break the spell.

2.       Kitsume Dash

Tamamo tuns into a fox spirit and rushes forwards. Passing through enemies steals a small portion of their souls restoring energy and shields. Movement speed, shield regeneration and energy regeneration scale with the number of tails.

Synergy: All Copies of Tamamo also turn into fox spirit. These fox spirits will rush towards the closest enemy and blow up weakening enemy’s souls. Enemies with weakened souls take increased damage from skills.

3.       Hoshi no tama (cost 10% of energy pool/s during the charge up time)

Tamamo feeds her orb energy to temporarily increase it´s power.  When Tamomo fires her weapon, the orb will throw energy rays towards her target. If Tamamo uses her melee weapon the orb will attack her enemies as if it was glaive. The orb will store all the damage it deals. Upon the end of it´s duration (or recasting the skill to end it early) it will deal all damage stored as radiation damage.

Orb Math

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Orb damage scales with the energy used to create it and current number or tails

Orb duration is based on the energy used and power duration

 

3.1 Genki Dama (augument)

The orb will also receive energy from allies skills casts and stores damage from allies kills. Also has increased maximum blast radius.

4.       Kitsune no Yomeiri

Tamamo proposes marriage to all enemies in a radius around her crosshair. All these enemies will fight each other until there only one enemy standing (if multiple enemies die at the same time the skill will resurrect one at full HP). The Groom will receive a potion and a weapon as his marriage gift. The weapon is a copy of one of Tamamo´s weapons and the potion will increase the enemy damage but reduce his life expectancy. Recasting this skill will propose to new enemies and the current groom will join the fight.

Synergy : Illusions of Tamamo will also cast this skill but will have a heavily reduce radius. The Grooms of the illusions will not receive a copy of Tamamo´s weapons nor the potion (well he felt in love with a 3-d drawing)

Marriage stuff

Got a notification, I know who you are :D
Didn't see you in a while.

I read through your concept and at some point I figured it will take too long to read through some feedbacks here. I'm writing mine around the fact I read only the concept and a bit of the feedbacks. Take that in mind. I copied the concept here so we won't have to go back to page 1 and read again.

First off, explain what a "kitsune" is. It seems like most people here know what it is and so do I, but an explaination will be welcomes in case someone doesn't know. Actually, I remembered what a kitsune is only when reaching the third ability. I read through "tails" and didn't understand from where it came from untill I made the connection to something japanese and an orb.
It also seems like a simple concept art or a description of her looks will help a lot.

Abilities.
Generally it seems unbalanced and a bit weird.

Passive
She grows tails through the mission. How many tails? What does the tails do? How much time it takes to grow each tail? If it matters for her abilities, shouldn't she start with all of her tails? I get the theme, but not the purpose of this passive.

1. Illusion

• It's Hall of Mirrors with more decoys and Prowl combined, but you can run. It break when attacking, but otherwise it stays forever. That sounds broken, especially for the first ability. Spy missions will become too easy as there is no need to kill anyone. More reading answers the question of the tails purpose, but it doesn't say if it costs tails or not. If so, then now I don't have decoys to follow me if I cast it right away when starting the mission. My spy missions are even easier with no decoys to take enemy attention.
• This ability need a timer for invisibility, this is my feeling.
• Mimicing enemies sounds weak compared to the tap option. Why would I mimic an enemy, limit myself to one ability and have too many ways to break the spell, if the tap option just lets me stay invisible forever?

2. Kitsune Dash.

• I like this one. This one sounds better for the first ability compared to what you have there now.

3. Hoshi No Tama.

• Remember something I said a lot and you adopted? "If you can't explain it with one or two sentences, it's too complicated."? What happened with this ability?
  • "Tamamo uses her orb to increase her fire power. The orb will attack every enemy Tamamo is currently attacking."
• The energy cost is interesting. It means that mods like Flow and Streamline doesn't matter with this ability. What I wish this ability would do is to take it into consideration and reward the player depends on the energy Tamamo actually spent on this ability. 10% of 200 energy is not the same as 10% of 400 energy. Maybe increase it's power with more energy spent? I don't think increased duration for this ability is the right way a duration based ability depends on efficiancy is weird. This type of energy cost can lead to some interesting builds, think about it.

4. Kitsune No Yomeiri

• I don't know why people here think this ability is relyable and actually good compared to Nyx's Chaos. I still think it's the same. Chaos have two major issues: enemies can still target Nyx and the damage output of the enemies is meaningless when they attack each other. This ability suffers from a limilar problem, the enemies don't kill each other fast enough. Even with increased strength like Nekros's Shadows of the Dead and Nyx's Mind Control they're still too weak to kill other enemies fast enough.
• This ability depends on enemies killing each other and leaving a survivor. It's still better to just kill the enemies yourself.
• Reading farther in, the survivor is just a glorified Mind Control. You took two useless abilities from arguably the worst warframe in the game, fixed only half of one of them, combined it together and called it an ultimate ability.
• I could complain about the complexity like the third ability, but this time the ability is just plain bad.
• It wouldn't be as useless if the controlled enemies will have increased stats like Nekro's 4, but then we still have the issue of them not killing each other fast enough. In this case it will also sound like a copy of Nekros which we don't want.
• In my personal opinion, I suggest scrapping this ability and make a new one.

EDIT:
I just noticed that the passive matters only for her first ability. Why is that?

[keikogi]

8 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

She grows tails through the mission. How many tails? What does the tails do? How much time it takes to grow each tail? If it matters for her abilities, shouldn't she start with all of her tails? I get the theme, but not the purpose of this passive.

Start with one goes to 9. Hven´t fine tunned the numbers but it would be something like 

Where I´m trying to get at , first off  there are no numbers here but you are not meant to be able to fully stack the passive. Haven’t found the proper sequence yet but the time to get a tail is supposed to go like

1.       0 min

2.       2 min

3.       4 min

4.       8 min

5.       16 min

6.       32 min

7.       64 min

8.       124 min

9.       228 min ( you can get if you are a endurance runner but is not a day to day thing )

8 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

1. Illusion

• It's Hall of Mirrors with more decoys and Prowl combined, but you can run. It break when attacking, but otherwise it stays forever. That sounds broken, especially for the first ability. Spy missions will become too easy as there is no need to kill anyone. More reading answers the question of the tails purpose, but it doesn't say if it costs tails or not. If so, then now I don't have decoys to follow me if I cast it right away when starting the mission. My spy missions are even easier with no decoys to take enemy attention.
• This ability need a timer for invisibility, this is my feeling.
• Mimicing enemies sounds weak compared to the tap option. Why would I mimic an enemy, limit myself to one ability and have too many ways to break the spell, if the tap option just lets me stay invisible forever?

For of I mixed versions on this skill and there where words left over from a older version. Corrected a bit should be less confusing now. The enemy cast is there just so skill is not clunky but Originally it did allow to cast enemy skill but the game has no priority list for enemies with mutiple skills so that part was scraped , I did consider creating a resumed list per faction like any grineer unit can cast a blunt but it was scrapeed because it would be odd for a roller to create a blunt.

 The unlimited invisibility is not as strong as it sounds. You can already go the entire mission effectively invisble , Star void dash and press two , run and stop on the pit stops on the vault to recast ( most vaults have hidding spots because they were not desined around invisibility ) does it really change anything not having to stop each 30 seconds to leave enemy LOS.  The ilusions deal damage but only 1 per hit won´t really add up damage but they can spread status really well and that´t their intended use. It has no taill cost , the tail only increases the cap for active ilusions.

About invisiblity in general I like it as concept but hate it in game because enemies literaly can´t deal with it and when they can it feels like statked layers of BS because the game does not tell you who can see you and if they have spoted you. The until next strike clause makes the invisibility works as intended as a get out of jail card and a stleath tool.

Edit: I do grant it is overloaded but the helminth system kinda of created the anemic roar bar. Any skill that is clearly worse than anemic roar is a defacto empy ability slot. So I want to create a ilusion based skill (minor distraction ) it has to be loaded with extra utility otherwise it is just the designated helminth slot. 

Edit2: I Probably can rework her two to turn into a unit of the same faction of the targeted unit and allow her to cast the skill that unit has and fire weapon so it has the same power level than the ally cast. 

8 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

Hoshi No Tama.

• Remember something I said a lot and you adopted? "If you can't explain it with one or two sentences, it's too complicated."? What happened with this ability?
  • "Tamamo uses her orb to increase her fire power. The orb will attack every enemy Tamamo is currently attacking."
• The energy cost is interesting. It means that mods like Flow and Streamline doesn't matter with this ability. What I wish this ability would do is to take it into consideration and reward the player depends on the energy Tamamo actually spent on this ability. 10% of 200 energy is not the same as 10% of 400 energy. Maybe increase it's power with more energy spent? I don't think increased duration for this ability is the right way a duration based ability depends on efficiancy is weird. This type of energy cost can lead to some interesting builds, think about it.

It is remarcably simple when you remove the fluff from the description. Here is the fluffless description. 

Creates as floating gun and glaive that fallow you around, they attack whenever you attack. Recast to trown than away dealing damage. It would be fairly obvious what it does when you play,

Edit: it is just that expalining the "logic " of the skill require a bit more of a convoluted wording because saying you are creating a energy orb sounds is within the expected skill set of a kitsume but using the what the skill effectively does create a floating tediore gun does not vibe well with the concept. Probably I can write it better.

The way the damage scales is a bit less intuitive but visual clarity could help it , if the orb gets bigger the more energy was used it would comunicate well the damage increase. 

It already scales with energy spent look at the orb math section 

8 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

4. Kitsune No Yomeiri

• I don't know why people here think this ability is relyable and actually good compared to Nyx's Chaos. I still think it's the same. Chaos have two major issues: enemies can still target Nyx and the damage output of the enemies is meaningless when they attack each other. This ability suffers from a limilar problem, the enemies don't kill each other fast enough. Even with increased strength like Nekros's Shadows of the Dead and Nyx's Mind Control they're still too weak to kill other enemies fast enough.
• This ability depends on enemies killing each other and leaving a survivor. It's still better to just kill the enemies yourself.
• Reading farther in, the survivor is just a glorified Mind Control. You took two useless abilities from arguably the worst warframe in the game, fixed only half of one of them, combined it together and called it an ultimate ability.
• I could complain about the complexity like the third ability, but this time the ability is just plain bad.
• It wouldn't be as useless if the controlled enemies will have increased stats like Nekro's 4, but then we still have the issue of them not killing each other fast enough. In this case it will also sound like a copy of Nekros which we don't want.
• In my personal opinion, I suggest scrapping this ability and make a new one.

There are few details that make it really good 

First , the winner receices a damage buff and copy of your weapon as reward. That makes the groom a dps machine

Second, surviving only implies that he has to be the last man standing, it does not imply any need for killing ( the skill requirument is last man standing , not any kill rquired , is the good old batle royale requiment if the others died to fall damage it does not matter you win anyways )

Third , there is a tie protection if the enemies die at the same time , a winner is revived and chosen at random (it already has the revival clause as a tie protection if they die at the same time it does not matter if it was your Brama or saryn going achoo , probably could make it only work for ally kill if I find the skill to reliable considering that better wuclone is a hell of  reward) 

forth , it works as comand skill when you already have groom because he will automatically enter the new "batleroyale"

8 hours ago, FrostedMike said:

EDIT:
I just noticed that the passive matters only for her first ability. Why is that?

The passive maters for all skill is just that some stuff was mentioned in passing. 2 buffs scales with tails. 3 damage increases with tails(stated on the or math section ). 4 the ilusions also cast a weaker copy of the skill(massivily reduced radius and no buffs for the winner )  so it is inderetly buffed by a bigger ilusion cap.

Edit: Bunch of typos and clearing up language 

 

[keikogi]

Double Post

 

[Gashabae]

15 hours ago, keikogi said:

Where I´m trying to get at , first off  there are no numbers here but you are not meant to be able to fully stack the passive. Haven’t found the proper sequence yet but the time to get a tail is supposed to go like

1.       0 min

2.       2 min

3.       4 min

4.       8 min

5.       16 min

6.       32 min

7.       64 min

8.       124 min

9.       228 min ( you can get if you are a endurance runner but is not a day to day thing )

Gotcha. You should add this to the concept under "hidden content" even if these aren't the final numbers. I would personally love this passive but I could see players that don't mess with long survivals getting pissed off and whining lol.

15 hours ago, keikogi said:

She uses her own stats (her stats don´t change during the transformation). And yes, she can have two helminth ability but I dough you would throw away one of her ability.

Cool.

16 hours ago, keikogi said:

There no real buffs there the ms bonus is there just so the skill works as discount mach rush ( well it has no forced forward movement it is just a ms buff and a removal of collision , and you get bonuses from bumping into stuff , also it has no health damage imunity since it is not a dash it is tranfaormation )

Gotcha. I feel like the ability description could be more... descriptive. The ability is actually much better than I thought now that you fully explained it.

[keikogi]

1 minute ago, Gashabae said:

Gotcha. I feel like the ability description could be more... descriptive. The ability is actually much better than I thought now that you fully explained it.

Gonna work on it. It is a really hard fight between being being brief and being clear. 

2 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

Gotcha. You should add this to the concept under "hidden content" even if these aren't the final numbers. I would personally love this passive but I could see players that don't mess with long survivals getting pissed off and whining lol.

I would say 2 things

I would just reply it takes 1000 years normaly all thing concerned it is pretty fast.

It has dimishing returns ( effectivily ) 

 

[keikogi]

8 minutes ago, Gashabae said:

Gotcha. I feel like the ability description could be more... descriptive. The ability is actually much better than I thought now that you fully explained it.

Gonna rewrite the post for better clarity and formating. Maybe adding a few numbers for the sake of balance and better grasp on the mechanics.

[FrostedMike]

5 hours ago, keikogi said:

Gonna rewrite the post for better clarity and formating. Maybe adding a few numbers for the sake of balance and better grasp on the mechanics.

Seems like it was my issue as well. It's possible to understand, but really hard.

[keikogi]

7 minutes ago, FrostedMike said:

Seems like it was my issue as well. It's possible to understand, but really hard.

Ye this was more of wild idea that I wrote down to not forget. Going to use a proper formating and put a few place holder numbers to help people visualize the kit.

[keikogi]

@FrostedMike and @Gashabae, it should be way more clear now. Did a bit of reworking too. 

[Gashabae]

@keikogi Looks much better!

Spoiler

I've gotta learn how to simplify ability descriptions like this.

 

[keikogi]

1 hour ago, Gashabae said:

Spoiler

I've gotta learn how to simplify ability descriptions like this.

 

It is mostly proper foramring. The simplify part is just from both giving the idea time and proof reading after a few days ( so you can spot your own mistakes , proof reading right after you wrote something is pointless because your brain will fill in the lacking information on the text ). Also the feedback I got here was quite helpfull

[keikogi]

Added the second argument to allow allies to win the batle royale created by her 4.