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DE, can Hydroid please get a rework.


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6 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

As someone else has pointed out; thats like saying "you could play a different game". That's not a valid response. I would like to play Hydroid, but I also want Hydroid to actually be effecitve, which he isn't. Having a problem with something doesn't mean you should

Not really, its no more like saying "you can play a different game" than it would be like "you can switch to another hobby". Warframe is a game that provides alot of different characters with different playstyles. If you dont like what hydroid offers, you could look at another frame. I see alot of hydroid users in later games and they hold up fine. Hes no nuker, but has alot of CC and support abilities. Instead of railing against what hes got, you can work with it. More range, more duration, ect. Hell hes one of the few frames i dont plan on replacing anything hes got.

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2 minutes ago, (XB1)Skippy575 said:

2 good abilities is only half of his kit. That's worse than four crap abilities that all function. 

They don't function. That is the point with Hydroid; his abilities are clunky and half of them have their mechanics tied to RNG. They do not work.

Also, all of Chroma's abilities function so I have no idea what you are talking about there. He has two really good abilities and two meh ones. That automatically makes him better than Hydroid, not worse.

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14 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Warframe is a game that provides alot of different characters with different playstyles. If you dont like what hydroid offers, you could look at another frame.

Again, this is not a valid response as all you are doing is just outright dismissing the criticism. That's a like a manager of a restaurant dismissing a customers complaint that their food arrived uncooked and half-eaten by telling them to "look for another place to eat". Its the exact same principle.

Warframe does offer many play-styles yes. The problem with Hydroid is that he tries to cover basically all of the playstyles, which just means he's inferior to everyone else. Hydroid's playstyle is a very poor mish-mash of various different ones. That is another reason why he needs a rework. Hydroid needs to be geared towards a specfic playstyle because right now he isn't.

14 minutes ago, chaotea said:

I see alot of hydroid users in later games and they hold up fine.

So what? That doesn't mean he's good. If you know what you are doing then you can literally go into a high level with any frame or weapon. Again though, that doesn't mean he hasn't got problems. Its the execution of his abilities and his schizophrenic approach to playstyles that hold him back.

14 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Instead of railing against what hes got, you can work with it.

I'm not "railing", I'm criticising. The issue when you try to work with Hydroid's abilities is that you have to work at least five times harder than other frames have to. You can work with Hydroid's kit all you want but its a stone cold fact that at the end of the day, he is vastly inefficient to other frames and has to put in more effort for the same reward. It's really not worth it and its one of the many reasons why Hydroid is one of the least used frames in the roster. 

There is only so much you can do, before you have to admit that he needs a rework in order to actually be worth using other any other frame.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Saying "Play a different frame" is the same thing as saying play a different game if you have issue with Warframe. People want to play the frame they want and feel they're contributing to something.

I disagree. Though i do think the answer to some peoples complaints is that they should play different games (like those who want it to be first person only, ect) if the game isnt what they want to be playing.

The point were you say 'this frame needs a buff' is fine. But the point where someone says 'they need an entire rework' is the point where another frame should be considdered. If none of the warframes abilities are working for you, why keep playing that warframe? Theres alot to choose from. And I say this as someone who does just move on from frames. I try them, and if im not loving it, i use something else.

1 hour ago, (NSW)Kokojo said:

Hydroid is on that spot where his abilities are a hindrance to the team and himself.

All of his abilities either ragdoll, flail or make enemies hard to hit in some way or another. The abilities themselves have little to no benefits to use (specially after status rework, since he can't fully strip armor anymore).

While his augment does need a buff, there are loads of frames that ragdoll. Many are quite popular atm. Khoras 4th for example. Hydroid is a CC king, and highly valuable in the right situations. In other situations, thats were you use another frame.

 

So that said, what would we look to rework? (as constructive critisism is better than just complaining). His barrage seems fine for the most part, just update that augment to do pure armor strip. His tide could do with some sort of utility buff, maybe healing or adding armor for each enemy hit? His pool should allow other players to add to enemy damage of the pool by shooting, like nyxs' absorb. His kraken could do with less flailing, or perhaps making all enemies caught in its grip share damage, so you only need to hit one?

These are off the top of my head ideas that could resolve the issues raised. Personally, i think this is the way to lead such discussions. Dont just point out problems, suggest solutions.

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22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

 (like those who want it to be first person only, ect)

That is a completely different issue entirely. That is changing a fundamental aspect of the game, not a feature within it.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

But the point where someone says 'they need an entire rework' is the point where another frame should be considdered.

This is flawed logic, as nothing would ever get changed if that was the case. The point with Hydroid is that his entire kit is really not good, which is why that people say he needs an entire rework. All of his abilites are flawed in some way. Unlike other frames who might only have one or two abilities that don't offer much, like Chroma, Hydroid doesn't offer anything. 

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

If none of the warframes abilities are working for you, why keep playing that warframe?

Because you like the frames concept, know that the frame could be better than it currently is and that you want to see it improve? 

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

While his augment does need a buff, there are loads of frames that ragdoll. Many are quite popular atm. Khoras 4th for example.

Difference is with other frames that ragdoll is that they don't do it in the same way Hydroid does. In Khora's example, her Strangledome keeps enemies suspended in the air, but they do not fail about like the enemies caught in Hydroid's tentacles do. Unlike them, the Strangledome keeps the enemies suspended in one place. That is the major difference between them and its why Khora is used more than Hydroid in farming locations now.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

Hydroid is a CC king

He really isn't. His CC is unreliable, clunky and inferior to other frames like Vauban, Limbo, Khora, Nidus etc etc. He is definitely not a king of CC.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

His barrage seems fine for the most part,

Charge mechanics, clunky collision detection, explosions sometimes don't even register to the enemy, projectiles come in at an angle and so they get caught on the environment a lot of the time, poor damage, annoying ragdoll effect and the projectiles don't even hit the enemy head on a lot of the time.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

His tide could do with some sort of utility buff, maybe healing or adding armor for each enemy hit?

So Revenant's Reave or Rhino's Ironclad Charge. While this would make the wave more useful, it is just copying other frames, not adding anything unique. It also doesn't solve the issue of you not any real control over the wave's direction once it's cast.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

His pool should allow other players to add to enemy damage of the pool by shooting, like nyxs' absorb.

His pool needs to completely removed from the game due to the fact it takes away basically all your interaction with the game, slows you down to a snails pace and forces you to sit there with enemies waiting for them to die by the awful scaling damage. No advantages to adding the ability for allies to shoot into it whatsoever as that doesn't address the core issues with it, nor does it help solo players either.

22 minutes ago, chaotea said:

His kraken could do with less flailing, or perhaps making all enemies caught in its grip share damage, so you only need to hit one?

Less flailing is on the right lines, but still not enough. The Swarm needs to be revamped entirely so that it doesn't just randomly spawn tentacles in places where they are 100% useless like under rocks, high walls, ceilings, corners etc etc, their movement isn't so horribly slow and their size isn't tiny. Also the tentacles like barrage sometimes do not even register enemies and just go straight through them.

These are the reasons why Hydroid does need a full rework to all of his abilities.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, this is not a valid response as all you are doing is just outright dismissing the criticism. That's a like a manager of a restaurant dismissing a customers complaint that their food arrived uncooked and half-eaten by telling them to "look for another place to eat". Its the exact same principle.

Im sorry, but this is stupid. Im just talking the anology, not any hydroid issue. Your resturant example, as the game, would be buying the game and it not being playble with half the code missing, not 1 of the 50 odd charaters not quite being as great as you like.

A more accurate annalogy would be that you order a fish dish, it arrives, and then you complain to the management that you dont like fish and they should give you something off menu that you do like, and replace that fish dish with your prefered dish so everyone else is eating it too.

Though i get that its not so dramatic, it does show that maybe you're taking the whole hydroid thing alittle hard. Take a step back, think about what you really want from an updated hydroid, then say in your topic exactly what you dont like with each ability, and make suggestions on how it could be changed.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

These are the reasons why Hydroid does need a full rework to all of his abilities.

These mostly arnt reasons why, but more just counter arguments to my thoughts. Make a critique, then suggest improvements yourself. Spure the imaginations of the devs, dont just shoot down ideas.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

While this would make the wave more useful, it is just copying other frames, not adding anything unique.

The problem is that it is already pretty unique. Its just you dont like any of the unique things it does.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

His pool needs to completely removed from the game

I'd disagree only in that i find this one of the more fun aspects of hydroid. Though perhaps having it as a cast on point that reamins where it is, sucking enemies in who step on it, and allow hydroid to also hide in it when moveing over.

2 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

. The Swarm needs to be revamped entirely so that it doesn't just randomly

Any suggestions on how you'd want this to happen?

Personally i'd change the tenticals to work like nidus's pull, grabbing enemies and pulling them to the kracken.

 

Again, I cant say this enough, critique not complain is the way to see things done. If you had opened with ideas, people would be discussing the ideas. If all you say is 'this is bad, i want change' then all you get are people saying they like it how it is.

On a personal level i dont mind if hydroid gets an update, but i dont think hes even the most pressing warframe who needs it. Grendal probably has it worse. And all that needs to take a back seat to general gameplay bugs and updating features.

Hydroids not great?, sure i can see that. But he still works. So maybe look to improve what he does. This likely will be more possible than an entire rework. But how can we expect the Devs to put the thought into a rework if we cant do the same?

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3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Undertow's scaling damage sounds nice on paper, but when you actually use it in game, its complete rubbish. The damage ticks up so incredibly slowly that its pointless even using it on low-levels and you can 100% forget about trying to kill any mid to high-level enemy with it in the next hundred years. The range on the puddle is also so small you might as well not even bother. That playstyle is also incredibly boring as well. 

His CC capability is also incredibly unreliable and inferior to other frames who are actually built with that in mind.

Hydroids invincibility is also vastly inferior to frames like Limbo, Nidus and Harrow to name a few, as it is reliant on you sitting in a puddle, not using your guns/melee and moving about as fast as a tired sloth. Those other frames can also cast their abilities while they're invincible, so Hydroid is not unique in that regard at all.

The final nail in the coffin is when Khora got her loot augment, which officially condemned Hydroid to the Swamps of Obsolescence.

One of Hydroid's main problems is boredom, but the other half is his inefficient RNG nature and clunky mechanics that plague his abilities. Both of those issues need to be reworked for him to be made good.

ryan newman no GIF by Alexander IRL

I agree with chaotea in that just because YOU don't like Hydroid's abilities doesn't mean he's boring or trash.  I for one embrace his funky talents and cannot think of a better frame suited for interception missions. I bet you are an Aim-bot Mesa fan or Saryn user on Hydron because nothing is more fun and whimsical than pulling a lvl 100 Bombard into my puddle to drown his sorrows.  His powers aren't perfect and yes could be made better, but DO NOT touch my Precious Puddle! The water balloon first power probably is my least favorite, but most Warframes have something that could be improved upon.  So Nyx's Chaos ability might be far reaching and useful, it's even worse when you spend energy and the enemy will still shoot at you, and Limbo...don't even get me started, Khoras Death dome isn't perfect either. (Don't use it on Index as the enemies can accidentally swing their points they are holding into the goal points....Awkward!). Math 101 kiddies  100% Loot > 65% Loot so he's still King of the Swamp!  Is Hydroid my goto frame for most missions, No, but that doesn't mean he's not viable for them either.  Boredom to me is playing any mission with a Saryn, so different strokes for different folks but that's the glory of Warframe!

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16 hours ago, chaotea said:

it not being playble with half the code missing, not 1 of the 50 odd charaters not quite being as great as you like

Not at all. 

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

A more accurate annalogy would be that you order a fish dish, it arrives, and then you complain to the management that you dont like fish and they should give you something off menu that you do like, and replace that fish dish with your prefered dish so everyone else is eating it too.

Now this is stupid, because this analogy implies that there is nothing inherently wrong with the fish dish and that the customer is just a spoilt brat who wants to get the fish dish replaced for everyone simply because he doesn't like it. Not the case whatsoever, as their are genuine issues with that fish dish. My first analogy was correct the first time, this is just an indirect pot-shot at my character by implying that I just don't like Hydroid as opposed to the frame having genuine problems.

Hydroid has real problems and that is a fact. Saying "Oh you just don't like him" does nothing to help anything at all and only highlights that you're not a very reasonable person.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

These mostly arnt reasons why, but more just counter arguments to my thoughts.

Yea they're called facts, which are reasons.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

Make a critique, then suggest improvements yourself. 

I have. Multiple times on here and on Reddit. I, as well as other Hydroid enthusiasts, have been campaigning for him to get a proper rework for ages and DE have thoroughly ignored all the suggestions. It gets frustrating after a while, especially when you see some truly awesome rework concepts that people have put up that would instantly put Hydroid in the meta. When the Helminth system was announced, the cynic that is me instantly started thinking that DE would use it as an excuse not to rework frames. But thankfully, Hydroid is so awful that even that system cannot save him, which is why I made this thread.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

The problem is that it is already pretty unique. Its just you dont like any of the unique things it does.

It's not unique. It's Excalibur's Old Slash dash in everything but name and is about as useful as Super Jump. The fact it drags enemies also isn't unique. Multiple frames can do that such as Banshee, Gauss, Nidus, Vauban etc and they are all far more useful. Tidal Surge is not unique at all. It's just another pointless travel ability.

Stop with the "You just don't like it" approach to arguing, because it makes you look immature.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

I'd disagree only in that i find this one of the more fun aspects of hydroid.

Then you're officially the third person I've encountered in my years of playing this game who actually likes that awful ability. Honestly I don't know how the three of you think sitting in a puddle waiting for enemies to die very slowly around you, while having no access to your weapons or your normal movement and speed is fun, but you do you.

Point is that most people rightly think its his most boring ability and one of the worst in game, so it will be removed or at the very least heavily reworked sooner or later.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

Any suggestions on how you'd want this to happen?

I already posted a links to some of my previously suggested changes. My old rework needs updating at this point since a few things have changed with the damage system and I've had a few new ideas for some abilities, but a lot of it remains relevant.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

If you had opened with ideas, people would be discussing the ideas.

I have opened with ideas multiple times. This is the only thread where I haven't, because I'm so bored of DE just ignoring all of the carefully crafted threads made by people suggesting genuinely amazing reworks for Hydroid and my cynicism for the Helminth system.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

On a personal level i dont mind if hydroid gets an update, but i dont think hes even the most pressing warframe who needs it. Grendal probably has it worse.

Grendels abilities are not RNG based, which means Hydroid is in more pressing need for a rework than him. Sure he's not in a great spot, but at least you know his abilities will affect enemies.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

But he still works.

He doesn't. That's the point. Half of his abilities are RNG based and have very, very clunky mechanics. Like I said with Barrage, it's projectiles come in at an odd angle, so a lot of the time they get caught on the surrounding environment, they don't hit enemies head on but rather the area around them, the projectile explosions don't register with enemies and so they just ignore them.

Swarm's tentacles spawn in completely random places which you have no control over whatsoever, their movement is slow, janky and sometimes they don't even grab enemies and pass right through them.

16 hours ago, chaotea said:

This likely will be more possible than an entire rework. But how can we expect the Devs to put the thought into a rework if we cant do the same?

It's entirely possible to do an entire rework and DE should do it, because Hydroid is probably the only frame who needs such drastic treatment, since his abilities come straight out of 2014 Warframe when the game was a lot slower paced than it is today.

And people have posted long and detailed rework ideas for Hydroid over the years, as I keep saying. Which is why it's annoying that after all this time they still haven't even said a word about Hydroid getting any changes when anyone asks. Hydroid is one of the least used frames in the game according to the Warframe usage chart, which even puts him below Banshee and there are very good reasons for that; he's boring, inefficient and for the large majority simply not very fun to play.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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23 hours ago, chaotea said:

Hydroids not that bad. Hes not top teir, but lots of frames arnt.

Hydroid is C tier along with Xaku, Grendel, Nyx and Zephyr. 

He truly is that bad.

23 hours ago, chaotea said:

You could just use a different frame.

Thus defeating the entire point in him needing a rework. 

He's an old frame that needs a rework. Desperately. 

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1 hour ago, KrazyKavatLady said:

Hydroid is C tier

A C is still a passing grade.

 

1 hour ago, KrazyKavatLady said:

Thus defeating the entire point in him needing a rework. 

It was more a comment on the exlimation that 'i dont like how any of his powers work'. Not, if you dont think a frame is good use something else.

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I don't understand how you all can discuss so much about hydroid. He is by far the worst frame ingame. There is just one situation where he is useful and this is on very specific farm missions (Silver grove mod farming). On all other situation are Nekros and Khora a better choice for farming and Oberon is the better allrounder.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb KrazyKavatLady:

Hydroid is C tier along with Xaku, Grendel, Nyx and Zephyr. 

He truly is that bad.

I disagree. Especially about about hydroid

  • OP (to strong. Even for warframe): Octavia 
  • S: (perfect): Saryn, Gauss, Nidus, Harrow...
  • A: (almost Perfect, but mandatory augments): Rhino, Hildryn,... 
  • B (Good frames, which are in the most times just weaker versions of others): Oberon, Mirage, Protea, ...
  • C (they work thanks to current times): Ash, Chroma, Loki, Frost, Nyx, Volt, ... (actually almost every vanilla frame)
  • D (playabale and funny, but almost never a good choice): Grendel, Limbo, Zephyr, Inaros ...
  • E (They can be useful/ funny): - 
  • F (If they would disappear no one would notice): Hydroid  

I don't have Xaku

I know everyone has his own opinion, but seriously saying that Hydroid is C-tier is like saying that Inaros is S-tier because he is almost unkillable.

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3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Stop with the "You just don't like it" approach to arguing, because it makes you look immature.

Though your own arguements are 'its bad because i think so and thus thats a fact'.

And now you're just attacking my character, which is fine, as long as you dont try to use that against me.

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

My first analogy was correct the first time, this is just an indirect pot-shot at my character by implying that I just don't like Hydroid as opposed to the frame having genuine problems.

Oh wait.

But seriously, my analogy wasnt an attack on your character. To be entirely transparent, i do think your acting very erractically, like everything im saying is a personal attack. But quite francly im not trying to say hydroid doesnt need any work. Im simply trying to open a discussion on how he could be improved and why.

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I have. Multiple times on here and on Reddit.

If thats the case, link that in the topic text. Though seeing as the second one says everything, this post is just you shouting for attention. Hemlith has been in the works for some time, and isnt DE washing thier hands of reworks and updates. Hell it will probalby help the process.

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Then you're officially the third person I've encountered in my years of playing this game who actually likes that awful ability. Honestly I don't know how the three of you think sitting in a puddle waiting for enemies to die very slowly around you, while having no access to your weapons or your normal movement and speed is fun, but you do you.

I think its the part where you turn into a puddle. Theres frames out there that are good. Rhino, valkyr, inaros. But they're boring (Thats just my opinion on them. Though by your own logic that makes it a fact, thus if you disagree with me your just being immature). Hydroids abilities are interesting, conceptually and visually. So maybe buff over full rework?

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

because Hydroid is probably the only frame who needs such drastic treatment

I mean we both know thats not true. theres at least 5.

 

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

which even puts him below Banshee

Whos an increadable mid game nuke dont forget.

3 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Hydroid is one of the least used frames in the game according to the Warframe usage chart,

Doesnt seem like it: 4X5y4DN.png

Not in 2018 anyway. Better than chroma.

 

While i know that this will only further infuriate you (every time i try to make a reasoned argument your replys seem to get angrier) i think there are good and bad sides to hydroid as is. The most reasonable idea at the moment is to do a buff on him, see if it works, and if not then look at possible reworks.

There are people who like hydroid, or who have differing opinions than your own. They're not wrong, but those opinions dont cancel out your own. Them choosing a different stance isnt an attack, and them saying that you dont like something isnt a personal attack. No ones opinions are facts, by definition. You can have an opinion based on facts, but it will always carry bias.

Side note, your concept you liked there has some interesting stuff. The idea for his 3 seems overly similar to alot of frames defensive abilities, but otherwise its solid.

pps. Ill probably try not to comment more as this could go on forever. Consider this my olive branch.

Edited by chaotea
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18 hours ago, (XB1)sinamanthediva said:

because nothing is more fun and whimsical than pulling a lvl 100 Bombard into my puddle to drown his sorrows

This is my exact thoughts. Sure, it would be great if it did more damage once youve got them, but just om-noming the in a pool is funny.

18 hours ago, (XB1)sinamanthediva said:

and Limbo...don't even get me started

See, i think limbo is great. I get why people struggle with him, i used to hate him (both using and playing with) but after his rework i tried again and came to love it. His 1 could definatly be swapped for something less troll worthy, but he makes a nice change to AFK frosts on defence missions.

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Am 15.9.2020 um 14:29 schrieb Wyrmius_Prime:

I honestly see no reason for his 1 and 4 to even have a charge time. The casts should be instant at their current max charge.

THIS 1000 times!

I played him a bit on Hydron this morning, just to play him, because he was one of my favourite frames in the past .. before this "charge up" mechanics came into the game and i cannot see one single positive argument to have charge time on his 1 & 4. Its just un-comfortable especially on console/controller gameplay because one has to press & hold two buttons to charge up AND its just unnecessary gameplay wise.

I beg to the devs to change this back to the older days funcionality in regard to the abilities & mod functionality.

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4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Though your own arguements are 'its bad because i think so and thus thats a fact'.

Completely incorrect. This is why I believe you either haven't read my responses properly, or you are just deliberately misinterpreting my argument in order to make it seem less than it actually is.

My argument is that Hydroid is bad because;

  • Tempest Barrage has its overall effectiveness tied to RNG/the environment and the enemy AI, which is completely awful for obvious reasons. It's projectiles also come in at an odd angle, which means they get caught on the environment a lot of the time, which further reduces the overall effectiveness of the ability and the projectiles do not hit the enemies head on, but rather the general area around them and they do rubbish damage. It also has a charge mechanic attached to it, which is a negative for any frame in this game where every second counts, but for Hydroid in particular its an absolute death sentence.
  • Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name and doesn't provide any real lasting benefits whatsoever.
  • Undertow is awful as it removes your weapons, removes your ability to run/parkour and reduces your speed to that of a snails pace. It also has absolutely pathetic scaling damage and you will not be killing anything remotely fast at all. And unfortunately it's Hydroid's only real form of long term survivability, which makes it even worse.
  • Tentacle Swarm shares the same issues as Barrage; it's overall effectiveness is mechanically tied to RNG/the environment and enemy AI. The tentacles spawn in completely random places, such as under rocks, up on high walls, in corners, on pillars etc etc. Basically places which the enemies will never go. From that point on you basically have to hope that the enemy walks into the absolutely pitiful grab range of the tentacles as well the fact that the tentacle swipes at the right time to pick up said enemy. More RNG on top of your RNG. The tentacle animation is incredibly slow and limited, the size of the tentacles mean's they won't be hitting anything that's more than three metres away from them which is rubbish in this game, their animations also make particularly annoying when you're trying to kill enemies who understandably are not dying from the poor damage the tentacles do, so you're forced to use a specific type of weapon (AOE) in order to kill them. Oh and it also has a charge mechanic attached to it as well.
  • His passive is 100% laughable. The tentacles are still terrible even when there is a whole group of them, but one is completely pathetic.

That is my argument. It is a fact that Hydroid's abilities are subpar to every other frame in the categories he tries to cover. It is a fact he does not do good damage, it is a fact he is not a reliable CC frame and it is a fact has no worthwhile utilities whatsoever. The three main areas that determine a Warframe's desirability/effectiveness. The main reasons for this are a combination of his absolutely awful mechanics which rely on RNG and the terrible execution of his abilities. These are facts, not opinions.

There is absolutely no reason/benefit to using him over other frames as all you do is essentially shoot yourself in the foot. He provides no worthwhile benefits when compared to others at all. He tries to do everything, but in doing so accomplishes nothing. Being a Jack of all Trades in this game is not a positive as it means you're less effective than the frames that actually focus on certain areas. Even Grendel, the runner up for worst frame ever, is above him purely due to the fact that his powers do not have to rely on the environment/RNG or the enemy AI at all.

This is my argument. It's not based on opinions. It's based on the mechanics of Hydroid's abilities and their overall effectiveness in a game like this (i.e; Facts)

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

i do think your acting very erractically, like everything im saying is a personal attack.

Don't exaggerate. I'm calling your analogy a cheap pot-shot, which it was because you made out like the person complaining was at fault rather than examining the thing he was complaining about. 

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Though seeing as the second one says everything, this post is just you shouting for attention.

No, it's me once again trying to remind DE that Hydroid is about as useful as a concrete parachute, after years of suggesting and commenting on rework ideas and that they can't just use the Helminth system as an excuse to no do anything.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Though by your own logic that makes it a fact

Once again you deliberately try to cheapen my argument by acting like I said boredom wasn't subjective. I said the majority of people find him very boring, which is a fact. Boredom is subjective and I never denied that. You find Valkyr boring? Great, so do I funnily enough. But she has actual benefits that I cannot deny, unlike Hydroid.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Hydroids abilities are interesting, conceptually and visually

On this we agree. Conceptually, Hydroid's theme as Warframe with the power over water sounds incredible as there are so many applications that sort of power can have such as; draining the water from enemies, controlling enemies via the moisture within their bodies, crushing enemies via manipulating water pressure, forming deadly appendages to use as weapons etc etc. There are so many possibilities with water manipulation. The issue is that DE have executed that theme about as well as an alcoholic eighty year old blind headsman with no arms. The mechanics for his abilities are absolutely terrible and that is the main issue.

Are you honestly saying that you wouldn't like to his powers implemented in a slightly better way than they are now at the very least?

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

I mean we both know thats not true. theres at least 5

If that's what you believe sure. I'm not going to claim otherwise as long as Hydroid is included in that list.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Whos an increadable mid game nuke dont forget.

So what? She's still used more than Hydroid by higher MR players.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Doesnt seem like it:

Yea, that chart that I was referring to earlier shows Hydroid being used more by lower level players MR10 - 16 tops. That's not really a point in his favour as that is the period when people are levelling frames up, doesn't mean they're good. You can see on the chart as the MR rank climbs higher, the further down Hydroid's usage stat goes and that is the most important statistic, since that is at the point where most people have acquired powerful mods and other frames and are focusing on "endgame" activities/levels.

The reason why Hydroid was even that high on the upper MR bracket in the first place was because of his loot augment.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Not in 2018 anyway. Better than chroma.

Again, you're looking at the lower MR bracket, when you should be focusing on the MR19+ bracket, as those are the players that have a large collection of frames and mods and are focusing on the high level contnet. If you did look at that bracket you will in fact see that Chroma is used more than Hydroid. And this chart was made before the subsequent MR ranks were reached.

Also, on that same chart you will see that Khora is used more than Hydroid in late game, and this was before Pilfering Strangledome was added into the game. I have no doubt that since this chart was made, Hydroid has further dropped down in the higher MR bracket since then.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

i think there are good and bad sides to hydroid as is.

And what's a good side to Hydroid? He doesn't do anything others cannot do and he doesn't do well in any area.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

They're not wrong

When they outright refuse facts like the ones I mentioned, then they are.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Side note, your concept you liked there has some interesting stuff. The idea for his 3 seems overly similar to alot of frames defensive abilities, but otherwise its solid.

Thank you. His three is similar to other defensive abilities I agree. It's the implementation of the mechanics that matters though.

The main point is I and others have been posting rework ideas and discussions for literal years at this point and DE diligently ignore it all entirely. It's frustrating. 

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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On 2020-09-15 at 11:10 AM, chaotea said:

I disagree. Though i do think the answer to some peoples complaints is that they should play different games (like those who want it to be first person only, ect) if the game isnt what they want to be playing.

The point were you say 'this frame needs a buff' is fine. But the point where someone says 'they need an entire rework' is the point where another frame should be considdered. If none of the warframes abilities are working for you, why keep playing that warframe? Theres alot to choose from. And I say this as someone who does just move on from frames. I try them, and if im not loving it, i use something else.

You'd be right, if Warframe didn't had Skins and customizations.

I like Hydroid's style overall but I want to play the game a while using the Waframe and feeling I'm contributing to something.

Hydroid is often better not using any of his powers or using his puddle as a panic button.

The point is asking for a rework right now is that they tried to buff him in is 1° revision. Not only the feedback was rather negative, mostly with "he's quite boring now", DE just moved on and with each update Hydroid's thing became less and less effective, be in CC, Support, Damage or just usefulness overall. With the Status effect rework, he cannot do that ramp up thing anymore with armored enemies AND corpus/Infested enemies have a buck load of more options to just denial Hydroid completely. Not only that but the environment itself became more sense and detailed, making his 1 and 4 quite the hassle to set up.

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8 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

I don't understand how you all can discuss so much about hydroid. He is by far the worst frame ingame. There is just one situation where he is useful and this is on very specific farm missions (Silver grove mod farming). On all other situation are Nekros and Khora a better choice for farming and Oberon is the better allrounder.

I disagree. Especially about about hydroid

  • OP (to strong. Even for warframe): Octavia 
  • S: (perfect): Saryn, Gauss, Nidus, Harrow...
  • A: (almost Perfect, but mandatory augments): Rhino, Hildryn,... 
  • B (Good frames, which are in the most times just weaker versions of others): Oberon, Mirage, Protea, ...
  • C (they work thanks to current times): Ash, Chroma, Loki, Frost, Nyx, Volt, ... (actually almost every vanilla frame)
  • D (playabale and funny, but almost never a good choice): Grendel, Limbo, Zephyr, Inaros ...
  • E (They can be useful/ funny): - 
  • F (If they would disappear no one would notice): Hydroid  

I don't have Xaku

I know everyone has his own opinion, but seriously saying that Hydroid is C-tier is like saying that Inaros is S-tier because he is almost unkillable.

Yikes.

The tiers are S - C.

There's nothing below C.

Here, go to this website, it shows you the tiers and where each warframe stands. You'll see that Hydroid is C tier, along with a few others. 

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vor 52 Minuten schrieb KrazyKavatLady:

Yikes.

The tiers are S - C.

There's nothing below C.

Here, go to this website, it shows you the tiers and where each warframe stands. You'll see that Hydroid is C tier, along with a few others. 

"C-tier: these are average, or only situational useful"~ my E-tier. I was there only a bit more specific/ nicer,  because

  • Nyx has very good CC, very good survivability (need the augment) and she can strip armor
  • Grendel has a good survivability, weak CC, can buff his teammates and he's funny (he turns into a giant meatball so it's a fact and not an opinion ^^ )
  • Zephyr: Actually I use her only for riven challenges, so allow me this: "Mighty @Birdframe_Prime is Zephyr so bad that she's in the same tier like Hydroid?"
  • Hydroid has only a weak CC ability and he makes it almost impossible to hit the target with a non aoe weapon. 

I would never say that one of them is good, but Hydroid is definitely much worse.

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Hydroid is not an F tear and definitely not worse than grendel or xaku.  Grendel is actually kind of unusable with the massive energy drain and his survivability isn't that good given the cost and set up of heals relative to what they give and his relatively mediocre armor at base. Ive been completely unable to play him in any corpus missions at all because he just cant take the damage they dish out or any nullification. 

He does need allot of quality of life changes though he just feels clunky and lacks the survivability to make up for it outside of his puddle. So its be a puddle or dont play hydroid. 

My solutions are a rather simple and aim to keep mostly the same abilities just gearing them better for warframes fast movement and amping up the synergy with melee combat to make him a melee swash buckling pirate. 


Tempest barrage:

  • add a mag proc at base
  • give it the option to follow hydroid (e.g tap for location and a short hold for follow or visa versa)
  • increase duration

It then acts as like an aoe aura which follows hydroid applying status effects and some cc. It would be great for condition overload melee and defence stripping with the augment.  It also allows hydroid to keep up speed wise which will feel better.  Also increase the duration as its actually ludicrous that mallet has 4x the duration of this ability with equal range or double range depending on if amp is active.  it also follows and moves around like how I suggest tempest barrage should  making it just overall superior. This comparison is the pinnacle of "death = the best crowd control" because mallet literally does everything this ability should do but replacing a knock down with murder. 

Tidal surge:
Get rid of it, its not even good mobility and currently its only function is to make puddle form slightly more tolerable by allowing you to move more, if you want that then integrate it into the puddle. There are for more interesting and thematic things you can do with this slot for example giving him a lure similar to titania's lantern. An ability like that would work great with Hydroid because it synergises with his other abilities my making them wander to their doom and is thematic fitting in with the mythical idea of a siren drowning sailors.  It also fits the melee play style I think would work well with him.

Undertow:
Put simply gotta go fast and id be willing to sacrifice the damage for it.  If you integrate the tidal surge functionality into the ability by making it a sprint that which costs energy then it could function like cloud walker.  It just doesn't feel great in a fast paced game to stop moving like that.   Its current function is a weird grouping ability and panic button, speed would let it do that which would also work well with the melee play style. 

Tentacle swarm:
Add a buff to hydroid where for the duration his attacks spawn tentacles.  This allows Hydroid to keep up speed wise, adds weapons synergy and also synergy with tempest barrage if you want to make that proc the effect too. It also just does what Hydroid's passive was meant to do but better for the cost of energy. 

Passive:
Too unreliable and gimmicky, ditch it. I say just give him an innate rolling guard where he turns into water for a couple of  seconds while dodging.  To balance you can make it cost energy and or have a cool down.  Custom dodges are in vogue right now  and I cant think of any where it makes more sense than the frame that literally turns into water.  

Edited by Solarsyphon
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15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Completely incorrect. This is why I believe you either haven't read my responses properly, or you are just deliberately misinterpreting my argument in order to make it seem less than it actually is.

This is enirely missinformed. I'm starting to think you are either choosing not to read my comments in full, or are purposfully misinterpreting my attempts at discussion in order to full your own agenda.

Especially seeing as you take entire paragraphs, and quote single lines out of context an get wound up about it.

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

My argument is that Hydroid is bad because;

And all of this is good. My main point was that none of this was your argument. Your main arguement was that you just said it all sucked and needed changing, and i was saying you should more clearly lay out your reasonings and your suggestions. Every time i did you've countered angrily. Just copy and past this assesment into the original post.

 

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Don't exaggerate. I'm calling your analogy a cheap pot-shot, which it was because you made out like the person complaining was at fault rather than examining the thing he was complaining about. 

This does seem like you're reacting like its a personal attack. Its very erratic.

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

they can't just use the Helminth system as an excuse to no do anything.

They havnt used it as an excuse. They've said that alot of frames will still be getting reworks, but older frames are priority.

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Once again you deliberately try to cheapen my argument by acting like I said boredom wasn't subjective.

No i was just using reverse logic, as you said your opinions werent opinions, they were facts. I was attempting to point out the fallicy of this stace by using it in a polar perspective, but once again you've seemed to not read the comment in full or purposly chosen to misconstrude it to further your world veiw. You've also taken the comment as a personal attack. Not erratic at this point though because it sort of was.

15 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

On this we agree. Conceptually, Hydroid's theme as Warframe with the power over water sounds

No, thats not agreeing. I said his abilities are interesting in concept, your saying that hydroid is interesting in concept. We're talking about different things here. Im starting to worry that you may be not reading the comments in full or have purposly chosen to misinterprate them to reinforce your own comments.

16 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Hydroid being used more by lower level players MR10 - 16 tops.

Its more MR12 - 21.

16 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Again, you're looking at the lower MR bracket, when you should be focusing on the MR19+ bracket

Actually, chroma only starts to push out on top around MR 24 / 25.

16 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And what's a good side to Hydroid?

If you make his energy colour yellow, he looks like hes got urine power. Thats one thing.

16 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

When they outright refuse facts like the ones I mentioned, then they are.

Again, those were opinions. I get that this is confusing for you. When you say something that isnt backed up by statistical evidence, thats an opinion.

16 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

The main point is I and others have been posting rework ideas and discussions for literal years at this point and DE diligently ignore it all entirely. It's frustrating. 

Hardly. Think about how long DE took to rework Vauban. Now we could see this as them being lazy, or ignoring the comunity. Or we could considder that making a video games is hard, time intensive work. I work in Architecture. Do you know how long it takes for, lets say and office, to be built? People see buildings being made, and might say a few months. But it generally takes years. Some are in the works for 3-4 years before they're done. Game design can be similar. Theres so much process that we dont know about.

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On 2020-09-15 at 2:41 PM, TheGodofWiFi said:

-snip-

  • DE said that it won`t stop them from doing reworks, revisits and QOL`s on warframe but I don`t believe them and I hope they are not thinking this Ash is a prime example of on that needs a revisit.
  • Tbh I could not think of a better idea but like you said it better than the current passive, it gives you time to preform ground finishers.
  • I meant increase it`s cast speed but I do agree that it should have the high damage and range just on a normal cast.
  • This is an ability I don`t think needs to be replaced, i`d rather have it improved. Having the option to stop by pressing the ability again is one way of helping it instead of just hitting walls. The double damage is from kraken being in-bedded into your 2nd ability which ties in to where you want it to go.
  • I agree but I don`t know what to do to it or what to replaces it with.
  • It might not fix the issues with him but what`s the point of having the kraken show up but do nothing, i`ll admit it`s more of fun over usefulness besides I see taking enemies off them map entirely useful.

Just to say if you`re going to say a frame needs a rework, revisit or QOL, you should at least tell ppl what you would do so i`ll ask... what would you do to make him good?

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On 2020-09-15 at 1:58 PM, Marine027 said:

This here so much, same reason i not like it, it feels like a lame excuse to safe up on reworks becasue now if somthing is "bad" you can just replace it, robbing frames of there identity, what baffles me most is this, you can only use a specific power, yet can replace everything you want? Seems arguing against itself from the start. Another system slapped on and soon be left in the dust again like Focus.

Exactly! the "robbing frame`s identity" is another reason why I don`t like the system, also can they keep up with it when new warframes come out or when they either revisit a ability or replace it?. Me personally I would rather the ability to swap warframe passives, just imagine the possibilities of that concept, for example Ash`s passive on equinox.

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4 hours ago, chaotea said:

This is enirely missinformed. I'm starting to think you are either choosing not to read my comments in full, or are purposfully misinterpreting my attempts at discussion in order to full your own agenda.

Okay this is becoming a completely ridiculous "No you!" situation now. You accused me of saying Hydroid is bad purely because I think so, when that is not the case at all. 

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Your main arguement was that you just said it all sucked and needed changing, and i was saying you should more clearly lay out your reasonings and your suggestions

Like I keep saying to you over and over again, I as well as others have posted multiple times on here and elsewhere about Hydroid and DE continually ignore all suggestions and don't even talk about the possibility of a rework for the frame. Multiple large WF youtubers also repeatedly state that Hydroid sucks as well, and DE listen to them more than anyone most of the time. If that is seriously your argument then you really are just nitpicking.

Years upon years of suggestions have been put forward already.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

They havnt used it as an excuse.

Yet.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

No i was just using reverse logic, as you said your opinions werent opinions, they were facts.

This is what an opinion looks like; "Hydroid looks horrible in the colour yellow."

This is what a fact looks like; "Hydroid's abilities are statistically and mechanically inferior to everything else in the category."

So your attempt at reversing logic doesn't work as it deals with something I never even said in the first place. I am arguing from the facts, not opinions. Everything I posted about Hydroid about how he sucks is a fact. Boredom and enjoyment are subjective and I never claimed otherwise. Its a fact that Hydroid statistically and mechanically, sucks and the majority of people find him boring. Those are not opinions. 

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

I said his abilities are interesting in concept, your saying that hydroid is interesting in concept.

When we're talking about concepts, Hydroid and his abilities are one and the same because we're not talking about the execution. Why are you even arguing this?

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Its more MR12 - 21

His highest usage is 11 - 15, after that it goes down. The chart is right in front of you.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Actually, chroma only starts to push out on top around MR 24 / 25.

No, his usage is equal at around MR21 and then pushes upwards from there. Why do you keep misquoting the chart when it's literally right there?

The main point is that the higher level you go, the further down Hydroid's usage drops and there is a reason for that. And just another reminder, this chart was made before Hydroid's loot augment was made redundant and the changes to corrosive were introduced.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

If you make his energy colour yellow, he looks like hes got urine power. Thats one thing.

I rest my case.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Again, those were opinions.

The fact that half of Hydroid's abilities are RNG/environment/AI based and the other half are just inferior versions of already good abilities, are not opinions. 

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

When you say something that isnt backed up by statistical evidence, thats an opinion.

We do have statistical evidence.

We have Hydroid's pitiful damage numbers, we have demonstrable evidence that half of his abilities are RNG based, evidence that his mechanics make him completely undesirable when compared to other frames and evidence that most of the community find Hydroid's abilities to be incredibly subpar and his gameplay to be very boring. The chart shows a steady decline in Hydroid's usage before the changes to corrosive and Khora's loot augment. It's called a trend and given the overall reputation of Hydroid within the community since his introduction six years ago, I daresay it's not much of a stretch to state that he has probably fallen further down the usage ladder in the last two years.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Now we could see this as them being lazy, or ignoring the comunity. Or we could considder that making a video games is hard, time intensive work.

Don't give me that.

Making a video game at all is hard work and we all know that. If you're prepared to make a video game on the scope of Warframe, then you have shown that you're not afraid of a little work involved in changing a feature within it. Warframe is an ever evolving game and therefore requires changes frequently due to changes in the game's central mechanics, how it plays etc etc. Plenty of old frames have been brought up to speed in the current game. Look at Ember. Before her changes she was simply used as a starchart nuke, but now she can actually do well in high levels. That took effort and work.

Don't try and sell me that "working is hard" rubbish because it does in fact make you look lazy and you want to find anything to excuse that behaviour.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

I work in Architecture. Do you know how long it takes for, lets say and office, to be built?

Let me ask you something, when a client comes along and asks you to change a particular aspect of your hypothetical office design, do you sit there and go "Haven't you considered that this might be a bit hard and time-consuming for me?". No of course not because that is not an excuse and speaking like that to a client would get you fired instantly. Why should the client care at all about how hard your workload may be? It's a business relationship not a personal one. You are the one who has advertised yourself as an Architect, not him. You chose a career which requires hard work with the knowledge that it would be time-consuming and so you have stated indirectly that you are fully prepared for the workload that comes with that career. You don't get to sit there and say "This is hard and time-consuming" as an excuse to not do work because you chose to enter that career with the knowledge that its not easy in the first place.

"Making video games is hard and time-consuming", of course it is and DE know that yet still made a video game in the first place. What kind of an excuse is that? You want a job that isn't as hard, then go work as a barista serving coffee to your average joe/jane in a shop. Don't sit there making lazy excuses to not do the job that you signed up for.

4 hours ago, chaotea said:

Theres so much process that we dont know about.

So. What.

I have no doubt some of your clients don't know how you create designs and they do not care, nor should they be expected to because its not their responsibility to care about your stress levels. You are the one being paid to deliver a product, not sit there and whine about how the client doesn't know the stress you go through. I have absolutely no idea how an electrician does their job, which the whole reason why I would hire one in the first place, nor should I care about their stress levels if they is using that as an excuse to not do the work I am paying them for.

Seriously this is just a pitiful attempt at excusing DE's steadfast ignoring of issues because all you do is make both yourself and DE look lazy.

Honestly, its clear to me now that you are just nitpicking at this point about me not laying out my complaints out thoroughly despite the fact that I have done so countless times already in various threads and posts and don't really have any real defence for Hydroid at all, which isn't a surprise because he is factually indefensible. Thanks for further proving that.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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To the people who say that Hydroid isn't worse than frames like Zephyr, Grendel, Xaku or Nyx;

Seriously guys?

While they admittedly do need work, they are 100% above Hydroid due to his absolutely awful mechanics and the fact has no good side whatsoever, which has been proven time and time again by the people who try to defend him.

 

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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