DE, can Hydroid please get a rework.

[Chimiasai]

Hydroid is usable, true...

But whenever i see his kit and the augments, i can only think about "How can i fit every augments in a build?"... Seriously, i'd not say those augments are that powerful but they increase the ability of Hydroid and as such, i do think he needs to have his toolkit changed to be easy to use.

 

Passive

Instead of having a chance to summon one tendril after one slam attack, it has 25% to summon one tentacle for each enemies. Those tentacles have a duration of 10 seconds but peoples can shoot/hit it and the damages are applied to the target of the tentacle. Once the enemy, that tentacle will try to latch onto another target.

Why that change? Hydroid is a support/CC frame. That passive is simply a way for hydroid to control a large chunk of enemies if that passive is used at the right moment and not a clunky ability.

 

Tempest Barrage

• Change the damage type to be a mix of Impact and Corrosive (50% for each type): At max level, the ability would deal 75 impact damage and 75 corrosive damage, granting the ability to strip the armor as a baseline.
• Change the behaviour of the ability. While the projectiles still appear, they don't matter to the ability anymore (Just effects/cosmetics). Instead the damages will be dealt directly from the ground so it will avoid any issues with the environment.
• Change the pattern of the explosions. Instead of being a bunch of randomized of effects all around the targeted zone, the pattern would be a pulse from the center to the exterior that repeat itself every 3 seconds.

Why those changes: To make the ability more reliable to hit ennemies and less strained by the environment while making more useful against armored target.

 

Corroding Tempest (Augment)

• Change the nature of the augment as an effect that impact both Shield and Armor:
  • If an explosion hit an armored enemy, the enemy will lose 30% of it's current armor definitely and every enemies around it will receive Corrosive damage equivalent to the value removed.
  • If an explosion hit a shielded enemy, the enemy will lose 30% of his shield and deal Magnetic damage all around him equivalent to the shield remove.
• While the shield drain/armor removal effect will always work, each ennemies can only "explode" every 8sec

Why to change the nature of the augment: While it stay in the domain of corroding an armor, it's better for Hydroid to have an ability that can scales with the level of the enemies. But the values need to be tweaked.

 

Tidal Surge

• Remove the link between Duration and the speed of the tide and put instead a 40m/s movement speed for that ability.
• Give the ability to cancel the wave by pressing 2 once again.
• Once the wave end, the enemies are unable to move, gasping for air, increasing the finisher damage they may receive by 200%. That effect only last for 2 seconds but can increase by modding for duration.

Why change Tidal surge? Tidal surge is clunky to use and if you use a negative duration mod, it makes it bordeline useless. Instead, the ability will now work to ragdoll the enemies but also to make it interesting to take avantage of the period where they're on the ground.

 

Undertow

• Change the appearance/mechanic of the ability: Instead of having only a puddle, there will also be a sphere above it that can be shot as if it is a part of the puddle.
• If an enemy is killed inside the undertow, Hydroid is healed for 25hp, that heal also applies to the companion of Hydroid (Sentinels and pets)

Why those two changes? To increase the survivability of Hydroid during medium to high level missions while making it easier for the allies to hit the enemies inside the puddle by targeting the sphere... Or using weapons with punch through.

 

Curative Undertow (Augment)

• Change the nature of the heal: Once an enemy is killed in the undertow, the puddle will pulse and grant a passive regeneration of 20hp/s to any allies around the puddle.
• That effect will remains for 8 sec but it can be stacked three times (Increasing the regeneration to 60hp/s).
• Strength and duration will affect the duration and the strength of the effect while range will affect how far the pulse can reach allies.

Why change it as a regeneration effect? Simply put, Curative Undertow is extremely powerful but it ask for Hydroid to follow his allies or to always stay in the puddle to heal them. That change will put the focus on the Undertow being a tool for the allies and not only a out-of-jail card or a circumstantial nuke.

 

Tentacles Swarm

• The damages and status effect done to the tentacles are applied to the enemies grabbed by them.
• If a tentacle doesn't have any enemies in its range for 2.5 sec, the tentacle will despawn and another tentacle will reappear under the feet of an enemy.
• Synergy with Tidal surge: Enemies gasping for air won't be grabbed with the tentacles but will still suffer from the damages as if they were grabbed.
• Synergy with Undertow: Any damage done to the puddle or the sphere will be applied to any enemies grabbed by the tentacles swarm and will apply the effect of the undertow (Such as the small heal for hydroid or the healing pulse from the augment). That effect only count for the tentacles created by the Tentacles Swarm

Why those changes to the swarm? Simply put, the ability can be interesting but is stuck with two issues: The enemies are difficult to hit when flailed around and once the enemies aren't in range of the tentacles, it makes those tentacles useless. Instead, the idea is to hit the tentacles provided by Hydroid or the Undertow that, in the right circumstances, be a nuke if the allies use it. Meanwhile, the synergy with Tidal Surge is mostly a way to passively increase the damage of an Hydroid alone.

 

 

Yeah, some of those ideas may rework entirely an augment but i've thought about those changes without removing/reworking the base abilities.

 

[Birdframe_Prime]

18 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Mighty @Birdframe_Prime is Zephyr so bad that she's in the same tier like Hydroid?

I...

Have been summoned...

Well, despite my love for the frame, that love is based not on the actual power of the frame, but on the way playing her makes me feel, thanks to her passive, her mobility and her base as a weapons platform that can, given the situation, let you simply ignore a huge portion of the enemies while you do what you want.

I am not blind to her flaws. Those are many, and do need to have some effort put in by DE to become really good.

So I would actually put Zephyr on par with Hydroid, but with the qualifier that I don't think Hydroid is bottom-of-the-barrel bad either.

Hydroid has a 1 that is useful in given situations, but takes the right modding to do so, and is often a hindrance due to how you have to cast it. Same with Zephyr.

He has a 2 that is very functional, does exactly what it says it does, but what it does is just... underwhelming. Same with Zephyr.

He has a 3 that allows him functional invulnerability and the option to either engage with or ignore enemies for as long as its active, and becomes vulnerable when it ends. Same as Zephyr, but obviously has completely different play styles.

And a 4 that could be one of the best in the game if it was less erratic, didn't spawn in such a random way, didn't require specifically modding for it, and didn't make things awkward for allies when they're not familiar with how it works. Again, same for Zephyr.

They're both functional and often fun frames, but they aren't anywhere near great, and both need work before they ever will be. The game's meta won't just magically shift around to bring them back, like Steel Path brought back enemies that are fun to strip off their defenses and suddenly Nyx is having a lot of fun there.

Both frames need work, and both will remain a solid C grade because there's nothing about them that doesn't actually work. It just doesn't do enough to make those things about them work well enough to be considered a higher grade. They don't lose, in the ranking of frames, but they're definitely not winners.

[Yismir]

A suggestion i haven't seen anywhere in this post: instead of a slow or fast undertow movement just mix undertow with tidal surge. When you move in undertow you become a wave and you go very fast around bringing enemies with you, still suffocating them, but you drain double the energy. This would leave a free spot for a new ability and doesn't seem too OP since the added drain would force you to stop. You can also make that you are vulnerable to damage while in wave/moving form to reduce the OPness of the mechanic.

[Althaline]

Hydroid isn't a bad frame, but he's not really my style because all of his abilities are designed for area control. I wouldn't be opposed to usability or QOL improvements for his abilities (such as those suggested by @Chimiasai), but he's definitely not deserving of a full rework.

[Wolfchild07]

Yes, he needs buffs. But I gotta say soloing isolation vaults is so easy for him. Yes, necramechs take longer to die, but he has zero chance of dying in that puddle, dragging them back into his tentacles and not activating their invulnerability as they're not aware of him. Very relaxing.

I would like to see his tentacles have a radial menu of formations, such as a circle to surround a defense target or something so enemies can't just run straight through them and just get ignored. In addition to the current random all over the place tentacles that all spawn in the exact spot you're aiming if there aren't enough enemies, of course.

[Lone_Dude]

Hahahahahahahaha lmao what the #*!% people defend a broken frame with 4 useless abilities, holy S#&$ this aint real

[Chimiasai]

10 hours ago, Lone_Dude said:

Hahahahahahahaha lmao what the #*!% people defend a broken frame with 4 useless abilities, holy S#&$ this aint real

Hydroid isn't broken by his abilities. In fact, what Hydroid is missing is a true identity, making him a cluster#*!% of potentially useful abilities:

As a CC frame, his ability are either too clunky (Tidal surge), unreliable (Tentacle swarm, the passive and tempest barrage) or enabling a passive gameplay which is the opposite of what Warframe is currently standing for (Undertow)

As an enabler/support, Hydroid is forced to play with his augments to get it... Either to drop items, to heal allies, to make allies immune to status or by removing the armor of the ennemis

As a farming frame? Once again, Tentacles Swarm is too unreliable and needs an augment for it.

 

And yet, he's able to touch those three roles and even more with his current toolkit. The problem is, Hydroid has a gameplay stretched over multiples roles and therefore doesn't shine in any role in an era where Warframes are able to take multiples roles and shine in it.

To be honest, if the augments of Hydroid were merged to the warframe, it would increase his potential but not by much. Reworking it would help but if DE is still unable to tell the role/identity of Hydroid, he'll stay useless. So he's not broken in a sense that his abilities are that lackluster (Hell, we've warframes in a worse state than Hydroid) but he truly lacks an identity on its own...

 

Maybe one day, it'll change but from what we've seen from the last "rework" of Hydroid, unless they're able to point out what Hydroid is supposed to do, the changes won't be enough.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

I agree that DE needs to give Hydroid another look, at least make it so his CC doesn't flail people around. Don't stop, keep this up on the front page. 

[(PSN)SlyFox5679]

I think hydroid had a rework or update awhile ago and i'd rather see Frost get a update/rework next

[SolidSnake8774]

Hydroid is not as bad as some people are making him out to be. I dont think he needs a full rework but some tweaks/adjustments to tighten up his kit and possibly fuse some redundant similar powers. Some I proposed here: 

I'd be more inclined for Frost to have a rework than Hydroid. Not that Frost is bad, but his kit is far more outdated than Hydroids including his augments.

[-Onyx-Phalian]

12 hours ago, SolidSnake8774 said:

Hydroid is not as bad as some people are making him out to be. I dont think he needs a full rework but some tweaks/adjustments to tighten up his kit and possibly fuse some redundant similar powers. Some I proposed here: 

I'd be more inclined for Frost to have a rework than Hydroid. Not that Frost is bad, but his kit is far more outdated than Hydroids including his augments.

Well unlike Hydroid, Frost does something relatively well. He is king of Defense missions and his Avalanche strips armor so why does he need a rework more than Hydroid? He has a mission type he is the best for as well as good CC and Armor Strip. Hydroid only has CC and most of it ragdolls enemies or flails them about, making them hard to shoot. 

[SolidSnake8774]

5 hours ago, -Onyx-Phalian said:

Well unlike Hydroid, Frost does something relatively well. He is king of Defense missions and his Avalanche strips armor so why does he need a rework more than Hydroid? He has a mission type he is the best for as well as good CC and Armor Strip. Hydroid only has CC and most of it ragdolls enemies or flails them about, making them hard to shoot. 

Everything you just mentioned, is in the same arguments that some are doing against hydroid.  Other warframes do same thing better, which is more apparent since he's hard made for one role, where Hydroid isnt made to be a particular role but a versatile role.

I wont get too much into frost, cause this is a discussion of hydroid. But much the same problem with hydroid is more so for Frost, cause they suffer from the same effect, thier kits being from an old era. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-09-17 at 6:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

So I would actually put Zephyr on par with Hydroid, but with the qualifier that I don't think Hydroid is bottom-of-the-barrel bad either.

Bird, how on earth can Zephyr be on the same level as Hydroid? She at the very least has one very useful ability that does not remove your gameplay, which automatically makes her better than him.

Also, if Hydroid isn't at the bottom of the barrel, then who is? No other frame in the game has his awful RNG mechanics and schizophrenic approach to gameplay.

On 2020-09-17 at 6:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Hydroid has a 1 that is useful in given situations

What situations are those, because I cannot think of any realistic scenario in which Barrage would be more useful than other better forms of CC/Damage.

On 2020-09-17 at 6:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

He has a 3 that allows him functional invulnerability and the option to either engage with or ignore enemies for as long as its active, and becomes vulnerable when it ends. Same as Zephyr

Completely different than Zephyr. Her survival ability does not take away the game's interaction and force you to move at a snails pace. That automatically makes it better.

On 2020-09-17 at 6:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

And a 4 that could be one of the best in the game if it was less erratic, didn't spawn in such a random way

Exactly. Zephyr's tornados are similar, but it's also notably easier to hit enemies in them than hitting enemies grabbed by Hydroids tentacles. Don't get me wrong, the tornadoes are annoying as well, but they're less annoying than Hydroid.

On 2020-09-17 at 6:26 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Both frames need work, and both will remain a solid C grade because there's nothing about them that doesn't actually work.

I agree that both frames need work, but Hydroid is nowhere near a C grade at all. More like a mile behind an F grade. Hydroid also does not work. That's why his abilities are so awful. They're based on RNG.

On 2020-09-18 at 4:12 PM, Iamabearlulz said:

Hydroid isn't a bad frame, but he's not really my style because all of his abilities are designed for area control. I wouldn't be opposed to usability or QOL improvements for his abilities (such as those suggested by @Chimiasai), but he's definitely not deserving of a full rework.

Hydroid is bad. His entire kit is subpar to everything else in the game. There is nothing that he does, that another frame cannot do but better. That is his problem. Half of his abilities are pointless and the other half are RNG based. No other frame has these awful mechanics. He definitely needs a full rework.

On 2020-09-21 at 6:31 AM, (PS4)SlyFox5679 said:

I think hydroid had a rework or update awhile ago and i'd rather see Frost get a update/rework next

He didn't get a rework. He got some cynically timed tweaks before his Prime came out so DE could claim they'd done something. The tweaks solved nothing and only further made his issues worse. Frost needs work I agree, but he functions better than Hydroid.

On 2020-09-21 at 6:44 AM, SolidSnake8774 said:

Hydroid is not as bad as some people are making him out to be. I dont think he needs a full rework

No one is overplaying Hydroids current state in the game. He is as bad as people say. His abilities are unreliable, janky, don't do much damage and the CC capability is laughable. Every single other frame in the game is better than him due to the fact no one else relies on RNG to the extent that Hydroid does.

[TheGodofWiFi]

On 2020-09-22 at 1:13 AM, SolidSnake8774 said:

But much the same problem with hydroid is more so for Frost, cause they suffer from the same effect, thier kits being from an old era. 

The difference between Frost and Hydroid is that yes, while their kits haven't been changed a lot since their introduction, Frosts abilities do not rely on RNG. It's about the execution of a frames abilities that matter. Look at a frame like Loki for example, his kit has remained unchanged since his introduction and yet due to the nature/execution of his abilities, he still a very popular frame for high MR players. So some frames kits stand the test of time. 

Hydroid's kit however, was never that great even back when he was introduced and it most certainly has not stood the test of time. Frost needs work don't get me wrong, but Hydroid is far more in need of one than he is by the very fact that if you use Frost's abilities, you don't have to worry about whether or not enemies will be affected by them.

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Bird, how on earth can Zephyr be on the same level as Hydroid?

You're going into this and picking apart my statements trying to defend a case that doesn't need defending.

I love Zephyr and will play her for choice whenever I can. I know exactly what ways Zephyr is better than Hydroid. But, I also know that in some ways Hydroid can be better than Zephyr.

Objectively looking at what the two frames can do, what they could do with changes, what they don't do, and what they attempt to do and fail at, they end up on approximately the same tier of the game. That is all my comment is stating.

I made some sweeping comments that compare the two, and I do want to point out that you even cherry-picked from those to try and contest them (which I still don't know why you bothered to do that, because I used terminology so vague that I could argue this around 'til the cows come home).

What I don't accept out of your overall point, though, is the idea that Hydroid is objectively bad. His kit may be sub-par, but that's exactly the term I will use: Par. Average.

Being below average is a very large area before you get to bad. Just as being above par is a very large area before you get to S Tier, or 'broken'.

I do not respect any opinion that just claims a frame is bad when the only thing that opinion is using to judge 'bad' is the other frames. That's like saying the 8th place Olympic level sprinter is bad at sprinting because seven other sprinters beat them.

Pick your terminology a little more carefully, because 'towards the bottom of the rankings' and 'bad' are two different things.

[selig_fay]

It's weird to see people say that hydroyd isn't bad.

I will not compare it to other frames and say that its only useful ability is its 1. 

2 is not mobile, deals little damage and I don't know if it's worth spending energy on it at all.

3 is a full reflection of Hydroud. You go to the bottom to waste energy and do nothing. Yes, useful for interceptions before the first energy leech.

4 strange ability. I swear my ogris makes a nicer CC than that. On the other hand, put an augment and people will say, oh, this is A rank, because it is farming resources. No, even with augment, I will consider it a trash.

The set of abilities has great potential, but their implementation suffers. And yes, I'll be better to play frost because frost does a lot of things, including nucking 60 levels.

[Mardomus]

His augment for barrage needs a buff. Armor stripping is way faster then what his augment gives. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

I do not respect any opinion that just claims a frame is bad when the only thing that opinion is using to judge 'bad' is the other frames.

That is one of the main ways people judge a frame/weapon in this game and has been since its inception. If there is something in the game that does a job better than something else, then it already is not looking good. Also, that's only half my argument. The other half is this;

On 2020-09-16 at 6:26 PM, TheGodofWiFi said:

My argument is that Hydroid is bad because;

• Tempest Barrage has its overall effectiveness tied to RNG/the environment and the enemy AI, which is completely awful for obvious reasons. It's projectiles also come in at an odd angle, which means they get caught on the environment a lot of the time, which further reduces the overall effectiveness of the ability and the projectiles do not hit the enemies head on, but rather the general area around them and they do rubbish damage. It also has a charge mechanic attached to it, which is a negative for any frame in this game where every second counts, but for Hydroid in particular its an absolute death sentence.
• Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name and doesn't provide any real lasting benefits whatsoever.
• Undertow is awful as it removes your weapons, removes your ability to run/parkour and reduces your speed to that of a snails pace. It also has absolutely pathetic scaling damage and you will not be killing anything remotely fast at all. And unfortunately it's Hydroid's only real form of long term survivability, which makes it even worse.
• Tentacle Swarm shares the same issues as Barrage; it's overall effectiveness is mechanically tied to RNG/the environment and enemy AI. The tentacles spawn in completely random places, such as under rocks, up on high walls, in corners, on pillars etc etc. Basically places which the enemies will never go. From that point on you basically have to hope that the enemy walks into the absolutely pitiful grab range of the tentacles as well the fact that the tentacle swipes at the right time to pick up said enemy. More RNG on top of your RNG. The tentacle animation is incredibly slow and limited, the size of the tentacles mean's they won't be hitting anything that's more than three metres away from them which is rubbish in this game, their animations also make particularly annoying when you're trying to kill enemies who understandably are not dying from the poor damage the tentacles do, so you're forced to use a specific type of weapon (AOE) in order to kill them. Oh and it also has a charge mechanic attached to it as well.
• His passive is 100% laughable. The tentacles are still terrible even when there is a whole group of them, but one is completely pathetic.

These are not opinions. Hydroid is factually bad because half of his abilities are tied to RNG while the other half are just plain useless and are inferior to every other frame in the category. That's a fact. That is how he is bad.

[TheGodofWiFi]

13 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Objectively looking at what the two frames can do, what they could do with changes, what they don't do, and what they attempt to do and fail at, they end up on approximately the same tier of the game.

No. What Zephyr and Hydroid try to do is irrelevant, its how they do it that matters. Zephyr's execution is better than Hydroid's simply because she has at least one very useful ability.

If we all just put Warframes on the same tier then no frame gets prioritised and the last thing the worst frame in the game needs is to be put on the back-burner even longer.

[(PSN)AccursedImmortal]

Hydroid is just my alt farmer. I don't expect Nekros to be amazing either.

[Teridax68]

If the only way to make a frame worth using is to give it another frame's ability, then that frame is not worth using, and one may as well use that other frame instead. As it stands, I fully agree with the OP: Hydroid is perfectly-suited for a rework, as he is neither strong nor fun for most to play. In terms of balance, there is absolutely nothing he does that other frames don't do better, particularly after Khora's Strangledome augment stole the one role in the game that he had (which arguably shouldn't even be a role, but let's not get into that here). In terms of design, he is visibly old, as in pre-Parkour 2.0 old, with quite possibly (and ironically) the least fluid kit in the entire game.

Just to do a quick assessment of his current ability set:

• His base stats are unremarkable. Prior to Parkour 2.0, he was known for having high Stamina (the resource previously used for mobility), but that hasn't been a thing for ages.
• His passive is at best inconsequential and unreliable, and at worst gets in the way by making enemies harder to hit and alerting others unintentionally. The fact that this passive is effectively a downgrade is but one of the many signs that he needs to change.
• His 1 deals pitiful damage, hits unreliably, makes enemies harder to hit with the knockdown, and has the armor strip on its augment outperformed by pretty much any other, as it only offers Corrosive procs rather than percentile armor reduction.
• His 2 is a worse bullet jump. The mobility offered by this ability has aged terribly since Parkour 2.0 became a thing, to say nothing of the pathetic damage and, once again, the chaotic CC knocking enemies about and making them harder to hit. There is virtually never any reason to use this.
• His 3 renders him near-immobile in a game with high player mobility as one of its key selling points. The tradeoff? Invulnerability, which has become less relevant over time, and really mediocre CC and damage. Unlike the 2 there are some occasions where the ability is useful, especially with the augment, but they're still few and far between, and the core ability remains tedious to use.
• His 4 flails enemies about, once again making them harder to hit, and once again deals pitiful damage (and Magnetic damage, for whichever reason, one of the worst damage types in the game). Its only saving grace was its Pilfering Swarm augment, which gave Hydroid a niche, but with the changes and expansion to loot effects, even that's lost its relevance.

So TL;DR: Hydroid is a frame whose abilities are mediocre at best, and at worst a detriment to play due to their chaotic and disruptive nature. Frames like Vauban, Nidus, and Khora outperform essentially his entire kit with just one or two abilities, and are significantly less clunky to boot. He needs a rework, and not just the half-baked changes he got last time, but comprehensive ability overhauls in the style of Nezha and Wukong.

My take on Hydroid 2.0:

• Passive: Hydroid's headshots add a stacking damage multiplier to his next melee finisher, and finishers add a stacking damage multiplier to his next headshot.
• 1 - Tempest Barrage: Hydroid calls down an aquatic cannonball at the target area, dealing scaling Impact damage to enemies hit, stunning them briefly (and opening them to finishers), and shredding their armor and shields.
  • Augment - Depth Charge: The cannonball remains in place for a duration, turning into a trap that detonates on enemy proximity to apply its effects again.
• 2 - Tidal Surge: Hydroid summons a wall of water that rapidly travels in the target direction, trapping enemies it hits. At the end of its path, trapped enemies are concentrated and suspended in an aquatic prison, causing damage dealt to one of them to be spread to the others. The ability can be reactivated to stop the wave early and teleport Hydroid to its end location.
  • Augment - Tidal Impunity: Hydroid and allies hit by the wave are healed, cleansed of status effects and rendered immune to them for a duration
• 3 - Undertow: Hydroid summons a pool of water that drags nearby enemies into it and partially sinks them, disarming them and dealing scaling Impact damage to them over time, increasing the more enemies are in the pool. Holding the ability teleports Hydroid inside the pool, rendering him invisible and immune to damage and status, breaking once he emerges from the pool with a movement input.
  • Augment - Dead Man's Chest: The pool has a chance to spawn ammo, health, and Energy drops every time an enemy dies inside it.
• 4 - Tentacle Swarm: Hydroid summons a creature from the deep that pulls enemies across a wide distance to it, slamming down against enemies in its immediate vicinity to deal Impact damage and stun them, opening them to finishers.
  • Augment - Tentacle Horror: The tentacles emerge directly from Hydroid himself, pulling enemies in line of sight to his location and slamming enemies near him for the duration. 

TL;DR for the rework: amp up Hydroid's current damage, CC and mobility so that he can become a frame specialized at setting enemies up for kills on the fly, with room for team utility and additional personal survivability.

[Hypernaut1]

he ain't that bad.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Hydroid us an unfortunate situation. His abilities function but are weak, random, or boring to use in a protracted fashion.

 

He needs a rework to be fun more than a rework to be useful.

[ScytodiDaedalus]

Bar comparisons to other Warframes and the current most effective approach to the game(Damage over CC).

Hydroid is actually ok, but in no way or form perfect. It baffles me how the first thing people ask for is a full rework to his entire abilities just because a few are clearly underperforming and can't see how on Earth they could be improved.

Anyhow:

On 2020-09-16 at 12:26 PM, TheGodofWiFi said:

My argument is that Hydroid is bad because;

• Tempest Barrage has its overall effectiveness tied to RNG/the environment and the enemy AI, which is completely awful for obvious reasons. It's projectiles also come in at an odd angle, which means they get caught on the environment a lot of the time, which further reduces the overall effectiveness of the ability and the projectiles do not hit the enemies head on, but rather the general area around them and they do rubbish damage. It also has a charge mechanic attached to it, which is a negative for any frame in this game where every second counts, but for Hydroid in particular its an absolute death sentence.
• Tidal Surge is Excalibur's old Slash Dash in everything but name and doesn't provide any real lasting benefits whatsoever.
• Undertow is awful as it removes your weapons, removes your ability to run/parkour and reduces your speed to that of a snails pace. It also has absolutely pathetic scaling damage and you will not be killing anything remotely fast at all. And unfortunately it's Hydroid's only real form of long term survivability, which makes it even worse.
• Tentacle Swarm shares the same issues as Barrage; it's overall effectiveness is mechanically tied to RNG/the environment and enemy AI. The tentacles spawn in completely random places, such as under rocks, up on high walls, in corners, on pillars etc etc. Basically places which the enemies will never go. From that point on you basically have to hope that the enemy walks into the absolutely pitiful grab range of the tentacles as well the fact that the tentacle swipes at the right time to pick up said enemy. More RNG on top of your RNG. The tentacle animation is incredibly slow and limited, the size of the tentacles mean's they won't be hitting anything that's more than three metres away from them which is rubbish in this game, their animations also make particularly annoying when you're trying to kill enemies who understandably are not dying from the poor damage the tentacles do, so you're forced to use a specific type of weapon (AOE) in order to kill them. Oh and it also has a charge mechanic attached to it as well.
• His passive is 100% laughable. The tentacles are still terrible even when there is a whole group of them, but one is completely pathetic.

1. Tempest Barrage:
   
   -I disagree that it is a bad ability, it is actually a really good one, 90% of the time enemies don't ever get to stand up, however it's damage is negligible.
   -How the projectiles actually behave is slightly different than you may think,  there's no such thing as projectiles, it's just an animation and it's localized random explosions, however they tend to choose the upper areas of object so they may cause some odd behaviour (I'm not 100% sure, but last time I casted Tempest Barrage on a Grinneer Dropship, no projectiles overshot, missed or fell downwards on the plains, also when the ship left, explosions ceased immediately)
   -The biggest negative is the ragdolling it current gives thanks to the Status Effect update which causes it to ocassionally fling enemies around.
   -Agree that Charge time is just too long, not a death sentence but it's simply too long, it could be simply 1 to 1.5 seconds. Additionally the ability has a form of "innate" cooldown that prevents it from being spammed.
    
2. Tidal Surge:
   
   -As mentioned, no lasting benefits, if anyone wants to shove enemies away you might aswell melee slam them, if you want to move just roll twice and you'd have more control of the movement of that, without an energy cost.
    
3. Undertow:
   
   -Your current take on this are just facts, it is a bad ability, it was bad back then it is bad now.
    
4. Tentacle Swarm:
   
   -Hydroid's 2nd useful ability and still underperforming.
   -Tentacles summoned are static and enemies passing by the "kraken" area will very often go through unscathed, often causing the player to constantly recast and spam the ability.
   -Charge mechanics also terrible.
    
5. Passive:
   
   -On this one I can hardly even argue, it is indeed mostly if not completely useless, but the most of the Warframes also possess similarly "helpful" passives, it is beyond me how one could add a passive worthwhile, theme-wise and function-wise to Hydroid

Now, on how to improve the currently existing abilities... well see below

Spoiler

1. Tempest Barrage:
   
   -Fix and remove further ragdolling on Impact proc'd enemies.
   -Remove or greatly reduce charge time, to up to 1s.
   -Remove the innate cooldown.
   -Improve base duration by 2s. (5s is actually incredibly low, I believe it could be increased even further but I'm not sure)
    
2. Tidal Surge: Actually rework this ability, not rocket science tho.
   
   -Remove it's mobility functionality: Not cause Hydroid to move along with it.
   -Make Hydroid cast a Wave that increases in height and width the more it travels, dragging enemies along.
   -Optionally for Charge mechanics, charging for up to 1s has the wave travel further.
    
3. Undertow: Also rework this ability, turn it into an actually useful mobility ability.
   
   -Remove the damage and enemy drowning functionality.
   -Remove the additional energy cost per 0.2m moved.
   -Allow Hydroid to move at 1.5x of his sprint speed.
   -Cause enemies Hydroid passes by to be knocked down/impact proc'd (No ragdoll).
   -Change cast times to 0.5s  when entering Undertow and upon exiting it.
    
4. Pilfering Swarm: Fix it's actual reliability.
   
   -Fix Charge mechanic to max charge of 1s
   -Cause tentacles that have been hit by any player source of damage, melee, gunfire, any damage dealing ability or Tempest Barrage to constrict enemies close to the ground.
   -Allow tentacles that haven't grabbed an enemy for 2 or 3 seconds to sink, allowing the kraken to re-emerge them at a new enemy position if they wander in the AoE.

Disregarding damage values, I think these changes can bring Hydroid to a much more flexible and literally fluid state of gameplay. Allowing Hydroid to make use of his 4 abilities rather than just 2 at most.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

These are not opinions.

But they are not objective either.

They are comparative, you've said so yourself. Every one of your statements is qualified by comparison to something else instead of the actual value of that ability and what it actually does achieve.

Just because that's commonly used to judge performance does not mean it's objective or even the correct method.

And once again I'll say this: you're fighting something that doesn't need to be fought.

I don't need you to keep pushing your statements on me and expecting that to somehow, magically change my opinions on the matter.  It won't. I've made my assessment and it's not going to be changed unless Hydroid is changed. You're insisting that your views are the ones that matter here. You literally are trying to pick a fight over this and you don't need to. Why are you even persisting with this? It doesn't matter.

Let it go.