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DE, can Hydroid please get a rework.


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am i the only one that loves undertow? i love drowning  huge mobs of enemies and seeing them expire one by one. If i get bored, i simply hop out of it and melee all the grounded enemies. Its a cool offensive and defensive ability. It doesnt make sense to compare it to other abilities that might be "better" because thats not the point. Its different and unique. Somtimes i just want to turn into a puddle and drown fools. Its his "thing"

Edited by Hypernaut1
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I haven't had the time nor the patience to invest into the Helminth, and even I know that Warframes like Hydroid, Zephyr, Chroma & others deserve legitimate reworks. While we can prioritize certain Warframes above others in terms of demand, we cannot argue that any of them are not deserving of changes at all. With the recent devstream's tone-deaf mentality, players should cooperate with one another to reinforce the importance of reworks so that DE knows what they must do, and the Helminth system will never remove the necessity of reworks from this game.

The touted synergy that Hydroid obtained in his last rework all focused around Undertow, allowing you to use the rest of his abilities while in puddle form. Undertow only offers meager damage at the cost of energy, that energy consumption increases as more enemies are submerged, it also lacks any real mobility. Tidal Surge offers him that mobility, but lacks any real control, only going in a straight line. Tempest Barrage & Tentacle Swarm both require time to charge in order to be effective, but Tentacle Swarm surpasses Tempest Barrage in both form & function. And his passive is absolutely horrendous, offering nothing of real value. Ironically enough, he can't even submerge himself in watery substances without requiring an Archwing, which completely goes against the design of an aquatic Warframe. It puzzles me to this day why he couldn't traverse the lakes, rivers & aquatic caverns of planets like Earth, Venus & Uranus freely. Gauss can run on water, why can't Hydroid swim in it?

He remains unplayed by the majority for a reason, so how exactly do we rectify this issue?

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Totally agree with op just like in every other posts where this've been discussed deeply, unfortunally. I also thought I could fix hydroid using Helminth but nah...

Too bad we don't have a Hydroid Youtuber like Trainman R. to ask for rework every time. lol

Edited by Sahiratu
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On 2020-09-15 at 8:43 AM, chaotea said:

Hydroids not that bad. Hes not top teir, but lots of frames arnt.

You could just use a different frame.

LOL "You could just use a different frame" that's new, are you even trying to using this as an argument to not ask for a rework?

Same could be said about every single one of the frames that got a rework.

Edit: Nvm, I find another post with actual arguments and a 2018 chart to compare to 2020 (for some reason?) ignoring the fact the he WAS one of the best options for farming and it's not like this anymore.

Edited by Sahiratu
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19 hours ago, Hypernaut1 said:

am i the only one that loves undertow? i love drowning  huge mobs of enemies and seeing them expire one by one. If i get bored, i simply hop out of it and melee all the grounded enemies. Its a cool offensive and defensive ability. It doesnt make sense to compare it to other abilities that might be "better" because thats not the point. Its different and unique. Somtimes i just want to turn into a puddle and drown fools. Its his "thing"

You are NOT alone my good man, as I am too a "closet" Undertow lover!  Nothing is more satisfying than pulling enemies into my puddle of doom! I can't agree more with you, as its his signature ability and as such should not be removed or altered! ( unless DE wants to add more range!)  I find the puddle a nice change of pace in a game that has become a battle of who can kill the most and the fastest!  For the folks that keep whining about his Tentacles make it hard to get headshots, blah blah blah... Wow people still use a gun in a game where Melee is the Beastmaster?? I will admit that Hydroid's water balloons being changed or removed will see no protest from me, but the rest of his kit is hardly in need of a complete rework, at best a slight nudge or tweak to enhance the ability.  Just because people don't use Hydroid in missions, doesn't mean he's horrible, it just means either you don't know how to use him or you don't like his unique talents.  I would rather have Hydroid in my squad, than a boring aimbot Mesa or a narcissistic "look at me board wipe" Saryn!  That's the glory of Warframe, there's a Warframe to fit everyone's play style!

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16 hours ago, (XB1)sinamanthediva said:

You are NOT alone my good man, as I am too a "closet" Undertow lover!  Nothing is more satisfying than pulling enemies into my puddle of doom! I can't agree more with you, as its his signature ability and as such should not be removed or altered! ( unless DE wants to add more range!)  I find the puddle a nice change of pace in a game that has become a battle of who can kill the most and the fastest!  For the folks that keep whining about his Tentacles make it hard to get headshots, blah blah blah... Wow people still use a gun in a game where Melee is the Beastmaster?? I will admit that Hydroid's water balloons being changed or removed will see no protest from me, but the rest of his kit is hardly in need of a complete rework, at best a slight nudge or tweak to enhance the ability.  Just because people don't use Hydroid in missions, doesn't mean he's horrible, it just means either you don't know how to use him or you don't like his unique talents.  I would rather have Hydroid in my squad, than a boring aimbot Mesa or a narcissistic "look at me board wipe" Saryn!  That's the glory of Warframe, there's a Warframe to fit everyone's play style!

for all this talk about how horrible he is, hes an EXCELLENT simulacrum warrior. I can spawn 20 max level Nox, suck them into undertow, activate tentacle swarm, activate corroding barrage, leave undertow and melee all 20 CC'd Nox as they get their armor stripped.  If one escapes, i can return to undertow to CC it. 

i dont know, he's just not that bad to me. 

Edited by Hypernaut1
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On 2020-09-24 at 9:52 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Every one of your statements is qualified by comparison to something else instead of the actual value of that ability and what it actually does achieve.

So you basically want me to review Hydroid in a vacuum separated from everything else in the game? That's not how things work though. You can't just look at Hydroid as if he was the only frame in the game, as by default that would make him good since he is literally not being compared to anything else.

That's like saying someone is a good runner/athlete for winning a race, despite the fact they only won because no one else even entered.

On 2020-09-24 at 9:52 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Just because that's commonly used to judge performance does not mean it's objective or even the correct method.

How is it not the correct method? Comparing somethings performance against something elses, is how a lot of things are judged not just in video games but the real world as well. You can't just review things individually in a vacuum and pretend like other things do not exist as that isn't logical and it also doesn't lead to any sort of worthwhile progress, since by default the thing you're reviewing is okay due to the fact you're pretending like its the only thing in existence.

I think you're confusing the definitions of objective and comparative honestly.

On 2020-09-24 at 9:52 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

You're insisting that your views are the ones that matter here.

I'm putting forward facts about Hydroid's abilities and how frames like Zephyr are above him simply due to the fact that have at least one useful ability and/or do not have their effectiveness tied to RNG, which is true.

Your argument is that Zephyr and Hydroid are on the same level, which factually isn't true simply due to the fact that not her or anyone other frame shares the same reliance on RNG that Hydroid does. You can have an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's not wrong.

On 2020-09-24 at 9:52 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

Why are you even persisting with this? It doesn't matter.

It matters to a Hydroid enthusiast, someone who actually wants to see this frame get the attention it really needs. DE have just ignored every single thread over the last seven years and have never once even spoken about a rework for Hydroid. Its really, really frustrating.

Edited by TheGodofWiFi
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6 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Your argument is that Zephyr and Hydroid are on the same level

No, my assessment. I'm not arguing with you. You're trying to argue with me.

My assessment is that, and I will say this carefully because you seem not to get it; just because Hydroid is worse than some other frames in the game, does not make him an objectively bad frame.

I compared him to Zephyr because you can easily do so. While the play style is different, Hydroid does have an objectively useful ability, the same as Zephyr does. His other abilities are unreliable, need modding specifically for them, and there are better versions of them in the game. Just like Zephyr.

These are incredibly non-specific terms, and I stand by them because the inherent leeway I built myself with the wording allows them to be technically correct no matter what arguments you bring in for the specifics.

Beyond that the sheer inanity of saying a frame is bad at the game when every one of the abilities actually functions and does allow the player to handle the enemies up to quite a high level if need be, is just irritating to me. You're using that word over and over and you're not basing it on facts, just on comparison to things that are similar.

A frame is bad when they cannot be used to play the game. When their abilities are actively counter-intuitive, non-functional or have logical flaws in their execution. Not when another frame is better than them at a given task.

That is why comparative statements don't work in Warframe, because instead of using the objective landmarks of whether the game is actually playable using the character, whether goals can be achieved and specific tasks can be done, you are simply moving the goal every time you compare him to a different frame.

I have absolutely no confusion between Objective and Comparative and how they should be employed to judge the state of a Warframe. An objective assessment of a Warframe is based on how they perform at being a player character in this game. A comparative assessment is when you say whether another frame is better at a given task or not. A ranking is where comparative natures need to be brought in. For reworks, buffs and nerfs, an objective assessment needs to be taken.

Your insistence in saying that I'm wrong has led you down this weird push to argue the toss when you literally cannot, since I at no point made anything more than a basic generalisation between the frames.

And AGAIN; why are you even pushing this?

What bug crawled under your backside at the idea that, in broad and sweeping terms, with no specifics mentioned, I put Zephyr on par with Hydroid in terms of effect in this game?

As I said. Let it go. You are not winning an argument here. There is no argument.

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11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

A frame is bad when they cannot be used to play the game.

Wow, you're the second person to use this incredibly ridiculous technicality logic. This is not how we define bad things in Warframe, as no frame or weapon cannot outright stop you from playing the game. I remember posting a Zephyr rework thread a while ago and you commented on it saying she was in a bad place and needed tweaking. So you're not really being genuine here.

A frame is considered bad when they do a very poor job when compared to another frame, because what is the point of playing a frame that simply is inferior to others? It's shooting yourself in the foot for no reason. By your logic, nothing in this game is bad because you can technically get through the game with it. So all those well-founded criticisms of frames Grendel and weapons like the Kraken are entirely irrelevant as you can still get through the game with them.

No, that's not how this works. I can't believe someone else is trying to push this technicality logic again. It's a really, really weak argument.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

While the play style is different, Hydroid does have an objectively useful ability, the same as Zephyr does.

See here you go again, just looking at what the frame can do, not how they do it. Undertow cannot be put on the same level as Turbulence, as its execution is 100% awful. Undertow takes away all of your guns/melee, Turbulence does not. Undertow takes away most of your movement and forces you to move at a snails pace, Turbulence does not. Undertow forces you to stay grounded, Turbulence does not.

It's not useful.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

Beyond that the sheer inanity of saying a frame is bad at the game when every one of the abilities actually functions and does allow the player to handle the enemies up to quite a high level if need be, is just irritating to me.

Half his abilities do not function. That is the point. They are awfully implemented and do not do a good job because they rely on RNG.

The other half may function, but they provide no lasting value whatsoever.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

That is why comparative statements don't work in Warframe, because instead of using the objective landmarks of whether the game is actually playable using the character, whether goals can be achieved and specific tasks can be done, you are simply moving the goal every time you compare him to a different frame.

Like I said; you cannot use the flawed technicality logic of whether or not you can actually play the game as that means that basically nothing is bad since you can "technically" get through the game using any frame/weapon with the right mod set-up.

Comparative statements have always been used in Warframe because that is how things are judged and have caused many good changes. It is how things get changed and it does work, very well in fact. It works far more so than the absolutely ridiculous logic of "well if you can objectively play the game with it, then it doesn't need changing". That does not and never has worked.

If DE went with that logic, then there would have been no reworks to anything at all. We have never used this vacuum logic. Yes we do compare Hydroid to other frames, because that is how progress is made. Pointing out how a frame does Hydroid's job better, highlights that he needs improvement.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

You're using that word over and over and you're not basing it on facts, just on comparison to things that are similar.

Yea those are called facts mate. Its a fact that Hydroid does not do a good job when compared to others. If he was the only frame in the game, then by default he would alright since he'd literally be the only choice you have, but again that is not real-world logic, because the human race does not review things individually in a vacuum.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

An objective assessment of a Warframe is based on how they perform at being a player character in this game.

That is not the definition of objective at all. Nowhere in the Oxford Dictionary is Objective defined as not being comparative. It's defined as not being influenced by personal feelings in considering facts. Me pointing out that Hydroid is inferior to others, is objective as its a simple fact.

You have completely the wrong idea of what that means.

11 hours ago, Birdframe_Prime said:

For reworks, buffs and nerfs, an objective assessment needs to be taken.

100% incorrect. Leaving aside the fact you have totally confused the definition of the word objective, reworks have never once been based on how well the frame performs on its own. DE have never reviewed a frame in a vacuum, as not only is that illogical, since by default it would be alright since you're not comparing to anything else, but they also need to make sure they do not basically do the same ability twice.

Frame reworks have been based off of poor performance when compared to others.

Your viewpoint on what defines a bad Warframe/weapon is incredibly illogical, as it basically says that as long as you can play the game, it's alright.

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6 hours ago, Luciole77 said:

hydroid is incredible with undertow...he is perfect for interception camping...damage enemies without receiveing damage.

If you enjoy it, go for it.  It's goofy and fun for a while, but the process is really, really slow compared to other frames' methods for killing.  And yeah, other frames can kill very quickly while being virtually invincible too.

 

I think that gets to the biggest problem with Hydroid.  He doesn't stand out because other frames can do what he does in better (faster, stronger, more efficient) ways.  He's dated and could use changes.

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vor 49 Minuten schrieb Luciole77:

ash is uselles bro....ivara much better🤣

Ash compared to Ivara => sadly yes. Ash compared to Hydroid=> nope.

Btw. In a mission which doesn't require killing isn't ever frame useless compared to Vauban? Some frames can lock a whole room while the king prevents the enemies to even come in the near of this room.

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2 hours ago, ES-Flinter said:

Ash compared to Ivara => sadly yes. Ash compared to Hydroid=> nope.

Btw. In a mission which doesn't require killing isn't ever frame useless compared to Vauban? Some frames can lock a whole room while the king prevents the enemies to even come in the near of this room.

Ash might be quicker at killing the enemies but that doesn't mean its easier or less of a chore.  In your OPINION you might prefer to use Ash over Hydroid but that doesn't make it better if I have to mash buttons to get the job done verses Activate my puddle of doom and go make some microwave popcorn.  Like I keep saying its all a matter of Play-style that makes people choose one Warframe over another.  So go be one of 3 people that choose to use Ash in an Interception, and I'll use what I think, is a excellent Warframe choice for Interception missions and we can both be Happy Warframe players. Have a pleasant tomorrow!

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23 hours ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

So you're not really being genuine here.

Wait, so my literal statement that both frames need work is somehow me not being genuine?

On 2020-09-27 at 10:02 PM, Birdframe_Prime said:

I compared him to Zephyr because you can easily do so. While the play style is different, Hydroid does have an objectively useful ability, the same as Zephyr does. His other abilities are unreliable, need modding specifically for them, and there are better versions of them in the game. Just like Zephyr.

What are you even on about?

You're still pushing and fighting this because I'm using 'incredibly technical' language?

Okay. Baby words for the baby reader:

Frame not good as other frame. Frame not bad on its own. Frame good at some things. Frame not good at others. Frame not bad, just 'not as good'. Frame need rework. Still does not mean that frame bad.

That's why, you blithering neanderthal, I say that the frame has a 'C' ranking. A passing grade, but only if your desire is to pass, rather than excel.

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17 hours ago, sunderthefirmament said:

I think that gets to the biggest problem with Hydroid.  He doesn't stand out because other frames can do what he does in better (faster, stronger, more efficient) ways. 

This 

He just needs tweaks for how fast pace the game is now, not a new identity.

My fixes:
-Undertow should kill faster or his 1 should do crazy damage to them in it for good synergy.
-Tidal surge needs to be control-able like cloud walker (just cant fly though) to give more mobility
-Tidal surge energy reduced while in puddle form like Revenant's Reave while using Danse.
-better animations on under tow and his kraken to make him feel more engaging and less Alex mac with a sinking monster head. 

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10 hours ago, Kaiune said:

This 

He just needs tweaks for how fast pace the game is now, not a new identity.

My fixes:
-Undertow should kill faster or his 1 should do crazy damage to them in it for good synergy.
-Tidal surge needs to be control-able like cloud walker (just cant fly though) to give more mobility
-Tidal surge energy reduced while in puddle form like Revenant's Reave while using Danse.
-better animations on under tow and his kraken to make him feel more engaging and less Alex mac with a sinking monster head. 

I would rather see his tentacles completely removed and replaced.  Leave that crap to the infested, like that new set mod bonus.  Give Hydroid something that captures the feel of water better than some twitchy tentacles with mediocre coverage and pathetic damage.

 

I like your suggestion for Tidal Surge, though.  But the puddle needs to go, too.  Something that bland and boring just doesn't have a place in this game.

 

And not to get too off topic, but the second pass on Xaku seems completely inappropriate when we have frames like Hydroid who need attention.

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Speaking frankly, Hydroid always felt like a weirdly low-effort design to me.

I get that at the time of his release, virtually every frame had its own "gimmick" -- Zephyr could fly, Mirage was affected by brightness, Limbo had his Rift, etc -- but most of them actually had a couple extremely practical abilities (Turbulence, Cataclysm, most of Mirage's kit), or just required a touch-up here and there to salvage (the Rift mechanic, Sleight of Hand, Oberon in general). Most of these initial "gimmicks" were a push to give them a different playstyle or practical use to a team... while Hydroid was just a series of fire-and-forget skills and the same dash attack shared by 3 other frames before him.

It almost made him feel like an obligatory frame, churned out just for the sake of having a Water-elemental follow the Wind-elemental.

Now, I admit this feedback is harsh, and I fully understand that for the expectations Scott had for his design, he had a pretty hard job. Hydroid wasn't just intended to be a Water-elemental, but a Pirate, a "class" that doesn't really have a neat archetype to follow or niche in games. Nekros had dozens of Necromancer interpretations to draw from, Valkyr had a wide variety of Berserkers, Ash was made to be the quintessential Ninjutsu practitioner; for any one of those themes, you could easily craft 2-3 abilities just off the top of your head, and maybe struggle with the final polish. However, "Pirate" is usually just flavor text on a character who's otherwise good at swordplay (a skillset ostensibly shared by literally every frame), unless the game revolves around naval battles and ship-to-ship combat; before Hydroid was introduced, anyone probably would have struggled to think of one iconic skill for a Pirate to have. So, some improvisation had to be done on Hydroid's behalf. I applaud that his kit shot high for originality, and ended up with two distinctly Pirate-themed skills, and one more that's uniquely Hydroid.

The problem is, Hydroid's practicality has always been pretty limited by comparison to other frames. Much like Accelerant-era Ember, his entire kit is devoted to several means of Crowd Control -- but even at the time of his release, if you wanted a CC-oriented frame in the party, you had options like Nova, Vauban, Frost or Nyx who could do so with significantly greater ease and effectiveness, without reliance on "random" skills like Tempest Barrage's explosions of Tentacle Swarm's spawns, and with several other abilities providing extra utility to their kits. Today it would be easier to count the number of frames without some lockdown tools in their kit... and barring some QoL adjustments, very little of the meat of Hydroid's kit has changed since introduction.

So this leaves Hydroid with a few major issues:

  • In any scenario where you might want to bring him, there is a superior alternative. Why should I want to bring him when there are a half-dozen other frames that can do the same job with one button, and have three more abilities to shake it up? 
    • It used to be that players would point to his augments as the reasons to bring him anywhere, which always meant you needed add-ons to find him useful... but now, Corrosive Barrage fell off with the changes to Corrosive procs, and several frames like Ember or Xaku are more effective at quickly peeling armor. Even his Pilfering Swarm pales next to Khora's Pilfering Strangledome, and the changes to loot ability stacking mean you only need one of the pair on a team.
  • Since all of his skills are meant for the same task, most of them compete with each other rather than having overt synergy with each other.
    • For instance, his ultimate has virtually no benefits with the rest of his kit, since the tentacles can't hit inside of Undertow, don't draw fire from Tempest Barrage, and don't interact at all with his Tidal Surge.
  • Despite all of his abilities dealing damage, even now only one of them has any sort of damage scaling useful against higher-level enemies... and it's also the only one that provides Hydroid with some benefit other than CC and has any interaction with other elements of his kit: Undertow. Unfortunately this is also the tool that ties area-defense to your location, essentially restricting you to AFKing on the objective in Defense-oriented missions, and being severely limited in any mission that demands mobility.

The really frustrating thing is, since he doesn't do anything spectacularly (baseline) to build off of and the Pirate archetype is so niche, it's extremely difficult to suggest how his kit could be improved, because we don't really know what his payoff should be or what he's meant to build up to. Scott has never once clarified what his role on his team is meant to be, and it's extremely difficult to divine from his kit. 

I think, much like Ember, he could do with a complete restructuring to his kit, from the ground up. Something to make more than one of his abilities stand out from the rest.

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I would improve the following:

First of all: Remove cast time from skills, or quadruple cast speed (natural talent is practically mandatory today)

a new passive ability or change the percentage to 100% for the tentacles

Tempest Barrage: Due to the new status effect system, the skill has lost efficiency of CC, so I would improve it. I would also change the Aug Mod to completely remove the enemy's armor (several warframes do this easily, I don't see why Hydroid can't do it too)

Tidal Surge: I wouldn't change anything, just put a system to disable the wave immediately, using the ability again (without having to use the third ability for that, and losing energy)

Undertow: It wouldn't change much either, it would just remove the cost of energy to pull enemies into the puddle. Also make sure that the enemies do not leave the puddle when walking in this mode.

Tentacle Swarm: This one would just put some use in the kraken (not to be just aesthetic). It could be something like this ... Applying fear to enemies that are released from the tentacle through the Kraken (as the friend said in the previous post) or the tentacle taking the enemies to the Kraken and it devours it (using some type of system to select what this enemy would be and put some cooldown to not be OP)

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1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

Now, I admit this feedback is harsh, and I fully understand that for the expectations Scott had for his design, he had a pretty hard job. Hydroid wasn't just intended to be a Water-elemental, but a Pirate, a "class" that doesn't really have a neat archetype to follow or niche in games. Nekros had dozens of Necromancer interpretations to draw from, Valkyr had a wide variety of Berserkers, Ash was made to be the quintessential Ninjutsu practitioner; for any one of those themes, you could easily craft 2-3 abilities just off the top of your head, and maybe struggle with the final polish. However, "Pirate" is usually just flavor text on a character who's otherwise good at swordplay (a skillset 

I would give them no quarter. They choose the pirate theme themselves. Nobody forced them to pick it , this was not a community context and they had to do the winning theme. They could have made water siren or water deep sea creatures. Both are way easyer to do because they have more thematic wiggle room.

This does speak to larger issue of DE greenlighing projects with the simple question of Would not be cool If ? 

They don't even ask themselves the how to do it or if it is even possible. 

Case in point Khorra , it took the community to notice the a slash , impact and piercing damage frame might as well be slash frame because the other damage types sucks ass. How this frame wasn't shotdown before it was revealed on a live stream. 

Second case revenant, he was revealed and a good part of the dev team was just as confused as the audience about what is this. 

A minor case is the alchemists frame , it's already modeled before we even get a basic description on what it does. A literally did a "alchemists frame " myself and could describe it as modular skill frame ( some skill use a modular system of mixing itens to get an effect ) and people would know tje idea. I ended up changing the theme to witch because it allowed me to get away with the same modular modular skill but have more room for diferent stuff. If you want to check it out. Raven

Edited by keikogi
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I like Hydroid so much but his sin is being an original generation warframe in a sea of parkouring, melee slamming, flying wunderkinds. His kit is for a different game. I like thinking up different warframe setups so this is one I thought up for Hydroid.

Passive - enemies affected by abilities have a small chance to drop extra loot. He's a pirate, mugging is what he does.

1 - changed. His Kraken and liquid warrior theme should resonate throughout this entire kit so for his 1 it should change to Tentacles. A number of liquid appendages directed by Hydroid spring to life lifting and constricting enemies. Think this scene from Bioshock 3.

468px-Undertow.png

Tap to grab. Tap to fling away. Hold to have the appendages harden into liquid harpoons piercing and impaling enemies where they hit.

2 - Tidal surge is too unwieldly as a mobility tool and too energy hungry for what it does, if it doesn't get caught in something. Combine it with Undertow as the ability Liquid State. Tap to assume the Undertow form with heightened ground based mobility (like the treatment Cloudwalker got), bullet jump to initiate the Tidal Surge at no cost. Only one enemy can be drowned in Hydroid's pool but this is performed as a finisher and on killing that enemy Hydroid can assume that enemy's shape as a buff called Liquid Disguise. Hydroid's power is water and water can take any shape it likes, as a pirate and rogue Hydroid would be suited for stealth elements that take advantage of his chosen element giving him a form of 'invisibility' no other frame has. As a reference T2 from Terminator being able to change shape and the appearance of others.

3 - Undertow takes a long time to kill and it's not obvious to teammates that they can shoot the puddle, or that there's even anything in the puddle to shoot. As a revision that keeps to Hydroid's style as a area denier Hydroid has the ability Watery Grave. Hydroid creates a puddle separate to himself on the ground that waits as a trap. The moment an enemy walks on it activates trapping that enemy in a water sphere where they drown like how Undertow works now. In the sphere they are visible to allies and can be shot. Synergizes with Tentacles in that casting it on the sphere causes liquid organs to erupt from the sphere grabbing and trapping enemies in range. An augment for the ability is Acidic Grave whereas trapped enemies take continuous corrosive procs like how Corroding Barrage works now. 

4 - Hydroid's ultimate is inspired by the insectoid k-drive on Deimos. Hydroid rides his Kraken like a k-drive zooming through the area with full access to weapons. Abilities change effect while on the kraken. Tentacles is no longer liquid but the arms of the kraken itself. Hydroid gets a bonus to the amount of enemies he can grab and the Kraken will automatically reposition their bodies so they block enemy fire on hydroid. Liquid State turns into a liberally distanced teleport, Hydroid and the Kraken dive into the ground and remerge at a point on the screen. The spheres of Watery Grave become mobile and tethered to the kraken so you can carry drowning enemies with you, diving with Liquid State delivers hp based damage and accelerates the drowning of everyone you have trapped with Watery Grave.

That's my sexy Hydroid rework. One day he'll receive what he deserves.

 

Edited by (XB1)SirMilkfiend
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I say the same thing about Loki, and yet I keep getting told that Switch Teleport is a good ability because you can swap a single heavy out of a crowd of enemies and Decoy is fine as long as you put it in very specific places that the enemies can't hi- and all the enemies in the room are dead before I finished typing this out.

But I digress...

Hydroid's problem is that his kit lacks any consistency, random hits for his 1, ridiculous ragdolling on his 2, painfully slow killing on his 3 and his 4 is just his 1 but with tentacles.

He's mostly in a similar position to Vauban before his changes, everything on paper sounds like it might work, but in execution it is comically clunky and doesn't mesh well together, and as a result he's not even good at whatever his job is supposed to be, similar to how Vauban was 90% Bastille and 10% Vortex with a big fat lol for the rest of his kit.

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