Hating the Idea of the Helminth-System...am i alone with this?

[DreisterDino]

Update May 2021: since this topic got pulled from the depths of the forum for some reason, i made a small update 😉

Spoiler

  

Oh, someone necro'd my topic, i wondered why i get forum-rep again although i didnt post anything 😄

Then let me add a quick recap on my thoughts presented back then.

 

Overall, after using the system i have to admit it is not as bad as i thought it would be.

With that being said, i still wouldnt change any of the points i made, they are still true for me although i wouldn't phrase them that harsh.

 

Zitat

1. Warframe's losing their identity

Still true imo, and still the most important factor for me, even if Warframe only lose 25% of their identity, i dont like it too much.

Seeing so many Frames with Larva for example did hurt Nidus more then the Frames which subsumed the ability probably, he is simply not as unique anymore.

This system made it a lot less relevant which Frame you pick for which mission, since each Frame can do everything now basically. Some might like this, some dont.

 

My personal work-around for this is that i only subsume Abilities if i think they still fit the theme of the Frame.

For example, i never put Valkyrs Warcry on a Male Warframe because its just silly to see someone like Rhino scream like Valkyr 😄

And while Larva might be good on more or less each Frame, i have only added it to Oberon i think because i think it works with his theme.

 

Zitat

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Since Warframe is so easy, its not a big deal.

Still, an indicator on which Frames have subsumed abilities would be useful.

 

Zitat

3. Balancing Hell

Again, not too much of a big deal since they have chosen to just nerf certain abilities for the recieving frames.

So, when you only look at the abilities, its not that big of a balancing nightmare.

On the other hand, if you look at the game as a whole, i still think there is an huge impact and it made the game a lot more easy again (powercreep) because the choice of your frame is less relevant now. Each frame can become more tanky now, each frame can have some CC and so on. Before the Helminth system, there was always just a little choice to be made like "do i want to be really tanky but dont have the option to CC?"...now you simply can have both.

 

Zitat

4. You can not ignore this system

I think most of you kinda missunderstood me there. the important part was: "you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others."

Meaning, i public groups you will always encounter this system, no matter which part of the game you are playing.

Again, not that big of a deal as i thought because Warframe is so overloaded with effects and everything that you dont notice a whole lot of what your mates are doing,

but still this is true for me.

While i can chose to not put a female Warcry on a bulky male Frame, i did encounter this in public matches.

This might not be important for you, but for me immersion is important in a game.

 

Zitat

1. More room for build diversity/experiments /// 2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

This proved to be a thing, and i did have some fun experimenting.

But, i think the Helminth system has shown that there are still way to many trash abilities and that this system is no replacement for proper reworks.

We only subsume the same few abilities onto each frame, the majority of possible subsumes are simply too bad to ever get used.

 

So, there is room for experiments and you can get rid of trash abilities,

but it kinda boils down to "does Larva/Warcry/or one of the other few worthwhile abilities work on this frame?"

 

After seeing the list of abilties which can be transfered i am sure i will really dislike the system,

and not just that, i have the feeling it might make the overall Warframe experience less enjoyable for me.

 

Many people are hyped about transfering Abilities from one frame to another, and i can totally understand why thats the case.

You might expect me to rant about how this system will completly break the bits of balance left in the game, but thats not even what i dislike about this system.

(although i am sure this will be crazy overpowered, but i dont consider that too much of a problem since we are overpowered already, so not much is changing regarding that). Let me quickly list what are the biggest negative aspects of this system for me.

 

Cons:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

 

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Before this system, you could just have a quick look on the composition of your squad, and you knew immediately what each frame is capable of.

With this system, you simply cannot tell anymore, each Frame will be able to do more or less everything.

At the same time, you might expect a certain frame to use an ability - but that player might have swapped it out and cannot do that anymore.

 

3. Balancing Hell

I am not talking about the overall Balance of the game, but the balancing of certain abilities.

Now that each frame will be able to use certain abilities, i am 100% sure that broken Combos will be the result.

But what to do then? Nerf the Ability which can be transfered (and maybe destroy the Origin Warframe with that)? Nerf the Ability only for recieving Frames? Ignore it?

I really wonder what will happen, because no matter which route you take, it will create more problems probably.

Also, whenever DE creates a new frame, they basically have to take all frames into consideration when designing the abilities.

 

4. You can not ignore this system

If you dont like Liches, Railjack, Arbitrations, Orbs, Eidolons, Nightwave, Rivens or stuff like that, its relatively easy to just ignore it and do what you want to do.

It doesnt has much of an impact on me if others enjoy those parts of the game. I hate Orbs aswell for example, but i can simply forget about them.

But this system will be present everywhere in the game - you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others.

I know people will say "just play Solo", and yes, this might be the consequence for me...but i always liked playing with randoms, and often there are benefits for doing so.

 

Zitat

 

Edit: for clarification since it came up...yes, i personally can ignore it by not using the system.

And its not about how others are having fun or playing the game or stuff like that.

Its mainly tied to Point 1 (Warframe Identity) and the general Design approach of the game regarding, the Art Design, Lore etc

This will change drastically and thats what you cannot ignore. I am not hating on how others will potentially be playing the game!

 

 

 

To be fair, there are a few positive aspects, and i dont want to hide them, so i will list them aswell. But are those Pro's worth the Con's?

 

Pros:

1. More room for build diversity/experiments

There might be lots of fun combos and i understand that it might make certain frames more attractive to use.

At the same time, lots of different builds might be possible. Right now, on certain frames you always build for nothing but range for example, and that might change.

 

2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

There are abilities in the game which are completly useless and it might be fun to simply exchange them with something useful.

But wouldn't it be better to rework those obvious trash abilities instead of creating such a system?

 

 

 

In conclusion, i really doubt i will enjoy this system and it's implications although it has a few benefits of course.

For the first time in my Warframe History, i really "fear" the addition of a feature.

With everything else added in the past my mindset was "either i like it and play it, or i hate it, ignore it and move on".

But this time i feel this is not possible... Am i alone with this opinion? So far i have only seen Threads about what combos might be cool.

[(PSN)thowed]

No you're not alone.  Plenty have said these exact same things.  I for one think it's getting blown way out of proportion.  Most of the transferable abilities are trash and it's not gonna ruin the game to see a frame use a power that's not theirs.

[Yakhul]

1 minute ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

Happens in every game with a community this large. There will always be special snowflakes that will want you to not have fun because they also are not having fun.

[DreisterDino]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb (XB1)TyeGoo:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

Yeah man, and i am getting tired of people who are unable to read properly and take part in a normal discussion.

I really tried to make sure this is not a stupid rant, explain my point of view and even list the positive aspects i can see.

After all, this forum is for discussing opinions.

 

  

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Yakhul:

Happens in every game with a community this large. There will always be special snowflakes that will want you to not have fun because they also are not having fun.

"Special Snowflakes".

Come on, seriously, did you guys even read anything or just the headline to make a quick comment.

I even mentioned i can understand people who are hyped about this system and listed positive aspects.

 

So everyone who isnt hyped about this or has concerns is a special snowflake now who doesnt want others to have fun?

Well, thats also a way to have a "discussion" 😛

[Luciole77]

wait more time dude....maybe you can find a good combination.

The system is new and will be evolved...

[5H4DE]

5 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Yeah man, and i am getting tired of people who are unable to read properly and make a normal discussion.

I really tried to make sure this is not a stupid rant, explain my point of view and even list the positive aspects i can see.

After all, this forum is for discussing opinions.

Let's be honest, you couldn't give 2 hoots about your first 3 Cons, you only care because randoms in your groups will likely make use of the system while you avoid it.

When it actually matters(as in, premade groups for "endgame" runs) the only change will be "Bring a warframe with X ability" instead of "Bring Y Warframe for X ability".

The only thing this system does and we all agree on, is that it lets us get rid of abilities we deem useless and slap something more relevant in their place. Anything else is just nitpicking for the sake of complaining if you ask me.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

It's already been established Warframe has been divided. You're not the only one. Unfortunately I don't think you're gonna stop the inevitable lol.

[Syln]

il y a 7 minutes, DreisterDino a dit :

Yeah man, and i am getting tired of people who are unable to read properly and make a normal discussion.

I really tried to make sure this is not a stupid rant, explain my point of view and even list the positive aspects i can see.

After all, this forum is for discussing opinions.

 

  

"Special Snowflakes".

Come on, seriously, did you guys even read anything or just the headline to make a quick comment.

I even mentioned i can understand people who are hyped about this system and listed positive aspects.

Why read when you can blindly complain ? As for me i would have prefered to only be able to swap skill with helminth's original power not other warframe ability, then again we'll see how it goes.

[(XBOX)C11H22O11]

The only missions that would really make people ask for specific abilities is Eidolon hunting, no one really cares what you bring for other content 

[RedEyedRaven]

1. It's a small feature in a big update, actually.

2. Nobody is forced to subsume any frame at all.

[Gabbynaru]

15 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

Reworks do the same thing. No one complained about this. Because no one is attached to "identity", they are attached to functionality.

19 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Fair point, but who in their right mind would throw away good abilities and replace them with trash? At worst, a useless ability has been replaced with another useless ability, at best your squad is even more effective at their job.

20 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

Balancing Hell

What balance? This is Warframe.

20 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

You can not ignore this system

You personally can. As for your team, see point 2.

 

Basically, you're making mountains out of ant hills.

[(XBOX)pwnSacrifice]

I love a well thought out post that's not just a rant! You sir made my morning! I do disagree with you, while I can see your side, I think your concern is overblown a bit. Let's take this down point by point.

1.  Warframes Losing their Identity

I think this is your strongest point because in some cases, we will be taking something the community views as iconic and handing it out. Roar, Mind Control, and Quiver come to mind. With that being said, I feel like the restrictions we have in place (1 ability per frame, damage boosts replace damage boosts) will allow us to find new niches for frames that otherwise struggle to find one. Will Larva hydroid feel weird at first? sure, but it very much could be an evolution of how we view frames. I can't deny that we're losing a bit of uniqueness amongst frames, but we're gaining a ton of uniqueness in personal expression and I think that's worth a lot

2. Reduced Clarity on what your Squad can do.

Another good point, but I would argue that in most cases, we already can't tell what our squad can do. Quite a few builds are only able to use 1 or 2 abilities in the kit, and of those, there can be several types. Individual skill level plays a lot in this as well. Unless you're forming a squad from hand picked players, you already have no idea what kind of squad you're jumping into. With this system, at least you can be sure your own build will likely be self-sufficient.

3. Balancing Hell

Yep! It sure is! I actually think this will make keeping usage balance easier (the main kind of balance DE clearly cares about). See frames that are very niche or not well loved are for sure going to see more play with this system as people try to break them. This is very very healthy for the game. Obviously there are going to be combos we find that the Devs didn't think of, and it will be a problem for a time, however those issues are outliers in what appears on it's face to be a robust system

4. You can not ignore this system

Sure you can. Just like you can opt out of participating in missions you don't like. Just like you don't have to use your operator. Just like you don't have to do or use anything in warframe. That being said, you would be a fool not to engage with this system. It's highly compelling, even if you never subsume a frame. Also, just because other players are going to use it does not force you into using it. Much like operators, you can ignore the benefits of the system if you don't like it, but other players are and will engage with it, and other players *are* ignore-able.

 

I think my main concern is more specifically mechanical in nature and I just have so many questions about edge-case interactions. From a surface level look and judging by the community's reaction, things seem pretty good.

[Alpha_Tango]

I was not expecting everyone to like the Helminth system. But I will swap for hybrid WFs anyday if it will improve their efficiency. Breaking the monotony of regular WFs may be thematically backward, but come on, who doesn't like discovering possibilities with this new system? 

If something goes haywire along the way, so be it. Beside customization, this game thrives on experimentation. Steel Path gave me the playground outside Simulacrum. This one will give me my personal "fun but sinister" laboratory to hatch abominations with. To hell with brokeness, that is DE's job to deal with lol. 

[RedEyedRaven]

Ironically, the update is gonna have a lot more to offer but the forums can only muster to care about the Helminth-system.

Yes, in terms of customization it's gonna have some impact. On a voluntary basis. 

 

If I think my Oberon is good the way he is, but somebody else trades hallowed ground for like well of life (which would remove one tool, and vastly empower another tool Oberon already has) then by all means, he or she shall have all the fun he or she wants with that setup.

 

I certainly will shoehorn dispensary into my Vauban somehow. Will it truly impact my teammates in a negative way? Like "Free energy/health/ammo!" - "No, you've lost your identity!"?

 

[Ikyr0]

Forums are full of senseless whinging from a vocal minority. Of course, you are free to express your opinion.  But that's my opinion.

Helminth is injecting a ton of flavor and customizability to the game that most of us have been hungry for. 

If the identity of one of your frames is being shattered, then simply make a new identity by replacing one of ITS abilities.

Even looking at how powerful Roar is...I'm still only equipping it on ONE of my frames, while others have better options.

This system does however exacerbate the issue of old, outdated kits requiring full reworks. Valkyr and Atlas for example. Pretty sure DE will continue to do reworks, as Helminth has been in the works for a long time now anyways. It's not meant to be a bandaid solution, but an additional feature.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

34 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Before this system, you could just have a quick look on the composition of your squad, and you knew immediately what each frame is capable of.

With this system, you simply cannot tell anymore, each Frame will be able to do more or less everything.

At the same time, you might expect a certain frame to use an ability - but that player might have swapped it out and cannot do that anymore.

This is a pretty fair complaint that I hadn’t thought about. My counter would be that most people are not going to be replacing the most useful parts of their frames kits. For example, no one is going to be dropping Blessing from their Trinity, no one is dropping Iron Skin or Roar from their Rhino etc., so you should still expect them to be able to do whatever that frame is good at.

The flip side obviously is that you’ll have no idea what ability they’ve added. Perhaps DE could add a feature where we can see our squad mates ability lists similar to how we can see each other’s loadouts?

[RedEyedRaven]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said:

Perhaps DE could add a feature where we can see our squad mates ability lists similar to how we can see each other’s loadouts?

What's the point tho? Once in the mission, it's not like anyone can just switch around.

And it doesn't truly matter that much. If a player removes, say, Peacemaker on a Mesa, chances are he's either trolling or doesn't really have any grasp of the game whatsoever. That player would have been an unfavorable teammate without replacing the ability, too.

 

Or take my example with Oberon. IF somebody removes hallowed ground for Well of Life... Oberon loses one nice tool, but gains a powerful addition to his other tool, Rejuvenation.

[(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face]

2 minutes ago, RedEyedRaven said:

What's the point tho? Once in the mission, it's not like anyone can just switch around.

The point would be to see what your squad mates can do, but I agree that it’s not too big of a deal.

2 minutes ago, RedEyedRaven said:

And it doesn't truly matter that much. If a player removes, say, Peacemaker on a Mesa, chances are he's either trolling or doesn't really have any grasp of the game whatsoever. That player would have been an unfavorable teammate without replacing the ability, too.

 

Or take my example with Oberon. IF somebody removes hallowed ground for Well of Life... Oberon loses one nice tool, but gains a powerful addition to his other tool, Rejuvenation.

Agreed, it doesn’t matter that much. Warframe is an illusion of a co-op game outside of endurance runs. What your squad mates can do does not make much difference at all.

[AltheusVI]

If you don't like the sound of the system then don't engage with it, simple as that.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

1 hour ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

Couldn’t of said it any better 

[DreisterDino]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

vor einer Stunde schrieb DreisterDino:

You can not ignore this system

You personally can. As for your team, see point 2.

 

vor 57 Minuten schrieb (XB1)pwnSacrifice:

Sure you can. Just like you can opt out of participating in missions you don't like.

Well, what i meant is that i will face it and cant avoid it.

Sure i can avoid doing it myself, but i will always see others using it.

This is mainly tied to Con Number 1 btw and the whole "identity"/"flair" thing.

 

vor 57 Minuten schrieb Gabbynaru:

vor einer Stunde schrieb DreisterDino:

reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Fair point, but who in their right mind would throw away good abilities and replace them with trash?

  

vor 57 Minuten schrieb (XB1)pwnSacrifice:

Another good point, but I would argue that in most cases, we already can't tell what our squad can do.

 

You are right that in 99% of the cases this wont mean my Teammate will be weaker than he could be.

And if i expect a Rhino to cast Roar, each Rhino will most likely still have that ability.

I just think that its still kinda important to know what your teammate can do.

 

Yes, in Exterminate, Sabotage etc it doesnt matter, but in missions like Interception its nice to know if my Teammate is able to CC a point or stuff like that,

and when i play with less experienced players i do sometimes look out for stuff like that to see where my help might be needed.

[GSDAkatsuki]

Honestly my concern is that this makes DE lazy in doing reworks or rebalancing for warframes that still need it.

[SneakyErvin]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

When the game added customization options to how frames look, that whole idea kinda started to die. We interchange one thing, why not something else to make the frame better fit the operator? It got further pushed towards the grave when people started to support the idea that Valkyr actually got physically altered by Alad V and Hysteria came from all of that. The Broken Frame kinda empties the nailgun into the coffin regarding this.

If this whole thing was done through anything but Helminth I would find it odd, but Helminth is the center of how frames are made, so being able to swap abilities and hardware through it seems pretty sensible.

[(XBOX)pwnSacrifice]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

 

Well, what i meant is that i will face it and cant avoid it.

That argument boils down to "I don't like how others are having fun". 

Just because I don't like Nyx doesn't mean I have to "face" her. Do I find chaos to be annoying? sure, same for cataclysm, but I let the other players have their fun, do their thing, and we finish the mission and move on. I feel like that's an incredibly childish attitude to take if you cannot deal with how other people approach the problem of "murder everyone". 

[Tyreaus]

I certainly don't hate it, but I feel there's a missed opportunity.

In some cases, the subsumable abilities are effective only because of the kit they're part of. See, for example, Limbo's Banish.

Other abilities on the list vary wildly for the potential they bring. Compare Nyx's Mind Control (on one target) to something like Harrow's Condemn or Protea's Dispenser. Or Limbo's Banish to...anything on the list.

Others still carry the same problems as their originals, like Ash's Shuriken needing an augment to be effective.

Not to mention many of them seem to outshine the Helminth abilities - a flaw on both ends, really.

I think it would have been much more effective to create unique abilities - at least for some cases, if not all of them - that match the theme of their originating Warframe, rather than lifting an ability as-is. Those could be tuned specifically for the Helminth system, too, and could explore avenues that might not work because the niche is already filled. (Just for example: being able to create a wall that Banishes enemies or allies that pass through it would fit Limbo, but his kit is already filled out so there isn't a place for it. Another example might be an updated form of Shuriken that launches more homing blades as its charged, or a dispenser that grants added ammo efficiency but doesn't drop health or energy - so on and so forth.)

It is what it is but I will say, I'm not terribly into it. More interested in the Helminth abilities than any of the subsumed ones, TBQH.