Hating the Idea of the Helminth-System...am i alone with this?

[DreisterDino]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (XB1)pwnSacrifice:

That argument boils down to "I don't like how others are having fun". 

Just because I don't like Nyx doesn't mean I have to "face" her. Do I find chaos to be annoying? sure, same for cataclysm, but I let the other players have their fun, do their thing, and we finish the mission and move on. I feel like that's an incredibly childish attitude to take if you cannot deal with how other people approach the problem of "murder everyone". 

No, thats not what i mean.

I never cared about what weapons/frames others used and how they are having fun.

If something really annoys me, which is rare, (like bad Limbo player or something), i just leave the mission and start again.

 

But in this case it changes the general flair/identity/design approach of the game, thats what is bothering me.

Maybe hard to explain, i dont know...and then its tied to the "it will be present everywhere in the game" point i made.

Both points alone arent a big deal, but together they really change the overall game experience, at least for me.

 

Btw: The gameplay side of this isnt even really important, thats not what i am talking about in this case.

  

vor 2 Minuten schrieb HerpDerpy:

My philosophy on playing in pubs is to act like you're playing it solo. that way you cant be disappointed if everyone else is an idiot, and you get a pleasant surprise if they aren't.

Again, its not about if the other players are bad, trolls, annoying or afk or stuff like that.

Its a general thing about Warframe-Design, Art-Design, Lore, stuff like that.

[IggySnow]

If you're joining pubs just to play with randoms then you cant really complain about not knowing what powers the warframes can use. Since joining random people is just that, random.

My philosophy on playing in pubs is to act like you're playing it solo. that way you cant be disappointed if everyone else is an idiot, and you get a pleasant surprise if they aren't.

[(NSW)Cion]

1 hour ago, DreisterDino said:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

But wouldn't that be I dunno....fun? Besides this game was meant to be like a "power fantasy". We got like arcanes, riven mods, etc.

I think we're beyond pass all of that if people like you are making a complaint on the Helminth System, which by the way hasn't even been released yet so perharps you should wait til having a final say on the feature.

[(XBOX)pwnSacrifice]

2 minutes ago, DreisterDino said:

No, thats not what i mean.

I never cared about what weapons/frames others used and how they are having fun.

If something really annoys me, which is rare, (like bad Limbo player or something), i just leave the mission and start again.

 

But in this case it changes the general flair/identity/design approach of the game, thats what is bothering me.

Maybe hard to explain, i dont know...

I think general flair goes out the window when we get to customize pretty much everything about our frames, including their silhouette. 

I feel like, given what they've presented us, that most of our frames will retain or perhaps bolster their identity because outside of a few cases, most frames aren't tied to their abilities per se, but more the roles and niches they fill in the game for us. Rhino, no matter what you give him or what ability you take away, will always be a tanky support frame. His whole kit and design ensure that. Nidus will always be about getting those mad stacks, Octavia with her strong music mechanic, Ember/Gauss/Baruuk with their meters. Saryn will Nuke, Nova is still going to use M. Prime. Neckros will still be loot daddy. Nearly every frame already has a strong Identity tied to it and the ones that don't? I think this system might shake it up enough to call attention to those frames (I'm thinking valkyr but that might just be me)

As an added bonus, we might see builds that give frames new and exciting Identities because of some synergy that couldn't exist before. Imagine a world where Neckros is a good and viable choice for profit taker because of eclipse, or maybe some exciting oberon eso nuke build using helminth empower and his hallowed ground + augment. WHO KNOWS? I think in this case, the possibilities trump the downsides. 

[DreisterDino]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (XB1)pwnSacrifice:

I feel like, given what they've presented us, that most of our frames will retain or perhaps bolster their identity because outside of a few cases, most frames aren't tied to their abilities per se, but more the roles and niches they fill in the game for us. Rhino, no matter what you give him or what ability you take away, will always be a tanky support frame. His whole kit and design ensure that. Nidus will always be about getting those mad stacks, Octavia with her strong music mechanic, Ember/Gauss/Baruuk with their meters. Saryn will Nuke, Nova is still going to use M. Prime. Neckros will still be loot daddy. Nearly every frame already has a strong Identity tied to it and the ones that don't? I think this system might shake it up enough to call attention to those frames (I'm thinking valkyr but that might just be me)

Fair point, and i agree with that.

Frames with a strong identity will most likely keep that identity.

And adding one ability to Nekros wont make him something completly different.

 

At the same time, identies get mixxed up a lot.

Everyone can become a CC Frame if you add abilities like Lull from Baruuk.

Everyone can become a support Healer with Trinity's ability or a Buffer with Rhinos Roar or things like that.

 

And then there is the example from my first post:

Embers Theme is fire - but now she can have eletric/magnetic/ice abilities. That doesnt really feel right.

Or a Rhino which Lulls enemies to sleep? How does that makes sense?

[Wolfdoggie]

The only thing I hate is not being able to replace all 4 of Ash's bad skills, or just transferring his entire skin appearance to a frame with better abilities. 😛

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

1 hour ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

It's just the forums. We're kinda in an echo-chamber of negativity at the moment. 

Misery loves company and people always dislike happy positive people. 

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

Hated the system since it was announced. It should have ONLY been the Helminth abilities. 2 frames got absolutely robbed.

[(XBOX)pwnSacrifice]

1 minute ago, DreisterDino said:

Fair point, and i agree with that.

Frames with a strong identity will most likely keep that identity.

And adding one ability to Nekros wont make him something completly different.

 

At the same time, identies get mixxed up a lot.

Everyone can become a CC Frame if you add abilities like Lull from Baruuk.

Everyone can become a support Healer with Trinity's ability or a Buffer with Rhinos Roar or things like that.

 

And then there is the example from my first post:

Embers Theme is fire - but now she can have eletric/magnetic/ice abilities. That doesnt really feel right.

Or a Rhino which Lulls enemies to sleep? How does that makes sense?

if we're getting to that level

We are playing as teenage space ninjas controlling steel/flesh hybrids with psychic powers and throw hadukens from our hands. Sense went out the window a looooooong time ago. 

and sure, while players *can* opt for strange setups, lets be real here, it'll be uncommon to see and be a novelty more than a disruption. And the Helminth system makes a ton of sense lore-wise and is thematically appropriate considering what warframes are. From a top-down design approach this is a great system. Might be a nightmare if you're a bottom-up kinda design person but then warframe is not the game for you if you are.

[(PSN)Yggranya]

25 minutes ago, HerpDerpy said:

If you're joining pubs just to play with randoms then you cant really complain about not knowing what powers the warframes can use. Since joining random people is just that, random.

In other games, the only thing i expect from other people is that they do their job and even that is too much to ask in MMOs. Warframe is the only game where you can do everything while at the same time do nothing. Cue all the nukers. This will probably make it worse, but i guess we will see and i can say with confidence that i can see the future and it sucks.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

ATM, for me it looks like One handed action: Slap to face of players focused on Co-op, helping hand to Solo players.

[(PSN)corpusbonds]

Yeah I absolutely hate the idea, but like the cursor update (which I’m still salty about) it’s gonna be here to stay, so may as well get used to it.

[RedEyedRaven]

1 minute ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

ATM, for me it looks like One handed action: Slap to face of players focused on Co-op, helping hand to Solo players.

More customization is a slap to the face? What the hell?

 

It reminds me of that time Metroid Prime was not released yet...

 

"A 3D Metroid? Bruh that's got to be BAAAAAAAAD" , "Metroid as an Ego-shooter? That suggs!"

-a few months later-

A new system-seller!

-years later-

-"a true classic", "...one of the greatest games ever." "a good example of a game making a GOOD transition to 3D" 

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

Some of these are fair points that I can agree with on some level.  But I care more for the interesting combinations people will bring and might exist in the future with reworks/new frames.  It feels like it's a fresh breath of life into a rather stagnant game that isn't just a new content island.  That being said I am worried about DE's capabilities with future reworks/frames because they now have to look at how it impacts all frames.  I have to imagine DE has never bothered going for direct synergies with frames before specifically because of this.

Hopefully the system gets expanded upon and isn't just forgotten.

[(PSN)Onder6099]

1 hour ago, RedEyedRaven said:

More customization is a slap to the face? What the hell?

 

It reminds me of that time Metroid Prime was not released yet...

 

"A 3D Metroid? Bruh that's got to be BAAAAAAAAD" , "Metroid as an Ego-shooter? That suggs!"

-a few months later-

A new system-seller!

-years later-

-"a true classic", "...one of the greatest games ever." "a good example of a game making a GOOD transition to 3D" 

Simplified: Entering mission, doable Solo, with 8 Frames is OK?

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

Yes you are alone.  Very alone. . This will make the game more fun to play and give long time players something to do for a good while.  Unlike lichers and railjack grind  this will be something players will want to do. .  So it's a win for DE too..

[(PSN)SolarPhantom82]

4 hours ago, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

Yeah,  I was heart broken by railjack and down on the game ever since. .   This update has been a shot in the arm for me. ..  makes the game so much more interesting and fun for long term players. ... but don't worry   most the community are hyped for this. ..  Cause you know " FUN. 

[Aadi880]

Il y a 3 heures, GSDAkatsuki a dit :

Honestly my concern is that this makes DE lazy in doing reworks or rebalancing for warframes that still need it.

In all fairness, from DE's perspective, reworks are expensive to do, take up dev time which could have been spent on content and bug fixing. In an attempt to try to make it profitable, they often did reworks right before primed warframe releases or deluxes.

To DE, they don't think the cost of a rework is easily covered up by the results, which may or may not be favourable in the end (ie Pablo on Ember).

Easier to let the playerbase do it themselves to let everyone have the "rework" they want

 

However, I don't think this will stop DE from rebalancing abilities. The already started out with Zephyr's air burst and Trin's well of life. I would say that more rebalances are indeed close to come.

[Berserkerkitten]

I'm happy for everyone looking forward to it and enjoying the idea, but personally, I feel driven away by it. With Rhino's roar being a subsumed ability, why would I ever play Rhino again, unless I desperately wanted to depend on Iron Skin as a crutch for some reason? Certainly not for Rhino Charge or his stomp. What do I want with Valkyr, now that every frame can go full Eternal War and have a bunch of other decent abilities, where she's got garbage in her arsenal? I also don't see the appeal of at least half of the subsumable abilities, when in so many cases Eclipse or Roar are easily the strongest choice. I really don't like it. I'm not protesting against it, I'm not throwing a fit or demanding they remove it. But I really, strongly dislike it, up to a point where I don't even want to play anymore. I'll get over it, I'll get used to it, but I'm not a fan.

[Risitas123]

XD no.

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

This is a squad-based game where at any time 16 different abilities can occur. Who cares if 4 of those 16 abilities did not initially belong to the frame that's using it , hereby being more or less appropriate to the situation at hand ? Can you even tell most of the time who casted what in a team setting ?

I'm sure if there are totally broken loadouts created they will get nerfed, so worrying about balance is kind of a moot point. Just enjoy the fact you can get rid of terrible abilities in quite a few frames and replace them with great abilities from other frames and move on !!! Enjoy the fact now all frames can armor strip, open enemies to finisher , damage mitigate, crowd control, buff themselves or teammates, instead of worrying about balance.

[Aadi880]

à l’instant, Berserkerkitten a dit :

I'm happy for everyone looking forward to it and enjoying the idea, but personally, I feel driven away by it. With Rhino's roar being a subsumed ability, why would I ever play Rhino again, unless I desperately wanted to depend on Iron Skin as a crutch for some reason? Certainly not for Rhino Charge or his stomp. What do I want with Valkyr, now that every frame can go full Eternal War and have a bunch of other decent abilities, where she's got garbage in her arsenal?

Hmm...

Do bear in mind that Valkyr and Rhino themselves can also take a subsumed warframe ability as well.

I'd imagine, for Valkyr, if I replace Paralysis with Radial Blind, so, I essentially have a "better excalibur" when it comes to heavy attack builds on exalted weapons. Even better if I put Larvae on her. I'd say that she would certainly out-do other warframes in that regard.

As for Rhino, well, I don't really play has him, so I can't really say much, though, given the number of abilities subsumable, I think he'll definitely find a synergy with the rest of his kit.

[Berserkerkitten]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Aadi880:

Hmm...

Do bear in mind that Valkyr and Rhino themselves can also take a subsumed warframe ability as well.

I'd imagine, for Valkyr, if I replace Paralysis with Radial Blind, so, I essentially have a "better excalibur" when it comes to heavy attack builds on exalted weapons. Even better if I put Larvae on her. I'd say that she would certainly out-do other warframes in that regard.

As for Rhino, well, I don't really play has him, so I can't really say much, though, given the number of abilities subsumable, I think he'll definitely find a synergy with the rest of his kit.

That is a fair point and it is very likely that I'm focusing too much on aspects, which I personally perceive as downsides. I do worry that certain frames will become obsolete and lose their identity, but there might be more I can do with those by giving them new subsumed abilities than I realized. 

[IggySnow]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Yggranya said:

 i can say with confidence that i can see the future and it sucks.

mind giving me some loto numbers then?

Saying something like that is just flat out stupid. When Wisp was being made I looked at her on the dev streams and said to myself "oh shes going to be absolute trash, what a waste of dev time." Now shes my absolute favorite and iv put 2 umbral forma in her. 

No one knows what the future is going to look like, especially when it comes to warframe.

[Kaotyke]

1 hour ago, RedEyedRaven said:

More customization is a slap to the face? What the hell?

Worry not, this is the same guy who said that the Solo option was added because of, and after, Rivens.

No, I will not allow him to live it down.