Hating the Idea of the Helminth-System...am i alone with this?

[(PSN)Wolfsherrscher]

I believe its nice to have the Option than to not have it.

This way if you want to Experiment or just have dumb fun - now you can.

And if you dont - you dont have to because its OPTIONAL

[DrBorris]

5 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

If having one ability swapped make a frame lose their identity them the Warframe's identity was weak to begin with. If a Warframe is well designed than swapping an ability should be a difficult if not impossible decision. 

5 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Modding already does this. Range, strength, duration and efficiency can have massive impacts on what a frame is able to do. In addition, adding one new ability to the mix will rarely ever change a Warframe's impact, it will only enhance what a frame already does. 

5 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

3. Balancing Hell

Anything you can do with Helminth you could do now with a group of players. I very much doubt that a min/maxed team will be any more powerful after Helminth than what they are now. If this were a solo game I would agree, but it isn't, any balancing nightmare that Helminth "creates" already exists. 

5 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

4. You can not ignore this system

Why not? The meta isn't enforced and the impact allies have with Helminth modifications will be negligible at best. And again, any weird combination that people come up with could just as easily exist now in a public game. You can already have a Rhino buff Mesa, or a Nidus group enemies for Rhino. What we are capable of doing in a group isn't changing, we are just now able to do some minor group synergies solo.

[(PSN)Hooligonzo]

I'm all about the Helminth system.

I've got several Warframes baking in the Foundry right now.

If for no other reason, I'm celebrating the Helminth system because of Warframes with Hold abilities. They don't work well on Console (I play mainly PS4 and am used to the Touchpad Ability set up).  I can now swap out most of those Hold abilities, particularly Vauban's Mines.

I effin' hate Hold abilities, man.  And cycling them?  Like, make the Hold the cycling part at least so we can use whatever the default Ability is, arrghh I just hate it.

[Lessfatz]

Just have fun and try to appreciate their effort of trying to keep us entertained..

[(PSN)Yggranya]

1 hour ago, HerpDerpy said:

mind giving me some loto numbers then?

Saying something like that is just flat out stupid. When Wisp was being made I looked at her on the dev streams and said to myself "oh shes going to be absolute trash, what a waste of dev time." Now shes my absolute favorite and iv put 2 umbral forma in her. 

No one knows what the future is going to look like, especially when it comes to warframe.

And since we can't do anything to change it, we have no choise but to hope for the best. This was simply my prediction and if i'm right i will be sure to tell you "i told you so".

[RedEyedRaven]

2 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Worry not, this is the same guy who said that the Solo option was added because of, and after, Rivens.

In case he actually played Warframe in an alternate timeline, it may or may not be that way. Perhaps in that timeline, Vay Hek is the actual Grineer-queen, too.

[Hayabusa97]

3 hours ago, Kaotyke said:

Worry not, this is the same guy who said that the Solo option was added because of, and after, Rivens.

No, I will not allow him to live it down.

Seriously?

[Kaotyke]

 

8 minutes ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Seriously?

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1207726-raids-return-when/?do=findComment&comment=11703663

[Mr.ToastForPresident]

The pros seriously outweigh the cons in my eyes.
 

You say that Warframes will lose their identities? Considering theres at least one ability per frame that goes unused 99% of the time, like Mesa's 1 or Ivara's Navigator, i say they arent missing much when they lose that ability. Instead, since most people are going to have abilities that compliment the kit of their warframe, i would say its the opposite effect, and really the identity of the Warframe becomes more personalized to you. And the next point about reduced clarity of your squad, it isnt like Saryn is going to stop being Saryn without her terrible 3, like i said, people would use abilities that compliment a kit. Most frames would stay the same, just perform better in their role. If there's a balancing issue? Im sure DE would just rework some abilities on how they interact with certain frames, but OP abilities already exist in Warframe, so it doesnt bother me that much.

[(PSN)TrollyThyTrinity]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Stealth_Cobra said:

This is a squad-based game where at any time 16 different abilities can occur. Who cares if 4 of those 16 abilities did not initially belong to the frame that's using it , hereby being more or less appropriate to the situation at hand ? Can you even tell most of the time who casted what in a team setting ?

I'm sure if there are totally broken loadouts created they will get nerfed, so worrying about balance is kind of a moot point. Just enjoy the fact you can get rid of terrible abilities in quite a few frames and replace them with great abilities from other frames and move on !!! Enjoy the fact now all frames can armor strip, open enemies to finisher , damage mitigate, crowd control, buff themselves or teammates, instead of worrying about balance.

is it really squad based tho? Squad by Choice rather , you really dont need a squad for any of this. solo guides are always highlighted. this co-op, yea  Co-optional 

[Hayabusa97]

1 hour ago, Kaotyke said:

 

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1207726-raids-return-when/?do=findComment&comment=11703663

Please tell me this guy is taking the piss and not actually serious because that is just plain stupid

[(NSW)Kirbys-Epic-Yarn]

It sounds like a cool idea but I personally don’t like it cus warframe abilities are the warframes identity. Imagine having a hydroid abilitie on ember yeah no that’s ridiculous I think.

[AndrejDelaney]

You are not alone with the sentiment. I feel very much the same.

 

I have been thinking about it a lot since it's been announced. As a new customization system it certainly is exciting but as someone very much invested in the lore/story behind the Warframes and the Tenno I feel like this new addition either just doesn't fit ... or feels too tacked on (as it stands right now). I need some context/lore/story as to why we - the Tenno - think it's a good idea to mess with our Warframes like that. This goes well beyond putting some new modifications/mods in, after all. You think Umbra is fine with being experimented on like that?

Another idea/thought I had was that the infusion process could/should change something visually on the Warframe this happened to: Ember with a Frost ability for example could lead to one of her arms being engulfed in ice - something, anything like that. Or the infused ability could/should change (slightly) visually at the very least: Garuda's blood altar has her signature talons basically shooting out of the ground, impaling the enemy - makes sense for Garuda ... looks weird/tacked on on any other frame. 

Again: The whole system is super exciting on paper, in theory ... but, right now, feels very much out of place IMO, from a lore/story perspective and even design-wise/visually.

[MagnasWill]

Agree 100% with the op. DE already barely can balance existing content in game, with the new Helmynth System they are basically sabotaging themselves. My only hope is that once they gather feedback from the beta players (everyone except console ones) they start to see the many lackluster skills currently in-game and change for the better.
Waiting with low expectations, still.

[Chaemyerelis]

13 hours ago, DreisterDino said:

After seeing the list of abilties which can be transfered i am sure i will really dislike the system,

and not just that, i have the feeling it might make the overall Warframe experience less enjoyable for me.

 

Many people are hyped about transfering Abilities from one frame to another, and i can totally understand why thats the case.

You might expect me to rant about how this system will completly break the bits of balance left in the game, but thats not even what i dislike about this system.

(although i am sure this will be crazy overpowered, but i dont consider that too much of a problem since we are overpowered already, so not much is changing regarding that). Let me quickly list what are the biggest negative aspects of this system for me.

 

Cons:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

 

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Before this system, you could just have a quick look on the composition of your squad, and you knew immediately what each frame is capable of.

With this system, you simply cannot tell anymore, each Frame will be able to do more or less everything.

At the same time, you might expect a certain frame to use an ability - but that player might have swapped it out and cannot do that anymore.

 

3. Balancing Hell

I am not talking about the overall Balance of the game, but the balancing of certain abilities.

Now that each frame will be able to use certain abilities, i am 100% sure that broken Combos will be the result.

But what to do then? Nerf the Ability which can be transfered (and maybe destroy the Origin Warframe with that)? Nerf the Ability only for recieving Frames? Ignore it?

I really wonder what will happen, because no matter which route you take, it will create more problems probably.

Also, whenever DE creates a new frame, they basically have to take all frames into consideration when designing the abilities.

 

4. You can not ignore this system

If you dont like Liches, Railjack, Arbitrations, Orbs, Eidolons, Nightwave, Rivens or stuff like that, its relatively easy to just ignore it and do what you want to do.

It doesnt has much of an impact on me if others enjoy those parts of the game. I hate Orbs aswell for example, but i can simply forget about them.

But this system will be present everywhere in the game - you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others.

I know people will say "just play Solo", and yes, this might be the consequence for me...but i always liked playing with randoms, and often there are benefits for doing so.

 

 

 

 

To be fair, there are a few positive aspects, and i dont want to hide them, so i will list them aswell. But are those Pro's worth the Con's?

 

Pros:

1. More room for build diversity/experiments

There might be lots of fun combos and i understand that it might make certain frames more attractive to use.

At the same time, lots of different builds might be possible. Right now, on certain frames you always build for nothing but range for example, and that might change.

 

2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

There are abilities in the game which are completly useless and it might be fun to simply exchange them with something useful.

But wouldn't it be better to rework those obvious trash abilities instead of creating such a system?

 

 

 

In conclusion, i really doubt i will enjoy this system and it's implications although it has a few benefits of course.

For the first time in my Warframe History, i really "fear" the addition of a feature.

With everything else added in the past my mindset was "either i like it and play it, or i hate it, ignore it and move on".

But this time i feel this is not possible... Am i alone with this opinion? So far i have only seen Threads about what combos might be cool.

Yeah not a fan. Its like DE said screw balance let embrace total chaos since we cant seem to fix crappy frames.

What peeves me off the most is them giving away valks only decent ability.

[faizdikra]

Cons
1. 3 abilities vs 1 abilities (OFC only one each mod config), still got 75% identity and its mean more than 50% right?. It's happened on another game too.
2. Well im afraid too for this point, some smurfer or troller would use this as new "game" for them, IYKWIM.
3. It's DE's job and of course coming from community feedback to tweak, buff, nerf, and give another hotfix. Hotfix will occur until 1000 times each update, lol.
4. OFC no, because we could use this system anywhere (even captura). DE decreased requirement from MR 15 to MR 8 too.
Pros
1. Yep, tank, DPS, CC could switch role too. No problem, but their role wouldn't reach potential with their subsume abilities, cause DE already adjusted the stat so it wouldn't make the game really really broken.
2. Right, wait... rework? too much work and we need to adapt for more, and DE should fit our invested polarity on our old mod config. I would give example for Ember, she got brilliant rework, and my old mod config doesn't need to change polarity after that rework. But i need to learn again how to play her. It's kinda fun to learn new abilities, but my brain would explode with a lot of previously and more information from this game.

[Oreades]

On 2020-08-13 at 11:04 AM, DreisterDino said:

Pros:

1. More room for build diversity/experiments

Sorry but nothing is going to ad build diversity and experimentation to this game until DE stops punishing players for experimentation and stagnating builds with their antiquated fixed forma system. 

All the Helminth adds is a hiccup where a few players will noodle out the most broken builds, everyone will cookiecutter copy them and then DE will go into full panic nerf mode. Hell they already panic nerfed based before the system even launched. 

 

Switch forma to an iterative multi-polarity system, there will still be an "optimal" BUT there will also be a return on every forma you invest into the frame, the game will FINALLY stop punishing players for experimenting AND there is literally zero power creep. 

[Surbusken]

The real problem, is it is copy-pasted content.

People grinded or paid for those abilities already. You can't resell old content especially not at astronomical cost, it's weak. I thought warframe held itself to a higher standard.

The fact you had to first grind or pay for the original frame, then wait days to unlock those animations, is more than enough. Think back of some of the things you went through grinding for certain frames, it was already overkill crazy in itself.

Now you have to re-grind animations you already own, through a forced planet-grind of all things, what the actual f.

And that's assuming you didn't already did delete those frames and have re-grind those before you can triple regrind the helminth unlock.

It actually was a great idea, the concept is perfect - based on the premise of sandbox toying around with it, freely.
But at the high cost of using it, it defeats its own purpose... lol. Some thing like gta or minecraft as a counter example, when people have good gameplay they can entertain themselves indefinitely.

That is what helminth should have been if they just had enough confidence in themselves to not pick the slave corporate generic blueprint.

So yeah the whole thing is just embarrassing, especially factoring in it's an attempt to patch broken frames, a problem they created.

We get to go planet-grind so they can get away with not working on optimizing and balancing broken frames, okay great.

[lukasystem]

hace 54 minutos, Surbusken dijo:

The real problem, is it is copy-pasted content.

People grinded or paid for those abilities already. You can't resell old content especially not at astronomical cost, it's weak. I thought warframe held itself to a higher standard.

The fact you had to first grind or pay for the original frame, then wait days to unlock those animations, is more than enough. Think back of some of the things you went through grinding for certain frames, it was already overkill crazy in itself.

Now you have to re-grind animations you already own, through a forced planet-grind of all things, what the actual f.

And that's assuming you didn't already did delete those frames and have re-grind those before you can triple regrind the helminth unlock.

It actually was a great idea, the concept is perfect - based on the premise of sandbox toying around with it, freely.
But at the high cost of using it, it defeats its own purpose... lol. Some thing like gta or minecraft as a counter example, when people have good gameplay they can entertain themselves indefinitely.

That is what helminth should have been if they just had enough confidence in themselves to not pick the slave corporate generic blueprint.

So yeah the whole thing is just embarrassing, especially factoring in it's an attempt to patch broken frames, a problem they created.

We get to go planet-grind so they can get away with not working on optimizing and balancing broken frames, okay great.

What a big load of spilled nonsense.... the whole paragraph. They legit offered free warframe parts on Twitch drops before Deimos release, and we're talking about serious grind frames like Khora, Nidus, Harrow....

[Surbusken]

Do you have a point

 

[JackHargreav]

I like the Helminth system. Subsuming frames is pretty satisfing honestly and finally I can have healing on any frame.

To me non of the frames lost their identity or whatever. Also most of the abilities just don't have that big of an impact. Non of the abilities give you Dr so squishy frames will still be squishy.

[Lutesque]

On 2020-08-13 at 5:07 PM, (XB1)TyeGoo said:

I'm really getting tired of this community..

No fun or experiments allowed whatsoever, jeesh..

You know.... You are right.... I don't like the fact that you are right but I can't ignore it either.... Il just have to suck it up.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

Your points are fair except for one:

 

You can completely ignore it.

I simply wanted the grind to be fun/combat oriented even if more lengthy with HoD.

Quality combat gameplay has to be/stay inherent to the brand.

[Krankbert]

Am 13.8.2020 um 22:32 schrieb DrBorris:

And again, any weird combination that people come up with could just as easily exist now in a public game. You can already have a Rhino buff Mesa, or a Nidus group enemies for Rhino. What we are capable of doing in a group isn't changing, we are just now able to do some minor group synergies solo.

You do know that you can only have four players in a group, right?

[BahamutKaiser]

Spilt Milk? The box is open, and calling it Pandora doesn't change that.