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Hating the Idea of the Helminth-System...am i alone with this?


DreisterDino
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Am 13.8.2020 um 22:32 schrieb DrBorris:

And again, any weird combination that people come up with could just as easily exist now in a public game. You can already have a Rhino buff Mesa, or a Nidus group enemies for Rhino. What we are capable of doing in a group isn't changing, we are just now able to do some minor group synergies solo.

You do know that you can only have four players in a group, right?

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  • 7 months later...
On 2020-08-13 at 4:26 PM, Gabbynaru said:

Reworks do the same thing. No one complained about this. Because no one is attached to "identity", they are attached to functionality.

Except reworks generally still fit the theme of that frame. Like the Vauban, Wukong and Ember reworks. They are now much better but they still have their identity intact after their reworks. Celestial twin, Ember's new 4 ect all fit their theme.

Putting an Ice ability on Ember, however, is taking away from her theme. It is absolutely not the same thing at all.

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I'm Hating it NOW, after DE announced a solution to companion death

but made it a Protea Dispensary augment

then used Helminth as an Excuse for not making it universal.

 

Helminth is just a Balancing crutch. DE doesn't have to fix bad abilities or warframes anymore, they can just tell you to Helminth Subsume the problems away.

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vor 3 Stunden schrieb (PSN)haphazardlynamed:

I'm Hating it NOW, after DE announced a solution to companion death

but made it a Protea Dispensary augment

then used Helminth as an Excuse for not making it universal.

 

Helminth is just a Balancing crutch. DE doesn't have to fix bad abilities or warframes anymore, they can just tell you to Helminth Subsume the problems away.

Yeah, the Protea augment baffled me as well and I think it is a very bad idea. "if you want to play Sentinel in harder content, you have to have Dispensary subsumed" is not a message that I like to hear.

Other than that, I LOVE Helminth. It is so much fun. And since they very rarely balanced warframes and did it with Helminth as well (Zephyr e.g.), I don't see your argument that they don't fix abilities or warframes anymore.

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9 hours ago, (PSN)haphazardlynamed said:

I'm Hating it NOW, after DE announced a solution to companion death

but made it a Protea Dispensary augment

then used Helminth as an Excuse for not making it universal.

 

Helminth is just a Balancing crutch. DE doesn't have to fix bad abilities or warframes anymore, they can just tell you to Helminth Subsume the problems away.

Wait, they actually did that!?!?!?!?

Nba Awards Lol GIF by NBA

Holy cow. Wow!

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Posted (edited)

I fully love the system.
I brought real life to frames I otherwise I keep in the "away from sight locker".
I use the helminth mostly to add survivability of some sort so that doesn't impact the squad thing tho.
Overall I was beginning to stop playing almost at all before this(played once in a month and only logged on for the daily)
After this thing tho I am still experimenting and min-maxing.
I have a lot of requirements when I use the system tho - to not change my original build much(or at all), to be additive to the survivability to an extent that it doesn't matter what level you fight, if it can to be in sync with the wf(I added another ball to vauban's balls for example :D ) etc.

tl;dr I love the idea of the system and I will even go as far as to say - forget all the balance and everything, give every ability swap potential with 0 nerfs - we were op before helminth, it didn't change anything except give more fun 



PS also WTS Nekros Prime set, 1 million plat

Edited by vegetosayajin
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1 hour ago, (PSN)DoctorWho_90250 said:

Wait, they actually did that!?!?!?!?

Nba Awards Lol GIF by NBA

Holy cow. Wow!

Yeah, it was in the latest Devstream

there's going to be an Augment that lets Protea's Dispensary ability re-summon dead Companions with a ridiculous 1min cooldown on it.

and ppl are like "but what about everyone who's not Protea?"

and DE is "its ok, you can subsume Dispensary"

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Posted (edited)

I don’t remember this being presented as „the solution to companion death“ instead of just one  of four upcoming augment. I also don’t remember anyone asking anything, I just remember Rebecca mentioning that the ability was subsumable while presenting the augment. Maybe I was watching a different dev stream.

Edited by Krankbert
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I have more of an issue with the lich system than this.

Only time I don't solo is when I am bored or want to get through something faster.

I don't care the frames people use or the abilities they swap, as I tend to go off on my own during all missions save for mobile/defense.

The only way I would even bother with this system was if they gave us older abilities such as WOF for only ember as an option, side of that they system is trash to me.

But hey if people want to change their wf's ability then have at it.

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I don't like the idea at all, myself. I've used it, but it's just a way to make the users fix the problems DE created. There are too many warframes and not enough good ideas for all of them. 

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2 minutes ago, Ham_Grenabe said:

I don't like the idea at all, myself. I've used it, but it's just a way to make the users fix the problems DE created. There are too many warframes and not enough good ideas for all of them. 

When you have a large chunk of the fan base whining about no new content then we get stuff like this or new frames or heavily bugged/broken content. The player base must take part of the blame of that.

DE should be focusing on fixing bugs instead of cranking out new content quickly.

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vor 50 Minuten schrieb (PSN)Jason_V_Jade:

When you have a large chunk of the fan base whining about no new content then we get stuff like this or new frames or heavily bugged/broken content. The player base must take part of the blame of that.

I think whatever chunk of the fan base says anything at all about the game is completely irrelevant compared to the much larger chunk of the fan base who doesn't say anything when there's no new content and also doesn't play when there's no new content.

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On 2021-05-07 at 11:07 AM, (PSN)Jason_V_Jade said:

When you have a large chunk of the fan base whining about no new content then we get stuff like this or new frames or heavily bugged/broken content. The player base must take part of the blame of that.

DE should be focusing on fixing bugs instead of cranking out new content quickly.

DE has to crank out new content quickly. They need a constant flow of new guns, frames, cosmetics, activities, and other stuff so people are either grinding or buying; fixing old bugs and old content probably doesn't make the numbers.

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Posted (edited)
On 2020-08-13 at 8:04 AM, DreisterDino said:

Cons:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

3. Balancing Hell

4. You can not ignore this system

Pros:

1. More room for build diversity/experiments

2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

Your argument for the cons is weak and makes little to no sense, a example is your 4, you can ignore the system.

3 they have already taken steps to balance it, look at the few OP abilities that have already been nerfed.

2 you want clarity on what people do? Than just a squad from your clan or recruitment chat because your never going to get that with public squads.

1 is the only one that makes even a little sense.

 

Edited: I did not see this thread was necromanced back to life, but than again I did not see this one back then.

Edited by Firedtm
necromanced back to life.
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On 2020-08-13 at 11:04 AM, DreisterDino said:

After seeing the list of abilties which can be transfered i am sure i will really dislike the system,

and not just that, i have the feeling it might make the overall Warframe experience less enjoyable for me.

 

Many people are hyped about transfering Abilities from one frame to another, and i can totally understand why thats the case.

You might expect me to rant about how this system will completly break the bits of balance left in the game, but thats not even what i dislike about this system.

(although i am sure this will be crazy overpowered, but i dont consider that too much of a problem since we are overpowered already, so not much is changing regarding that). Let me quickly list what are the biggest negative aspects of this system for me.

 

Cons:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

 

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Before this system, you could just have a quick look on the composition of your squad, and you knew immediately what each frame is capable of.

With this system, you simply cannot tell anymore, each Frame will be able to do more or less everything.

At the same time, you might expect a certain frame to use an ability - but that player might have swapped it out and cannot do that anymore.

 

3. Balancing Hell

I am not talking about the overall Balance of the game, but the balancing of certain abilities.

Now that each frame will be able to use certain abilities, i am 100% sure that broken Combos will be the result.

But what to do then? Nerf the Ability which can be transfered (and maybe destroy the Origin Warframe with that)? Nerf the Ability only for recieving Frames? Ignore it?

I really wonder what will happen, because no matter which route you take, it will create more problems probably.

Also, whenever DE creates a new frame, they basically have to take all frames into consideration when designing the abilities.

 

4. You can not ignore this system

If you dont like Liches, Railjack, Arbitrations, Orbs, Eidolons, Nightwave, Rivens or stuff like that, its relatively easy to just ignore it and do what you want to do.

It doesnt has much of an impact on me if others enjoy those parts of the game. I hate Orbs aswell for example, but i can simply forget about them.

But this system will be present everywhere in the game - you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others.

I know people will say "just play Solo", and yes, this might be the consequence for me...but i always liked playing with randoms, and often there are benefits for doing so.


 

 

 

 

To be fair, there are a few positive aspects, and i dont want to hide them, so i will list them aswell. But are those Pro's worth the Con's?

 

Pros:

1. More room for build diversity/experiments

There might be lots of fun combos and i understand that it might make certain frames more attractive to use.

At the same time, lots of different builds might be possible. Right now, on certain frames you always build for nothing but range for example, and that might change.

 

2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

There are abilities in the game which are completly useless and it might be fun to simply exchange them with something useful.

But wouldn't it be better to rework those obvious trash abilities instead of creating such a system?

 

 

 

In conclusion, i really doubt i will enjoy this system and it's implications although it has a few benefits of course.

For the first time in my Warframe History, i really "fear" the addition of a feature.

With everything else added in the past my mindset was "either i like it and play it, or i hate it, ignore it and move on".

But this time i feel this is not possible... Am i alone with this opinion? So far i have only seen Threads about what combos might be cool.

Idea: Augments. Basically, the Helminth can give your warframe passive abilities. These act much like mods, except they don't take up mod slots or capacity and don't have polarities. There's no limit to the number of Augments you can have, but the augments do have a downside: every augment grants a penalty to something. For example, one augment, Heavy Armor, gives your warframe +200 armor, but reduces movement speed slightly. Another augment, sensor scope, allows you to see enemies within range of your Enemy Radar through walls, but causes them to not show up on your minimap. 

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Posted (edited)

Oh, someone necro'd my topic, i wondered why i get forum-rep again although i didnt post anything 😄

Then let me add a quick recap on my thoughts presented back then.

 

Overall, after using the system i have to admit it is not as bad as i thought it would be.

With that being said, i still wouldnt change any of the points i made, they are still true for me although i wouldn't phrase them that harsh.

 

Zitat

1. Warframe's losing their identity

Still true imo, and still the most important factor for me, even if Warframe only lose 25% of their identity, i dont like it too much.

Seeing so many Frames with Larva for example did hurt Nidus more then the Frames which subsumed the ability probably, he is simply not as unique anymore.

This system made it a lot less relevant which Frame you pick for which mission, since each Frame can do everything now basically. Some might like this, some dont.

 

My personal work-around for this is that i only subsume Abilities if i think they still fit the theme of the Frame.

For example, i never put Valkyrs Warcry on a Male Warframe because its just silly to see someone like Rhino scream like Valkyr 😄

And while Larva might be good on more or less each Frame, i have only added it to Oberon i think because i think it works with his theme.

 

Zitat

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Since Warframe is so easy, its not a big deal.

Still, an indicator on which Frames have subsumed abilities would be useful.

 

Zitat

3. Balancing Hell

Again, not too much of a big deal since they have chosen to just nerf certain abilities for the recieving frames.

So, when you only look at the abilities, its not that big of a balancing nightmare.

On the other hand, if you look at the game as a whole, i still think there is an huge impact and it made the game a lot more easy again (powercreep) because the choice of your frame is less relevant now. Each frame can become more tanky now, each frame can have some CC and so on. Before the Helminth system, there was always just a little choice to be made like "do i want to be really tanky but dont have the option to CC?"...now you simply can have both.

 

Zitat

4. You can not ignore this system

I think most of you kinda missunderstood me there. the important part was: "you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others."

Meaning, i public groups you will always encounter this system, no matter which part of the game you are playing.

Again, not that big of a deal as i thought because Warframe is so overloaded with effects and everything that you dont notice a whole lot of what your mates are doing,

but still this is true for me.

While i can chose to not put a female Warcry on a bulky male Frame, i did encounter this in public matches.

This might not be important for you, but for me immersion is important in a game.

 

Zitat

1. More room for build diversity/experiments /// 2. getting rid of complete trash abilities

This proved to be a thing, and i did have some fun experimenting.

But, i think the Helminth system has shown that there are still way to many trash abilities and that this system is no replacement for proper reworks.

We only subsume the same few abilities onto each frame, the majority of possible subsumes are simply too bad to ever get used.

 

So, there is room for experiments and you can get rid of trash abilities,

but it kinda boils down to "does Larva/Warcry/or one of the other few worthwhile abilities work on this frame?"

Edited by DreisterDino
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On 2020-08-13 at 11:04 AM, DreisterDino said:

After seeing the list of abilties which can be transfered i am sure i will really dislike the system,

and not just that, i have the feeling it might make the overall Warframe experience less enjoyable for me.

 

Many people are hyped about transfering Abilities from one frame to another, and i can totally understand why thats the case.

You might expect me to rant about how this system will completly break the bits of balance left in the game, but thats not even what i dislike about this system.

(although i am sure this will be crazy overpowered, but i dont consider that too much of a problem since we are overpowered already, so not much is changing regarding that). Let me quickly list what are the biggest negative aspects of this system for me.

 

Cons:

1. Warframe's losing their identity:

There are simply so many abilities on the list which are only fitting to the frame they belong to imo.

I would find it really weird to see an Ember casting an Ice Wave for example, the whole "flair" or "aesthetics" of the Warframe system will be messed up.

I could make an unnecessary long list with examples, but i guess you get what i mean.

 

2. reduced clarity on what your Squad is able to do

Before this system, you could just have a quick look on the composition of your squad, and you knew immediately what each frame is capable of.

With this system, you simply cannot tell anymore, each Frame will be able to do more or less everything.

At the same time, you might expect a certain frame to use an ability - but that player might have swapped it out and cannot do that anymore.

 

3. Balancing Hell

I am not talking about the overall Balance of the game, but the balancing of certain abilities.

Now that each frame will be able to use certain abilities, i am 100% sure that broken Combos will be the result.

But what to do then? Nerf the Ability which can be transfered (and maybe destroy the Origin Warframe with that)? Nerf the Ability only for recieving Frames? Ignore it?

I really wonder what will happen, because no matter which route you take, it will create more problems probably.

Also, whenever DE creates a new frame, they basically have to take all frames into consideration when designing the abilities.

 

4. You can not ignore this system

If you dont like Liches, Railjack, Arbitrations, Orbs, Eidolons, Nightwave, Rivens or stuff like that, its relatively easy to just ignore it and do what you want to do.

It doesnt has much of an impact on me if others enjoy those parts of the game. I hate Orbs aswell for example, but i can simply forget about them.

But this system will be present everywhere in the game - you cannot "escape it" if you like to play with others.

I know people will say "just play Solo", and yes, this might be the consequence for me...but i always liked playing with randoms, and often there are benefits for doing so.

 


What if the Helminth could directly influence your warframe's stats, instead of rearranging abilities? Here's how it works:

Feed the Helminth the right resources, and it produces a Mutation. These can be equipped to your warframe, and provide boosts to ability range, weapon damage, sprint speed, etc. They're basically warframe mods, but without polarities, capacity, or a limited number of slots. You can equip as many mutations as you like, but there's a catch; mutations also provide penalties when equipped, much like corrupted mods. Unlike corrupted mods, it's a completely equal trade-off.

Take Blind Rage, for example. If it was a Mutation, it would grant +55% ability strength at the cost of -55% ability efficiency. It's an equal trade-off: a mutation buffs you exactly as much as it debuffs you; no more, no less.

The idea here is to make Warframes more customizable and encourage specialization without sacrificing balance. 

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vor 11 Minuten schrieb Brinstar7777:


What if the Helminth could directly influence your warframe's stats, instead of rearranging abilities? Here's how it works:

Feed the Helminth the right resources, and it produces a Mutation. These can be equipped to your warframe, and provide boosts to ability range, weapon damage, sprint speed, etc. They're basically warframe mods, but without polarities, capacity, or a limited number of slots. You can equip as many mutations as you like, but there's a catch; mutations also provide penalties when equipped, much like corrupted mods. Unlike corrupted mods, it's a completely equal trade-off.

Take Blind Rage, for example. If it was a Mutation, it would grant +55% ability strength at the cost of -55% ability efficiency. It's an equal trade-off: a mutation buffs you exactly as much as it debuffs you; no more, no less.

The idea here is to make Warframes more customizable and encourage specialization without sacrificing balance. 

I only see this if Ability Range/Strength/Duration/Efficiency are not part of the system.

With stuff like Sprint Speed, Jump Height, Holster Speed and effects like that, sure why not could be fun and balanced.

 

But with the 4 main stats i tell you why this is not balanced at all, just 1 example:

  • Rhino Roar Build / Chroma Buff build: You dont care about negative range/efficiency, all you want is more strength and duration.

 

This is the case for many frames and the builds you go for - we never need all 4 main stats to be good, so the supposed negative stat isnt a harm at all.

And with the variety of Frames and abilities we have we cannot say: "ok lets make overextended add negative duration instead of negative strength, this will solve it" because this might solve the problem on 1 Frame but at the same time opens up totally overpowered builds on other Frames. Lastly, where would this go? We are already able to get ability range of 50/60/70m on certain abilities where it is useful, do we really need to get to 100+ meters? Or a chroma buffing damage by up to 2000% instead of 900%? I dont think so.

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