Valkyr is going to become irrelevant

[Aldain]

On 2020-08-13 at 12:24 PM, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

*Valkyr is irrelevant.

Honestly, this.

If you want melee attack speed Volt is a better pick because you also get movement and reload speed, if you want a Tank Inaros is better in most cases and if you want an Exalted Melee unit that can take a hit we have Umbra, Wukong and Baruuk who can do things with similar levels of tank power (even if Wukong's Staff is a bit of a joke at the moment).

Valkyr has lost her niche due to being outdated as hell and is a far cry from the supposed Berserker she is supposed to be.

They should give her a rework, preferably by giving the Parazon Ripline functionality and giving her a better all around toolkit.

[NoLazyShadow]

1 час назад, Aldain сказал:

They should give her a rework, preferably by giving the Parazon Ripline functionality and giving her a better all around toolkit

Too bad this won't happen. DE rather to keep nerfing Valk and rework other frames rather than give her a bit of attention

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

I won't argue about ripline but i do use it to "attempt" to catch up to my brother from time to time, since it's a cheap power.

on paralysis. with max range and duration with it's aug, you can have a group of enemies on the floor at your feet for a good while. you can then use ground finishers and kill all of them before they even get back up. but it's not a perfect method.

warcry is warcry.

 

Hysteria is a bit....underappreciated for what it's potential is.

with a hysteria focused build alongside survival(adaptation, steel fiber, vitality, flow, both efficiency mods, umbral intensify and rage. and then use her hysterical assault augment for a free 50m teleport.) and her talons built for raw crit and the 60/60 mods(viral) she can easily mow down anything of at least 140 with little trouble. this means she can more than handle star chart mission and sorties no problem. throw in arcane energize and guardian/aegis/grace and she'll always have energy to spare as well as good armor for extra protection. the key with this setup is to bounce in and out(just switch to your primary, don't deactivate her 4.) of hysteria so that rage refills your energy when you get low(energize for sustaining energy while in hysteria.) and let adaptation be your fall back.

 

energize will basically mean that disruptors are her primary threat(other than the usual enemies that straight up cancel your powers, but thats not exclusive to her, so it's irrelevant)

 

now, is this perfect? hardly, and you bet your Vay hek loving tush that i can easily do better with any other frame(speaking of baruuk.) but this setup makes hysteria powerful and more importantly....USEABLE without it needing some godly buff to make it good. Range being a problem? hysterical assault is a free 50m teleport while in hysteria...i can't FATHOM why anyone wants to replace ripline with this because then it'll cost energy.

pretty much any star chart enemy and sortie enemy is eaten alive by this(since range is no longer an issue.) and any target that doesn't die in seconds can be killed using whatever primary you have(i like sybaris prime.)

 

Now is hysteria outright strong? HEK NO! I love this frame to pieces and back again but i know darn well that hysteria is outclassed by all the other channeled melee AND pretty much every other melee....BUT. BUT! the changes to status procs(viral especially) really helped make hysteria have something(even though i didn't even change my build once those changes dropped.) Hysteria isn't useless. it's moderately good.

it's just that people need to stop using level 200 enemies as a benchmark test to state whether a weapon is good or not, since until Steel path, that level of enemy required a good hour or two in endless missions to actually get to. notably when a good majority aren't going to run an endless mission that long every time they can. I sure don't( I will from time to time, but that's when i just want to just go and play a mindless session before doing something else AND when i literally have nothing else to do.)

[Ender140]

6 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

I have already said this many times, so I will just repeat myself: She will lose more / have less use than other frames with her ability. Literally pick any meta frame, sweep their worst ability with Warcry and then compare them to Valkyr with Roar, Eclipse, RB, whatever. Even if they lose tankiness, I'm pretty confident that won't affect them much. Frames like Khora can already go pretty deep on endless missions by damage alone (levels of damage Valkyr won't be able to reach by getting a damage buff), not because they have high innate armor. Having hard CC also helps, which Valkyr doesn't have and won't probably sacrifice anything to have for a melee build.

Also, her 1 and 3 being bad isn't a excuse for her to not give them. Zephyr's 2 was bad, so it was added a new functionality and given out, instead of giving her 1 or 3 and losing her mobility / survival tool.

Ok but what warframe would you put warcry on?.... Excalibur? Maybe Inaros? Like what warframe can actually sacrifice one of their skills for warcry - instead of any other skill?

This skill doubles your armor. And melee attack speed. Like why would you put this on rhino when defy exist? He'll get an extra 800 armor yes. Or- hear me out. 1.5k armor. Is there any warframe outside of Excalibur and Inaros where you would put warcry instead of defy? Because with defy you can even put it on volt and he'll have 1.5k armor. Warcry works with Valkyr because of her massive amount of armor. Yes there is the attack speed aspect for melee. But if your going for melee specifically then your most likely a Valkyr, Wukong, Inaros, Excalibur or a Baruuk. And Baruuk has no use for warcry outside of attack speed. If he wanted armor he would just use defy.

Again. Valkyr isn't the only one donating skills.

[Ender140]

6 hours ago, Gurpgork said:

True, but there's not really an ability that you can add to Valkyr that will make her better than you could make a different frame by giving them Warcry. 

Yeah, you can give Valkyr an ability like Eclipse or Roar. Or you can put Warcry on Chroma instead. Then you'll have more armor than Valkyr while also having the Elemental Ward and getting an equally substantial damage boost (not that melee weapons really need a damage boost anyway). 

I think the point was more that being hard to kill is not special enough to distinguish Valkyr from other frames, and I think Inaros is kind of the poster child of why that's true. Yeah, Valkyr's hard to kill. You can make Nova hard to kill--likely even harder to kill than Valkyr)--and you'll have godlike CC while you're at it. 

It's just not good enough of a thing to carve out a niche for her, especially considering how much stuff some newer frames have. Like take the aforementioned Gauss for example. He has everything that Valkyr has to offer, and then on top of that, has a better gap closer, better energy economy, hard CC, armor stripping, and AoE damage. There's just nothing you can add to Valkyr with the Helminth that will even remotely compete with that. 

I'm sorry what? Can you list warframes that can benefit from warcry more than defy or roar? This is a melee specific skill. I can only think of Excalibur and Inaros. Keep in mind this skill doubles your armor. So this only works if you already have a decent amount of armor in the first place.

You want hard CC give her radiant blind. You want armor stripping? Like slash actually cares about armor? But if u still want armor stripping for some reason, give her seeking shuriken.

Yes I want her to get a rework but not because she's weak. But because she feels like an Inaros with anger issues. She's irrelevant because her niche can be done better by Wukong and Inaros. Yes her kit is similar to Excalibur. But Excalibur heavily focuses on damage and not survivability. While Valkyr is in the other side of the spectrum.

The only real change she needs is on her 1 and her 4. Her passive is already handy. Her 1 is too narrow for a cc ability and range is too short while the casting is too long as a mobility skill. Her 4 heals her, has a huge amount of crit chance, but it's status and range is garbage. Also that energy reduction increase over time is aids. I guess DE wants it as a balancing mechanic because she's invulnerable while in this mode; but honestly I think they should just remove invulnerabllity and that energy reduction increase. Her 3 will be replaced by any other skill. Like literally any skill would be better than her current 3 is atm.

[kgabor]

6 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

Ok but what warframe would you put warcry on?.... Excalibur? Maybe Inaros? Like what warframe can actually sacrifice one of their skills for warcry - instead of any other skill?

This skill doubles your armor. And melee attack speed. Like why would you put this on rhino when defy exist? He'll get an extra 800 armor yes. Or- hear me out. 1.5k armor. Is there any warframe outside of Excalibur and Inaros where you would put warcry instead of defy? Because with defy you can even put it on volt and he'll have 1.5k armor. Warcry works with Valkyr because of her massive amount of armor. Yes there is the attack speed aspect for melee. But if your going for melee specifically then your most likely a Valkyr, Wukong, Inaros, Excalibur or a Baruuk. And Baruuk has no use for warcry outside of attack speed. If he wanted armor he would just use defy.

Again. Valkyr isn't the only one donating skills.

You're only forgetting with the Eternal War augment, War Cry can be made into basically a permanent buff with no energy cost, which in some cases makes it an overall better buff than Wukong's Defy.

Niche builds, like finisher builds using single daggers (rip Covert Lethality) Skiajati can also make use of a permanent attack speed boost. (though already fast, but Primed Fury can be replaced with another mod increasing damage, scaling on combos or finisher damage, which can lead to ridiculous results, considering the overpowered state of melee in Warframe)

In Skiajati's case, armor isn't even a factor, but overall it's true, War Cry is a niche buff.

[Ender140]

Just now, kgabor said:

You're only forgetting with the Eternal War augment, War Cry can be made into basically a permanent buff with no energy cost, which in some cases makes it an overall better buff than Wukong's Defy.

Niche builds, like finisher builds using single daggers (rip Covert Lethality) Skiajati can also make use of a permanent attack speed boost. (though already fast, but Primed Fury can be replaced with another mod increasing damage, scaling on combos or finisher damage, which can lead to ridiculous results, considering the overpowered state of melee in Warframe)

In Skiajati's case, armor isn't even a factor, but overall it's true, War Cry is a niche buff.

Ok but again.... on what warframe would you put this on?...

[kgabor]

Just now, Ender140 said:

Ok but again.... on what warframe would you put this on?...

Umbra, Equinox, Banshee can make use of it.

For clarity, i consider this more of a QoL thing as you don't need to recast it all the time and it helps with your energy economy, since it's basically a free buff.

[Ender140]

1 minute ago, kgabor said:

Umbra, Equinox, Banshee can make use of it.

For clarity, i consider this more of a QoL thing as you don't need to recast it all the time and it helps with your energy economy, since it's basically a free buff.

I know why Umbra would benefit from warcry. But why Equinox and Banshee?

[kgabor]

8 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

I know why Umbra would benefit from warcry. But why Equinox and Banshee?

Faster finishers. (in case the melee build doesn't use attack speed mods)

Also while not using Skiajati, they can make use of the permanent armor buff with other niche builds. (though i'm not using any of these, but pretty sure there are some people building them for armor, heard Banshee got an armor buff some time ago, though this doesn't affect me, i always used the frame as a glass cannon)

It also has other benefits, like not breaking Skiajati's stealth upon recast as you don't need to recast it, which might also add some possible niche uses in the future with other combinations involving similar mechanics.

[Ender140]

3 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Faster finishers. (in case the melee build doesn't use attack speed mods)

Also while not using Skiajati, they can make use of the permanent armor buff with other niche builds. (though i'm not using any of these, but pretty sure there are some people building them for armor, heard Banshee got an armor buff some time ago, though this doesn't affect me, i always used the frame as a glass cannon)

Banshee didn't get an armor buff. Also if your doing this for finishers then give Valkyr radial blind and the augment radial finish. And if people will use warcry for a attack speed melee niche. Why wouldn't they just go with Volt? Give him Defy and he'll have more of an armor than a Frost, or a Rhino, or a (insert warframe with decent armor here) with Warcry.

[kgabor]

1 minute ago, Ender140 said:

Banshee didn't get an armor buff. Also if your doing this for finishers then give Valkyr radial blind and the augment radial finish. And if people will use warcry for a attack speed melee niche. Why wouldn't they just go with Volt? Give him Defy and he'll have more of an armor than a Frost, or a Rhino, or a (insert warframe with decent armor here) with Warcry.

Inaros can probably make the best use of it, but that wasn't my point.

The sustainability of the ability with the augment is what makes it worth using over other abilities with a melee focused build.

[Ender140]

Just now, kgabor said:

Inaros can probably make the best use of it, but that wasn't my point.

The sustainability of the ability with the augment is what makes it worth using over other abilities with a melee focused build.

Yes... so Inaros and Umbra like I said on previous points... what other warframes are melee focused? Atlas perhaps... so thats 3 warframes that can use warcry? Are there any other warframes that would benefit from warcry?

[kgabor]

5 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

Yes... so Inaros and Umbra like I said on previous points... what other warframes are melee focused? Atlas perhaps... so thats 3 warframes that can use warcry? Are there any other warframes that would benefit from warcry?

Depends, there are a multitude of frame-melee-mod combinations in Warframe.

We never know when a new niche use makes this the new op thing.

Besides a permanent melee speed-armor buff is hardly useless on any frame.

[Ender140]

6 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Depends, there are a multitude of frame-melee-mod combinations in Warframe.

We never know when a new niche use makes this the new op thing.

Besides a permanent melee speed-armor buff is hardly useless on any frame.

True but it's a niche. Which certain Warframes do a lot better. Which means warcry will only really be used on thos specific Warframes. You mentioned the Augments. Those warframes also have their own augments. Is it worth sacrificing 2 mods for 2 niche mods? Idk. Up to them I guess.

[Andele3025]

On 2020-08-13 at 6:16 PM, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Ripline has no uses. This has been said a lot of times already and won't go into it. It's just a "parkour complement". Deals negligible damage, clunky physics, mobility powercreeped by the cost free Spoiler mode. This ability clearly doesn’t make her relevant.

Ignoring how wrong the line about valkyr never being a meta frame since she got hit with the heavy cowardice nerfhammer with the second dream patch to make hysteria cost rise with duration (instead of something that makes sense like 1 energy per 5s spent not killing or even better made into something actually berserkery like Nier A2 berserk mode), Riplines issues only exist in the fact that it has a stupid momentum kill (which btw, got stealth buffed/nerfed/weakened in the helmy patch to keep more momentum from before ripline cast as you can now actually get some extra distance even when chill proc walking and get around 4m more when block gliding with ripline cast mid bullet jump) and lacking one on the enemy.

Tho id also love for it to have a double jump reset on cast.

[kgabor]

56 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

True but it's a niche. Which certain Warframes do a lot better. Which means warcry will only really be used on thos specific Warframes. You mentioned the Augments. Those warframes also have their own augments. Is it worth sacrificing 2 mods for 2 niche mods? Idk. Up to them I guess.

Depends on the frame.

An Atterax meme Loki f.ex. isn't that mod heavy by default and while a direct damage buff could improve it, while used with a mod like Quick Thinking, a melee speed buff and sustainable energy would be preferable to other options as Atterax is overkill as is for the majority of in game content.

[Raikh]

Isn't that largely a design issue with Valkyr, rather than with her donatign Warcry specifically.

If a Warframe has only 1 defining and desirable ability that is a serious issue for the frame anyway. I can absolutely understand the desire to rather have her donate her 1 or 3 to keep that one potentially desirable part about her but at the same time I'd also rather have exciting abilities to pick from instead of picking up the garbage abilities from a dozen broken frames.

Its already rather sad that we have worthless abilities like Shock on that list and if every frame donated their most redundant ability we mgiht as well not have the system at all.

It might be a good opportunity to take a hard look at a whole bunch of frames when that system launches and see which frames are enitrely based on a single ability that isnt even their ultimate and work towards fixing those frames.

This also applies inr everse where some frames have that one compeleley dead ability they will absolutely replace at any given point, making the system a rather significant straight buff rather than an interesting trade-off.

[Ender140]

12 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Depends on the frame.

An Atterax meme Loki f.ex. isn't that mod heavy by default and while a direct damage buff could improve it, while used with a mod like Quick Thinking, a melee speed buff and sustainable energy would be preferable to other options as Atterax is overkill as is for the majority of in game content.

That sounds like the old atterax. Could you clarify a bit?

[kgabor]

2 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

That sounds like the old atterax. Could you clarify a bit?

I didn't use it in a long time.

I'm guessing you refer to the range nerfs to high range melees, like whips and polearms.

Or some other change?

[Ender140]

3 minutes ago, kgabor said:

I didn't use it in a long time.

I'm guessing you refer to the range nerfs to high range melees, like whips and polearms.

Or some other change?

Well meme memeing strike was nerfed. So I guess that's a thing. Reach mods were reworked. CO also reworked. Channeling is removed

[kgabor]

5 minutes ago, Ender140 said:

Well meme memeing strike was nerfed. So I guess that's a thing. Reach mods were reworked. CO also reworked. Channeling is removed

Thanks, i didn't know of some of these, i've been taking some breaks from Warframe sometimes.

[Xepthrichros]

She's basically wolverine. 

You can use her for cosframe. 

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

hace 8 horas, Ender140 dijo:

 

The thing is not which frames can equip it. It's more of out of the frames than make use of it (frames, as I assure you there will be several, most already mentioned here and on another threads), what has Valkyr going for her over them that makes her still relevant if they do equip it (as I think you mentioned, we assume they are capable of taking a hit, it's not some Banshee going face first against enemies. And they don't necessarily need to have 95% DR's of a lot of armor. Just look ar Revenant, the guy can ignore any defense mods and still be pretty much untouchable unless one screws up hard. Or a range duration Frost, than can go a whole mission without taking a hit as long as he casts Avalanche. He could go melee without any risk at all. Or Octavia, via her general use, as long as she doesn't put herself between her 1 and an enemy).

Most of the time it's only extra damage or increased speed, while on most cases the other frames have equal capabilities or cover the most important part (damage, either by having a buff, debuff, armor strips...) and bring more things to the table, except for Inaros and Loki maybe (basically frames with bland kits or with only 2 good abilities). Probably the only cases this may not be true is on scenarios where said frame is heavily countered (Mag vs Infesteds, via toxin oneshots f.e.) or can't make use of their abilities (same example, disruptors or eximus spam, or a heavility focused CC frame against a CC immune enemy). 

"But X wouldn't have much use for WC within their standard use". Nothing is stopping them either, and if they satisfy the condition mentioned on the first paragraph, the first line of the previous one will most likely apply, putting Valkyr on a second plane. "But it's not like everyone will go with Warcry". True, but very likely also true that she will become powercreeped and lose the only use she somewhat still has as her own. "But X frame really does not have any use for WC within Y activity, there's something that's objectively 100% better". Then Valkyr can't possibly be relevant to begin with, given her core functionality that's now been improved has no use or she tries to imitate a frame whose base functionality is exactly what she tries to do and can improve it. Think ESO or Eidolons. Of course this last case is understandable, this thread was born because Valkyr is going to lose her only use, which shouldn't happen to others either.

 

hace 8 horas, Andele3025 dijo:

Ignoring how wrong the line about valkyr never being a meta frame

Even tho this is not what the thread is about (but as I put it I understand you bring it up), I would like to know why it's wrong. This is genuine, as maybe I have missed on some decent use she might have that could have made her meta somewhere. Ever since I have been playing it has always been the same frames over and over again, doesn't matter if it's an endurance, event, whatever. Last time I recall her be truly meta was when the Wolf was around and people dusted her off, given the absurd ability-CC immune wall of HP he was, but I might have missed something.

And yes I agree with what you said about Ripline, it's why I still think it has potential and wouldn't want it gone if she was to get a rework, but even if it worked properly I still find it very lacking on the damage department. A combo system like Slash Dash and Landslide, yet the poorest damage. More wasted potential.

 

hace 8 horas, Raikh dijo:

 

Spot on imo, specially what you said in the second paragraph. I wouldn't mind her giving WC if she had other (truly) useful things on her kit, but they are either bootleg or bested by other frames because it's not her role. If they were to finally take a look at her while still giving out WC it would be good too, but what's most likely to happen is that they give it out and she turns into wall-fodder for God knows how much time, thing that should be avoided.

 

hace 7 horas, Xepthrichros dijo:

She's basically wolverine. 

You can use her for cosframe. 

Yeah, at least she will be useful for...

Spoiler

Guess she atleast has the failed experiment going for her or something.

[Raikh]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)HynvictSanngRa:

Spot on imo, specially what you said in the second paragraph. I wouldn't mind her giving WC if she had other (truly) useful things on her kit, but they are either bootleg or bested by other frames because it's not her role. If they were to finally take a look at her while still giving out WC it would be good too, but what's most likely to happen is that they give it out and she turns into wall-fodder for God knows how much time, thing that should be avoided.

Immediately after the patch she will likely turn into Helminth fodder unless we find some interaction for Hysteria or a specific ability combination including Warcry that is ideal on Valkyr herself. Not sure if Hysteria's dmg is still worth a dime after they butchered all exlated melees but if it was Larva on her mgiht be really really good as Hysteria's main issue was always range/room coverage.

The potentially good thing about letting her donmate Warcry and leaving ehr in the dust a bit, is that it gives a really storng argument for a rework. If DE gives in now and hands out Ripline or w/e, they can argue that she is still unique and that Warcry is desirable and that she is kinda fine. If however her usage statistics actually crash because Warcry was the only thing going for her and its now on every melee frame in the game, then their hand will likely be forced to do something about it.

The system is both interesting ( an broken, but so is the game, can hardly be mad anymore) and an opportunity. Because it will reveal some ugly truths about a lot of frames in case they give up their core ability in terms of usefulness.

The only concern I really have there is that they might avoid the confrontation, retroactively remove all significant abilities and sacrifice another system to their volatility and continue glueing poorly implemented games as content islands onto their game instead.