Valkyr is going to become irrelevant

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, Raikh сказал:

The potentially good thing about letting her donmate Warcry and leaving ehr in the dust a bit, is that it gives a really storng argument for a rework. If DE gives in now and hands out Ripline or w/e, they can argue that she is still unique and that Warcry is desirable and that she is kinda fine. If however her usage statistics actually crash because Warcry was the only thing going for her and its now on every melee frame in the game, then their hand will likely be forced to do something about it.

The system is both interesting ( an broken, but so is the game, can hardly be mad anymore) and an opportunity. Because it will reveal some ugly truths about a lot of frames in case they give up their core ability in terms of usefulness.

I had such hopes when melee reworks were in progress.

[kgabor]

Speaking of 95% dr-s, that's exactly what Valkyr needs in Hysteria.

And a second passive giving Rage/Hunter Adrenaline as an innate effect.

Here, Valkyr is relevant again.

Other than the Ripline changes, making Eternal War an innate effect instead of an augment and giving Paralysis a little better range and duration would fix most problems about the frame.

Another possible improvement would be giving Valkyr another signature melee with/or adding to the Venka/Prime a gimmick that makes mobs target Valkyr when held. (it could be a thing that only affects Valkyr as to not ruin the weapon for everyone else)

Edit: Inb4 i know the taunt mod exists for sword and shield type weapons, but this would need a bigger range to be useful.

[Andele3025]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Even tho this is not what the thread is about (but as I put it I understand you bring it up), I would like to know why it's wrong. This is genuine, as maybe I have missed on some decent use she might have that could have made her meta somewhere. Ever since I have been playing it has always been the same frames over and over again, doesn't matter if it's an endurance, event, whatever. Last time I recall her be truly meta was when the Wolf was around and people dusted her off, given the absurd ability-CC immune wall of HP he was, but I might have missed something.

The very reason why valkyr has the S#&$ty cowardice encouraging version of her 4 was because she was the meta pre release of second dream (well one of its followup patches).
Instead of 4 being redesigned to induce more risk reward, it got turned into the "no matter if you kill or not drain increases with time and you can los cheese the explode, so just run through hallways while immune ignoring enemies to huddle in a room and toggle on-off before doing again" ability when not used for quick lifesteal.

29 minutes ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

And yes I agree with what you said about Ripline, it's why I still think it has potential and wouldn't want it gone if she was to get a rework, but even if it worked properly I still find it very lacking on the damage department. A combo system like Slash Dash and Landslide, yet the poorest damage. More wasted potential.

Combo system is there for efficiency. Even if you go absolute max strength warcry only, its still mega cheap to repeat cast due to combo, damage isnt relevant and honestly could even be without it yet still serve its use if its pull strengths+momentum kill were swapped.

[Andele3025]

2 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Speaking of 95% dr-s, that's exactly what Valkyr needs in Hysteria.

And a second passive giving Rage/Hunter Adrenaline as an innate effect.

Here, Valkyr is relevant again.

Nah, just let her have Nier A2 berserk mode as hysteria cost instead of enery. Invul but lose hp, if you take damage you lose more hp, you can lifesteal to compensate and slightly reduce, kill to refresh to base drain.

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, Andele3025 сказал:

Nah, just let her have Nier A2 berserk mode as hysteria cost instead of enery. Invul but lose hp, if you take damage you lose more hp, you can lifesteal to compensate and slightly reduce, kill to refresh to base drain.

I suggested similar aproach, but with her entire energy economy replaced by a special counter. I'll just copy paste it from my recent post:

 

Спойлер

 

1)Ripline ideas:

a)Change behavior on enemies to something similar to Ash teleport, but in reverse - Valk pull the enemy toward sherself and punch them away

b) Make it affect multiple enemies at once, steal their armor for Valk's benefits

c) Completly replace with new ability - pounching slash: Valk dashes towards enemy and ponche it on the ground with one handed slash of her claw. Could be used to close the gap between mobs or as a cc tool.

2)Warcry should emmit aura that spread buffs on allies and slow down enemies, the closer they get to you the slower they become. Ability is toggle(see below why)

3)Paralisys should be replaced with something diffrent.

4) Hysterya should get a new stance with wide and aggressive attacks, remove god mode and integrage hysterycal assault by default; lower crazy energy drain(since she got no energy) and broken 'stored damage' mechanic.

5) Remove shields and energy pull, increse her base health by 150 and introduce wrath mechanic. Its a counter with 3 stages. Build it up by taking damage and killing enemies in melee. And here's the interesting part: with each new counter stage Valk recive health regen, armor and small movement speed increse, but all her abilties drains the counter and it slowly depletes over time. Want to sustain the buffs and actively use your skills? Then go on the frontline, take all the damage you can and leave no survivors

Intention here is to follow the theme of a broken besrerk frame tapping to the alternative energy sourse and tossing herself into the carnage with no consern about her own well being.

 

 

[Ender140]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

The thing is not which frames can equip it. It's more of out of the frames than make use of it (frames, as I assure you there will be several, most already mentioned here and on another threads), what has Valkyr going for her over them that makes her still relevant if they do equip it (as I think you mentioned, we assume they are capable of taking a hit, it's not some Banshee going face first against enemies. And they don't necessarily need to have 95% DR's of a lot of armor. Just look ar Revenant, the guy can ignore any defense mods and still be pretty much untouchable unless one screws up hard. Or a range duration Frost, than can go a whole mission without taking a hit as long as he casts Avalanche. He could go melee without any risk at all. Or Octavia, via her general use, as long as she doesn't put herself between her 1 and an enemy).

Most of the time it's only extra damage or increased speed, while on most cases the other frames have equal capabilities or cover the most important part (damage, either by having a buff, debuff, armor strips...) and bring more things to the table, except for Inaros and Loki maybe (basically frames with bland kits or with only 2 good abilities). Probably the only cases this may not be true is on scenarios where said frame is heavily countered (Mag vs Infesteds, via toxin oneshots f.e.) or can't make use of their abilities (same example, disruptors or eximus spam, or a heavility focused CC frame against a CC immune enemy). 

"But X wouldn't have much use for WC within their standard use". Nothing is stopping them either, and if they satisfy the condition mentioned on the first paragraph, the first line of the previous one will most likely apply, putting Valkyr on a second plane. "But it's not like everyone will go with Warcry". True, but very likely also true that she will become powercreeped and lose the only use she somewhat still has as her own. "But X frame really does not have any use for WC within Y activity, there's something that's objectively 100% better". Then Valkyr can't possibly be relevant to begin with, given her core functionality that's now been improved has no use or she tries to imitate a frame whose base functionality is exactly what she tries to do and can improve it. Think ESO or Eidolons. Of course this last case is understandable, this thread was born because Valkyr is going to lose her only use, which shouldn't happen to others.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

True. But again; she can also replace one of her abilities now. And also again, like Excalibur. Her 1 is useless, her 2 is the only real reason to user her. Her 3 just exist. And her exalted weapon is overshadowed by regular weaponry.

My problem here is that it feels like you are against giving the Helminth Chair a good skill from Valkyr. What I want is a rework for her. Instead of donating ripline.

See my point of view? I don't want this to be another mediocre update thats just there like Steel Path is. Atleast now when this update comes Valkyr can now be tankier, or do even more damage. Considering she has 3 useless skills and you can replace 1 of the skills. She has something unique in the stat department. But her real niche is a melee warframe. A tanky blender of a warframe. 

And because her niche is a tanky melee blender, her 2 is also for that specific niche. You can get attack speed yes. But if your going to put it on someone like loki, why would you bother doing that instead of a Volt with Defy. If it's a niche, certain warframes can do it better. And if you waste that on something that isn't made for that niche, then you just wasted your resources.

Lets put the warframes that can Use warcry properly.

Inaros: Is Tanky with decent armor. Can use a better 3 as well. This means he gets extra tankiness and a dps boost with melee

Atlas: Is tanky and a bit melee focused. Same case with Inaros. Except your most likely to replace his wall.

Excalibur: The OG melee frame. His armor isn't that impressive but he does have a decent amount of armor as Umbra. Can use even more Tankiness and even more DPS which is why warcry is really good for him.

Skills that can be used on Valkyr:

Roar: Damage

Elemental Ward: More Tankiness. Which I mean you really don't have to.

Defy: Even more armor for reasons unknown.

Radial Blind: Now you are a tankier Excalibur. Lets be real Exalted Blade is not in the best spot atm.

 

Now using Warcry for the attack speed. Again, Volt. It's a niche skill. Why bother using Warcry for a niche that a frame can do better? Volt can give movement speed, attack speed, reload speed I think. And you can replace his shield with defy to make Warcry's niche but even better. 

Another problem is the augment.

Inaros sure. It's not like he actually uses any of his skills. Then again you can argue because he doesn't actually use his skills but just for his hp, your wasting a mod space that could've been use for even more hp.

Atlas I guess also has a bit of space for the augment. Since he uses melee a lot of the time the augment might actually work for him.

Excalibur is in a tough spot. In one hand, if your using Excalibur then you must really like using his Exalted Blade which CAN be powerful if you invest in it heavily. In the other hand, it needs an augment just to function properly. Now you have another augment that needs mod space. Is Excalibur going be still useful at that point? Because replacing a mod space might mean reducing power strength, efficiency, duration or durability. Having 2 augments on Excalibur might ruin his practicality.

The problem here isn't Warcry being given away. Even tho it's a good skill, it's niche can be easily replicated by something thats not even trying to. Valkyr needs a rework. Exalted melee in general needs a buff. And augments are just bandage mods that DE refuses to fix even tho they easily can.

[gabuchan]

I'm fine with giving away Warcry, so long as they re-work the rest of her kit to make her worth keeping around.

[Terrahero]

3 hours ago, gabuchan said:

I'm fine with giving away Warcry, so long as they re-work the rest of her kit to make her worth keeping around.

Better they don't give away Warcry so Valkyr doesn't lose her identity. Then rework her so whichever skill got donated is actually good as well. Rather than make her redundant and then hope they rework her. Valkyr has been waiting on a rework for years and we got no evidence it's even being considered right now.

[NoLazyShadow]

Только что, Terrahero сказал:

Better they don't give away Warcry so Valkyr doesn't lose her identity. Then rework her so whichever skill got donated is actually good as well. Rather than make her redundant and then hope they rework her. Valkyr has been waiting on a rework for years and we got no evidence it's even being considered right now.

And they seemenly forgot about her second delux

[Ender140]

6 minutes ago, Terrahero said:

Better they don't give away Warcry so Valkyr doesn't lose her identity. Then rework her so whichever skill got donated is actually good as well. Rather than make her redundant and then hope they rework her. Valkyr has been waiting on a rework for years and we got no evidence it's even being considered right now.

Except the update is coming on the 25th. Are you suggesting that we get ripline instead of an actual useful skill? You recommending we get Paralysis instead?

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

hace 20 horas, Raikh dijo:

 

What you say on the first paragraph will very likely be true, but I doubt there will be any combination that redeems her as probably the only boost Valkyr will see from this system is basically either more damage or mobility to have a decent gap close, nothing mindblowing. Abilities like Larva would help her kill faster, but it will probably just not be viable given she will either sacrifice range to keep Hysteria up / have more Warcry duration or run out of energy between it's high cost and Larva casts.

What you say on the second paragraph is what I suppose would ease the mind of those who care about Valkyr's state, but I personally prefer to base myself on what is, that she's giving Warcry without any notice of her being reworked / tweaked, so as long as this situation lasts I would rather her to not give it out, and neither would I prefer her to be on a deprecated state for God knows how much time until they decide to finally take a look at her.

 

hace 20 horas, Andele3025 dijo:

 

Ah yes, I was aware of that, but if I didn't make that clarification I understand that line is false. Now, outside of that, I think it might be true.

And, in my opinion, if Ripline has a combo system that also increases damage but that damage is so low it has no real use (which right now doesn't, in that I agree) then the ability should have to either have it removed and be cheaper, have some other use, or actually make use of the damage, since if we use it as an enemy gap closer (once it's behaviour is fixed as you say) and as a mobility ability solely then it's basically Teleport but doesn't need a target to be used. And Teleport at least also opens to finishers.

 

hace 18 horas, Ender140 dijo:

My problem here is that it feels like you are against giving the Helminth Chair a (the) good skill from Valkyr. What I want is a rework for her. Instead of donating ripline.

It's the point of the whole thread. It's why it came to exist, and the idea reinforced on the last paragraph of the first post. I think we all have nothing against a rework for her. I'm not gonna go into which frames could use or couldn't or any of that, since we already talked about that and we cannot reach a conclusion, but I think I now understand why would you want Warcry given. But come to think about this, yes getting Warcry out would be one less good ability to have, but that has already been done with a lot of frames. Frost didn't give his globe so his niche wouldn't be killed, he gave Ice Wave. Loki didnt give Invisibility, he gave Decoy without any tweaks at all. Nekros didn't give his Desecrate, but Terrify instead, etc. Admitedly, having Warcry on all frames isn't as gamebreaking as having these, but what I mean is, there are already bad abilities being given out that preserve their respective frames uses. Having Warcry removed wouldn't be the end of the world, given Eclipse, Roar, Smite, Breach Surge, Firewalker, Defy, Larva, Pillage, Rest, Petrify, Shuriken, Radial Blind... are also being given out, which are worth getting and most don't leave their respective warframe without use, or don't do so at all.

And if you notice, between all the abilities being given out, there isn't a single one that's mobilty based (only Firewalker and Molt give some speed). So getting Ripline in there would add a bit more of diversity, being Ripline mostly used for traversal given it's insignificant damage (given Warcry will only give more DPS to other frames at the end of the day, but so does Roar, that's why I said there would be more variety). If they really want to go overboard, they could even make it's range static, so every frame could have a somewhat nice and cheap 75m mobility skill. There were already some people asking for an universal Ripline, so I suppose this would please them too. And if we compare the two abilities, Ripline is the least "signature" ability of Valkyr, given it was literally copy pasted to Itzal with a minor animation change. The only other problem this would create is some members of the community trying to troll others by pulling them, as other user mentioned (sorry, I forgot the name), but this could be easily fixed by removing the almost useless aspect of being able to pull allies.

Of couse, Warcry is also the only AS buffing ability, but since you mentioned bad abilities being given to the system, I think Volt giving Speed would minimally affect his usage, since being fast is not the meta use he sees, he could be faster than any other frame / equally as fast (except for Gauss maybe) by fitting Firewalker if that's what one wants to use him for, and he would still be necessary on places he sees frequent use like Eidolons / ESO, since Speed it's not why he's useful on those places. It would in some way be even more fitting than giving his Electrocute, since he's the electricity frame, and aside from Speed feeling less "electric" than his other abilties, it's literally a Disruption modifier, so one could say it's less "signature".

Also, just to reply to your latest comment, apart from Paralysis being only useful on frames that can build range + strength and have a decent amount of shields, and even then, it also feels somewhat signature of the berserker farme to hurt herself, along the scream. So that, along having other probably better AoE damage abilities like Breach Surge, would probably just make it more appropiate to give Ripline out.

Finally, it's not like this system would be set in stone and then made immutable. For now, until they rework her, they could give Ripline out so her niche doesn't dissapear completely, and when they do give her a rework, then give out Warcry, or whatever other interesting ability she would get (supposing she doesn't remain the same tanky AS frame but with some glitter on top). If people really want Warcry, then DE would have even more reasons to rework her so she gets more uses and Warcry feels less impactful to give. This is being a little manipulative, but I think the outcome is a little better than just kick all Valkyr mains in the places and leave them like that for an undefined amount of time.

 

hace 5 horas, gabuchan dijo:

I'm fine with giving away Warcry, so long as they re-work the rest of her kit to make her worth keeping around.

You have already been replied, but I personally would prefer if it was the other way around. First she gets reworked, and then she gives out Warcry, or if she gets a new more useful and not "signature" ability, then that one. You may have already seen me comment this, but I think it would be beneficial for everyone except for very power hungry people or something.

[Orakan]

On 2020-08-13 at 7:16 PM, (PS4)HynvictSanngRa said:

Unless one enjoys the frame itself.

This post is a bit ranty and has many things all over the place, so be warned. Tl:dwtr is the last paragraph.

Even though a lot of people were asking DE to make Ripline universal they have chosen to give out Warcry. Great. I would want to point out why I think this is a great mistake.

So first of all, Valkyr has never been near a meta frame, anywhere, since the nerf. Right now, and before yesterday, all her abilities are / were greatly outmatched (there will always be someone who says otherwise, but it's honestly how I feel), but right now she's been literally ripped of the only thing she still had, and soon will have no other use than to be digested within the wall along the mastery points she gives.

Ripline has no uses. This has been said a lot of times already and won't go into it. It's just a "parkour complement". Deals negligible damage, clunky physics, mobility powercreeped by the cost free Spoiler mode. This ability clearly doesn’t make her relevant.

Paralysis is a subpar ability at best. Unreliable to open to finishers, unreliable augment given it relies on base functionality, and subpar damage given Valkyr has a small amount of shields she still wastes per-level upgrades on increasing somehow. Right now it's only purpose resides solely on low levels, and it's by no means exceptional. This ability doesn’t make her relevant either.

Hysteria had power, was a good ability, but with time everything has been ripped off from it. Starting with the cost nerf, somewhat justified, extremely limiting, and with time the reason it came to exist becoming imitable. Then it was given a subpar augment hardly justifiable when compared to the ones from other exalted weapons that even had to be added a nowhere-mentioned aspect to fix it's clunky functionality. "She has enough damage and it's fun", and it is indeed, even if it looks like a bandaid of what Ripline wasn't able to do shoved onto the ability as an augment.
But then came Baruuk, literally copy pasting Hysteria's stats, improving it, and getting an augment that is actually useful and with which I bet people are having more fun power tripping, controlled by the Restraint that a pair of MOAs or Lancers can totally erase within seconds. And with melee 2.9 Hysteria can't even match the levels of damage some normal weapons that don't cost 15/s can pull off, so right now it just shines because of it’s intermittent invincibility and healing.
Of course one can use the other augment and gain more damage against normal enemies and old bosses that haven’t been “updated” yet, that still didn’t make her more relevant in any way, and then have the only ability in the game with a cooldown outside ESO. Looks like they had to balance the fun Hysterical Assault brought.
It’s her ultimate, she is known for it, but I still haven’t seen it make her relevant other than when the Wolf was around, and mostly because IIRC back then current melee version wasn’t around and he was immune to statuses and most abilties. The tankiness it gave her was made irrelevant the moment Inaros was released.

And with all this, Valkyr still had her place. But now that everyone can have Warcry, what's her purpose? Yes, she can get other good abilities too from other frames, but then what's her self worth? Is she supposed to be only viable within her designed role by relying on other frame's better abilities? And even with all this, I'm still not confident she will regain any relevance, given frames like Gauss are almost an upgrade to EW Valkyr outside very few specifics, and Baruuk with Warcry will wipe the floor with everything whereas Hysteria, even with upgraded damage from Roar or Eclipse, will still only be useful for the same given most other melee weapons will do more damage along it's remaining limitations.
There are also some other "minor" implications, like for example that everyone will now probably "have a voice" when originally it was only Valkyr due to her lore, making it even more incomprehensible.

Conclusion, don't give Warcry out, nor Paralysis given I don't think anyone wants it outside Hildryn shenaningans or whatever.
What I suggest, pick one of the many ideas you have been given through the years, improve Ripline as you did with Airburst and the likes (there are many very simple but effective additions, doesn’t need to be a mini-rework) , and make Ripline be the subsumed ability to be given. People that wanted it are now happy and have an abillity that's now also useful, Valkyr is improved, and she conserves the only niche she has along her uniqueness. You already did this with Itzal, same animations and everything, I don’t see how Ripline is so “signature” it can’t be given away.
Or, if you prefer Warcry to be the ability to be given, just make Warcry a Helminth ability, give a legendary core to everyone that had her in their inventory, and delete her from the game, given her files take space. It's probably what will be left of her at this rate anyways.

I kinda agreed with you but to my opinion ripline should removed from the game completely (and same thing should happen on itzal's first ability too , they are basicly the same ability)
Instead of that useless before parkour 2.0 era ability there should be a complely new ability for creating a synergy between with her other abilities . Like bounce from old vauban or super jump from old excalibur , ripline should be removed from the completely . Even the hysterical assault augment can be way better first ability compare to ripline. Besides as a pull ability it is outmatched by any other pull ability such as mag's pull , nidus' larva , khora's snare. New ability should be fit to the berserk consept of the Valkry herself. For example getting damage to her health will give her more melee damage but make her more vunerable to the damage (basic berserk consept) 

But I am totally agreed with you about the warcry. Warcry shoudn't be given to the any other warframe with helminth system

[Terrahero]

3 hours ago, Ender140 said:

Except the update is coming on the 25th. Are you suggesting that we get ripline instead of an actual useful skill? You recommending we get Paralysis instead?

Yes.

There are other good abilities, there are bad abilities. The choice to get Warcry on other frames shouldn't be bought at price of relegating another frame into obsolescence. That very concern of taking a frames iconic playstyle and making it wholesale available that the donating frame loses its identity is why we don't get Desecrate from Nekros for instance, or Snowglobe from Frost.

[Orakan]

On 2020-08-15 at 10:58 AM, Ender140 said:

True but it's a niche. Which certain Warframes do a lot better. Which means warcry will only really be used on thos specific Warframes. You mentioned the Augments. Those warframes also have their own augments. Is it worth sacrificing 2 mods for 2 niche mods? Idk. Up to them I guess.

Oviously you are not doing any endurance runs . In endurance runs only viable weapon type is the melee , primaries are totally useless and secondaries are for mostly utility. So on endurance runs every warframe can get very huge benefit from eternal war. Besides on tennocon Rebecca has said we can't donate ultimate abilities or signature abilities of a warframe . Warcry is the signature ability for Valkyr because of her berserk style desing (besides it is the only usefull tool can be synergized with with hysteria and 50 percent of her kit are useless or outmatched by other warframes' smilar abilities.)

That is why warcry shound't be adding to that new system

[Ender140]

1 hour ago, Orakan said:

Oviously you are not doing any endurance runs . In endurance runs only viable weapon type is the melee , primaries are totally useless and secondaries are for mostly utility. So on endurance runs every warframe can get very huge benefit from eternal war. Besides on tennocon Rebecca has said we can't donate ultimate abilities or signature abilities of a warframe . Warcry is the signature ability for Valkyr because of her berserk style desing (besides it is the only usefull tool can be synergized with with hysteria and 50 percent of her kit are useless or outmatched by other warframes' smilar abilities.)

That is why warcry shound't be adding to that new system

I do indurance runs... thats why I know you won't be using frames like loki now are ya? What? You going to put warcry on Hydroid? On Khora? Where is your point in endurance runs? Yes melee is the only viable weapon there. Guess what? That still doesn't invalidate my point. Cuz you are still likely to use a melee specialised frame in an endurance run if you are going to use warcry. Like what exactly are you trying to point out here?

Now as Warcry being her signature ability. So is Radial Blind for Excalibur. You thought it's exalted blade? No thats just his flashiest skill. His handiest skill is his blind. Guess what? You can give that to any other frame now. I mean unless you want Excalibur to give his slash dash or his radial javelins because radial blind is really his only good skill at this point after melee rework. Now that everyone can have his blind which is way handier than warcry because 1, it's a cc, 2 it has melee damage multiplier, and 3- it opens up to finishers. You want an overkill of a damage? Add radiant finish. Which allows you to one hit most enemies that can be blinded.

Does this mean Excalibur will no longer be used? Well yea... I mean his not on the best spot either. The only reason people are still using him is because his a starter frame. And yet his still giving away the one skill that makes him special. His stats aren't even that great. His the OG melee frame yet his durability is in the meh side. So what excuse does that give Valkyr?

Unlike warcry, Blind is a more diverse skill. Which almost any warframe can use other than frames that specialises on cc. Give it to chroma. Give it to Rhino. Give it to Volt. Give it to Mesa. And they'll be able to use it. Since it's primarily a cc. And one of the best kind of cc, which is blind cc. There is also the melee bonus damage. Which essentially mean it can also do warcry's niche as a melee dps skill.

I'm convinced you don't read before you comment. Or at least you haven't noticed that Valkyr isn't the only one giving skills. Rhino is giving roar. ROAR. Which just beats warcry and blind's damage bonus. This also affects your guns. And again unlike warcry; YOU CAN GIVE TO ANY FRAME AND IT'LL BE USEFUL. DEFY. Squishy before? Squishy no more- because you get a flat out 1.5k armor. Which again; ANY FRAME CAN USE. Even Volt or Loki. Warcry is a niche skill. Like a very specific niche of melee specific frames will benefit more from warcry than other skills.

AND AGAIN. SHE NEEDS A REWORK. Because like Excalibur; she only has 1 useful skill. Her claws are just as powerful as Exalted Blade. I know because I mostly only use Excalibur. I've shifted to Valkyr after melee 3.0 because CO, Life Strike. 2 mods that are basically glued to exalted blade got nerfed. And unlike Valkyr, Excalibur doesn't have the stats to back up his reason to still be used. YET HIS STILL GIVING AWAY HIS RADIAL BLIND. Am I against that? ALSO NO. IT'S MUCH BETTER THAN GETTING SLASH DASH OR RADIAL JAVELIN.

[kgabor]

Melee weapons with Viral can also benefit more from a cheapo ability, like War Cry with Eternal War more than f.ex. Rhino's Roar as it stacks up to 325% damage faster...and that's just one aspect of its benefits.

[No_Quarter]

Valkyr is a perfect melee frame. She is super tanky, ez 90% damaage reduction with 3 Umbral mods and Warcry, invulnerability and life steal, stun for finisher, speed buff.

What is good too is that such set of stats allows for free arcane spots which I leave for Arcane Avenger and Fury making my melee weapons that much better. A simple kit, you click 2 and you just kill stuff, rebuild duration and just go ham balls deep.

I always go to her when I want to push a melee weapon and enjoy it. I put my Umbral Forma on her for triple Umbral setup and I am happy as a pig in a mud to play some long arbitrations with her.

I do not think this makes her irrelevant, you forget that she will also be able to take ability from other frames. It is a strong ability but other warframe lack that armor she has so they have to rely on other things to survive - taking up slots that she has open.

If anything, I am looking forward to see what can I use in her kit to have more fun with my melee weapons. Half of my melee weapons have build for regular use and build for Valkyr where it's just a whole new level.

[bibmobello]

43 minutes ago, No_Quarter said:

Valkyr is a perfect melee frame. She is super tanky, ez 90% damaage reduction with 3 Umbral mods and Warcry, invulnerability and life steal, stun for finisher, speed buff.

What is good too is that such set of stats allows for free arcane spots which I leave for Arcane Avenger and Fury making my melee weapons that much better. A simple kit, you click 2 and you just kill stuff, rebuild duration and just go ham balls deep.

I always go to her when I want to push a melee weapon and enjoy it. I put my Umbral Forma on her for triple Umbral setup and I am happy as a pig in a mud to play some long arbitrations with her.

I do not think this makes her irrelevant, you forget that she will also be able to take ability from other frames. It is a strong ability but other warframe lack that armor she has so they have to rely on other things to survive - taking up slots that she has open.

If anything, I am looking forward to see what can I use in her kit to have more fun with my melee weapons. Half of my melee weapons have build for regular use and build for Valkyr where it's just a whole new level.

Yes she is super tanky she can die with 2 hits from a level 160 infested.

[(PSN)HynvictSanngRa]

hace 23 minutos, No_Quarter dijo:

 

This has already been talked about somewhere in this thread. Aside from her being nowhere near a "perfect melee frame" (given that on the actual state of "balance", she has some things and other melee frames have their own, like Excalibur having a blind + melee damage boost + fast combo counter augment, and Valkyr being more baseline tanky + AS boost + innate sustain), those aspects you mention can be easily replicated by other frames, which is why she will almost surely become obsolete if they also get to be able to equip WC. The "ez 90% DR" via full umbral build is achievable as a global version (not only applied to health) by Adaptation, which almost all frames nowadays can use, and in some cases it's not even needed, either because they have innate DR on their kit, outright ignore enemy attacks (Mesmer Skin f.e.), or have ways to not be attacked at all (Octavia f.e.). Valkyr has to have some form of invulnerability and sustain given she has no way to defend herself against enemy attacks while she does her thing, whereas other frames have enough CC to make enemies have a hard time trying to damage their health that also usually serve for other more useful and less selfish uses (Equinox for example can perfectly go melee, given casting her 2 is enough to stop any enemy from retaliating), and there are other forms of healing that don't even require energy available to everyone (Some weapons, Operator arcanes, Companion mods...). The stun is as unrealible as it gets and I would dare to say it's the worst finisher opening ability in the entire game (reason why it's probably so cheap) and it rarely sees any use due to that anyways, so even tho it's there ask anyone and they will tell you it's useless. It's like saying "Loki has a clone to draw aggro and a Teleport to be mobile", yes, but really what use do those abilities have? At least the one they have is reliable. Also I don't think she even has a speed buff.

She won't become irrelevant vs frames that already have either very bland kits (Valk with Roar vs Inaros with WC f.e., there Valkyr is more useful, if we ignore Inaros team sustain which can be easily replicated), or that only have 2 good abilities as she does (same example, but vs Loki with WC, she would have the AS and boosted damage, and Loki the same AS along mass CC). But compared to already good frames, there is where she loses any use at all (same example, vs Saryn with WC instead of Molt. AS, AoE, melee damage buff via toxin lash, innate CO synergy, armor removal, Miasma, and even able to make use of Adaptation given her decent HP. Will Valkyr's Roar make up for all that? Hard doubt).

And aside from this, as I think either Terrahero or NoLazyShadow said, Warcry is a playstyle on it's own, and giving it to everyone is practically giving Valkyr's playstyle to everyone too. The only condition they have to meet is being able to take hits and recover from them, or be able to make it very hard/ impossible for the enemy to do so, and they are set. This, among other reasons, like the one Orakan mentioned:

hace 5 horas, Orakan dijo:

Besides on tennocon Rebecca has said we can't donate ultimate abilities or signature abilities of a warframe . Warcry is the signature ability for Valkyr because of her berserk style desing

That, along RipLine clearly not being her signature ability, should be enough reasons to give RL instead.

[(XBOX)MetalxPhoenix]

8 hours ago, Orakan said:

But I am totally agreed with you about the warcry. Warcry shoudn't be given to the any other warframe with helminth system

Roar is the same. They shouldn't give one of the best abilities in the game like candy. It has no place in the system. It's baffling really, that damage abilities were considered especially something like Roar which is a damage multiplier and it's what Rhino use most in high level content. So no real reason to keep using him outside of Index since now anyone can do his job and then the role said frame natively do.

Apparently, we can't have broken weapons with rivens and rolls like Nukor, Gram and Kronen. But having a totally busted Warframe is totally acceptable.

[Ender140]

10 hours ago, kgabor said:

Melee weapons with Viral can also benefit more from a cheapo ability, like War Cry with Eternal War more than f.ex. Rhino's Roar as it stacks up to 325% damage faster...and that's just one aspect of its benefits.

Or, OR. Berserker. How much stack do u really need to kill that one enemy? ARCANE STRIKE. Even in steel path slash is enough to kill everything. Also you know, roar multiplies your viral multiplier. So I guess thats a thing.

[kgabor]

2 hours ago, Ender140 said:

Or, OR. Berserker. How much stack do u really need to kill that one enemy? ARCANE STRIKE. Even in steel path slash is enough to kill everything. Also you know, roar multiplies your viral multiplier. So I guess thats a thing.

Exactly, why would you need that much damage if Slash goes through armor and Toxin through shields and it's just as fast or faster with War Cry? Especially against trash mobs. Combos also exist. Eternal War costs nothing basically.

You might need the energy spent on Roar for something else in your frame's kit that might be more efficient overall.

Roar is not the end all be all ability because different niches favor different stats.

Roar is objectively better on a nuke frame, but War Cry can be favorable above it for melee.

The arcane slots might also have a better use with something else, P/Fury, Berserker also stacks with War Cry afaik..

Or you could just mod a hammer/rapier for finishers and damage becomes almost irrelevant altogether.

[Aadi880]

Valkyr herself can take a subsumed ability you know...

Its not like warframes subsumed cannot take abilities themselves...

If I just replace paralysis with larvae I already have a much better alternative to her 3+augment and saving a mod slot.

Same for literally any other ability to replace paralysis.

Rather, I'm thinking we will see and Increase in Valkyr players because of the fact Warcry comes built in with her, and she has a bad ability that can be replaced without affecting the rest of her kit.

[Ender140]

10 minutes ago, kgabor said:

Exactly, why would you need that much damage if Slash goes through armor and Toxin through shields and it's just as fast or faster with War Cry? Especially against trash mobs. Combos also exist. Eternal War costs nothing basically.

You might need the energy spent on Roar for something else in your frame's kit that might be more efficient overall.

Roar is not the end all be all ability because different niches favor different stats.

Roar is objectively better on a nuke frame, but War Cry can be favorable above it for melee.

The arcane slots might also have a better use with something else, P/Fury, Berserker also stacks with War Cry afaik..

Or you could just mod a hammer/rapier for finishers and damage becomes almost irrelevant altogether.

Attack speed is fun, but damage is damage. One block attack from gram can one hit even steel path enemies. With something like roar, ANY hit from the gram will one hit an enemy. Yes you can remove berserker from gram and use warcry instead. Then again you used a skill slot and energy. If your using it on a frame like loki then you only get the benefit of the attack speed. If your using the augment then that's one mod space used. Either way, you lose more things than you gain.

The only real way to actually benefit from warcry is by using a dedicated melee frame. Again, augments take a mod slot; if using it is worth the space is up to the person.

Also if you want attack speed without the berserker, try arcane strike. Like what other arcanes are there worth using if your only using melee. Arcane guardian? Maybe grace? 

Also there is a problem with mostly having attack speed. Which are eximus. Yes you can stack viral on them if you want, then again, you can also just down right kill them instantly.

Warcry's benefit on a dedicated melee frame isn't just from status, but also healing return. And to make the most of healing return, you'll need more attack speed and less damage. Which blue balled Excalibur. But to make use of healing return you need to be a bit durable. Using Warcry to be replicate a melee niche on a squishy frame is inefficient. They gain nothing from it but attack speed, and they sacrificed their utility skill. Yes on some frames there would a useless skill in their arsenal- but that mostly happens on more durable warframes. Squishing warframes will most likely have their signature skill, a cc, and a utility skill, and a survival tool. Which skill will you replace for warcry?

Just to make that question easier. What squishy warframe will you put warcry on and what skill will you replace?

[Ender140]

7 minutes ago, Aadi880 said:

Valkyr herself can take a subsumed ability you know...

Its not like warframes subsumed cannot take abilities themselves...

If I just replace paralysis with larvae I already have a much better alternative to her 3+augment and saving a mod slot.

Same for literally any other ability to replace paralysis.

Rather, I'm thinking we will see and Increase in Valkyr players because of the fact Warcry comes built in with her, and she has a bad ability that can be replaced without affecting the rest of her kit.

Thank you