Hydroid Needs a Rework

[NuclearCoffeePot]

With the upcoming deluxe skin and the release of his prime trailer I think we can almost all agree that Hydroid is long overdue for a rework. His theme is cool but his abilities are under-classed, slow down gameplay, and dont all work very well mechanically. I recently made a similar post to this with a rework concept but after receiving some very interesting feedback rewrote my concept with those ideas in mind( Thanks (NSW)AzulMage) . As I believe Hydroid is in the most dire need of a rework right now i will be trying to give this thread as much exposure as possible and will be posting it on reddits r/warframe page as well. I welcome you all to give your feedback and your own ideas.

Passive: Hydroid's current passive sees no use and is not very useful- Instead I designed a passive that would promote active gameplay while providing some useful utility for the squad.

Healing Waters- Certain Abilities leave an aoe effect over whatever they touch, Hydroid and friends can enter these zones to receive status resistance and healing per second. In addition certain abilities benefit from enhanced effects when used by Hydroid

For my sake i will refer to these areas as Wet Zones

-Note-The status resistance and hps will also allow for certain abilities to receive new, more useful augments 

1st ability-Tide Sphere-  Hydroid summons Oceanic waters in a contained sphere at the target location, enemies within the zone are suspended as though floating and take damage per second while a % of projectiles from outside are blocked by the sphere

Spoiler

 

- Hold cast increases the size of the zone drastically but Reduces the block chance to 0%

Mock Numbers-

Tap Cast Size- Base diameter of 6 meters 

Hold cast triples the base diameter at max charge

This means with 200% power strength your tap cast will be 12 meters wide and the hold cast 36 meters while 250% range build will have a 15 meter base and a 45 meter max cast

Unsure on base duration but an interesting mechanic to encourage Hyroids not to spend all their time inside their Tide Sphere would be to refresh the duration and replace it with a drain per second while Hydroid is in the zone, promoting him to spend time out and enter to refresh the zone or else risk losing all his energy by hunkering down

As for damage we can make it similar to undertow and the base cast cost can be 25 for a tap cast increased to 35 or 50 for a full charge

Allies in your Tide Sphere benefit from the passive buffs

My original idea for an undertow replacement was to have the puddle act as a portal to a separate ocean themed area but as pointed out to me this would divide the gameplay between normal and unique tileset even further then with Hydroids current undertow and would be technically difficult. So in line with this idea I created Tide Sphere, a sort of place-able undertow that could be freely traveled through and provided more uses for you and your team then a budget cc.

 

2-Tidal Surge- For starters-

Spoiler

 

Tap cast causes Hydroid to amass a wall of water around him before dashing the target direction in a similar fashion to his animation in the Hydroid prime video, Recasting immediately ends tidal surge

Hold cast will cause Hydroid to perform a similar animation however he will move slower but in a far more controlled manner, allowing him to turn and freely control his directional movement

In both versions enemies that touch the wave will be sucked into it and travel with hydroid taking damage from the initial impact and a small amount every x meters covered

When cast from a wet zone Tidal Surges Size will be increased

Note-Since the tap cast travels in the direction of your cursor this can travel up or down as long as your cursor points in that direction, the hold cast however, is grounded-

Augment- Tsunami- The damage of Tidal Surge increases based on distance traveled

or

Augment-Turbulent Flow- Tidal surge is surrounded by a whirlpool that sucks enemies in from farther away

 

3- Possibly his strangest and most complex ability- Phorcys/Seastone Lantern- Hydroid summons an eerie stone lantern that has multiple unique effects and properties- 

Spoiler

 

-The lantern creates a 10 meter wide rain storm centered on its location that causes any ground touched to become a Wet Zone for his passive

-Enemies within 8 meters become pacified and lured

The lantern acts as a pickup(ie, excavator cells, mobile defense keys) thus preventing the use of primaries while held

-swapping to your primary or pressing x will drop the lantern at the location where it will persist for the remainder of its duration acting as a stationary cc/ support zone

-Dropping the lantern inside your Tide Sphere will boost the dps growth and increase the lure radius to outside the spheres radius

-Recasting lantern while looking at tide sphere immediately teleports your in hand lantern to the center of the sphere

-Recasting with an empty hand will summon another to your hand and refresh the duration of other active lanterns

-When held by hydroid the ability instead functions as a drain instead of a duration

Lantern remains held when using tidal surge 

Augment-Acid Rain- Enemies within the rain take a small amount of corrosive damage per second with a 50% status chance- lanterns placed in TideSphere will impart their corrosive damage and procs to all enemies within the zone

 

4-Reworked Kraken- Call of the Deep- Hydroid summons tentacles like his current 4 but with altered behavior and effects- 

Spoiler

 

- A base number of tentacles are summoned within the zone- However, Additional tentacles spawn from any wet zone's and can spawn outside the standard range of the call

-Tentacles also have altered behavior 

-rather then slapping enemies tentacles now grab a singular enemy and hold them aloft, crushing them with 50%/50% viral/impact damage allowing you to dispatch of them easier

-for melee weapons, striking the tentacles will cause damage to be transferred to the enemy held

Augment-Pilfering Swarm- Enemies that die while held by the Tentacles have a 100% chance to drop extra loot

 

 

 

[Rawbeard]

reworks are over. now you get to helmith abilities you don't like

[NuclearCoffeePot]

18 hours ago, Rawbeard said:

reworks are over. now you get to helmith abilities you don't like

I don't think just because we can swap abilities reworks are gonna stop, just replacing one of hydroids abilities isn't a real fix for him because it doesn't make him any more cohesive, it doesnt fix his core gameplay issues, and besides you can only replace one ability, so what would you replace on hydroid that fixes all of his problems, his clunky mobility, slow game play, ineffective damage, and inconsistent cc? And wouldn't you still want a rework to get a better ability for the helminth chrysalis, i dont see any frame seriously using tempest barrage even with its augment, its just not worth it.

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

12 minutes ago, NuclearCoffeePot said:

I don't think just because we can swap abilities reworks are gonna stop, just replacing one of hydroids abilities isn't a real fix for him because it doesn't make him any more cohesive, it doesnt fix his core gameplay issues, and besides you can only replace one ability, so what would you replace on hydroid that fixes all of his problems, his clunky mobility, slow game play, ineffective damage, and inconsistent cc? And wouldn't you still want a rework to get a better ability for the helminth chrysalis, i dont see any frame seriously using tempest barrage even with its augment, its just not worth it.

He's joking....kinda.

Real reworks have been getting more scarce. They came with prime releases for a while, but several frames that needed it went their entire prime access and deluxe releases without a second look already. 

Then, with the Helminth system many abilities that needed work were announced without any changes. I'm terrified of the thought of Helminth being used as a way to justify at least further delay reworks, but it is a very real possibility. Although I'm also terrified that the best subsumed abilities revealed are going to destroy the final thread of balance in this game - so we'll have to see where that takes us.

My only strand of hope left for reworks from from a comment (by either Rebecca or Pablo, I forget which) that they wanted to update older frames to the standards of newer frames. Whether that's actually in progress or not I don't know. Covid messed up a long of timetables so it could've been pushed back a year or two. Or, maybe it'll be next week. Who knows anymore? Lol

[AzulMage]

I kind of just wish DE would just give release even a small blurb that acknowledges they are aware there are frames that the community is asking to have a look at even if they add that they currently don't have the staff to do so. Acknowledgement is always nice and easy to do. 

I would also love of they implemented a voting system where the forum members vote on which frame they MUST use while doing their livestream. Easiest way to get them to see how underpowered frames like Hydroid and others are is to make them use them in high level content rather than the frame they wanted to use. They can't say Hydroid is fine when they are in the steel path with him and can't kill enemies or survive. 

[NuclearCoffeePot]

4 hours ago, (NSW)AzulMage said:

I kind of just wish DE would just give release even a small blurb that acknowledges they are aware there are frames that the community is asking to have a look at even if they add that they currently don't have the staff to do so. Acknowledgement is always nice and easy to do. 

I would also love of they implemented a voting system where the forum members vote on which frame they MUST use while doing their livestream. Easiest way to get them to see how underpowered frames like Hydroid and others are is to make them use them in high level content rather than the frame they wanted to use. They can't say Hydroid is fine when they are in the steel path with him and can't kill enemies or survive. 

That would be amazing, they always say they look through concepts but we never know what they have seen or even if what they are looking at is stuff the community likes. Also the idea of a vote to alter what they use and where would be great, telling reb to use hydroid in a steel path mission would be hillarious : )

[NuclearCoffeePot]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Ozymandias-13- said:

He's joking....kinda.

Real reworks have been getting more scarce. They came with prime releases for a while, but several frames that needed it went their entire prime access and deluxe releases without a second look already. 

Then, with the Helminth system many abilities that needed work were announced without any changes. I'm terrified of the thought of Helminth being used as a way to justify at least further delay reworks, but it is a very real possibility. Although I'm also terrified that the best subsumed abilities revealed are going to destroy the final thread of balance in this game - so we'll have to see where that takes us.

My only strand of hope left for reworks from from a comment (by either Rebecca or Pablo, I forget which) that they wanted to update older frames to the standards of newer frames. Whether that's actually in progress or not I don't know. Covid messed up a long of timetables so it could've been pushed back a year or two. Or, maybe it'll be next week. Who knows anymore? Lol

I feel like you are specifically refering to Atlas and Inaros Prime, when they came out a lot of people hoped for a rework and got nothing, at the same time though Vauban/Ember/Wukong/Nezha all received amazing changes and while inaros deserves changes he is still one of if not the best tank in the game and atlas while very niche is still generally fun to play and the recent passive augment has brought new life to him for some players.

There is no way the Helminth system will be used to justify slower reworks, after all, even when Helminth drops it is only accesible to a small percent of players(since it is mastery locked and probably locked by deimos faction levels) and even when it does come out a clear Meta will still develop. If De wants to shake up that meta they have to change abilities. Not to mention their are abilities that are clearly not gonna be as good when this launches whose respective frames might see touch ups because of. For example. Nidus larva and Zephyr Airburst are both on their, airburst now has a vortex aspect but Larva will always be picked because it has a greater range(as far as we know). As for balance with subsumption I think it will actually be okay, because the better an ability is, the harder it is to give up the frame for it and the less likely people are going to want to farm them several times, it has a built in balance between dedication and strength- Take Equinox, many believe her subsumed ability is one of the best, but to make a spare equinox you need almost a week of build times.

[Shaburanigud]

On 2020-08-14 at 8:12 PM, NuclearCoffeePot said:

I feel like you are specifically refering to Atlas and Inaros Prime, when they came out a lot of people hoped for a rework and got nothing, at the same time though Vauban/Ember/Wukong/Nezha all received amazing changes and while inaros deserves changes he is still one of if not the best tank in the game and atlas while very niche is still generally fun to play and the recent passive augment has brought new life to him for some players.

There is no way the Helminth system will be used to justify slower reworks, after all, even when Helminth drops it is only accesible to a small percent of players(since it is mastery locked and probably locked by deimos faction levels) and even when it does come out a clear Meta will still develop. If De wants to shake up that meta they have to change abilities. Not to mention their are abilities that are clearly not gonna be as good when this launches whose respective frames might see touch ups because of. For example. Nidus larva and Zephyr Airburst are both on their, airburst now has a vortex aspect but Larva will always be picked because it has a greater range(as far as we know). As for balance with subsumption I think it will actually be okay, because the better an ability is, the harder it is to give up the frame for it and the less likely people are going to want to farm them several times, it has a built in balance between dedication and strength- Take Equinox, many believe her subsumed ability is one of the best, but to make a spare equinox you need almost a week of build times.

Lets be honest, The problem isn't with us justifying Helminth system will replace rework.

It's DE secretly thinking it and not doing the reworks at all.

[Ichsuisme]

I'm hoping there's an unannounced Hydroid rework coming with his deluxe skin. Probably setting myself up for disappointment. Helminth won't go far enough.

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

Imo I think his 4 should move to 3 since its iconic. 3 move to 2 and 3s augment become built in while 1 combines with 3 and its agument stays the same just tweeked to strip armor from drowning enemies too. 

 

So to expand  undertow now has an inner and outer AoE inner is plain jain puddle while out ring is title storm. 

2 needs to be removed completely. Nothing will convince me of its use nothing.

The new 4 should have been what they teased us with and just let him summon the dang kraken companion that's highly aggressive and really fast/tanky.

1 can become anything honestly aslong as 2 is deleted or reworked in a way that makes it cohesive and useful. Your idea for his 1 seems cool I maybe a buff ability. Like DR projectiles and a slowdown for melee units? Or even get something in effect to noves anti matter droplet? Like in the shape of a cannon.

 

You could even give his 4 a restriction where it needs water and bam netentacles. Kinda like barruk or atles.. Personally I hate the tenacles.

[Shaburanigud]

2 hours ago, (XB1)Aquarii Ptosi said:

Imo I think his 4 should move to 3 since its iconic. 3 move to 2 and 3s augment become built in while 1 combines with 3 and its agument stays the same just tweeked to strip armor from drowning enemies too. 

 

So to expand  undertow now has an inner and outer AoE inner is plain jain puddle while out ring is title storm. 

2 needs to be removed completely. Nothing will convince me of its use nothing.

The new 4 should have been what they teased us with and just let him summon the dang kraken companion that's highly aggressive and really fast/tanky.

1 can become anything honestly aslong as 2 is deleted or reworked in a way that makes it cohesive and useful. Your idea for his 1 seems cool I maybe a buff ability. Like DR projectiles and a slowdown for melee units? Or even get something in effect to noves anti matter droplet? Like in the shape of a cannon.

 

You could even give his 4 a restriction where it needs water and bam netentacles. Kinda like barruk or atles.. Personally I hate the tenacles.

I wouldn't mind if his 3 and 4 became one.

You now have an exalted pet "The Kraken". It will follow you end gobble up enemies with it's tentacles.
You can interact with the Kraken to hide under water with him. This will give you control over the tentacles and slowly heal yourself while underwater.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

Hydroid main since U13... completing Steel Path solo w/ Hydroid.. 

I usually am not this blunt, but I completely disagree with OP.

Hydroid got a rework. It was brilliant. Hydroid is really great as he is.. the problem is you dont know how to use him OR you simply WANT him to be something he is not. 

 

[(XBOX)Aquarii Ptosi]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid main since U13... completing Steel Path solo w/ Hydroid.. 

I usually am not this blunt, but I completely disagree with OP.

Hydroid got a rework. It was brilliant. Hydroid is really great as he is.. the problem is you dont know how to use him OR you simply WANT him to be something he is not. 

 

Please go away this really isn't  an ego show. You sound childish. 

[TheGodofWiFi]

8 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid got a rework. It was brilliant.

No he didn't and no it wasn't. What he got was some cynically timed tweaks that only further made his issues worse. It solved non of his core problems.

8 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid main since U13... completing Steel Path solo w/ Hydroid

Not a point in Hydroid's favour as you can technically do the Steel Path with any frame you want. Some frames make it much easier to get through than others however and Hydroid is not one of them. 

8 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid is really great as he is

No he isn't. All his abilities are inferior to every other ability within the same category, he can't survive in high levels without his gods-awful puddle which takes away 99% of the games interaction, Tempest and Swarm are RNG/environment based (on top of having awful charge mechanics) which makes them unreliable, Undertow is pre-rework Slash Dash in everything but name and just as useless and he has zero real meaningful damage or/and CC. Hydroid is vastly inferior all other frames of his type.

All of his powers are from 2014 era Warframe and are thus very clunky and out-of-date. He is not great. He desperately needs a rework.

8 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

the problem is you dont know how to use him

This classically flawed statement definitely does not help your argument.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

"Cant survive in high levels w/o puddle" = false.

Youtube videos of solo MOT endurance runs not using puddle = true.

Everything else comes down to opinion. 

[NuclearCoffeePot]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

"Cant survive in high levels w/o puddle" = false.

Youtube videos of solo MOT endurance runs not using puddle = true.

Everything else comes down to opinion. 

It is true you can survive without puddle, but in that case, what is the use of puddle, the cc is not as reliable as most other abilities in the same veign and its damage is negligent unless exclusively building power strength and constantly casting corroding barrage.

And yes, opinion, this thread is an opinion, so you can disagree all you want but if you want to give criticism do something more then just say i don't know how to use the frame. It's not very constructive.

12 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid main since U13... completing Steel Path solo w/ Hydroid.. 

Congrats

12 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid got a rework. It was brilliant. Hydroid is really great as he is..

Hydroid got to grab enemies in his puddle and charge his 1 and 4, other then that and some tentacle behavior change there wasn't much else. It didn't fix his problems which remain to this day

#1- While his cc is wide range it is easily outclassed. His 1 tends to knock enemies out of its radius. His Undertow slows down gameplay tremendously if you choose to use it. His 4 still warps and breaks enemies and slows down missions like defense if not cast from puddle to isolate them.

#2-He lacks any other purpose, Hydroid is and will always be focused on CC, its just what he does, but it doesn't change the fact that he basically can't do anything else. The damage he does have is negligible in most situations without a comp to flesh it out and while any frame can survive when modded for it his only built in survival tool is his Undertow and possibly his Tidal Surge since it gives invincibility,

12 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

OR you simply WANT him to be something he is not. 

 

To answer that, no. I am keeping his core traits the same, CC Pseudo Tank- His undertow has been turned into a placeable zone that can be freely traveled to and from without destroying it and now serves the added bonus of protecting allies and damaging enemies more reliable. His tidal surge has had its behavior altered so you can use it better. I literally only made it so you can cancel it early or hold cast for altered, more controllable movement.His 3 is a new ability yes but it serves the same purpose as his current 1- placeable cc, only now it has added effects, has specific synergy with his other abilities, and allows hydroid portable status immunity and healing. His 4 is the same old Kraken, but now you are rewarded for using other abilities with extra range and tentacles, and the behavior and damage types have been changed to make it less wonky. 

 

 

PS: REWORKS ARE ABOUT FIXING WARFRAMES NO MATTER WHAT CHANGES

you can't expect a frame to be reworked and not have something changed, if you don't let that happen nothing changes for the better. Take ember, her rework changed almost all her abilities but she stayed the same, her damage was improved and she gained something she didn't have before, survivability. Would you prefer if she stayed the same.

12 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

the problem is you dont know how to use him

Have you been spying on me or something?

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

"Cant survive in high levels w/o puddle" = false.

Youtube videos of solo MOT endurance runs not using puddle = true.

People use his puddle in his levels because if he takes any hits at all, he dies. Simple as that. Someone doing solo MOT endurance using the puddle minimally doesn't suddenly mean that's not true and that Hydroid does not need a rework. This another attempt by you to make it seem like Hydroid is good simply because of a technicalities, in this case MOT. 

Again, ALL frames can technically do that. But like I said; some frames have a much easier time of doing things. That's not an opinion. You're essentially just removing Hydroid from the equation by using technicalities and not actually thinking about his abilities out of pure stubbornness. I could technically survive in MOT or do the Steel Path with a Kraken if I really wanted to, but that does not mean the gun isn't rubbish.

3 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Everything else comes down to opinion.

False.

• Hydroid's 1st and 4th are RNG/environment based.
• Hydroid's only real usage was for loot farming, which he has now been replaced with by Khora.
• Hydroid is largely unpopular and used less than Banshee Prime (source; Warframe usage chart)
• Tidal Surge is Slash Dash in everything but name and is just as useless as both a travel, CC and damage ability.
• Undertow is his only real form of survivability.
• His damage is pitiful.

These are not opinions.

Your defence of Hydroid is incredibly lacking and hollow. "That's just your opinion" and "You just don't know how to play" are not viable arguing points.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

If you agree that he can do all content, then there is no need for change. Just a want -- want is opinion. He doesnt need a rework. YOU may want him to be different, but your want isnt unique nor does it carry more weight than the Hydroid mains (yes, all 8 of us) who like him as he is..and as you have said, there is nothing about him that prevents completion of content.

So, again.. he doesnt NEED a rework. If you dont like him... just move on.

I mean.. i hate Ash. I hate Octavia. But i would never try to screw over Ash mains and Octavia mains by demanding a rework of a frame i dont play as... im curious as to why you feel its ok? 

[TheGodofWiFi]

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

If you agree that he can do all content, then there is no need for change.

Wrong. Entirely 100% wrong.

Like I keep saying; every single frame and weapon is technically capable of doing the whole game content. That does not mean they cannot be changed and that they do not need reworks. I haven't seen such an obviously flawed argument in quite a while.

I agree that Hydroid, along with everything else in the game is technically capable of doing all the content. That is not how we or DE judge whether or not something needs to be reworked, for if it was, then absolutely nothing would change at all. Need for a rework is not based on ridiculous far-reaching technicalities like this. It's based on how much the frame is used, whether the abilities are outdated and subsequently make the frame a chore to use and by popular demand. 

Hydroid is not popular, his abilities are outdated, clunky, inefficient and boring, he has a bad reputation in the general community, he is one of the least used frames and he is frequently mentioned on rework threads. That is why he needs a rework. Technicalities are not a defence because like I said, they are a fallacy. 

Your argument is this;

Someone: "I need a car so I can get to places easier"

Nujintuai: "Can you get there without a car?"

Someone: "Uh, yea but it takes me a lot longer."

Nujintuai: "Then you don't need a car."

Obviously that argument is completely flawed, since while it is technically true, it doesn't actually mean you're right. Hydroid not actively stopping you from completing the game as a defence against a rework is the most hollow argument I have ever heard. 

If we only went by what we literally needed, then we don't technically need this game at all. We don't need books, television, mobiles etc etc. All we need is water, food and air. The argument of literal need is hilariously flawed.

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

So, again.. he doesnt NEED a rework

To make him more efficient at the game, yes he does NEED a rework. Your argument that if it doesn't literally stop you from completing the game and shut your platform down, then it doesn't need a change is completely and utterly flawed and false as you are just taking the word need to its literal extreme, because you don't actually have a real defence for Hydroid.

55 minutes ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

im curious as to why you feel its ok? 

You really have no idea the can of worms you've opened here.

If we blocked any kind of change on account of someone somewhere not liking, then we would never get anything done. No progress would be made at all. In every single change to this game, there has been a far and an against crowd. Ember got changed even though some people liked her, Limbo got changed even though some people liked him, Wukong got changed even though some people liked him, Vauban got changed even though some people liked him (yes there were even a very small amount of people who didn't want Vauban getting a rework, using the similar arguments to you ironically). I could go on but I think you get the point. Those frames were all changed despite having advocates for their previous states but they, like you, are a minority and the changes would only benefit the frame/system and therefore the game as a whole.

Change is necessary. It does not matter if the change "screw" some people over because guess what, every single change screws someone over somewhere. There has never been a change in this game that 100% everyone was happy with. Leaving horrible frames and systems alone because some people like them is not how real progress is made. I have no doubt you yourself have supported a change that some others have been against, because that is how life works.

No one should be listening to people who deny change simply because it forces them to leave their comfort zone, especially if their wants impede real progress and are detrimental to growth, as well as using completely flawed arguments to try and defend themselves.

That is why I feel it is okay.

Hydroid is garbage compared to other frames in his category and that is a stone-cold fact. Other frames have better damage, CC, survivability and utility. That is another stone-cold fact. He does need a rework. 

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

... and what exactly is his category? Are you sure you actually understand the frame?

You do understand that DE could have overhauled his kit for prime access-- but chose only to tweak it..right ? This was because he functions as intended. 

Just because you feel he needs to change isnt a valid reason for him to change. He isnt broken. He works. Hydroid players like him. 

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

and what exactly is his category?

Mainly CC and utility. Like I said; his most popular use was as a farm frame. For a time you could have used him as a below average damage dealer/armour remover with his barrage augment, but since corrosive has taken a back seat to viral, thats now been made worthless.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Are you sure you actually understand the frame?

Don't start this again. All you do when you ask flawed loaded questions like this is just make your argument look even worse.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

You do understand that DE could have overhauled his kit for prime access-- but chose only to tweak it..right ? This was because he functions as intended.

No, they tweaked it because they couldn't be bothered to give Hydroid an actual rework, but wanted to make it out like they'd actually improved him so his Prime Access could sell. It's pretty obvious considering they never even mentioned the rework and it popped up literally out of nowhere.

And whether or not he "functions as intended" is entirely irrelevant, because how he functions, is just is not good enough at all. DE know this, that is why the rework popped up out of nowhere with zero warning two weeks before his PA pack came out, didn't really give a description of the changes until the day of release and on top of all that they actually pre-faced the change descriptions with a request to only post criticism after playing the new "rework", as a way to try and soften the blow of the inevitable criticism from people realising they had in fact made Hydroid worse after reading the descriptions.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

He isnt broken. He works.

Again, Ember worked. Limbo worked. Wukong worked. Excalibur worked. Oberon worked. Vauban worked etc etc

They all got changed. They may not have been outright "broken", but they were either woefully inefficient, got in the way of others gameplay or just straight up rubbish in the modern scope of the game. Hydroid is both woefully inefficient, a chore to use and rubbish in the modern scope of the game.

Also, just for the record I'd argue that Hydroid is actually broken due to the way his 1st and 4th are RNG based and can sometimes not hit enemies altogether.

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid players like him. 

There were people who liked old Ember, Limbo and Vauban and there undoubtedly will be people who like bad frames again in the future. So what. Like I said; I have no doubt you have supported a change others have not welcomed. 

Hydroid is for lack of a better word; crap. He is clunky, boring to use, inefficient, not very useful, unpopular and low on the usage ratings. The majority of people recognise that he needs a change, not just me and this is shown with general views on Hydroid and the usage stats. He is terrible. He needs a proper rework and hopefully he will be getting one sometime in the near future.

An aversion to change is not a valid reason to keep something the way it is.

[AzulMage]

33 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Mainly CC and utility. Like I said; his most popular use was as a farm frame. For a time you could have used him as a below average damage dealer/armour remover with his barrage augment, but since corrosive has taken a back seat to viral, thats now been made worthless.

Don't start this again. All you do when you ask flawed loaded questions like this is just make your argument look even worse.

No, they tweaked it because they couldn't be bothered to give Hydroid an actual rework, but wanted to make it out like they'd actually improved him so his Prime Access could sell. It's pretty obvious considering they never even mentioned the rework and it popped up literally out of nowhere.

And whether or not he "functions as intended" is entirely irrelevant, because how he functions, is just is not good enough at all. DE know this, that is why the rework popped up out of nowhere with zero warning two weeks before his PA pack came out, didn't really give a description of the changes until the day of release and on top of all that they actually pre-faced the change descriptions with a request to only post criticism after playing the new "rework", as a way to try and soften the blow of the inevitable criticism from people realising they had in fact made Hydroid worse after reading the descriptions.

Again, Ember worked. Limbo worked. Wukong worked. Excalibur worked. Oberon worked. Vauban worked etc etc

They all got changed. They may not have been outright "broken", but they were either woefully inefficient, got in the way of others gameplay or just straight up rubbish in the modern scope of the game. Hydroid is both woefully inefficient, a chore to use and rubbish in the modern scope of the game.

Also, just for the record I'd argue that Hydroid is actually broken due to the way his 1st and 4th are RNG based and can sometimes not hit enemies altogether.

There were people who liked old Ember, Limbo and Vauban and there undoubtedly will be people who like bad frames again in the future. So what. Like I said; I have no doubt you have supported a change others have not welcomed. 

Hydroid is for lack of a better word; crap. He is clunky, boring to use, inefficient, not very useful, unpopular and low on the usage ratings. The majority of people recognise that he needs a change, not just me and this is shown with general views on Hydroid and the usage stats. He is terrible. He needs a proper rework and hopefully he will be getting one sometime in the near future.

An aversion to change is not a valid reason to keep something the way it is.

Honestly dude, I don't think it's worth arguing with them on this. I agree with all your points and I do like Hydroid but my gripe has always been the rng nature of 1 and 4 and how his 2 is something I don't use outside of his 3. And yes, I actually like his 3 even if I think it needs some tweaks. But people who currently enjoy his kit and argue he doesn't need a rework because they use him just fine won't have their minds changed in the same way you won't have yours changed. Energy used better elsewhere

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

Hydroid rework did not pop up out of the blue -- that statement is 100% incorrect.

 

The rework was mentioned and there was a whole forum discussing the rework with DE staff. The rework was discussed ALOT before DE worked on it.

 

[TheGodofWiFi]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid rework did not pop up out of the blue -- that statement is 100% incorrect.

The rework was mentioned and there was a whole forum discussing the rework with DE staff. The rework was discussed ALOT before DE worked on it.

I don't remember seeing any forum thread discussing his rework and what they were going to do with it before it was released. I also do not think it was ever discussed ALOT because if it was, DE would have known Hydroid needs a lot more work than what they were doing with him.

I think we've officially reached the end of the conversation, considering you're just trying to find any angle to argue against at this point and are just ignoring the rest of the post. To sum it all up; Hydroid needs a proper rework. I know this and you very clearly know this considering how you go to illogical extremes with the word need to try and defend him.

[TheGodofWiFi]

11 hours ago, (NSW)AzulMage said:

But people who currently enjoy his kit and argue he doesn't need a rework because they use him just fine won't have their minds changed in the same way you won't have yours changed.

I was never trying to change their mind because it is so obvious that they know Hydroid isn't great and they're grasping at straws with this argument. That's clear enough from the really poor defence that takes the word need to its literal extreme. Nujintuai doesn't like change is all.