Hydroid Needs a Rework

[TheGodofWiFi]

4 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

The last person gave up arguing with you because you make a ton of false dichotomies and hyperbolic statements you pass off as fact.

No they stopped talking because their argument was based on the false logic that if something can handle all the game's content regardless if was inefficient or not then it does not need a rework, taking the definition of the word need to its literal extreme and using the "You mad because you can't get used to Hydroid's playstyle", which is the exact same thing you are using.

They used poor arguments and others also pointed that out. That is why they stopped talking.

4 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

I'm saying you don't use it correctly because you're wrong about what it is for.

What Undertow is meant to be used for, is very clear; it's his main source of in-built damage dealing and survivability. DE designed it that way. Before Damage 3.0, Hydroid players paired the puddle with Corrosive Barrage to kill enemies.

4 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

It has scaling damage to partially offset it taking away conventional damage sources

And you have just highlighted one of the reasons why Undertow is scalding hot garbage.

4 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

better nukes than Miasma, and better stealths than Smokescreen, but that doesn't make them bad or useless abilities

No it doesn't, because unlike Undertow, each of those abilities are actually mechanically decent to begin with and also have additional benefits that go along with their slightly inferior abilities, that the frames who have the superior versions do not have access to. It's called having strengths and weaknesses. 

Hydroid only has weaknesses, Undertow being a big one. Every other frame outclasses him in every area. The loot frame was his last niche defence against a rework and it wasn't even much of one anyway, and now Khora has replaced him. He has no point in existing right now.

4 hours ago, YagoXiten said:

I don't even deny that Hydroid has problems, but Undertow isn't one of them.

Then you deny one of Hydroid's biggest problems. The puddle has been and remains one of the most inefficient, awkward and mocked abilities in the game. No matter what you believe it is for, it's a fact that it is his only real form of survivability and damage dealing in his kit. Harp on about using it differently all you want, but it will not change the fact it is highly inferior/inefficient to play Hydroid in both your playstyle and a campers playstyle, because either way he has no real advantages over other frames in any area whatsoever. He has to put in ten times the effort than the other warframes and that is not good.

He doesn't need tweaks. He needs a rework and Undertow going the way of Super Jump can only benefit Hydroid in the long run.

[YagoXiten]

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No they gave up because their argument was based on the false logic that if something can handle all the game's content regardless if was inefficient or not then it does not need a rework, taking the definition of the word need to its literal extreme and using the "You mad because you can't get used to Hydroid's playstyle", which is the exact same thing you are using.

Do you ever get tired of arguing with strawmen? No reasonable person is going to assert that any Warframe, no matter how underpowered, is literally incapable of completing all the content in the game. Conversely, no reasonable person is going to assert that because any Warframe is capable of completing all the content in the game that they are literally incapable of being underpowered and needing some work. The implied, though not outright stated, caveat to their argument is that Hydroid is reasonably effective at all the game's content and that that is a significant reason not to majorly rework him like in the OP or in most of the replies.

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

They used poor arguments and others also pointed that out. That is why they stopped talking.

No, they told you, quite explicitly, why they quit talking:

On 2020-08-18 at 7:20 AM, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

You also like to put words in people's mouths and attempt to dominate conversations with beforementioned absolute statements--- and this fails, as it has this time, as you havent convinced me of anything other than you simply dont like Hydroid.

You are correct about one thing though.. as a conversation requires two people and you have chosen to stop, then there is no result other than the end of the conversation. 

Which is true, by the way.

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

What Undertow is meant to be used for, is very clear; it's his main source of in-built damage dealing and survivability. DE designed it that way. Before Damage 3.0, Hydroid players paired the puddle with Corrosive Barrage to kill enemies.

And it's reasonably effective at those roles albeit defensively far more so than damage. No one argued that it couldn't be improved. And I'm sure that plenty of folks would agree that it should be improved somewhat. Which is painfully obvious if you actually interpret the folks defending it charitably rather than trying to shout them down and then proudly claiming victory when folks decide you're not worth arguing with.

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Hydroid only has weaknesses, Undertow being a big one. Every other frame outclasses him in every area. The loot frame was his last niche defence against a rework and it wasn't even much of one anyway, and now Khora has replaced him. He has no point in existing right now.

That's an absolute and blatantly ludicrous assertion. Ash, Chroma, Gara, Garuda, Gauss, Grendel, Harrow, Mesa, Nekros, Nyx, Protea, Revenant, Trinity, Valkyr, Wukong, and Zephyr all have objectively worse crowd control than Hydroid does. And you can't seriously say he has less survivability than say, Banshee. He's also lot faster than a frame like Trinity or Frost or Rhino.

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Then you deny one of Hydroid's biggest problems. The puddle has been and remains one of the most inferior and mocked abilities in the game.

And it's one of the most popular abilities with people who actually play Hydroid.

21 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Harp on about using it differently all you want, but it will not change the fact it is highly inferior/inefficient to play Hydroid in both your playstyle and a campers playstyle, because either way he has no real advantages over other frames in any area whatsoever. He has to put in ten times the effort of other warframes and that is not good.

He doesn't need tweaks. He needs a rework.

Failure to be the best in any given area is not an argument for a rework. And even if he isn't as good at any given thing as he should be that in and of itself isn't an argument for a rework. That's an argument to buff him. There are frames who need attention far more than Hydroid. Ash, Banshee, Frost, Inaros, Mesa, Mirage, Nyx, Trinity, Valkyr, and Zephyr all have problems far worse than he does.

[TheGodofWiFi]

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

Conversely, no reasonable person is going to assert that because any Warframe is capable of completing all the content in the game that they are literally incapable of being underpowered and needing some work.

Clearly you have not seen this;

On 2020-08-17 at 4:41 PM, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

If you agree that he can do all content, then there is no need for change.

because that is exactly what this person was doing. Which is why Nujintuai was not a reasonable person and was using false logic. And no, they were not implying that he is "reasonably effective". They outright stated if he could do the content, he didn't need to be changed. I don't know how you think this is going to lend credence to your argument, because it doesn't, due to the fact it is blatantly clear what they were saying as well as the fact that you are not them.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

No, they told you, quite explicitly, why they quit talking

Yea, they pretended like they didn't take the word need to its literal extreme and acting like if Hydroid could handle the games content at all, then he did not need a change, instead acting like I was "putting words in their mouth". All you need to do is go back two pages to see that was the logic they were using and acting like just because Hydroid could get through the Steel Path, that somehow meant he didn't need a rework. Their logic was flawed and they knew it, which is why they did a completely typical response of someone when they have clearly lost and just accused me of putting words in their mouth before slinking off tail between the legs.

That's why I never bothered replying to them, since that accusation was so blatantly false and laughable that it wasn't even worth the time and now you have just used it, which makes your response even more hilarious.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

No one argued that it couldn't be improved.

You claimed it was not a problem not two post ago.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

Which is painfully obvious if you actually interpret the folks defending it charitably rather than trying to shout them down and then proudly claiming victory when folks decide you're not worth arguing with.

I don't interpret people charitably when they use hideously flawed logic like;

"Well I can survive in the Steel Path"

"If he can do the content, then he doesn't need a rework" 

and

"You just don't know how to play properly".

That is the kind of nonsense that immediately tells you that the person who said is very clearly biased and not open to any kind of constructive conversation whatsoever. You are also within that crowd, since you claim that Undertow is not a problem when it very clearly is.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

Ash, Chroma, Gara, Garuda, Gauss, Grendel, Harrow, Mesa, Nekros, Nyx, Protea, Revenant, Trinity, Valkyr, Wukong, and Zephyr all have objectively worse crowd control than Hydroid does.

You are joking right. Each and every one of those frames you just mentioned have far better CC capability than Hydroid. Even though Zephyr's 4th is similar to Hydroids, at the very least her tornadoes are 100% guaranteed to pick up enemies reliably due the mechanics of tornadoes and the fact range also helps their reach.

I mean honestly, if you're going to say Nyx has worse CC than Hydroid then you might as well just say he's the best frame in the game. And you wonder why I don't take people like you seriously.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

And you can't seriously say he has less survivability than say, Banshee.

No he has more survivability than her due to his puddle. So what? People actually use Banshee Prime more than Hydroid Prime according to the official usage chart;

So yea, while his puddle makes him more survivable than a frame who basically has no defence abilities at all, that doesn't mean its suddenly a good ability. That is a fallacy. 

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

He's also lot faster than a frame like Trinity or Frost or Rhino.

I take you're referring to Tidal Surge, a terrible travel ability which is demonstrably slower than bullet-jumping.

And so what if those frames you mentioned don't have an in-built travel ability? Do you honestly think that will make someone pick Hydroid over any of them due to that? Again, another ludicrous defence.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

And it's one of the most popular abilities with people who actually play Hydroid.

Ah so now you're going for another fallacy by assuming that I've never played Hydroid. I suppose if you've dug that far already you might as well keep going.

This may blow your mind; I play Hydroid and I hate Undertow. I love Hydroids theme, but he simply is not worth using at all due to the way his abilities work. Which is why he needs a rework.

Also, who cares if certain players like yourself think the puddle is great. The majority don't and that's what counts.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

Failure to be the best in any given area is not an argument for a rework.

You're absolutely right. You don't need to be the best of the best, but you do need to actually be good at something. Hydroid is not. He is a student of none and a master of none. He has no advantage over any frame at all and there is literally no point in using him when you have so many better options out there that do what he does, but far better. That is why he needs a rework. He doesn't need to make frames like Inaros, Nyx, Chroma or others irrelevant, but he does need to to offer something that would give a player pause for thought when choosing which frame to run with, because right now the amount of thought people spare for Hydroid is about as much as the dust mites in their bathroom carpets.

He needs to have something that the other frames do not have and right now, all that he has is the fact that he is absolute trash when compared to any other frame in his category. Inefficient damage, inefficient CC and inefficient utility/survivability. The main strikes that determine a Warframe's usefulness.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

That's an argument to buff him.

Stat increases will not help Hydroid. The main reason why he has remained a joke and unpopular in the community since his introduction, is due to the way his mechanics work. His stats are an afterthought if the mechanics are garbage. His mechanics are inefficient, awkward and just plain awful. Half of his ability are RNG based and the other half are just useless. You and other like Nujintuai just don't want change purely because it means you'd have to leave your comfort zone. That's not an excuse to not have a rework, especially since he is in such a bad place at the moment.

A rework would be a far bigger buff than just some hollow tweaks that solve none of his core issues.

1 hour ago, YagoXiten said:

Ash, Banshee, Frost, Inaros, Mesa, Mirage, Nyx, Trinity, Valkyr, and Zephyr all have problems far worse than he does.

These frames have bigger problems than Hydroid....

See this is why I dismiss any argument that says things like this. Completely ludicrous. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling actually, considering you say a frame like Mesa has bigger problems that Hydroid.

Once again I'm just going to stop replying, because its clear to anyone how poor these "defences" of Hydroid are and there really is no point in talking to someone who says that the top-tier frames have worse problems than the worst frame in the game.

[YagoXiten]

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Clearly you have not seen this;

because that is exactly what this person was doing. Which is why Nujintuai was not a reasonable person and was using false logic. And no, they were not implying that he is "reasonably effective". They outright stated if he could do the content, he didn't need to be changed. I don't know how you think this is going to lend credence to your argument, because it doesn't, due to the fact it is blatantly clear what they were saying as well as the fact that you are not them.

Yea, they pretended like they didn't take the word need to its literal extreme and acting like if Hydroid could handle the games content at all, then he did not need a change, instead acting like I was "putting words in their mouth". All you need to do is go back two pages to see that was the logic they were using and acting like just because Hydroid could get through the Steel Path, that somehow meant he didn't need a rework. Their logic was flawed and they knew it, which is why they did a completely typical response of someone when they have clearly lost and just accused me of putting words in their mouth before slinking off tail between the legs.

That's why I never bothered replying to them, since that accusation was so blatantly false and laughable that it wasn't even worth the time and now you have just used it, which makes your response even more hilarious.

I did see what he said. But part of the reason that you're supposed to interpret people charitably is to divine why they make the arguments they do. Most flawed arguments are made because they're trying to communicate something complex and nuanced and a shorthand version is easier than writing walls of text that no one will read. Especially not when people refuse to engage in good faith as you've bragged repeatedly about doing.

The context of this thread is not improvements to what Hydroid is or seriously addressing his current problems. It's a complete reimagining of him with little if any resemblance to his current self. If you're going to just ignore that incredibly important detail I can see why you might think 'Hydroid needs no changes' is some absolutist and absurd stance that he needs literally zero help.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You claimed it was not a problem not two post ago.

There's a difference between classifying something as a thing that could use improvements and classifying something as a problem. But you're so committed to being disingenuous I suppose that nuance must have escaped you.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I don't interpret people charitably when they use hideously flawed logic like;

"Well I can survive in the Steel Path"

"If he can do the content, then he doesn't need a rework" 

and

"You just don't know how to play properly".

That is the kind of nonsense that immediately tells you that the person who said is very clearly biased and not open to any kind of constructive conversation whatsoever. You are also within that crowd, since you claim that Undertow is not a problem when it very clearly is.

You are joking right. Each and every one of those frames you just mentioned have far better CC capability than Hydroid. Even though Zephyr's 4th is similar to Hydroids, at the very least her tornadoes are 100% guaranteed to pick up enemies reliably due the mechanics of tornadoes and the fact range also helps their reach.

Please remind me, which of Ash's abilities have relevant CC? Which of Trinity's?

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I mean honestly, if you're going to say Nyx has worse CC than Hydroid then you might as well just say he's the best frame in the game. And you wonder why I don't take people like you seriously.

There you go again with silly false dichotomies.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

No he has more survivability than her due to his puddle. So what? People actually use Banshee Prime more than Hydroid Prime according to the official usage chart;

I am well aware of the chart. It's been mentioned quite a few times.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

So yea, while his puddle makes him more survivable than a frame who basically has no defence abilities at all, that doesn't mean its suddenly a good ability. That is a fallacy.

I never argued that.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

I take you're referring to Tidal Surge, a terrible travel ability which is demonstrably slower than bullet-jumping.

At what duration, exactly?

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

And so what if those frames you mentioned don't have an in-built travel ability? Do you honestly think that will make someone pick Hydroid over any of them due to that? Again, another ludicrous defence.

I never claimed that that would make someone pick Hydroid over them. I was only responding your absurd statement that he's better than no other Warframe at anything. He is objectively faster than several other frames, he's objectively harder to kill than several other frames.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Ah so now you're going for another fallacy by assuming that I've never played Hydroid. I suppose if you've dug that far already you might as well keep going.

This may blow your mind; I play Hydroid and I hate Undertow. I love Hydroids theme, but he simply is not worth using at all due to the way his abilities work. Which is why he needs a rework.

Also, who cares if certain players like yourself think the puddle is great. The majority don't and that's what counts.

Citation needed. The fact that the forums like to complain about Undertow is hardly proof of a majority. You did, however, just provide rather strong evidence that you're more interested in what you imagine Hydroid to be than what he is or ever has been. It can be hard when you want to like something more than you actually like it.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

You're absolutely right. You don't need to be the best of the best, but you do need to actually be good at something. Hydroid is not. He is a student of none and a master of none. He has no advantage over any frame at all and there is literally no point in using him when you have so many better options out there that do what he does, but far better.

He's good at a variety of mission types. I'd much rather have him on an Interception or Defense mission than Ash, for example. I'd rather have him on Survival missions than Banshee. He's not great, but he's certainly not a chore to play and do well with. He's a generalist. A mediocre one, sure. But that's not the same as bad. There are plenty of ways to improve him which don't involve removing him from the game and replacing him with an imposter using the same name.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

That is why he needs a rework. He doesn't need to make frames like Inaros, Nyx, Chroma or others irrelevant, but he does need to to offer something that would give a player pause for thought when choosing which frame to run with, because right now the amount of thought people spare for Hydroid is about as much as the dust mites in their bathroom carpets.

What a strange list. Nyx is already irrelevant. She's in worse shape than Hydroid is. Chroma's rather irrelevant outside of a handful of very specific things. Quite frankly those two in particular perform worse than Hydroid on like half the mission types.

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

He needs to have something that the otherframes do not have and right now, all that he has is the fact that he is absolute trash when compared to any other frame in his category. Inefficient damage, inefficient CC and inefficient utility/survivability. The main strikes that determine a Warframe's usefulness.

Usefulness for what, exactly? And just how useful do you expect a frame to be?

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

Stat increases will not help Hydroid. The main reason why he has remained a joke and unpopular in the community since his introduction, is due to the way his mechanics work. His stats are an afterthought if the mechanics are garbage. His mechanics are inefficient, awkward and just plain awful. Half of his ability are RNG based and the other half are just useless. You and other like Nujintuai just don't want change purely because it means you'd have to leave your comfort zone. That's not an excuse to not have a rework, especially since he is in such a bad place at the moment.

Tempest Barrage's RNG is more of a quirk than a serious hit to its reliability (at least, prior to the status stacking patch breaking it). Tentacle Swarm is an issue, though, yes. But you can improve his mechanics substantially with just tweaks.

I'm quite comfortable leaving my comfort zone, actually!

35 minutes ago, TheGodofWiFi said:

A rework would be a far bigger buff than just some hollow tweaks that solve none of his core issues.

These frames have bigger problems than Hydroid....

See this is why I dismiss any argument that says things like this. Completely ludicrous. I'm pretty sure you're just trolling actually, considering you say a frame like Mesa has bigger problems that Hydroid.

Once again I'm just going to stop replying, because its clear to anyone how poor these "defences" of Hydroid are and there really is no point in talking to someone who says that the top-tier frames have worse problems than the worst frame in the game.

Mesa has more or less one ability: Peacemaker. Ballistic Battery is probably the worst ability in the game. No one is fighting to have Mesa in their squad for Shooting Gallery or Shatter Shield, either. Having one good ability, one trash ability, and two set and forget abilities is an awful lot of wasted design space. That's a far bigger sin than being mediocre at any given role.

The efficacy of Mirage's Eclipse is based upon tileset generation and rarely if ever gives its full value. Prism's cast animation is awful and both its damage and CC are redundant and inferior to her augmented Sleight of Hand in most cases. Sleight of Hand itself is rather awful without the augment, too.

Quite frankly, I'd much rather play a mediocre generalist like Hydroid than a cobbled together specialist like Mesa whose only claim to fame is having the biggest and most irrelevant overkill numbers.

[crackbeard]

On 2020-08-16 at 6:10 PM, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Hydroid main since U13... completing Steel Path solo w/ Hydroid.. 

I usually am not this blunt, but I completely disagree with OP.

Hydroid got a rework. It was brilliant. Hydroid is really great as he is.. the problem is you dont know how to use him OR you simply WANT him to be something he is not. 

 

Whats your build like

[Ichsuisme]

I’d really like to see undertow and tidal surge combined to be one ability. You could activate each through the tap/hold mechanic like so many other frames have (Protea 1, Vauban 4, Zephyr 1&2, etc.). I barely use either of these abilities.  but I still like having the option of both, they do have their niche uses (mostly when goofing around); I’d be sad to see either removed.

Once his 2&3 are combined, I’d want an ability that helps Hydroid stay alive while he’s mobile. He’s great at CC — but only when he’s locking down areas; none of his CC moves with him. He’s not a tanky frame, he needs something in his kit that he can use while he’s running around.
 

Maybe that comes as charges akin to revenant’s Mesmer skin which activate when hydroid is hit. Total incoming damage prevention like revenant would be over the top &boring, so maybe it’d just put a cap on incoming damage. Like maybe while you have active charges, no one, single attack can do more than 20% of your health. And then any enemy who hits that damage cap, is pulled into a puddle (like undertow) for 1/2second which fears enemies around it. That’s just my quick idea, not perfect, open to other ideas, but it’d fit his: CC Kit, theme of enemies fearing the depths, and current need for survivability. These values should be affected by mods.

Lastly, & separately, I’d like Hydroid’s tentacles to become way more reliable than they are now. Too frequently I have to recast the ability because the tentacles all randomly spawn, bunched up, in the smallest area possible even when I hold to charge and use range mods. Also, enemies are often able to run through the tentacles without being CC’ed by them. Today I literally watched two infested runners, run through my tentacles and successfully reach me. It’s frustrating that his best ability for common missions is so unreliable.

 

Ok two more, small things and then I’ll rest my case! In general, I’d like to see his damage increased especially for his charged abilities. And I’d like to see his undertow speed increased & undertow should reduce the cost of tidal surge while active — similar to how zephyr and revenant can reduce the costs of their mobility skills if criteria are met (zephyr in air, revenant using danse macabre).

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

On 2020-08-26 at 12:43 PM, TheGodofWiFi said:

No they stopped talking because their argument was based on the false logic that if something can handle all the game's content regardless if was inefficient or not then it does not need a rework, taking the definition of the word need to its literal extreme and using the "You mad because you can't get used to Hydroid's playstyle", which is the exact same thing you are using.

They used poor arguments and others also pointed that out. That is why they stopped talking.

What Undertow is meant to be used for, is very clear; it's his main source of in-built damage dealing and survivability. DE designed it that way. Before Damage 3.0, Hydroid players paired the puddle with Corrosive Barrage to kill enemies.

And you have just highlighted one of the reasons why Undertow is scalding hot garbage.

No it doesn't, because unlike Undertow, each of those abilities are actually mechanically decent to begin with and also have additional benefits that go along with their slightly inferior abilities, that the frames who have the superior versions do not have access to. It's called having strengths and weaknesses. 

Hydroid only has weaknesses, Undertow being a big one. Every other frame outclasses him in every area. The loot frame was his last niche defence against a rework and it wasn't even much of one anyway, and now Khora has replaced him. He has no point in existing right now.

Then you deny one of Hydroid's biggest problems. The puddle has been and remains one of the most inefficient, awkward and mocked abilities in the game. No matter what you believe it is for, it's a fact that it is his only real form of survivability and damage dealing in his kit. Harp on about using it differently all you want, but it will not change the fact it is highly inferior/inefficient to play Hydroid in both your playstyle and a campers playstyle, because either way he has no real advantages over other frames in any area whatsoever. He has to put in ten times the effort than the other warframes and that is not good.

He doesn't need tweaks. He needs a rework and Undertow going the way of Super Jump can only benefit Hydroid in the long run.

No, I stopped talking because you said you were done talking. 

Fact. 

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

13 hours ago, crackbeard said:

Whats your build like

Nothing special.. just an Umbral build w Adaptation.   

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

12 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Once his 2&3 are combined, I’d want an ability that helps Hydroid stay alive while he’s mobile. He’s great at CC — but only when he’s locking down areas; none of his CC moves with him. He’s not a tanky frame, he needs something in his kit that he can use while he’s running around.

Umbral build him w Adaptation and he wont die. Seriously.. i run around Steel Path w/o any worries.

But..you may also want to swap out barrage out for Harrow's chains though.. the shield gate loop might help your survivability if you are having issues.

[Ichsuisme]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Umbral build him w Adaptation and he wont die.

Thanks but I have my own build that I have fun with. Plus: Umbral mods + adaptation will keep any warframe up -- so tbh I find that a boring crutch to lean on. It's not exciting and lacks creativity; I don't want to be unkillable, I want to be kept on my toes. I just want to have a better chance to survive using Hydroid's own skills.

My point was Hydroid's kit has a lot of CC but none of his skills travel with him. I'd say most of the other CC frames have something like this already. Vauban can use the tesla balls that follow along, albeit wildly. Limbo can go in his own rift with just a roll dodge and safely cross the entire map. Octavia's CC ball of death follows her closely. Khora isn't as mobile with her CC but she has high damage and Venari to heal herself, if needed. Hydroid doesn't have anything like these skills. He is vulnerable when he's running around the map.

So yeah, if Hydroid is one day lucky enough to get some changes, I would insist his 2 and his 3 become one ability. To me, that change would just makes sense, both of those skills are so situational. But then, with one ability slot now left open, I don't want a random Vauban-esque damage strike that doesn't match the rest of his theme; Hydroid really doesn't need a kraken companion either. For Hydroid, I'd want DE to just stick to CC and do it well.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

I respect your opinion, but allow me to remind you that he is a raider/field disruptor ... as such, modding him to survive is expected. Its not a crutch.. its the same as Inaros or Chroma.. you are meant to mod that way.

When a frame is built in a way that such mods clearly augment strengths, its intended. For example- Umbral Loki makes no sense. Umbral Chroma does. When you Umbral Hydroid, it also makes sense (Health, armor, power strength). Thus, it "goes with" the frame...  putting health/armor/strength on a vanguard frame isnt a crutch.. its expected.

 As Hydroid is a intended to be a melee frame, mobility is intended. The proof of this is his passive AND the fact that he is good speed AND he ( when stamina was a thing) had the highest stamina in warframe. 

He has always been intended to be highly a mobile melee raider/disruptor.  The proof is, literally, his stats, powers, augments, passive, etc..

So, i present to you that an Umbral build is not a crutch.. its expected. 

 

[Navarc]

The 1st and the 3rd ability look a lot more like a new sea warframe idea than a hydroid rework, I also would love for at least the tenatcles in your line-of-sight to slow down for you to easier shoot at but DE has said that they will not do that because his abilities are meant to be "chaotic" though I don't see any single chaotic thing about the puddle. Don't get me wrong, I'd love his 3 to be anything else just like the passive he has but DE Scott worked hard to make it & will keep it regardless of player usage & popularity. It's perfect for swapping out nowadays I guess though? Tempest Barrage I really enjoy & I do feel is plenty powerful for its low cost so I'd like to keep it. Fits very well to the theme as well.
I really think for being the main looter frame & with such high loot chance, it should be innate like Nekros has the +loot chance being innate. Maybe instead the augment can vacuum loot to its position or allies within the 4's range can get +vacuum range stat while within the area? I don't know any Hydroid main who is skipping Pilfering Swarm augment at the very least to make energy orbs for the team. The ability is not worth casting without the augment so it's very clear that the loot chance should be innate.

The passive definitely has to go. All of his abilities knockdown or ragdoll enemies, as is intended so you'd think his passive would be about triggering something when you do a ground finisher, but no, it's to sometimes make a tentacle on specific surfaces on a corpse you just killed with groundslam, or it's already knocked down/ragdolling due to the groundslam & so is not a threat. The tentacle serves little to no purpose.  ANY other idea than what we have I will approve of to be honest.

[Ichsuisme]

5 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

As Hydroid is a intended to be a melee frame, mobility is intended.

Except his skills don’t move with him. That’s my point. His skills lack mobility. His tidal wave is a sickeningly fast dash forward but it’s only good when you’re lucky enough to not crash into things because it can’t be controlled mid-use — I consider tidal surge is totally situational. And technically his puddle can move too but it’s so slow that it’s practically stationary. And when used together, distance from the tidal surge is halved and enemies in the puddle tend to be left behind (if that’s intentional or not idk). Neither are absolutely terrible but they’re far from being good, lack synergy, and don’t perform well.

I stand by my claim that Hydroid deserves a skill that helps him while he’s traveling.

If you want to build him to be tanky, you could still do that even if they tweaked his kit, that’s up to you. To be clear, I’m not asking to make Hydroid an unkillable tank, I just think he needs a defensive skill to fill in a defensive gap while he’s moving. For example, when Nekros uses terrify, it’s not guaranteed to keep him alive, it’s not iron skin, absorb, or hysteria; but it does give Nekros, his allies, or a defense target, a brief fighting chance if needed. That’s on the same defensive level of what I think Hydroid needs but it could be designed to activate like revenant’s Mesmer skin via charges so that it moves with Hydroid while he’s mobile.

 

And I’m unconvinced that Adaptation isn’t a crutch, umbra mods I’m fine with. But I’ve used adaptation in the past and it’s too effective. I’d rather see a frame be able to survive on its own, relying on its own skills and risk the occasional deaths, than be 99% unkillable. But either way, I’m speaking to Hydroid’s basic design, not whether or not you can currently use mods to overcome his shortcomings.

[(XBOX)Cram Duahcim]

On 2020-08-13 at 5:17 PM, Rawbeard said:

reworks are over. now you get to helmith abilities you don't like

They have confirmed reworks will continue🤷‍♂️

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

13 hours ago, Navarchus said:

I don't know any Hydroid main who is skipping Pilfering Swarm augment at the very least to make energy orbs for the team

Yes you do... me !   Ive been the Tidal Surge augment b/c those procs can get nasty AF on Steel.. especially on steel essence farming endurance runs . Immune to procs for 12 seconds comes in much more handy that extra energy.. and the p.swarm augment doesnt really add any real chance boost to Steel dropping.. so no loss on that end. 

[crackbeard]

On 2020-08-28 at 2:01 PM, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Nothing special.. just an Umbral build w Adaptation.   

all 3 umbral mods? i was under the impression he was more shield based but idk. any ideas for a good a bility to subsume to make him more tanky? i like him a lot but im having trouble not dying to steel enemies when i dont want to use my puddle all the time.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

7 hours ago, crackbeard said:

all 3 umbral mods? i was under the impression he was more shield based but idk. any ideas for a good a bility to subsume to make him more tanky? i like him a lot but im having trouble not dying to steel enemies when i dont want to use my puddle all the time.

Depends... i have one Hydroid w all three and another with just two. The ideal for a non-helminth  build would be two umbral of health and armor. While the strength mod will also boost health and armor more, i have found that using that slot for an augment is overall better. I run a rapid fire scourge and Nami Skyla combo, so i dont need powers to kill anything.. just to disrupt and position crowds  while you stat proc and melee everything ( Hydroid's intended playstyle).  

As far as shields go: no, clear that from your mind. Unless you want to put Condemn on him, which i have a Config i named Keelhaul w Condemed replacing Tempest Barrage. In that case, the shields are a byproduct of the chains..so you still dont need to plan for them. Also, you can throw chains from Puddle, just fyi. Keelhaul is more about giving you an ability that holds enemies as opposed to knocking them down.. a slight variation.. the shield boost is just a nice touch.

I also tried Roar on him, but honestly.. even at 191% power strength, roar is only at 57%.. its "ok".. but really pointless for me because a good Hydroid build can already trash Steel Path so the boost isnt really needed. I suppose Roar could help teammates ? 

Today i will try Elemental Ward.. it should boost survivability.. although, again, not really needed.. but it could be useful for team. 

 

 

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

7 hours ago, crackbeard said:

all 3 umbral mods? i was under the impression he was more shield based but idk. any ideas for a good a bility to subsume to make him more tanky? i like him a lot but im having trouble not dying to steel enemies when i dont want to use my puddle all the time.

Also.. i guess i need to ask this: what exactly is killing you? Its important to identify the culprit ... is it Stat procs? Is it one shots?  Is it mob death? Etc.. 

[crackbeard]

3 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Depends... i have one Hydroid w all three and another with just two. The ideal for a non-helminth  build would be two umbral of health and armor. While the strength mod will also boost health and armor more, i have found that using that slot for an augment is overall better. I run a rapid fire scourge and Nami Skyla combo, so i dont need powers to kill anything.. just to disrupt and position crowds  while you stat proc and melee everything ( Hydroid's intended playstyle).  

As far as shields go: no, clear that from your mind. Unless you want to put Condemn on him, which i have a Config i named Keelhaul w Condemed replacing Tempest Barrage. In that case, the shields are a byproduct of the chains..so you still dont need to plan for them. Also, you can throw chains from Puddle, just fyi. Keelhaul is more about giving you an ability that holds enemies as opposed to knocking them down.. a slight variation.. the shield boost is just a nice touch.

I also tried Roar on him, but honestly.. even at 191% power strength, roar is only at 57%.. its "ok".. but really pointless for me because a good Hydroid build can already trash Steel Path so the boost isnt really needed. I suppose Roar could help teammates ? 

Today i will try Elemental Ward.. it should boost survivability.. although, again, not really needed.. but it could be useful for team. 

 

 

yeah im definitely not looking for power strength on him at all and when i do its just to heal faster from undertow augment. i have to say i do agree that an augment mod is way more important for him than power strength, he has so many good ones. my first warframe is subsuming right now and im going to try out pillage on him ill let you know how it is, seemed like a good idea because 1 it strips enemies armor/shields, 2 it comes back and boosts my shields and hydroid has high base shields, and 3 removes status effects for me and allies which is basically what my 2 does with an augment but i dont need an augment and all the other effects are way better than "weee im a wave".

 

and for whats killing me idk man honestly i just run him and he doesn't seem to be able to survive well in steel path compared to other warframes unless i use puddle more than i want too. theres definitely ways to play him and survive but to me he feels the most fun running around CCing enemies and shooting them so thats what im trying to get to work. im gonna try focusing more on health and armor and see how that goes though thanks for the input.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

2 hours ago, crackbeard said:

yeah im definitely not looking for power strength on him at all and when i do its just to heal faster from undertow augment. i have to say i do agree that an augment mod is way more important for him than power strength, he has so many good ones. my first warframe is subsuming right now and im going to try out pillage on him ill let you know how it is, seemed like a good idea because 1 it strips enemies armor/shields, 2 it comes back and boosts my shields and hydroid has high base shields, and 3 removes status effects for me and allies which is basically what my 2 does with an augment but i dont need an augment and all the other effects are way better than "weee im a wave".

 

and for whats killing me idk man honestly i just run him and he doesn't seem to be able to survive well in steel path compared to other warframes unless i use puddle more than i want too. theres definitely ways to play him and survive but to me he feels the most fun running around CCing enemies and shooting them so thats what im trying to get to work. im gonna try focusing more on health and armor and see how that goes though thanks for the input.

Yea, Pillage will probably work out well for you.. and like you said, if it works correctly, you wont need Tidal augment, so you can swap Tidal w/ Pillage.

Let me know how that works for you?  Pillage is on my list of subsumed powers, but one a day, right ? 

If you have good experience with it, ill prolly move it up in queue.  

[crackbeard]

46 minutes ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Yea, Pillage will probably work out well for you.. and like you said, if it works correctly, you wont need Tidal augment, so you can swap Tidal w/ Pillage.

Let me know how that works for you?  Pillage is on my list of subsumed powers, but one a day, right ? 

If you have good experience with it, ill prolly move it up in queue.  

yeah i think it's going to work well. one of the problems i run into with hydroid is i pretty much want to run all his augments because they make his abilities so much better lol, so if i can do the same thing with a different ability and not have to use the augment its a huge boon imo. currently mostly playing hydroid/ash and ash runs into the same problems, he's pretty good but needs his augments and that takes up valuable mod slots.

[crackbeard]

11 hours ago, (PS4)Nujintuai said:

Yea, Pillage will probably work out well for you.. and like you said, if it works correctly, you wont need Tidal augment, so you can swap Tidal w/ Pillage.

Let me know how that works for you?  Pillage is on my list of subsumed powers, but one a day, right ? 

If you have good experience with it, ill prolly move it up in queue.  

just got the chance to use it and man i gotta tell you, it feels amazing. totally fixes any kind of survival problems as well as strips armor/shields and removes status effects for a pretty low energy cost. can be used while inside the puddle which is useful. another bonus is that although it doesn't work against most infested (the new ones have armor so it works on them) if you use the augment blazing pillage it then works on the infested with no armor. really great for any hydroid thats tired of either always being a puddle or using only melee weapons which i think is a crutch because any warframe can do the highest content easily with melee weapons.

[(PSN)Nujintuai]

10 hours ago, crackbeard said:

just got the chance to use it and man i gotta tell you, it feels amazing. totally fixes any kind of survival problems as well as strips armor/shields and removes status effects for a pretty low energy cost. can be used while inside the puddle which is useful. another bonus is that although it doesn't work against most infested (the new ones have armor so it works on them) if you use the augment blazing pillage it then works on the infested with no armor. really great for any hydroid thats tired of either always being a puddle or using only melee weapons which i think is a crutch because any warframe can do the highest content easily with melee weapons.

So, did you Steel test it ? Im still confused to your survival issue -- but its not relevant anymore. Im glad that pillage does the trick. You dont even need to come up with a "meta name" for it (like my Keelhaul setup) ..  "Pillage" already goes with pirate theme. 

Enjoy ! 

[NuclearCoffeePot]

To the people constantly arguing back and forth about who said what and why your wrong and im right please just....chill. This is meant to be a constructive discussion post on how hydroid could be reworked. If you don't like the idea of hydroid being reworked just say that and leave, their is no reason to hang around insulting and berrating people if your not going to contribute to How hydroid could be reworked instead of arguing about Should hydroid could be reworked.

[Wolfdoggie]

I been messing around with Hydroid lately... awful by default, but anyways...

I think I really love Mag's pull on him already and it makes him a lot more useful. You can dump range (pull is 25m default- dont nerf plx) for power strength or more augments and use a better pull (his 3's tentacle pull is slow and awful range) to sweep room into your tentacles/puddle instantly. 

But now that stretch isn't needed I decide between a medeocre 1 or 2 skill to replace and can actually have space to augment one cuz they're both pretty useless without augment. I like the idea of Tidal's augment cuz gas damage is god tier currently in Deimos and he becomes status immune. But the problem is Tidal just sucks~ for SOME REASON his 3 doesn't stop movement anymore. Is it so much to ask for to allow us to cancel the animation by jumping or pressing the skill again? Apparently so cuz I asked YEARS ago. Revenant gets it tho. He also doesn't drag enemies inside the puddle with him when he uses them together. Making it just shapeshift him into the wet lump for the duration and letting us move him ourselves at increased speed is also an option.

As for his 1. I like that it destroys containers, that's pretty much it. But it's also the only extra damage you can do with puddle, and I gueeeess... some unreliable cc. Corroding augment is questionable, honestly. I feel like the skill does nothing at all when I use it in higher levels, it has no scaling. So for now that's what I replaced with pull.

There's also a lot of unresponciveness with his skills as there's a delay between the next time you can use/charge his skill after using one and I'll be holding the button and notice nothing charging. I wish they'd just scrap the charging system and just keep hold as a mechanic that only determines the range; min or max. Holding button would instantly cast the max range version, animation time included ofc.