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Raging Over The 'zerker 'frame


Yg-Dosst
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Ironically enough I've had more than enough anger towards the new Berserker Warframe coming out. I've calmed considerably and can now express my complaints calmly and logically.
I'm going to have to be "that guy" and leak it to everyone as the format of the Council Board typically prevents us from being heard (we are not allowed to create our own threads and are forced to post in a thread 30+ pages long)

Before you ask, yes the Berserker is going to be female.
PMS jokes aside, that's not what I'm complaining about.

The council has had minimal influence on her and I think it would be for the best to take the liberty to express myself in the early stages of her development.

Both her appearance and declared abilities are terrible from a design stand-point. I apologize DE if you find any of this insulting, I am merely trying to help improve the circumstances and lead to a better Warframe. I dearly love this game and everything it stands for, as is why I wanted to have a say in it.

The topic of her appearance is easiest to tackle, so let's begin with that:
v5ok.png
Let me first say what DE did right:
The idea behind her design was that she was in Mid-Corpus dissection during her escape, as was said in the stream today. They want her to appear "Skinless" as a defining feature akin to Ember's thighs and Trinity's lobster butt.
They made her skinless, because as a berserker she doesn't wear armor or care to protect herself, this being multiplied to the Nth degree by not only lacking armor completely, but also skin.
This is good because it displays her muscles and there for plays into the berserker role very nicely, it also makes her stand out and easy to tell apart even when recolored.

Also the broken restraints on the arms add mass and weight behind her hits, and shows that she is too powerful to be properly contained. Not only that, but even if they were not beneficial to the theme of the 'frame, it would probably require too much unnecessary effort to remove, considering the depth in which the arm and gauntlet meshes are fused together.

What DE did WRONG, is not as much of a personal opinion as it is pointing out contradictions in the design.
This is what needs to be fixed.

1.) She has no upper body mass. DE is not showing or displaying strength and "rip and tear" rage with shoulders and biceps that small and shriveled. I agree that it should not be made into a flesh rhino with breasts. I would say that she needs to have slightly more or equal the amount of mass Trinity has. They just need more emphasis on the muscle behind the upper arms, shoulders, collar bone, and her abdominal/oblique region, as we all know that the core of a fist fighter is actually one of the most important regions.

Edit: These are the two primary section that seem to have a LACK of detail in that region, the Shoulders and the Abdomen. They are essentially white space on the frame. Adding the musculature here keeps the amount of detail even throughout the frame akin to the other Warframes, (Nova is supposed to represent a porcelain doll, and she has less "blank space" then this concept) while emphasizing a fit, lean strength.

Edit-2: After messing around for an hour in Paint.NET, I was able to learn to appreciate how well those "wires" on her legs blended in to look and act like tendons. Mynki is a genius. He just needs to abuse this to make the muscles more APPARENT by color-contrast, and the Zerker can look strong but still be as agile as she was before.

2.) Speaking of Collars, the headgear needs to be removed. The mask is fine, but the collar and "C-Clamp" around the head displays the exact opposite of what the shattered bracers show. Since the collar, a restraining device, is in tact it shows her as weak, and prevents you from defining the neck-collarbone region into something that looks powerful. It also limits the designs you can go with for the alt-helmets before the silhouette is changed TOO much.

Edit: I'm fine with it but only so long as the collar is considered part of the helmet or part of a Syandana. In otherwords, if the Collar and C-clamp head gear are optional, even if I have to buy an alt helmet to remove it, then it's acceptable. It'd be a cheap marketing tactic, but it'd still be an improvement on the appearance of the Frame.

3.) Make the claws apparent. This is a minor detail, one that may be impossible to fix, but the claws should be more apparent. Many people are convinced that this is a "Catwoman" war frame and that is most likely not the direction intended with this. I recognize the small size may be due to the models interacting badly with the models of guns, but something as simple as making the entire ending half of the finger part of the claw, rather than just the nail, could do wonders while maintaining the same model size.

 

If anybody is having an issue trying to depict what I mean here's my crappy Photoshop:

YjNToVk.jpg

Notice it's not much of a change.

Like I said, I love the Art direction, it just needs to not conflict itself.

Now it's still off, by a lot, because I'm not a graphical design genius. But IMO it's closer to being unleashed, unrestrained, and powerful beserker.

We want to prevent "Rip and Tear" from turning into "Me-OW" from a skinless and fleshy ragezerker.
 

What passed my mind when I saw it: "feline"

What didn't pass my mind when I saw it: "berserker"

- - -

Now to address the abilities:
Keep in mind these are NOT set in stone. They are more of concepts that already have some coding behind them. All the more reason to catch this baby in the first trimester. (If you were offended by that joke I apologize)
 

Berserker!
If you have followed any of my workshop posts recently, I have talked about the next Warframe. I wanted to give the Design Council a look at the progress of her abilities. Be warned these are ideas for abilities and nothing is set in stone yet.

Shield bash:
X% of current shields is converted into cone of damage in front of berserker. Enemies in the path of shield bash are knocked to the ground.

Intimidate:
A dual-purpose ability, targeted and radial at the same time. The targeted part of this ability allows the Berserker to shut down an enemy from far, causing them to cower in fear. The group part is a nice buff to fellow Tenno.
Targeted enemies will stop firing and moving for a period of time X secs.
Radial group buff X% armour increase to all Tenno around the berserker. X% reduction in stamina consumption.

Last Stand:
Berserker goes melee only, all melee damage is increased by X%. Berserker is invulnerable during Last Stand. Last Stand lasts for X secs. All damage done to Berserker is stored, when Last stand runs out all stored damage is dealt to the berserker unless berserker has killed all enemies around her when last stand started.

Now here is my issue: I am having a problem coming up with a 2-3 tier power that works with her other powers. So I thought I would ask for the Design Council’s help. I was hoping you guys could spur some inspiration. So please post your ideas below! Also tune into the next live stream when we give everyone a first look at the newest Warframe.

Shield Bash is glorious. Sacrificing your protection for a massive damage attack sounds great. The synergy between this and the supportive Mag and Trinity characters is phenomenal. And I love the pun of what is a standard "Warrior-class" ability. HOWEVER, this ability requires that she did not take damage before using this, which is rather counter productive but easily overlooked if the other abilities synergize. The more glaring issue is that unlike shields, health does not regenerate. She MUST have some sort of self-heal, which she lacks, if she is to be functional on the long term, against ANY level of enemy. This is also a stretch, but make it cost 0 energy; her shield are already a heafty cost and this could easily work gloriously as a "last resort" ability when you're completely tapped out, a wonderful trope of the berserker, the last ditch effort.

Intimidate does not mix well at all. The ability resembles too much like Nekros's Terrify, and honestly should be something that ONLY Nekros has. A Taunt to pull enemies TO you would be much better. The coding is already in the game to, as the Djiin's Deadly Attraction. Love the Team armor buff though, as she needs a reason to be useful on a team level, without compromising the "lone warrior" feel of the 'Zerker.

Last Stand is outright terrible. I get that you didn't want outright invulnerability, but still this is going to be just another iron skin fiasco and you know it.

(At this point it is entirely my opinion so proceed with caution.)
Now for her ult a melee only mode is absolutely necessary. But make her not use her weapons, but her claws. Since the damage types are changing, I honestly believe it should deal flat, unaltered pure damage to enemies, ignoring armor, as to prevent her for being reduced to an "Infested Specialist" like Ember and Excaibur.
This also makes balancing her easier as you do not have to deal with certain weapons being more powerful or overpowered, nor do you have to worry about glaive/kestrel interaction.
This also means it could more stably be affected by Power Strength mods.
Trust me DE, you don't need invulnerability or pseudo-invulnerabilty. And being forced to kill everything in the room in a certain time makes the killing an obligation, not a fun scenario. A massive movement, akin to Volt speed, steroid, along with being forced into using a Fourth powerful melee weapon, is all you need. The drawback is that you have to get up-close in the first place, where you'll eat a lot of damage, and the 155 energy cost (assuming Blind Rage is applied, why wouldn't it be?) If you feel compelled to give some sort of damage resistance may I suggest you spice things up a bit and use a new dodge chance instead? It's basically invulnerability, just only x% of the time and can be balanced easier that way. Keep in mind she probably has a lot of armor and an armor buff. (Even if she doesn't refect it in her appearance.)

- - -

Thank you for suffering through this wall of text, and thank you ahead of time for supporting this wonderful game.
And if DE actually does receive this message, then please at least let me know you're out there because I and a lot out there. I and a lot of the Council who care feel ignored but care deeply about this game. And while I'm not stating that "I could do better" I just want to put in the analysis of what impression -I- received upon getting the information about this character. I apologize for any previous outbursts, but I do feel very strongly about this and want to prevent players from receiving an unintended impression about this character's design as they are doing now.

Feel free to express your opinion, I would want nothing more than to have an actual discussion about her.

Thank you and keep on killing.
Also, if you agree with me hit the up-vote. It may help DE see this.
~ Yg'Dosst

hugeguts.jpg?w=584

Edited by Yg-Dosst
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Hmm..

You pointed out little bits I didn't notice that I now dislike. Then again I didn't much care for nova when the showed her off but now I like my cute little glass cannon. I'm sure by the time this ones released she'll be something wonderful. Probably.

 

 

 

 

Oooh a rainbow. -Goes in chase-

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I agree with you that the collar needs to go. It makes her look silly, when she should have some elegance. Where I don't agree with your critisism is on the upper body mass. Yes she should have a little more there but it doesn't have to be Rhino level. I imagine her as a really fast frame first and then strong. I would rather see marathon runner muscles than body builder ones. Her arms should match her legs.

Edited by Hogfather
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Hmm..

You pointed out little bits I didn't notice that I now dislike. Then again I didn't much care for nova when the showed her off but now I like my cute little glass cannon. I'm sure by the time this ones released she'll be something wonderful. Probably.

 

 

 

 

Oooh a rainbow. -Goes in chase-

It helps when you get an explanation on what was intended.

Like how Nova I'd pretty much a broken battered doll, with a few kickbacks to the 70's: Lava-lamp head, bell-bottoms, and psuedo-science of things not known (was radiation back then, now it's antimatter)

But if they don't look they way they're meant to look, then what's the point of explaining it?

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I agree with you that the collar needs to go. It makes her look silly, when she should have some elegance. Where I don't agree with your critisism is on the upper body mass. Yes she should have a little more there but it doesn't have to be Rhino level. I imagine her as a really fast frame first and then strong. I would rather see marathon runner muscles than body builder ones.

Heh... silly me. I forgot to put the "n't" on wouldn't. Sorry for the confusion but I agree with you exactly.

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Without that collar I feel she would be lacking in the neck-up weight distribution for proper design.

well like I said. It could be replaced with muscle tone and definement. Sure, NOVA got overboard on that, but it would actually fit with this character.

It wouldn't look bland or odd without the collar if there was something there that supported it in the first place. Why not something Natural and beneficial to the "feel" of a berserker like muscle?

You'd be amazed at all of the details you'd find in a human throat.

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well like I said. It could be replaced with muscle tone and definement. Sure, NOVA got overboard on that, but it would actually fit with this character.

It wouldn't look bland or odd without the collar if there was something there that supported it in the first place. Why not something Natural and beneficial to the "feel" of a berserker like muscle?

You'd be amazed at all of the details you'd find in a human throat.

I kind of like the collar, it's like whatever was restraining her she just ripped from it.

 

I suppose if I ever see it with something else I could have an opinion but as of now this is all I can picture so it feels normal.

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I really want them to amp up her muscles. She is currently the weakest looking frame IMO, and that's just weird.

Edit: Idea time! If she hulks out when her powers are used I retract all complaints (except boobie suspenders. What's up with those?).

Edited by ValhaHazred
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She looks scrawny and ugly imo. There isn't anything that says to me she's supposed to be strong, and when I think berserker I don't think of something like this. You kept saying muscles and whatnot, but where are they? I see a naked female warframe with a bondage theme. 

 

And I am VERY displeased with it.

 

In my eyes she has a LOT more in common with Nova than Ember. Ember has "bumps" on her arms and legs that (whether they are or not doesn't matter) look like muscles. Ember has a wide body (hips, shoulders) this warframe does not. Unless she undergoes some massive change between the concept and 3d model, then I don't think a whole lot of anybody will be able to look at her and say "yep, that's a berserker warframe". 

 

The restraints in general are the absolute worst part about her if I'm to be perfectly honest. Are we to believe that some sort of lore reason will prevent her from removing the junk the Corpus put on her? So she just leaves them on because she's a "stupid" berserker and doesn't care? Sure, there's similar things about our current warframes that I don't like design wise (Nova's derpy helmets) but they look like they're an actual part of their suits, so I forgive it. These parts on her stand out, and clash with her design. And... for what...? Are we even going to be able to color this stuff or are DE going to push yet more non-tintable stuff onto us?

 

If the restraints are a syandana then all is forgiven, but don't push that stuff onto us please.

 

They could've made a berserker or former prisoner without putting her in permanent restraints. Even if people are against the "Rhino female" (which I understand to a point) this warframe just looks.... tiny and frail.

 

And can I just say for the record that I find the whole "Design Council" to be an incredibly flawed concept? Just because people can and did pay money doesn't mean they have good ideas or their opinions are somehow more valuable. By limiting early feedback to a small group of people what you end up with is a tunnel vision design of like/dislike while the rest of the community has no say. 

 

I would have loved to see what would've happened to Nova's skillset if it were publicly announced with requests for feedback.

Edited by DavidSPD
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I swear that 4th needs to change.

 

It is so bad. It will be hated because it's a bad idea.

 

Her 2nd is useless as well because it has no point in solo play.  Nekros does it better and it needs to change.

Edited by Anarties
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Yeah no sorry.

 

That's a bruiser not a berserker lol.

You act like there's a distinction. In popular culture a Berserker is a really angry big meaty dude wearing animal skins. The historically accurate Berserker is a drugged up Viking with PTSD, incidentally also a big meaty dude wearing animal skins.

I'm happy it's a femmeframe, but would it have killed them to keep the "big meaty" part? We already had 7 supermodels, it's time for another GD body-type.

That frame does not look capable of this: "His (Odin's) men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them. This was called Berserkergang."

Like I said I like the raw skinless look, the claws and restraints are fine, but skinny? Skinny is S#&$ty.

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You act like there's a distinction. In popular culture a Berserker is a really angry big meaty dude wearing animal skins. The historically accurate Berserker is a drugged up Viking with PTSD, incidentally also a big meaty dude wearing animal skins.

I'm happy it's a femmeframe, but would it have killed them to keep the "big meaty" part? We already had 7 supermodels, it's time for another GD body-type.

That frame does not look capable of this: "His (Odin's) men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them. This was called Berserkergang."

Like I said I like the raw skinless look, the claws and restraints are fine, but skinny? Skinny is S#&$ty.

Please give me a link of real life berserkers being overly buff people that went into battle.

 

Show me where it said that they were buff. 

 

If you can do that, then you prove that you are not putting your personal preference into your reasoning.

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Real life =/= video games

That's not my point.

 

Everyone is talking about a berserker and comparing it to a bruiser like the berserker is supposed to be a giant hulk.

 

The key of a berserker is rage, not strength.

 

Everyone makes it seem like her being muscular is a mandate when it is not.

 

He brought up facts about berserkers in real life, I know a tiny bit about it and asked him to present information of them needing to be buff.

 

 As far as I know no such fact exists that mandates them being muscular like Rhino.

 

So why should it exist?

 

It should not.

 

Please understand the argument before you enter it.

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Why can't we frie...

Whoops, Everything would be so easy if they didn't give her the berserker title, just the next female frame. Problem arise when labels are put on frame/people. (True story bro)

 

I like the concept but know it is still concept, I'll hold off my opinion till I see the model in-game. We don't need it to be overly buff, I much prefer a lean body type.

 

Now the powers on the other hand, I like shield bash but the other two not so much. I don't know how last stand will fair in mid to end game. It could be a suicide button and wonky mechanics.

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Why can't we frie...

Whoops, Everything would be so easy if they didn't give her the berserker title, just the next female frame. Problem arise when labels are put on frame/people. (True story bro)

 

I like the concept but know it is still concept, I'll hold off my opinion till I see the model in-game. We don't need it to be overly buff, I much prefer a lean body type.

 

Now the powers on the other hand, I like shield bash but the other two not so much. I don't know how last stand will fair in mid to end game. It could be a suicide button and wonky mechanics.

Her 4th is a suicide button.

 

Combine that with the fact that you can face over 100 enemies in one room and you have yourself a waste of a 4th ability.

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