Why players are starting to check out

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

Yea I apologize, we'll just agree to disagree. 

I enjoy the game, sorry don't know what else to say. 

I'm sorry if you played the game for a long time and saw it change too much. But I've only been playing a little over a year, so I'm not as critical of every facet, but I do understand your points, I just don't have an answer to satisfy you. 

I read someone's answer about the game Terraria....googled the game....took one look and said no lol. I grew up playing games that looked like that....I need something that looks more modern. 

I've also played other games that I feel have way more flaws than warframe, so maybe I'm just used to something "worse" lol. I dont know. 

I played a game before this with way more restrictions, with actual forced monetization and had a subscription model that if wasn't always on, basically capped your inventory, the content you played, and your in-game money. 

In warframe I can safely farm plat, walk away from the game and know it will still be there. None of my progress will be hindered in any way and that is important to me. All the costs of warframe are upfront, and afterwards you can coast at your own leisure. Once you get a mod, you have it and it will always be there. I don't constantly have to upgrade all my gear because content came out that invalidates my old gear.

[Althaline]

33 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

I don't constantly have to upgrade all my gear because content came out that invalidates my old gear.

I think this is one of the most important aspects of Warframe. It's a game you can just pick up and put down whenever, a trait that very few online games share. However, it is this very trait that causes people to feel "content drought" much more severely. Without the 3 day level grind and 3 week gear grind to pad out each update, veterans reach the end of the new content much faster than they would in other games. I am one of the people who is willing to take that trade every time, but there are many who disagree.

[master_of_destiny]

So, cards on the table here.  I respect that DE is doing what they are doing with content.  Specifically, items from today and items from three years ago are still relevant and viable in the game.  They are very dedicated to making sure that power creep doesn't kill 90% of the old stuff.

 

Taking this into consideration, there are problems.  Let's take a quick look at some of the goofiest stuff.  Opticor Vandal, Karyst Prime, and my favorite the Braton series.  

Opticor Vandal is unlike all the other Vandals.  It isn't a base stat upgrade, it's functionally a completely different weapon.  The high damage is curtailed, the critical and stat chances have a slight boost, but all of this really comes down to a 40% damage at 30% of the charge time equation.  It's even goofier to think that because mods scale off of base charge time you can see much greater charge reduction on the base version, and 50% charge allows for 50% of the damage.  Basically, the two guns have similar damage outputs, accounting for the other improvements, and the primary reason to choose the Vandal is simply more shot output in less time.  That's...baffling when all other Vandals are slight improvements consistently.

Karyst is a mess.  It hits harder than the base, but is so much slower that it isn't funny.  The net result is that unless you're going for a finisher build there are infinitely better options out there.  This is another instance where the prime is not better, but fundamentally shifted to offer something different.

The Braton series composes 4 weapons.  The mk-1, standard, prime, and vandal.  What a ride here.  The mk-1 is trash, and it should be.  It's an introduction, and offers players an obvious step from being just awakened, to accessing real effective weaponry.  The standard is low tier, but serviceable in the early game.  The Prime and Vandal split the difference here.  One focuses more on crit, the other on status.  It's a convenient way to show players how weapons can be different, but good, assuming that you can get insanely lucky on the drops for the Vandal.  

 

What about the successes?  Well, my favorites are the Pyrana Prime, the Athodai, and the Mara Detron.  

Pyrana Prime offers you the chance to go phantasm guns akimbo.  It took a great weapon, and allows it to be amazing.  No huge statistical increases, the old one is still a viable beast and only requires access to a dojo lab, and all around does the parallel but better thing without simply making bigger numbers.  The balance is the required kill count, and the relatively small ammo pool and timer on the phantasmal gun.

The Athodai is a fun thought experiment.  Imagine if you took a meh weapon, like the Lato, and bumped up the fire rate.  Not great, but interesting.  Now imagine that you slotted in the Arcane Pistoleer bonus as a base ability.  That's functionally the Athodai.  It's not a great gun, but it's a single wield weapon with only moderate stats that is interesting.  I don't choose to use it, but there's definitely a reason to use it.

The Mara Detron is the definition of a niche weapon.  It's not a great statistical upgrade to the base, but it does allow you to proc status 100%.  It doesn't so huge damage, but that utility makes the weapon a great choice.  Not overpowered on its own, but a very helpful addition to someone looking to do something very specific.

 

I started with positivity, but have to end on a rather wry note.  That constant power cap is a rather large problem for warframe, and the fact that power can be modded into items means there won't ever be a way to balance anything across its entire spectrum.  If you'd like an example, see the fact that PvP is devoid of anything that adds base strength.  This is why we don't have primed elemental mods for all 4 damage types on all weapons, and why something like archwing feels terrible.  Archwing mods don't scale in the same way as regular ones, and it's goofy.  187% for primed archgun damage (rubedo barrel), but only 100% for the base means 87% more damage for 5/11ths increase in cost.  

Let's forget that though.  Let's just focus on standard weapons.  Velox, Korrudo, Akarius, and Acceltra.  It's picking on Gauss here, but three of these four weapons are so bland that nobody seems to use them after leveling up.  The fourth is great, but was built around a bad ammo quantity to prevent it from being insanely good.  None of these items are easy to acquire, as bits drop from either multiple areas or at surprisingly low percentage rates.  Despite this difficulty in acquiring them, they're largely forgotten about because things that are easier to acquire have more convenience or power.  

 

This is where warframe fails.  Completionists want all of the things, so grind.  Grinding burns people out, especially as drop chances get worse.  Casuals don't want to kill 50+ of a rare enemy type, so check out.  Warframe is badly split between these two groups.  The Hema requires a huge grind, where I can buy a blue print for the soma with credits.  The Braton Vandal requires a grind of ESO, but passively playing through the relic grind will award you the parts for a Braton Prime likely before you get the things you're actually grinding for.  DE wants all players.  That's great, but not possible.

As demonstrated here, there are people who appreciate 20 hour boss battles.  There are people who hate the requirement for hours a day just to be viable in game.  DE hasn't decided whether they are a Korean MMO, or pay to win, or they're "free to play done right."  That drives people away, and it's not good for the game.  I care about it, and thus raise alarms when things are not looking great.  You're welcome to believe that it's fine.  You're welcome to want the balance to move more casual or more hard core.  I just want to see DE release something that doesn't glitch out, polarize the player base more than black licorice, and wind up making it more and more difficult to want to pay them for their work.  

Who knows though?  We still have a sentient open world, or the duviri paradox open world, or whatever is left.  I just want to be able to drop this game again, without reasonably fearing that logging back in in 2022 will either reveal a Fallout 76 style real money pit, or "cannot connect to server" errors that will never be fixed.

[Lemon]

17 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

 However, it is this very trait that causes people to feel "content drought" much more severely. Without the 3 day level grind and 3 week gear grind to pad out each update, veterans reach the end of the new content much faster than they would in other games.

You  can have both you know, having one does not exclude the other. The issue is the core loop is rotten, its much better to adress this as early as possible rather than keep letting it fester. It has been rotting for a while now too. It's not about having activities to do, its about the activity not being fun anymore due to changes over time.

Reasons to play Warframe:

1.grind thing i want in my collection

2.new update has some story and eye/ear-candy to it

notice the lack of "i want to just log in to do a fun/enjoyable thing" i would even argue most people who got their Railjacks beefed up through the early grind was in preparation for content that has not come and probably wont come for another year and to top it all off they made it all easier so it was pointless

get gun/see story; leave

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark

[Althaline]

3 hours ago, Lemon said:

You  can have both you know, having one does not exclude the other.

That's not how mutual exclusivity works. There are other online games that I used to play, but haven't for several years. If I were to rejoin now, there would be days of meaningless fetch quests and outdated "endgame" before I could actually participate again. Warframe doesn't inflict that on me, and I truly appreciate that.

[Lemon]

52 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

That's not how mutual exclusivity works. There are other online games that I used to play, but haven't for several years. If I were to rejoin now, there would be days of meaningless fetch quests and outdated "endgame" before I could actually participate again. Warframe doesn't inflict that on me, and I truly appreciate that.

And there are multiple games that do both without any real issues, i see what you mean but you are plain wrong if you think you cant have both.

Steel path could very much provide that, the problem isn't that steel essence is too grindy or low droprate although people direct their frustration in that direction, many would be fine if it took a week or month of casual farming to acquire some of the cosmetics. If only the actual activity of grinding in and of itself was fun, i wouldn't mind logging on just to do that.

Warframe being a game that should only be interesting when a big update drops is just something i'm never going to agree with.

Combat has changed drastically with each big update and its no longer fun, shuffling numbers around isn't going to change that. This is about why core-community population numbers are in danger, not casual tourists. Although the idea that there's an infinite sea of casual tourists out there that isn't going to say "i played that big update and it was meh" with every new "big" thing slowly declining in upticks per update is hubris on par with Icarus.

[VanFanel1980mx]

On 2020-08-14 at 9:34 PM, Sevek7 said:

But the entirety of Warframe can be beaten extremely effectively by simply holding W and mashing E. So when I'm grinding, I feel that grind. I feel it hard.

And then DE's solution is just to make the enemies beefier, soon enough all enemies will have Treasurer's level of tankyness.

[master_of_destiny]

On 2020-08-17 at 3:45 AM, kaotis said:

I'm probably 450 runs in ESO zone8 ... stil mising 1 pice for the lato and braton .... this point is spot on the money. Good focus farm do ...

 

You are correct both open worlds weren't designed for long term use... as a lev 29 i honestly don't realy have a reason to visit any of them if they don't add content to them (like the primary kitguns for example)... we are still mising dual katanas from PoE (if memory serves me, they promised it in some devstream that it will be added there) ...not to mention dual handed saw , more mele+side arm weapon combos ....

I think you are being a bit mean here with this point, they do fix a lot of bugs (granted they are the ones that create them because of poor coding practices but stil) like the kitgun primary guns with the autorecharge. That bug was with the secondary versions as well (they fixed it) then forgot to put hte good version in the primary (bad coding practices) ... then they remembered and re-re-fixed the problem.

Comparing DE(170 people acording to wikipedia <--- i haven't found a better reference for the nr of people there) that proly have like 20 dedicated coders? with a big studion of 300+ devs that are proly 30-40% only coders is not realy fare.

What i mean to say is, no one wants to put out a poor product, they are doing the best their abilities can do. Not excusing them in any way, i stil finde it offensive that they needed like 3 ish years to code a toggle for hard mode ....wich as originaly promised was only a level boost out of the gate and would have took proly 1 h max to put in the game

Players and content creators alike have left or have started to expand the content to other games because WF isn't puting food on the table for them .

 

Here are some worlds from a rank 29 that has been playing for a while now: the new player experience is lacking a lot, new players dont' know what to do after finishing the tutorial, the game has more mechanics in place than even path of exile (a game that DE in several ocasions have mentioned and aparetly have tried to mimic) . Drop chanses until you reach like rank 10-12 is seem good, ofc this is when you use mostly core game resources and the like... after mr 20 ish and you start to go for a 100% completion you will start to finde the 2% , 5% drop chanses... and be like... why the *** some one tought it was a good idea to put this ?  I have been trying to get players to come back / start playing for a while now... results : after rank 9 they mostly leave after seeing they have 40 sub mechanics( exageration but stil, a lot of things to keep track of) that they should think about.

Only departments the game has actualy improved are visual and technical (as in less game breacking bugs ) if engaging with older content... new content has alwais had bugs for the first 2 weeks or more (right railjack ? )

I'd like to cut all of this discussion down to a single point.  The community expects things of DE because they promise them.  Let's look at two case studies, to figure things out.

 

Hello Games and DE functioned in much the same way.  Huge initial promises, media coverage, and the delivery was not as promised.  In the case of DE more promises are constantly being made on streams, where they can talk about things that are pre-alpha concepts as though they'll be in the next update.  Looking at you infested heavy blade (became a skin), ghoul chainsaw (still waiting), and Zephyr Deluxe skin (the perennial joke).  Now, Hello Games released and went silent.  Crap was slung constantly, but they pumped out updates.  Updates that generally are good, and delivered some, but not all, of what was promised.  This is digging yourself a hole of PR, then working out of it.  It requires that you stop promising things that are coming, and that your next release is stable enough to not drag things backwards.

 

What about successful management of a constantly evolving game?  Well, let's look at Re-Logic.  That's right, terraria again.  Let's recount the history.  Game is hacked, and releases "early" a bit buggy and content bare.  The farthest you can get is hellstone, and you've got a few bosses to liven up the game.  Then comes the updates.  The updates have a release schedule, deliver content 85% or better bug free, and constantly introduce new systems into the game.  Over time, Terraria gets ports to multiple platforms.  This includes cellphones, the consoles, and the mainline PC release.  Given the disparate platforms, the ports are contracted to outside companies to make sure everything is working.  This has led to some disparity in revisions and content, but things all eventually match up.  What about keeping hype for the game years later?  Well, the developer has a website and forums.  They announce updates, and provide pictures and video of working items.  That's right, they demonstrate working features to drive hype.  The Terraria team, all of them, number less than 10.

Let's further praise them.  Like every developer, they experience feature creep and delays.  When they do they announce delays as they come, and the community doesn't crucify them.  Why is that?  Well, 5+ years of releasing stuff that is good is a strong indication that whatever does release will be great. How does Terraria create evergreen content?  It doesn't.  There is a well defined point where you can have the best gear, the best modifiers, and have all the items.  Why keep playing then?  Two reasons, the gear is locked, and cannot be modded to be more powerful than the minor modifiers allow.  This means bosses are beefy, but there's no bullet sponges and thus always challenge without simply higher numbers (what warframe players call bullet sponges).  Likewise, Terraria embraced modding.  This means that infinite content can be generated from the community, kind of like Fallout 4 and Skyrim. 

Warframe couldn't support community mods though, because it requires a consistent base.  Except, no.  Halo proved otherwise more than a decade ago with multiplayer in 1 defining it in 2.  The answer is community created game modes against enemies like Rathuum offers.  That's enemies with unique skills, and game modes where players can compete without directly being death match (because the game itself was never balanced for it).  What does my suggestion look like, King of the Hill.  Tenno team gets a "king" who carries a datamass and locked melee weapon, with operator form disabled.  Team competes to keep the king alive, and rewards are given over time.  Multiple stage missions, like the ability for captures to become exterminates.  Fill in the blanks here, with whatever you might desire.  If this was on a separate planet, DE gets a free testing ground that is evergreen and doesn't require completely restructuring nodes like all previous events did.

 

 

So here's the crux.  DE hasn't learned how to deal with things in almost a decade of warframe.  They are still making promises on live streams, that they shouldn't.  They're not managing the community, but their greatest problem is that their eventual delivery falls so far short of the promises with such consistency that it's a meme.  Primed Salt and Soon aren't things that a developer should take as a joke, but it seems like this is an acceptable situation.  No matter how big or small the team, this it a significant problem that no content patch will fix.

 

As a counter example to this, let me cite Rebecca.  After the Old Blood-Railjack-Scarlet Spear debacle she came to a stream, noted the failure to deliver, and told the community that DE was working on fixes.  Real fixes, such as the lack of insta-kill Liches, significant railjack economy changes, and most importantly lots of bug stomping.  That was an excellent showing of a developer aware of their failures, not blaming any criticism as "toxic players," and genuinely working to make things better.  Like back when the player base was about 10k people, and content came in much smaller amount, more frequently, and with community feedback that was negative being addressed rather than labelled "toxic" and ignored until a catastrophic feedback loop creates constant player bleed.  The community response team may have problems, but without them warframe would have died a while ago.

[lemonforest]

On 2020-08-14 at 8:43 PM, master_of_destiny said:

a lot of stuff

I'll be honest when I say that I didn't read most of your post but, given your username, I thought I would mention that I am a huge fan of how Destiny 2 handles open world areas. I've since quit playing it for other reasons but I strongly believe that they nailed it by with the client/server-p2p hybrid system.

p.s. sorry about trimming your quote. It really was a lot of stuff.

[(XBOX)AMONGTHEWEAK]

When ambitions don't live up to dreams. You gotta shoot for something, even if sometimes you miss the target completely, eventually you'll hit something. 

 

[Tesseract7777]

And here I am coming back. 

There is a big problem with the premise of the thread: Evidence.

There is no proof the game is losing players. And for the last time, public steam statistics mean pretty much jack all and are a poor snap shot of some of the games activity. 

That's why I hate these kind of threads. The OP keeps arguing with people that it is simple fact that the game is losing players, but has no proof. This entire thread is a pointless exercise in uselessness because no side is going to be able to prove whether the game is really losing people/gaining people at any serious rate or not. 

Because only DE has all the internal numbers and for industry reasons are not sharing them with the public at large.

There are lots of things that could be done to make the game better and it is good to give that feedback, but I tire of people acting like they have some kind of inner look at all of DE's financials and assets and projections and internal players tracking statistics when they don't. You DON'T KNOW that the game is losing players, argue with me that you do until you are blue in the face, You. Don't. Know. You have an as yet unproven theory that it is, a theory you are almost certainly not going to be able to prove. You believe to your own satisfaction, and that's good enough for you and anyone who already wants to believe what you said, but it's not evidence. 

[(PSN)MYKK678]

49 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

And here I am coming back. 

There is a big problem with the premise of the thread: Evidence.

There is no proof the game is losing players. And for the last time, public steam statistics mean pretty much jack all and are a poor snap shot of some of the games activity. 

That's why I hate these kind of threads. The OP keeps arguing with people that it is simple fact that the game is losing players, but has no proof. This entire thread is a pointless exercise in uselessness because no side is going to be able to prove whether the game is really losing people/gaining people at any serious rate or not. 

Because only DE has all the internal numbers and for industry reasons are not sharing them with the public at large.

There are lots of things that could be done to make the game better and it is good to give that feedback, but I tire of people acting like they have some kind of inner look at all of DE's financials and assets and projections and internal players tracking statistics when they don't. You DON'T KNOW that the game is losing players, argue with me that you do until you are blue in the face, You. Don't. Know. You have an as yet unproven theory that it is, a theory you are almost certainly not going to be able to prove. You believe to your own satisfaction, and that's good enough for you and anyone who already wants to believe what you said, but it's not evidence. 

 ^ This ^

 

The entire thread is all opinion. No matter how much posts are sugar-coated as "Facts" they're not. Only a Dev could possibly back up any of the outlandish information, and don't even get me started on the "case studies".

Covid's still around. We're all down and bored and fed up. I get it. Please don't let that turn into the type of Arrogance required to believe yourself the only one who knows what's wrong with the game or how to fix it OP. You don't. Different people have different tastes, its how we're individual. You can speak for you and on behalf of people you have permission from, but not for me or anyone else here. Feedbacks always important to every single game, hell to every job, but progress is made by listening to all, not just one. A consensus, not by who is shouting the loudest.

If you want to do this right then get this shut down and start a new thread Asking why people feel its happening, not Telling.

Thats the type of thread the Devs can actually put to use.

[Lemon]

And here's the local brown nosing dissent patrol hit squad ready to take out another discussion over semantics👏

It should be blatantly obvious to anyone that anything stated is an opinion from the individual that writes it from their own perspective out of their own experiences. If you don't think its true then that's fine but stop telling people to shut up, you don't have the stats to argue the opposite so you cant even prove them wrong either.

🥱 self righteous types are annoying so that's me done with this thread, let this be a testament to how dying canaries are ignored

[Tesseract7777]

20 minutes ago, Lemon said:

And here's the local brown nosing dissent patrol hit squad ready to take out another discussion over semantics👏

It should be blatantly obvious to anyone that anything stated is an opinion from the individual that writes it from their own perspective out of their own experiences. If you don't think its true then that's fine but stop telling people to shut up, you don't have the stats to argue the opposite so you cant even prove them wrong either.

🥱 self righteous types are annoying so that's me done with this thread, let this be a testament to how dying canaries are ignored

I know your forum warrior archetype well, it's a pretty boring and standard variant. I could break down the silliness of this whole post but I'd rather just go play my favorite game instead, so I will lol. 

[True_Naeblis]

I came here for the space ninja parkour power fantasy. I put up with the grind because it allowed me to get all the weapons, frames, and mods I needed to enjoy that power fantasy. I stayed because the lore was a fun bit of glue holding that all together. Then DE decided grind would be the paramount feature of everything they released, all the while continually neglecting bug fixes and player feedback.

Why would I pay to grind mindlessly? DE lost what made this game great and unique. I can find grind in 10,000 other titles. I was here for the space ninjas wrecking everything in the solar system. Now everything wrecks you and any bit of fun players discover with interesting synergies DE nerfs into the ground.

That's aside from DE attacking certain content creators while giving the pass to others who blatantly break the rules and banning long time players over trivial issues. Why would I pump dollars into an account only to have DE ban me without recourse because someone was in a bad mood?

There's really not much worth playing Warframe for anymore if you don't live for grinders, and I don't.

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, Tesseract7777 said:

And here I am coming back. 

There is a big problem with the premise of the thread: Evidence.

There is no proof the game is losing players. And for the last time, public steam statistics mean pretty much jack all and are a poor snap shot of some of the games activity. 

That's why I hate these kind of threads. The OP keeps arguing with people that it is simple fact that the game is losing players, but has no proof. This entire thread is a pointless exercise in uselessness because no side is going to be able to prove whether the game is really losing people/gaining people at any serious rate or not. 

Because only DE has all the internal numbers and for industry reasons are not sharing them with the public at large.

There are lots of things that could be done to make the game better and it is good to give that feedback, but I tire of people acting like they have some kind of inner look at all of DE's financials and assets and projections and internal players tracking statistics when they don't. You DON'T KNOW that the game is losing players, argue with me that you do until you are blue in the face, You. Don't. Know. You have an as yet unproven theory that it is, a theory you are almost certainly not going to be able to prove. You believe to your own satisfaction, and that's good enough for you and anyone who already wants to believe what you said, but it's not evidence. 

Do you read?  I'd ask, but apparently not.  Why?  Well the numbers were quoted.  

 

Too lazy to check, here's the website link for the steam chart.  Again, what I specifically stated to be using because there is no other clear source.  https://steamcharts.com/app/230410

 

Too lazy to read that.  Let's graph it for you.  R² = 0.8414, a relatively strong correlation given the shown variations due to content drops.  y = 4E-12x5 - 8E-07x4 + 0.0699x3 - 3006.7x2 + 6E+07x - 6E+11

 

Warframe Steam Numbers

 

Let's talk financials, because you can't be asked to do that either.  http://leyoutech.com.hk/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/2019-Annual-Report.pdf

Note, PoE growth, Fortuna Decay, Railjack was a bad year.  

 

 

 

Let's talk about the stupidity of plugging our ears, because it isn't what we want to hear.  You're too lazy to do the research available, so fine.  That doesn't mean it isn't easy to find.  While you claim that "there aren't numbers for consoles," I'd like to suggest that it's a stupid argument.  Why?  Well, interpret consoles from what data we have, which is the earnings report.  If the consoles were growing they'd basically create a net zero on the financials.  This means that the net result is negative, and they are thus either maintaining numbers or also decaying.

 

Your only argument here is to argue that a different polynomial would be a better trend for the data.  Fine.  I'll argue that the last 24 months with a linear regression points down.  Why not use peak player count instead of average?  Average removes peaks and valleys to represent a better number, that doesn't get muddy due to things like forced down times (ie updates).  It also evens out regional peak times.  

 

At this point, you've thrown down the "I have no evidence gauntlet," because I didn't give you everything.  Fine.  It's been brought and delivered with a bow.  How about instead of the "I don't want to talk" response, you provide even a tiny modicum of effort.  Your argument is useless as the already discussed "I don't get statistics."  Thank you for playing, and defending something through raw inability to check basically available facts.

[master_of_destiny]

2 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

 ^ This ^

 

The entire thread is all opinion. No matter how much posts are sugar-coated as "Facts" they're not. Only a Dev could possibly back up any of the outlandish information, and don't even get me started on the "case studies".

Covid's still around. We're all down and bored and fed up. I get it. Please don't let that turn into the type of Arrogance required to believe yourself the only one who knows what's wrong with the game or how to fix it OP. You don't. Different people have different tastes, its how we're individual. You can speak for you and on behalf of people you have permission from, but not for me or anyone else here. Feedbacks always important to every single game, hell to every job, but progress is made by listening to all, not just one. A consensus, not by who is shouting the loudest.

If you want to do this right then get this shut down and start a new thread Asking why people feel its happening, not Telling.

Thats the type of thread the Devs can actually put to use.

Congratulations, you don't get it.

 

I don't need the developer numbers, and your argument is stupid.  Why?  Well, the good old phrase is follow the money.

 

Am I arrogant, telling DE why people could be angry?  No, just like you aren't arrogant for saying that you're willing to kill 1407 eidolons (just the Hydrolyst, 3 times that for an actual number) for a 50% chance to get a maxed arcane.  Am I arrogant in doing the math?  If you don't understand why it matters, then I'd suggest you never gamble.  

 

What about arrogance in presuming bad things are afoot?  Well, follow the money.  DE had consistent gains until PoE, which was a good year.  They then entered into a decay.  2018 was a down year, but still positive.  2019 was negative.  2020 isn't looking great from the acquisition news.  So, is it arrogant to tell people why their game is losing ground?  If you think so, then why even have a forum?  Why not just have a locked twitter feed for official announcements?

 

 

Now, let me guess at what you really mean.  "I like this game, and think everything is fine."  You are more than welcome to believe that.  I know of people who thought the same think for Law Breakers, and any number of other games of their ilk.  Everything is great until the day it isn't.  Why then do I even bother talking?  Well, I like Warframe.  It's current state is pretty depressing, namely that the player counts are decaying and the developer is, as evidenced by any monkey with a keyboard can find, losing their player's money.  I intend to communicate to the developers why, and did so with numerical calculations for the bad RNG.  I did not numerically provide information about why the open worlds are failing, but it's easy to ascertain with the financials in-hand.  Heck, I didn't even accuse DE of being a blatantly pay to win gambling provider.  To do so I'd need only the data from the riven marketplace, that was scraped to try and stop the riven black market that was going on mere months ago with DE's tacit approval.  I say tacit because despite understanding it, they didn't take any action to stop it until it was proven that scraped data could track the market and price fixing.

So let's recap.  I believe that ignorance is not an excuse.  You have access to the financials, an approximation of user base for Steam, and can therefore generally extrapolate the general health of the game across all platforms.  If this were 2017 you could rightly tell me to stuff it.  The huge media blitz ended that year well.  If it were 2018, the numbers were flagging but not that concerning.  Unfortunately it's 2020.  2019 was a bad year, 2020 has not been good (extrapolated from player count, as financials are not yet out).  It's also heavily rumored that a company bearing much in common with a dime is in talks to acquire things.  Unsubstantiated rumors, but rumors with more weight than wisps.

 

My goal is to communicate back to DE what sucks, and why.   Inductively, 5% drop chances mean one per 20 runs.  21 required is 21*20=420 eidolon runs and you've got the drop, right?  Nope, your brain is not good at this kind of math.  It didn't evolve that way.  It's therefore time we had a reckoning about crap drop chances, and why their use to pad out  engagement time kills player desire to complete missions.  It's time to discuss reverting to old content delivery, because without huge media blitzes the open worlds are failing hard.  Most of all it's time to discuss the bug fixing and how to retain players.  The constant answer of "we need more content" overlooks the obvious answer that "content needs to be accessible and not a punitive measure to earn."  

What do I mean?  Quellor, Pennant, and Korrudo drop from rare or singular enemies with single digit drop rates.  Acceltra and  Akarius both require 500+ drop instances to insure their drop because they drop at 1.25%.  That's in excess of 125 rounds of disruption.  The reasonable amongst us have already noted that these are all post PoE drops...let's do some math on the pre-PoE stuff.  Oberon's the obvious choice...and is 1% for all pieces to drop (meaning fractional percent chances for each).  The counter argument is that the amount of eximus units slain on a single mission can often be in excess of a couple hundred.  I'm not talking a long one, simply a mission with eximus stronghold modifier.  I have gotten two full oberon sets (and change) from a mission.  I've done more than 40 captures in a disruption mission and gotten neither the acceltra nor the akarius.  That's pretty compelling evidence for engagement via grind rather than content, and it's an issue for the long term health of the game.

 

What about the past?  I only cited Oberon, but the Hema and Sibear are just as bad.  Yep.  4+ years, and there's two shining examples of garbage.  Garbage because their grind doesn't come close to their value.  I've regularly cited them as being bad, DE acknowledged they were bad but decided not to fix the economy because "players would be unhappy who already did the grind," and here we are today looking at the railjack refund and scratching our collective heads.  Oh right, railjack is a new content island and if engagement is too low it'll tank numbers.  The Hema and Sibear represent less than 1/4 of one percent of the weapons each, so their bad grind can stand....or you can buy them.

 

 

 

Perhaps you have a better reason things are fine.  It hasn't been provided.  Perhaps you have something more than a disagreement because I didn't spoon feed you the answers.  Challenge accepted, and I hope the spoon didn't make you gag.  Perhaps you want to attacks me personally...I'd suggest against it given the terms of the forum.  Attack my conclusions all day, but bring something to the table to do it.  My suggestion, let's look at EA's Fifa lootboxes and drop rates.  Let's look at Fallout 76's policies.  Let's look at Anthem's mess.  It seems like everyone is searching for the spot where grind breaks retention, and trying to stay just above the line.  We as players need to tell them when the line is crossed, lest the next thing be worse.

 

 

 

----side note----

Check my player statistics.  When I started there were void keys, there wasn't such a thing as a vaulted prime, and a MR in the double digits was very high.  You'll note that this means my name existed well before Destiny the game was a thing (and before warframe as a handle elsewhere).  I don't like it.  I don't play it because it had Activision slime on it from day one.  I appreciate it is a competitor to warframe, and that it soon may eclipse it simply by not being as....inconsistent as warframe.  I mean that as the game retaining more players, rather than the peaks and valleys that content infusions create in warframe.

 

That said, I was unhappy the day Destiny was announced.  My immediate thoughts were "oh crap, some edge lord is going to call me out, like somebody who chose the name 'reaper' because it was cool."  The self fulfilling prophecy is now true.  It could have been worse though.  At least I didn't choose something including Duke Nukem Forever.  

[Althaline]

1 hour ago, master_of_destiny said:

R² = 0.8414

In terms of statistics, that's not a fantastic correlation. Either I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to do with the graph, or your equation doesn't fit it well.

[master_of_destiny]

1 minute ago, Iamabearlulz said:

In terms of statistics, that's not a fantastic correlation. Either I'm misinterpreting what you're trying to do with the graph, or your equation doesn't fit it well.

Welcome to statistics in the real world.  If you want to experiment get a copy of excel, copy the data from the website listed, and process away.

 

If you're looking at a graph which represents a function, then somewhere in the range of .95 or better is a minimum.  If you've got something insanely complex and time you can probably represent a complex system with a laplace transform.  Best of luck with this, as I hated them in my mechatronics and control systems courses.

 

Now let's talk functional real world.  Let's also talk reality.  DE's player count is a function of sudden jagged peaks when content drops, and relatively linear decays.  A sawtooth function could approximate it, but those equations are also fugly.  Most people on this kind of a forum wouldn't do the math for a 5th order polynomial (what was used), and most people in the real world simply extrapolate a line (again, math is hard and business generally doesn't respect it).

 

 

Combining this, I have a lot of data points and the .8 range of R² is a pretty strong correlation (for data without a statistical chance at being an equation).  If you were to graph Jan 2019 to July 2020, and apply a linear trend line (again, to try and compensate for the content variation) it'd show the loss of 16.66 players per day.  If you were to apply a 5th order polynomial again, it's a .4618 R² with equation y = -2E-08x5 + 0.0045x4 - 391.85x3 + 2E+07x2 - 4E+11x + 3E+15

 

Let's just say no matter the application there's a defined bleed.  Is about 17 people a day on one platform a huge loss?  You're free to decide.  Let's do some back of the hand math.  62.8K peak average, 16.66 per day, 30 days a month, that's 500 players per month.  500/62800 = 5/628 = 0.797% loss per month.  That's not bad, right?  Well, let's look at this on a yearly basis.  .796% * 3 year *12 months/year = 28.66%  Wow, it's indicating that 1 in 4 players will be shed in 3 years, based off of about 1.58 years of data.  Ouch.  That's a pretty bleak statistical construct.

 

 

What's the counter argument?  Well, 1.6 years to extrapolate 3 years is a bit shaky.  Not really unreasonable, but DE could fix this with regular content and less inconsistency in releases.  Unfortunately, the counter is that Anthem 2.0 and Destiny are back on track to compete.  The new consoles might provide a new user base....but the primary user base is basically going to shed their previous console for a new one so that's not really a gain.  Well, maybe somebody will invest in DE...that's a pipe dream and would be contingent upon getting either capital investment for a game showing financial issues (very unlikely) or an outside purchase (introducing the potential for management making the game something else).  Looks like the only viable solution is to tell the developer what we don't want, penalize them for doing it financially, and reward them when their content is good.  Our means to do this is to communicate our frustrations, stop buying platinum, quit the game, and spend money on things that are positive.  

 

So, if you don't like it, just quit.  That's what people say.  You quit, and you can't communicate the issues.  DE telling us that players experiencing burn-out should just take a break (they said this months ago) are seeing exactly what that advice provides.  That's financial ruination.  EA figured it out, but DE hasn't yet.  I hope they don't have to learn the hard way.  If they keep doing what they are doing they will.  Nothing like working at Riot Games or EA, right?  EA, the killer of studios via vampirism.  Riot, the toxic workplace with non-disclosures due to the reported nature of working there.  Oh....I think I see my point.

[Althaline]

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

statistics

Thank you for your explanation, it's good to see someone who can back up their argument and show they understand it. The level of your response here convinces me that you are serious about your points and truly wish for this game to improve, which is a lot better than can be said for most threads such as this.

 

8 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Let's just say no matter the application there's a defined bleed.  Is about 17 people a day on one platform a huge loss?  You're free to decide.  Let's do some back of the hand math.  62.8K peak average, 16.66 per day, 30 days a month, that's 500 players per month.  500/62800 = 5/628 = 0.797% loss per month.  That's not bad, right?  Well, let's look at this on a yearly basis.  .796% * 3 year *12 months/year = 28.66%  Wow, it's indicating that 1 in 4 players will be shed in 3 years, based off of about 1.58 years of data.  Ouch.  That's a pretty bleak statistical construct.

I'm going to focus on the results of your analysis here. The extrapolation is somewhat larger than one would usually appreciate, but it gives us a rough estimate. Losing 2 in 7 players every 3 years is not a good thing (shrinking populations are never good for live service games), but it still gives us a very long lifespan if nothing changes. Based on these statistics, I do believe something needs to change, but this is not the Warframe apocalypse scenario. So long as DE can deliver on promises made and continue to support the game, it is likely that player trust will return and the game's population will increase again.

[(PSN)MYKK678]

10 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Congratulations, you don't get it.

 

I don't need the developer numbers, and your argument is stupid.  Why?  Well, the good old phrase is follow the money.

 

Am I arrogant, telling DE why people could be angry?  No, just like you aren't arrogant for saying that you're willing to kill 1407 eidolons (just the Hydrolyst, 3 times that for an actual number) for a 50% chance to get a maxed arcane.  Am I arrogant in doing the math?  If you don't understand why it matters, then I'd suggest you never gamble.  

 

What about arrogance in presuming bad things are afoot?  Well, follow the money.  DE had consistent gains until PoE, which was a good year.  They then entered into a decay.  2018 was a down year, but still positive.  2019 was negative.  2020 isn't looking great from the acquisition news.  So, is it arrogant to tell people why their game is losing ground?  If you think so, then why even have a forum?  Why not just have a locked twitter feed for official announcements?

 

 

Now, let me guess at what you really mean.  "I like this game, and think everything is fine."  You are more than welcome to believe that.  I know of people who thought the same think for Law Breakers, and any number of other games of their ilk.  Everything is great until the day it isn't.  Why then do I even bother talking?  Well, I like Warframe.  It's current state is pretty depressing, namely that the player counts are decaying and the developer is, as evidenced by any monkey with a keyboard can find, losing their player's money.  I intend to communicate to the developers why, and did so with numerical calculations for the bad RNG.  I did not numerically provide information about why the open worlds are failing, but it's easy to ascertain with the financials in-hand.  Heck, I didn't even accuse DE of being a blatantly pay to win gambling provider.  To do so I'd need only the data from the riven marketplace, that was scraped to try and stop the riven black market that was going on mere months ago with DE's tacit approval.  I say tacit because despite understanding it, they didn't take any action to stop it until it was proven that scraped data could track the market and price fixing.

So let's recap.  I believe that ignorance is not an excuse.  You have access to the financials, an approximation of user base for Steam, and can therefore generally extrapolate the general health of the game across all platforms.  If this were 2017 you could rightly tell me to stuff it.  The huge media blitz ended that year well.  If it were 2018, the numbers were flagging but not that concerning.  Unfortunately it's 2020.  2019 was a bad year, 2020 has not been good (extrapolated from player count, as financials are not yet out).  It's also heavily rumored that a company bearing much in common with a dime is in talks to acquire things.  Unsubstantiated rumors, but rumors with more weight than wisps.

 

My goal is to communicate back to DE what sucks, and why.   Inductively, 5% drop chances mean one per 20 runs.  21 required is 21*20=420 eidolon runs and you've got the drop, right?  Nope, your brain is not good at this kind of math.  It didn't evolve that way.  It's therefore time we had a reckoning about crap drop chances, and why their use to pad out  engagement time kills player desire to complete missions.  It's time to discuss reverting to old content delivery, because without huge media blitzes the open worlds are failing hard.  Most of all it's time to discuss the bug fixing and how to retain players.  The constant answer of "we need more content" overlooks the obvious answer that "content needs to be accessible and not a punitive measure to earn."  

What do I mean?  Quellor, Pennant, and Korrudo drop from rare or singular enemies with single digit drop rates.  Acceltra and  Akarius both require 500+ drop instances to insure their drop because they drop at 1.25%.  That's in excess of 125 rounds of disruption.  The reasonable amongst us have already noted that these are all post PoE drops...let's do some math on the pre-PoE stuff.  Oberon's the obvious choice...and is 1% for all pieces to drop (meaning fractional percent chances for each).  The counter argument is that the amount of eximus units slain on a single mission can often be in excess of a couple hundred.  I'm not talking a long one, simply a mission with eximus stronghold modifier.  I have gotten two full oberon sets (and change) from a mission.  I've done more than 40 captures in a disruption mission and gotten neither the acceltra nor the akarius.  That's pretty compelling evidence for engagement via grind rather than content, and it's an issue for the long term health of the game.

 

What about the past?  I only cited Oberon, but the Hema and Sibear are just as bad.  Yep.  4+ years, and there's two shining examples of garbage.  Garbage because their grind doesn't come close to their value.  I've regularly cited them as being bad, DE acknowledged they were bad but decided not to fix the economy because "players would be unhappy who already did the grind," and here we are today looking at the railjack refund and scratching our collective heads.  Oh right, railjack is a new content island and if engagement is too low it'll tank numbers.  The Hema and Sibear represent less than 1/4 of one percent of the weapons each, so their bad grind can stand....or you can buy them.

 

 

 

Perhaps you have a better reason things are fine.  It hasn't been provided.  Perhaps you have something more than a disagreement because I didn't spoon feed you the answers.  Challenge accepted, and I hope the spoon didn't make you gag.  Perhaps you want to attacks me personally...I'd suggest against it given the terms of the forum.  Attack my conclusions all day, but bring something to the table to do it.  My suggestion, let's look at EA's Fifa lootboxes and drop rates.  Let's look at Fallout 76's policies.  Let's look at Anthem's mess.  It seems like everyone is searching for the spot where grind breaks retention, and trying to stay just above the line.  We as players need to tell them when the line is crossed, lest the next thing be worse.

 

 

 

----side note----

Check my player statistics.  When I started there were void keys, there wasn't such a thing as a vaulted prime, and a MR in the double digits was very high.  You'll note that this means my name existed well before Destiny the game was a thing (and before warframe as a handle elsewhere).  I don't like it.  I don't play it because it had Activision slime on it from day one.  I appreciate it is a competitor to warframe, and that it soon may eclipse it simply by not being as....inconsistent as warframe.  I mean that as the game retaining more players, rather than the peaks and valleys that content infusions create in warframe.

 

That said, I was unhappy the day Destiny was announced.  My immediate thoughts were "oh crap, some edge lord is going to call me out, like somebody who chose the name 'reaper' because it was cool."  The self fulfilling prophecy is now true.  It could have been worse though.  At least I didn't choose something including Duke Nukem Forever.  

You wasted a lot of your own time there. After the further arrogance of that first line i didn't read any of the post. Call it ignorance if it makes you feel better, i call it self respect.

I'm not sure where you think the superiority required to say that comes from, but here's some peer-to-peer advice, drop the attitude. You won't be heard, taken seriously nor given a chance if you continue thinking the way you are. Maybe it isn't Covid boredom, maybe you're just like this. I wont pity you as that's the most demeaning thing you can do to a person, but i do hope something changes for you in your life in the future. It can't be satisfying being stuck like that.

Let me know if you decide to see reason and open up the Asking thread mentioned earlier. I'll gladly have a civil debate with anyone capable of it.

 

[master_of_destiny]

31 minutes ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

You wasted a lot of your own time there. After the further arrogance of that first line i didn't read any of the post. Call it ignorance if it makes you feel better, i call it self respect.

I'm not sure where you think the superiority required to say that comes from, but here's some peer-to-peer advice, drop the attitude. You won't be heard, taken seriously nor given a chance if you continue thinking the way you are. Maybe it isn't Covid boredom, maybe you're just like this. I wont pity you as that's the most demeaning thing you can do to a person, but i do hope something changes for you in your life in the future. It can't be satisfying being stuck like that.

Let me know if you decide to see reason and open up the Asking thread mentioned earlier. I'll gladly have a civil debate with anyone capable of it.

 

Since you can't be bothered to read, but are entitled to demands, let's make a tiny list for you.  One that is so stupid, and lacks nuance, but allows people to understand a big idea in twitter post sized bites.  For simplicity's sake, you started the arrogance bit by calling me out for it.  I literally said, despite your lack of desire to read, that neither perspective is arrogant.

 

1) DE's commonly available financial reports indicate that 2017 was their best year, with 2018 decaying and 2019 being bad.  

2) As the steam player counts match roughly with the financials, 2020 is not looking to be a good year.

3) Steam player counts peaked at PoE, after relative constant growth previously.  Since then they have decayed, with content infusions being the only increases.

4) 3 years of decay has occurred.  Extrapolating the next 1.4 and change years off of the last 1.6 years, we're in for a 10+% decline in player counts.  This is based upon Steam numbers.

 

 

For those who still don't get it, DE is a game studio.  If they fix their content problems, these projections are invalidated.  This would be the "fix" that I want from them.  It would need to address a lot of what I have said, and a lot more.  It is 100% within their ability to address, without any outside interference or magical infusions of money.  

IF IT IS UNCLEAR, THIS IS MY ENDGAME.  I wrote that in caps, because apparently people think that hate is my goal.  I want to make DE aware of issues, so we can fix them and get a good game.  In the process they earn money.  It's a win-win.

 

Now, the alternative is to keep doing what has been bad for the last three years.  Why three years?  Well, PoE received a huge media blitz to sell it, numbers peaked, and since then DE hasn't had anything so grand.  Fortuna had the cinematic, but people outside of the warframe community largely ignored it.  Railjack launched during a game awards show....but the broken nature meant that a lot of people didn't engage given the overwhelming negative feedback.  This is reflected in the financials, that are publicly available.

I want DE to course correct.  I want to love this game again.  To do that we have to be real.  No ignoring things, no hatred.  Bad design based on grind needs to go away.  People accepting grind because "you can just pay to skip it" do damage to themselves and DE.  DE should be putting out content that is worth paying for, not 6 USD skins for a single weapon or frame.  

[master_of_destiny]

1 hour ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Thank you for your explanation, it's good to see someone who can back up their argument and show they understand it. The level of your response here convinces me that you are serious about your points and truly wish for this game to improve, which is a lot better than can be said for most threads such as this.

 

I'm going to focus on the results of your analysis here. The extrapolation is somewhat larger than one would usually appreciate, but it gives us a rough estimate. Losing 2 in 7 players every 3 years is not a good thing (shrinking populations are never good for live service games), but it still gives us a very long lifespan if nothing changes. Based on these statistics, I do believe something needs to change, but this is not the Warframe apocalypse scenario. So long as DE can deliver on promises made and continue to support the game, it is likely that player trust will return and the game's population will increase again.

Let's talk the extrapolation.  3 years of data, based off of 1.6.  That's functionally extrapolating 1.4 years.  It isn't 100% accurate, but based upon the content suggested (no road map or schedule) it's unlikely that based upon current plans there will be substantial changes across 2021 or the remainder of 2020.  

 

DE can fix this.  If people make it a point to tell them what is frustrating, and how to earn our money, they could quite easily rectify the issue.  Let's thought experiment this out for a moment.

Nightwave and alerts return together.  Each Nightwave introduces about 20 cosmetics, slots, and items to be earned.  It lasts for 10 weeks only, and then is gone.  Alerts get Nitain, cosmetics, variant helmets, and auras.  Nightwave gets the cosmetics, reactors, catalysts, nitain, and kuva.  Alerts are boosted to a miimum of three hours before they expire, so as to allow people to complete them.  In this way you keep artists employed 10 weeks creating content for the next 10 weeks, retain players for the daily grind with alerts, but also have longer term goals with the Nightwave.  The distribution of rewards is such that veterans want to earn the cosmetics, new players have alerts and NIghtwave, but don't have to decide between power or cosmetics, and the middle ground gets to grind for everything at their leisure.  

That's one solution, and if combined with more reasonable drop percentages, it would work.  DE no longer has you grinding for a 5% drop, because their constant engagement is being purchased with cosmetics that are relatively cheap.  Create about 100 cosmetics a year, which isn't much, and you've suddenly got the community back and constantly engaging because there are real rewards.

 

 

Let's also discuss the promises made situation.  Let's look at how DE doesn't make promises, but they are easily believed to be.  It's subtle wording, but allows for infinite change.  During a stream DE states something like, "look at this cool ghoul chainsaw, we're in the process of animating this and plan to make it a weapon in the future."  Likewise "Some things we are working on include modular archwings...."  

As people, we hear "That's a promise of future content."  Now, let's look at what it actually means.  At this exact moment we so no direct issues in this content.  At any time that can change, as our plans are fluid.  These streams are not a promise, but demonstration of what we have WIP.  In common terms, "I never said it was a promise, I just said we are working on these things."  Want backing, the infested heavy blade became just a skin.  The release of railjack was....not as demonstrated.  The ghoul chainsaw and Zephyr Deluxe....still in the void.  Despite this, they didn't really break any promises.

 

 

If I'm such a cynic, why even try.  Consider me optimistic and stupid.  I've worked for management who could stare right at problems, choose not to see them, then make it worse.  All the while, what needed to happen was for the customer to come in, highlight what we had already said, and only then could change happen.  I'm hoping to be that customer.  I'm hoping to highlight the actual math, and not inductive reasoning.  I'm also trying to highlight that there are disparities between the technical truth and what we as customers think.

All of this is to say, I want warframe to be a success.  I want DE to stop implying the moon of promises, and getting off by saying that they didn't technically break any promises.  I want them to make a myriad of little changes that will add up to a game which is much better, and to earn my money.  I want their success, so I can enjoy the game.

 

Consider me a fool, but hopefully they listen.  Hopefully the 1.4 years of projection is entirely incorrect, and through subtle changes they can bring back the player base.  As evidenced above, their are plenty of people who are unwilling to demand change.  They have their reasons, but the problem always remains that when a normal person leaves this game they don't explain.  They simply disengage.  When that's the case, tell me how likely DE is to fix anything?  How can they really be expected to fix anything?  People need to know what the problem is, because right now the sub 10% drop rates are just acceptable.  The bleed of players isn't one specific thing, when you look at the picture and see content drops generating people you inductively think more content = more engagement.  What is missed is that the engagement is being elongated by bad drop chances, which is burning players.  That new content isn't great when last time was 20%, this time is 10%, and next time it's 10% behind a 20 minutes minimum grind before you can earn any viable drops.  That's something easily obscured if all you look at is player activity with regards to content addition.

 

I realize this is all esoteric.  DE probably doesn't care about any arguments I can make.  That said, I want my last day with warframe to be with a clear head.  I took a two year hiatus because the content was lacking and buggier than a beta should be.  I claimed at the time the game was dying, based upon the anecdotal nature that my friends left the game.  I was incorrect.  Now it's not anecdote.  Now, it's hard numbers pointing to a slow bleed.  It's enough losses that will compound, and when your game requires a player base to generate content (read: join random group) you don't have to lose all of the players to die.  All you have to do is lose enough players to make random games non-viable, and the game is dead.  What is enough bleed has yet to be seen.  Is it 1 in 4, 2 in 4, 3 in 10, or any specific ratio?  I don't know.  What I can tell you is that Steel Path is showing us that without the ability to do a pick-up game a lot of the warframe magic is lost.  

[(PSN)MYKK678]

2 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Since you can't be bothered to read, but are entitled to demands, let's make a tiny list for you.  One that is so stupid, and lacks nuance, but allows people to understand a big idea in twitter post sized bites.  For simplicity's sake, you started the arrogance bit by calling me out for it.  I literally said, despite your lack of desire to read, that neither perspective is arrogant.

 

1) DE's commonly available financial reports indicate that 2017 was their best year, with 2018 decaying and 2019 being bad.  

2) As the steam player counts match roughly with the financials, 2020 is not looking to be a good year.

3) Steam player counts peaked at PoE, after relative constant growth previously.  Since then they have decayed, with content infusions being the only increases.

4) 3 years of decay has occurred.  Extrapolating the next 1.4 and change years off of the last 1.6 years, we're in for a 10+% decline in player counts.  This is based upon Steam numbers.

 

 

For those who still don't get it, DE is a game studio.  If they fix their content problems, these projections are invalidated.  This would be the "fix" that I want from them.  It would need to address a lot of what I have said, and a lot more.  It is 100% within their ability to address, without any outside interference or magical infusions of money.  

IF IT IS UNCLEAR, THIS IS MY ENDGAME.  I wrote that in caps, because apparently people think that hate is my goal.  I want to make DE aware of issues, so we can fix them and get a good game.  In the process they earn money.  It's a win-win.

 

Now, the alternative is to keep doing what has been bad for the last three years.  Why three years?  Well, PoE received a huge media blitz to sell it, numbers peaked, and since then DE hasn't had anything so grand.  Fortuna had the cinematic, but people outside of the warframe community largely ignored it.  Railjack launched during a game awards show....but the broken nature meant that a lot of people didn't engage given the overwhelming negative feedback.  This is reflected in the financials, that are publicly available.

I want DE to course correct.  I want to love this game again.  To do that we have to be real.  No ignoring things, no hatred.  Bad design based on grind needs to go away.  People accepting grind because "you can just pay to skip it" do damage to themselves and DE.  DE should be putting out content that is worth paying for, not 6 USD skins for a single weapon or frame.  

I'm not sure why you replied. It wasn't read either. From the previous post its clear that you currently cannot hold a civil debate while this "i'll tell everyone what's wrong because i know best" thread is still going.

As aforementioned, if you decide to open the correct thread let me know and i'll gladly discuss.

But we're done here. Please try to respectfully see that.

[master_of_destiny]

3 hours ago, (PS4)MYKK678 said:

I'm not sure why you replied. It wasn't read either. From the previous post its clear that you currently cannot hold a civil debate while this "i'll tell everyone what's wrong because i know best" thread is still going.

As aforementioned, if you decide to open the correct thread let me know and i'll gladly discuss.

But we're done here. Please try to respectfully see that.

High roading the conversation, while being a stubborn individual incapable of reading while demanding facts, is pretty stupid.  That's not an opinion, it's a statement of duplicity in reasoning and commentary on your choice of response.  If you wanted facts, spoon fed to you, then maybe ask for them.  Heaven forbid, maybe educate yourself.  Nope, just state that somebody is wrong because it didn't conform to your opinion.  When confronted respond like Eric Cartman.  "Screw you guys, I'm going home."  A phrase I enjoy quoting to no end.

 

Why did you even bother to engage?  There appears to be no facts which can shape your opinions.

 

 

 

You'll note evidence for your opinions is a bar apparently beneath you to provide.  You can't even acknowledge facts because you don't read.  Let me quote you, as it highlight everything:

"...Covid's still around. We're all down and bored and fed up. I get it. Please don't let that turn into the type of Arrogance required to believe yourself the only one who knows what's wrong with the game or how to fix it OP. You don't..."  

Bring up something else, miss the point of the statement (no claims as to listing everything wrong with the game), construct a strawman to attack about something else (I explained how to fix what exactly?), personal attack (I'm arrogant, but you cannot be bothered to do anything and only need to say no to be right), and then claim arrogance because you don't want to understand any indicators (financial or player count).  This is the definition of a strawman and arguing from a point of ignorance.  Textbook.

 

It's fine.  You win the argument from your perspective.  There's nothing to be won, and it's effectively allowing a game to continue to decay, but who cares?  Slow clap for you.

 

 

As an aside, I suggested one better system in my statement that DE already has, Moas.  I provided no other fixes, only outlined the issues.  You seemed to not even want to read the original post.  It's baffling that you could be so far off base, and try the high road.  Whatever though, you're free to be exploited.  If you wanted to make a reasonable reply, there are ways. 

If you decided to educate yourself the arguments you could stand on are peak player counts instead of averages, the fact that Sony and Microsoft seem to be making a case for the game, the occasional media highlights that keep coming out, the largely fair free to play model, or even focus on the fact that the game is nearly a decade old but still makes great leaps forward.  Nope, just wave your hands and scream that an opinion that doesn't agree is invalid.  No need to debunk, just deny.