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Why I believe DE is being too cautious with the Helminth system


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Good Morning,

 

Long time player, first time poster. I have been following the news for Heart of Deimos and have been eagerly awaiting the new Helminth room system, however now that we have more of the concrete details of the system I am worried. Let me start by saying that this system is a big plus for the game regardless of my concerns and I like the feature.

 

My concern ultimately stems from the limit of only being able to replace 1 ability per frame from your available library of abilities banked in the Helminth. What this has the potential to do is to pigeon-hole players into using this system in excluslively the most extreme way possible because of this limitation, for example, if players know that they can only replace one ability on their frames, they will feel forced into simply replacing the weakest ability on their frame with the strongest ability in the Helminth pool, at this early stage, it will most lilkey be Rhino Roar. Because of this, the choices players make or less likely to be informed by creative desire, overarching themes, and instead by a core power gain.

 

Let me use a real example to illustrate my point, one of my favorite frames from when I started playing was Nekros, I loved the aesthetic of the frame, and over time I got to learn how useful he is for playing the game for looting. However, from a player perspective, Nekros has 3 dead buttons that basically aren't used and generally get in the way of what he is doing. Conversely you can compare this with Mesa, who for me personally, I actively use 3/4 of Mesa's abilities as the frame is just better from an ability perspective and is useful for more content overall. So on one hand you have a frame like Nekros where you are usually only pressing 1 button, and on the other you have a frame like Mesa where you typically press at least 3 of the buttons, in my opinion this leads to dissparate gameplay quality outcomes between those frames because one of them is typically more active then the other. If the Helminth room allowed us to replace more than 1 ability per frame, perhaps 2-3 abilities per frame, then this would lessen this disparity, allowing a greater number of "boring" or "1-button" frames to have a more active playstyle. 

 

As well to go back to my earlier concern with Roar, with players limited to only replacing 1 ability, and them presumably getting pigeon-holed into simply choosing the strongest ability to overwrite their weakest, it highly restricts player choice and potentially leads to bad outcomes in the long run by having skewed data as a result of a lopsided system that forces said skewed data which could result in powerful abilities like Roar being nerfed needlessly if the system itself was simply less restrictive and gave players more of a buffer for experimentation, for instance in a world where you can only replace 1 ability most of the time Roar will come out on top, but if you even loosed the restriction to allow 2 abilities per frame, then perhaps there is a combination of abilities that exceeds what Roar could do. Also, by increasing the amount of abilities a frame can replace via Helminth, it allows players to choose more niche abilities just to try them out to see if they like them, whereas if you are limited to 1 ability, players will never even attempt to add something like Airburst in leu of Rhino Roar, since those two abilities are simply too different in terms of overall power level, but if you have a "1-button" frame like Nekros, which gives you 3 slots to change around, you allo of a sudden have a lot more room to experiment with. 

 

The next big concern players might have with my proposal is that of balance, I would say that my proposal does not actually create nearly as many balance concerns comparing replacing 1 ability vs 3 abilities, for instance, take a Nekros who has replaced 3 abilities via the current Helminth pool, and a Mesa who has replaced her 1 with Rhino Roar, which of these two setups is stronger in a vacuum for doing general content? I think Mesa is still stronger anyways, perhaps you guys have some counter examples to push back against my assumption.

 

TL DR:

To summarize, the advantages of increasing the number of abilities you can replace per warframe are:

 

Allows players to "fix" "1-Button" frames themselves until DE can correct the frame's base kit. Allows players to experiment more freely with niche abilities that otherwise don't stack up next to Rhino Roar. Faciltitates mass amounts of data collection from DE who can then parse which abilities in the pool, and which abiltiies in a frame's base kit should probably be changed.

These are just my opinions on the matter, again I dont post on these forums but this system has intrigued me enough to offer my feedback.

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idk, fk rhinos roar, dont need that sheet. 

Firewalker, Warcry for atackspeed - those are fun :3

but we wont have experiments when 80% of skills are useless crap skills like Volts 1. Such skils should not exist....-____- I mean - make 3 skills frames then, if you cant create frames with 4 usable skills..... 

Or mesa 1, or Valk 1, or.....sigh.

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28 minutes ago, KombachaJuice said:

they will feel forced into simply replacing the weakest ability on their frame with the strongest ability in the Helminth pool, at this early stage, it will most lilkey be Rhino Roar. [...] for instance, take a Nekros who has replaced 3 abilities via the current Helminth pool, and a Mesa who has replaced her 1 with Rhino Roar, which of these two setups is stronger

While Roar is the strongest ability of the bunch on its own, I only plan to use it on a single Warframe out of the ones I frequently play. As you mention Nekros, I will never put Roar on him. He will use either Quiver, Petrify, or Larva.

You have different tools for different needs, and Nekros is the wrong tool if you need damage. Even on Mesa I prefer another ability over Roar (though it certainly is good on her).

Also consider that Roar is a group buff - there is no need for more than one of them per group. If you can use something else to similar effect, you'd be well advised to do so.

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2 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

While Roar is the strongest ability of the bunch on its own, I only plan to use it on a single Warframe out of the ones I frequently play. As you mention Nekros, I will never put Roar on him. He will use either Quiver, Petrify, or Larva.

You have different tools for different needs, and Nekros is the wrong tool if you need damage. Even on Mesa I prefer another ability over Roar (though it certainly is good on her).

Also consider that Roar is a group buff - there is no need for more than one of them per group. If you can use something else to similar effect, you'd be well advised to do so.

Ya your right, Nekros vs Mesa was not the most Apt comparison, but assuming we were talking dmg frame vs dmg frame I think my overall logic still holds.

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56 minutes ago, KombachaJuice said:

assuming we were talking dmg frame vs dmg frame I think my overall logic still holds.

I don't see it. You won't put Roar on:

  • Atlas
  • Banshee
  • Baruuk
  • Chroma
  • Equinox
  • Excalibur
  • Frost
  • Garuda
  • Grendel
  • Inaros
  • Ivara
  • Khora
  • Limbo
  • Mag
  • Mirage
  • Nekros
  • Octavia
  • Protea
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Something often overlooked is that most people are not min-maxers, nor do they sit in missions for 10 years at a time. Replacing an ability with Roar is useless to most people in the vast majority of situations. Additional damage in general is only useful if you happen to enjoy a weaker weapon, in which case, this just adds to diversity in weapon usage. In any other scenario, you're already able to 1 shot everything without any additional damage buffs. There's also stat limitations to take into account, even if the ability looks good for a Warframe you may end up having to recast it often or have the buff be low due to either lower duration stats or strength.

Comparing Nekros to Mesa is also not reasonable. It depends on what you need, for many Nekros is better because you only need 1 person to kill things, Mesa adds nothing to the group at that point, where as Nekros does. Mesa also doesn't really function unless her PM's can target the enemy easily, and once she isn't able to 1 shot anymore, she's worthless. This is why she's viewed as bad for SP.

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3 часа назад, -VS-Simyosh сказал:

Volt 1 can use Shocktrooper. ---> Not Useless 

hm,well, its a dmg buff, that requires a slot for augment. While you can use rhino buff for dmg with free slot. Its important,as for me. But yeah, not as useless as i thought, u right

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Players 'fixing' Warframe kits is just going to lead to DE no longer bothering to rework Warframes, since they can just release a new Warframe with a power you can swap to Warframes with dead power slots.

They're literally turning Warframe powers into the next Mod system; when people wanted their weapons reworked, DE just released a few mods that did what they asked for.
And then they released Rivens to try and rebalance all the weapons at once by adding RNG.

I'm just gonna call it and say we're eventually going to get something equivalent to Rivens but for the Helminth Chrysalis, so that players have some RNG to grind for and DE never has to fix anything.

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You realise how broken this system will be in terms of demolishing mobs even with these restrictions? and that is what it comes down to. Reducing the restrictions actually just makes it way more easy for someone to NEVER need another frame and be able to absolutely destroy anything at all with even less effort than currently.

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This system is the least cautious DE has ever been about anything. It completely breaks the game in so many ways DE will be tuning it for the remainder of the game's lifespan.
The point of only being able to take one ability is I think incredibly obvious. If you replace 75% of a warframe with other warframe's abilities you're no longer really playing that warframe, you're playing an amalgam of multiple warframes, and that's what you'll be doing for the rest of the game in that case. It would remove frame's identities in a way. Additionally allowing this would require DE to balance interactions between sets of abilities that were never meant to interact with each other. I'm sure they're also hoping this will make players consider other frames that they dont normally play to diversify the meta more.

I think it would be neat if maybe the broken frame specifically was an exception to this. Being able to slot in abilities from multiple frames fits with their theme, and they're getting released along with this system so it would make sense. It would be much less effort to balance all the ability combinations on one frame than it would to balance every possible ability combination on every frame in the game. But still It would be A much heavier workload to bug fix, sort out unintended interactions, and nerf dramatically overpowered combinations than it already is. It's just too much to think about.

Not to mention how incredibly intimidating of a system it would be for players to look at all of the abilities in the game and try to consider which combination the 40+ abilities you want to put onto whatever of the 40+ warframes, it's a logistical nightmare both for the devs and the players. The complexity of the modding system turns away a fair amount of players as it is. There's a good reason DE is locking this behind a high experience wall and it's not just because of how powerful the system is.

DE wants it to be as simple, intuitive, and non-game-breaking as possible. and that's saying a lot for how much of a departure from all of those things this system is compared to the rest of the game. and that's saying even more considering how not any of those things this game is.

I'm genuinely shocked they didn't just grab all of the objectively worst abilities from each individual warframe and call it good. Even then there would still have been some insane possibilities.

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Your post is missing a very important point though.

This system absolutely should not and cannot replace reworking frames that do not fit into the current game.  If the game changes so much that a frame is barely still viable for regular play, that frame still needs a rework, Chrysalis system or not.  Letting us rework it ourselves by letting us basically have modular frames completely negates the point of having individual frames with power sets.  Replacing one ability allows for flex, optimization, and replacing that one bad ability that so many frames have.  Replacing all or most of the powers of a frame completely negates that frame's existence.  At the point you would want to replace 3 powers on a frame, that frame is either flat out bad or the player using it doesn't know how to use it properly.

Frames like Frost need buffs and reworks, rather than just being stripped of their abilities and turned into a different frame altogether.  

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I'd rather them be too cautious, if they just throw the floodgates open you wind up with a complete mess like the Riven system.

Granted Roar might still cause issues, but honestly I expect this to be a "hot new thing" that falls off after a few weeks and all you'll usually see is a couple of nuke frames running Roar and a few outliers.

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1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I'd rather them be too cautious, if they just throw the floodgates open you wind up with a complete mess like the Riven system.

Granted Roar might still cause issues, but honestly I expect this to be a "hot new thing" that falls off after a few weeks and all you'll usually see is a couple of nuke frames running Roar and a few outliers.

there are quite a few incredibly usefull abilities in the pool, and almost every warframe in the game has at least one ability that's absolute garbage and a complete waste of energy to cast. I doubt very much that this system will end up neglected.

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What do you want more damage Rhino Roar Vs Nidus Larva most effective? Nidus because all you need is a Redeemer Prime heavy attacking in the location of the Larva. While Rhino has to run to every enemy around the map hoping they are not running around.

100 enemies, Nidus: 30 seconds -1 min VS Rhino: 3 -5 mins.

Who do you want on your team quick or just damage numbers?

Roar is a nuke friend that's all.

Edited by kwlingo
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