KIREEK Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 OP, if you haven't realized by your own topic, the reason you're confused and that something doesn't add up, is because MR is not related with the "new" or "veteran" status, players simply do not use it at all for the most part, some do and that's why all these questions pop up, you brought several examples of alternatives to MR gating and some of the content ingame uses those examples, so it's not like DE doesn't know what to do. They used poor wording that's all. Don't tie MR to "veteran content" or "player quality", "knowledge", "experience", because you'll end up with something that makes no sense, it's flawed, that's why many do not use it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DatDarkOne Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 1 hour ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said: I'd say if you've done the entire starchart, every quest, can reliably survive in anything up to and including Sorties, and at least know some of how each warframe's powers work (at least the ones you own), then you've graduated from newbie to mid-tier. when you're jaded, cynical and are Forma'ing things you don't even like because you literally have nothing else to do, you're a veteran. at least that's how it seems to work.. oh, and your fashion has to be on point: that's VERY important! This is pretty much me in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 7 hours ago, DiceyDelphic said: New players to "not new": Is it when they finish the Second Dream? Perhaps after the War Within? The Sacrifice maybe? Or is it after beating the intro. Did they start getting decent gear like proper weapons, a second frame, mods, or prime gear? Mastery 8 is usually around this time that picks up the pace at least as far as tell. Or is it because they spent enough time grinding some resources micromanaging crafts of multiple fodder weapons to power level their mastery in only a few week or 2? How much time did they spend doing it? maybe a few days of playtime but not much compared to true casuals easing their mastery pace respectively by playing with what they like. Either way, telling everyone during Tennocon the system is "not for new players" only to half the mastery requirements to 8 speaks different. I'm not here to justify the original cap of mastery 15 being rightfully placed before no, but for such a bold claim in a game that panders to mainly the new player experience it seems like they're pulling out on this too. (to no one's surprise who's stuck around this long of course lol). Some people already came up with some quick solutions of MR 10-12 or at least it to be story locked to a certain point. Both are great solutions, ideally the story one in my preference. I don't think anyone subsuming their Warframe before the Second Dream or any lore after will even know what they're doing or why they're throwing what they understand is "who" they are into a amorphous flesh creature. It should at least have a quest limitation that respects such a decision if the MR is going to be that low. That or only have the capabilities besides subsuming accessible upon unlock till a threshold (quest/ higher MR) is met after for the rest. I'm not asking anything revolutionary or controversial like reworking Steel Path rewards (missions reward tweaks tm), but it'd be nice to have a proper build up of power over time for these new players becoming more than just a speedrun mastery grind. This is quite the simple but effective overhaul to general gameplay to hand out so easily when it's much more expansive than just "Archgun but ground", amps, rivens, etc. This mastery gate is now criminally low and does not grant the time or direction to understand any lore about anything related to the infestation, Warframes, and all that other juicy stuff. Feel free to shred some insight if I have it all wrong, or maybe your own ideas how to find the holy middle ground of requirements. (or your own solution in general) It’s a business decision. And before people get up in arms, it makes sense. Short term players will get to a certain point where they will make an “investment decision” to transition to long-term/every day player. The Helminth System incentivizes players to stay. Which also means more Point of sale opportunities and revenue. This point is WAAAAAYYY before MR 15, 12, or even 10. Another way to look at it is number of frames, weapons, nodes required just to get to 8. Special Snowflake phenomenon shouldn’t factor in here. There are millions of us. Just avoid pubs and find other players that pass your “standards” test and play with them in clan/alliance/friends lists if that is your issue. Not hard. And better for the game to go with MR 8. Fin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmthebigman Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Mr12 or higher should be the requirement. Anything below is pretty much easily rushed by exp grinding I see enough Mr 8-10 who dont even know the basics so setting it to 8 to cater to a vocal minority is just absolute horrendous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Firedtm Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 8 hours ago, DiceyDelphic said: New players to "not new": Is it when they finish the Second Dream? Perhaps after the War Within? The Sacrifice maybe? Or is it after beating the intro. Did they start getting decent gear like proper weapons, a second frame, mods, or prime gear? Mastery 8 is usually around this time that picks up the pace at least as far as tell. Or is it because they spent enough time grinding some resources micromanaging crafts of multiple fodder weapons to power level their mastery in only a few week or 2? How much time did they spend doing it? maybe a few days of playtime but not much compared to true casuals easing their mastery pace respectively by playing with what they like. War within, and a few Eidolons under their belt, a Majority of the star map unlocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)f_r_e_e_b_i_e_bg Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 2 months in, still feel like a noob :D. Took me the longest time to stop searching and exploring every nook and cranny of each map or mission (singleplayer mindset baby). By the time I reached Mars I felt a bit burned out and after Ceres decided to go a bit more faster and on the "main" quests (as I heard it is rather good idea to do so). On the bright side well - resources gained did help in a long run and didn't have to farm as much for something specific. Currently MR10 with built Railjack - it's actually quitely developed as well and I enjoy the experience - finished War Within, and generally don't have much trouble with dying. Besides those lvl 80 Grineers on Veil ships or bases - they chew people damn fast. Also participated in Eidolon hunt but prolly did nothig - to test, did some Sorties, Kuva Siphons etc. I think I did most of what game offered or at least I've noticed thus far (I know there is more :D) and I decided to spent time on, but every time it's confusing and messy. Trying to find balance in what I am suppouse to do without trying to spoil myself, but at the same time waste like hours hitting a brick wall is tough. Google wins and it shouldn't be like that. Getting understanding of Warframe is tricky I guess, after all it's being out for 7-8 years and it's constantly evolving. Attempting to cram everything in a short period of time is questionable, I wouldn't be surprised if people that played for years have some issues as well. Now I have a Lich to clear for a first time and debate on the question if I should go fully blind - I did checka little bit, and I think from the "tutorial" in game, I somewhat get what I have to do (mhmhm). I tell ya when people say game can be overwhelming it is understatement. Some folks just went along with how WF develped over the years, but the amount of stuff thrown at you if you are new and very unfamiliar with the concept of WF and start right away is gonna blow your mind :P. I appreciate that they try to keep it fresh with new mechanics here and there - just the explanation more often that not is blurry :D. There is a good side though, maybe a double edged sword, but I like that even if you are new you can enjoy currently released content. It shows how open minded the devs are and allow you to pick your path and chose your options. Not gonna lie though, some gradual exposition or guiding will be of huge help (curious how the so called new player thing will work out). Just because something is explained - often in a very convoluted way - it doesn't mean that's that and we now know what to do and it's ok. Throw 10 more of those in a row in a manner that speaks about it in a way that assumes you cover or understand the used terms and good luck remembering everything. Oops that went a bit off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I'd say that if they've gone out of their way to farm some corrupted mods, they've probably figured out what's what. You can't pick those up by accident. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Its kind of funny. I'm MR18 (iirc, might be 17) on Switch and somehow have filled out most of the qualifiers and disqualifiers people have listed for what makes a player new/not new. I have farmed corrupted mods, I have hunted at least a few Teralysts (not interested in Tridolons) and beaten Profit-taker, I can clear sorties with basically no effort, I still haven't cleared the star chart (I HATE Defection that much), I have beaten the single Kuva Lich I made by mistake completely solo, I don't have most of the bread and butter mods at rank 10 (most are at rank 9, I'm just being lazy and not wanting to re-mod everything in my inventory for one point) and have a large number of Vaulted Primes that I got through farming and not trading. I also have a fully built solo Dojo with a large amount of funded research also done solo and a built Railjack. Anyone want to figure out if I deserve access to the Helminth system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 @Aldain That depends, are all those criteria and or or? If they're and, you're sunk, if they're or you're good to go ;-). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Just now, schilds said: That depends, are all those criteria and or or? If they're and, you're sunk, if they're or you're good to go ;-). I honestly don't know at this point. That entire checklist is just my personal experience, I'm sure there is somebody lower ranked than me who has cleared the star chart or somebody higher who hasn't killed PT. The only reason I listed all of that was because of the whole thing of people trying to put qualifiers that don't make sense when you consider the non-linear route Warframe has in gaining practical experience and power. Clearly as an MR18 I would have been considered able to use the Helminth system before they changed it, but I also haven't cleared the Star Chart, which some people say is something outright mandatory to not be considered new anymore. Most of the nodes I haven't cleared on the star chart? Low level interceptions, defections and most of the new disruption nodes. Everything else I've done at least once, it just isn't clicking with me that those things are something that still makes me a newb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anarchy753 Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I think a high mastery rank is a great measure for Helminth. Not necessarily other content, just that one. It's a system for when you've got so many resources you can pump them into a fancy bin. For when you've got so many frames you can afford to build them specifically to destroy. If you're a low mastery, you simply haven't built or used a lot of stuff, so you should not have access to a system designed for excess. Yes, there are rare cases who choose to ignore mastery rank because they're never going to not play with their bramma or catchmoon or whatever the most OP thing of the month is, but that's their decision to not interact with most of the content and the main progression system of the game and decisions about what's good for new players should be based on NEW PLAYERS, not stubborn older ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 @Aldain I don't think there's any route to gaining power that doesn't involve some knowledge of modding. That doesn't mean the player will have the best builds, but if they're going out of their way to collect a variety of mods it does mean they're probably asking the right questions. I guess someone could understand modding but not bother with corrupted mods (I recall being told by someone they don't like the negative stats and refuse to use them :-P). Or alternatively, someone could farm the corrupted mods because they're completionists without any understanding of their value. However I don't think either case is likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 10 minutes ago, schilds said: I guess someone could understand modding but not bother with corrupted mods That's me for the most part, outside of a few obvious dump stats on other frames/weapons I tend to use a very "gets the job done" approach with my modding. I won't be red-critting on every other melee swing or dealing 7 billion DPS but I can complete what is put in front of me as long as I consider it actually mattering (Steel Path for example, I will likely not touch with a 20 foot Orthos Prime). I have most of the corrupted mods (a few just won't drop), but at the point I'm at it would likely just be a bit more overkill rather than a meaningful increase as I'm not an endurance farmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CdG-Zilchy Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Aldain said: (Steel Path for example, I will likely not touch with a 20 foot Orthos Prime). Can I please have this 20 foot Orthos Prime? 😕 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schilds Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Just now, Aldain said: That's me for the most part, outside of a few obvious dump stats on other frames/weapons I tend to use a very "gets the job done" approach with my modding. I won't be red-critting on every other melee swing or dealing 7 billion DPS but I can complete what is put in front of me as long as I consider it actually mattering (Steel Path for example, I will likely not touch with a 20 foot Orthos Prime). I have most of the corrupted mods (a few just won't drop), but at the point I'm at it would likely just be a bit more overkill rather than a meaningful increase as I'm not an endurance farmer. Well sure, you're not using them, but you did go out of your way to farm (some of) them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infirito Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 New players stop being new when they figure out how chat tabs work... unfortunately, most never reach this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 4 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said: Can I please have this 20 foot Orthos Prime? If I could make one you could have it for free. 4 minutes ago, schilds said: Well sure, you're not using them, but you did go out of your way to farm (some of) them. True enough, though mostly I was farming them for slot plat more than to be used by me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CdG-Zilchy Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 1 minute ago, Aldain said: If I could make one you could have it for free. Gone are the days of stacking 8x primed reaches on a melee weapon via a bug and creating a weapon with 100m range sadly 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 7 hours ago, Midas said: When you have an 8 year old account, are invested in some high end content and communicate with high end players, and learn Warframe mechanics to better understand the game and prepare your friends/clanmates with that information. When you start to teach other players how to build and play is when you are not new and are able to correctly decide which abilities go where with the new system. So a minimum of 8 years to not be considered new? Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Kaiser_Rebellion Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 When I’m farming for mining gems, and there not asking me to revive them. When they can solo any eidolon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Wil_Shatner_face Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 59 minutes ago, Aldain said: Its kind of funny. I'm MR18 (iirc, might be 17) on Switch and somehow have filled out most of the qualifiers and disqualifiers people have listed for what makes a player new/not new. I have farmed corrupted mods, I have hunted at least a few Teralysts (not interested in Tridolons) and beaten Profit-taker, I can clear sorties with basically no effort, I still haven't cleared the star chart (I HATE Defection that much), I have beaten the single Kuva Lich I made by mistake completely solo, I don't have most of the bread and butter mods at rank 10 (most are at rank 9, I'm just being lazy and not wanting to re-mod everything in my inventory for one point) and have a large number of Vaulted Primes that I got through farming and not trading. I also have a fully built solo Dojo with a large amount of funded research also done solo and a built Railjack. Anyone want to figure out if I deserve access to the Helminth system? You don’t think powering through those defections to finish the star chart would be worth it to get access to Arbitrations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angwah Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 I think this is actually a very good change. Ok, you're new and you don't have all the fancy mods, the ones you have are not maxed out, Sorties will kill you plus you can't use the rivens anyway and you're still busy finishing the Star Chart yet so no arbitrations. Eidolons and the Orb Mothers are way out of your reach. But what you can do is get the regular frames. It is actually what you are meant to be doing at this MR level. Of course, slots are still an issue, and they will need to go to make place for the prime version when you get it. This is of course precisely where Helminth can be of assistance! Now imagine this is locked at MR15, and being forced to make the decision to either sell the frame and farm it again at a later point, or shell out for additional slots and hang on to it. and that is if you even know you will need those spares at some point in the future... So, no, access to the Helminth to clear out your regular frames in my opinion very much belongs at MR 8. Access to imprinting the subsumed abilities back into your frames can wait for a higher MR for all I care, but seriously, lets not force people into choosing between keeping those old frames in their inventory with platinum or refarming them all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldain Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 5 minutes ago, (PS4)Wil_Shatner_face said: You don’t think powering through those defections to finish the star chart would be worth it to get access to Arbitrations? Nope, the Aura mods and Adaptation don't appeal to me all that much. Rolling Guard is about the biggest thing in the reward pool that would appeal to me but everything else is just there. As I mentioned, I'm not an endurance runner, so such things don't really help me much. Same with the Arcanes, nice to have but I don't need em. If I get there one day, great, but really I'm in no rush to grind out Arbies for things I likely will never need or use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(XBOX)Knight Raime Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Ideally DE would map out a natural sort of progression for the game and stick unlocking the helminth in there along the way. But that probably isn't going to happen because DE has never really shown any kind of interest in having progression for their game. You could argue the MR system was supposed to be that. But it's never been great at it and has slowly lost pretty much all meaning to it overtime. MR15 doesn't really mean said player is a "vet" but it does mean it's far more likely that you've done most of the content in the game and have a fair bit of resources. Meaning your choice on subsuming a frame and altering another frame would probably be a more calculated decision. MR8 players just get a bunch of content thrown to them at once and that can be quite confusing. I am upset of course that they went back on this being "for experience players only" but DE has trouble sticking to their word so i'm not super upset about it. Really i'm more upset with how they're handling the other things with the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-CdG-Zilchy Posted August 20, 2020 Share Posted August 20, 2020 Can we all just please admire their consistency for a minute? Helminth system - MR 8 requirement, originally for advanced players. Meanwhile... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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