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Hot take: The reason so many players are frustrated with nerfs and want to be unkillable demigods is because the base gameplay of Warframe isn't fun anymore.


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Obviously I can only speak for myself here, but since the launch of Fortuna I have found myself increasingly irritated by the enemies and missions in Warframe. Newer enemies tend to have inconsistent reactions to CC such as Stasis+Cataclysm, inflict too much CC of their own, and are accurate and damaging to a fault. I don't want to play the game when in the Orb Vallis i get one shot as Mesa even with a 95% damage reduction shield after being knocked down and slowed and nullified and magnetic'd by a horde of enemies that leap around like mad. In Scarlet Spear, Limbo's time stop works against all the sentients, until they just decide to ignore it randomly and one shot you through quick thinking. Forget strong warframes or weapons restricting choice, the newer missions and enemies are what's restricting choice. When you aren't having fun playing a mission but you still want to finish it because at the end of the day Warframe is a collectathon, the natural reaction is to spend as little time interacting with the unfun aspects as possible. 

It really feels like DE doesn't understand the majority of the playerbase (or at least what I think is the majority of the playerbase). When the Steel Path was first teased at in an interview, what we expected was a hard mode for the star chart, and an appropriate reward to do these missions instead of the base star chart missions. As it stands right now, the only reason to play the Steel Path is for completion. Once a player has finished the Steel Path, there is no reason to do any mission at +100 level because the rewards aren't there at all. When DE revealed Railjack, i was confused. It's completely unrelated to the rest of the game, the gameplay loop is the exact opposite of the rest of the game and there's no way it could've been polished on launch. If Warframe was a spaceship team based combat game I would've never played it in the first place, so why would I want to play railjack? Most veterans don't play the game for the gameplay anymore, if they did, they would go through each mission slowly shooting each enemy, which is what it feels like DE wants to reduce us to doing.

By making enemies that counter warframe abilities and slowing down the pace of the game as a result, it just feels like there isn't a cohesive direction that DE wants to bring the game in anymore. 

I still play warframe but honestly the only fun I have is getting new frames and weapons. Every new syndicate I have to slowly rank up in or daily standing cap I have to deal with or isolated bubbles with new resources to farm just eats away at the reason I play the game and erodes my fun.

Also Railjack was a massive girthy middle finger to solo players, as is the rest of the game and I'm sick of that.

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I don't care what people think our reason is to be mad about this, but here's the thing: NERFING GOOD ABILITIES WON'T MAKE USELESS ONES BETTER.

It just pisses us off really badly... Then there's the thing that they said, that they won't nerf abilities just because of the helminth system... AND HERE WE ARE TENNOS. Lies in front of our very eyes. Hundred-thousands of people watched tennocon, what did they think? We won't notice their lies, we don't understand english or what? What?! I was never so dissapointed with gamedevs in my life... Not because of the nerfs, but because of the lies... 

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I mean honestly you're not wrong.

Powercreep has spiraled so far out of control that 90% of the reason some people seem to play the game is just to see big numbers pop up.

Because of the same powercreep we have a skewed vision on what "difficult" means and have conflated it with RNG slogs or enemies with 9000 times multipliers on their stats, which only increases the divide between the casual and the hardcore with no real inbetween.

Neither side wants to compromise and find a better middle ground so we just have Warframe: Multiplication Simulator these days.

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1 minute ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Sorry but I have to say the game has gotten much easier, not more annoying. Everything is easier to get, faster to get and the enemies are easier to kill.

You're saying you haven't been swarmed by orb vallis units that fly around and knock you down and have an invulnerability phase while you're being bombarded from space and targeted by respawning turrets and mini bosses. All I want to do is fish and I have the entire faction spawning around me but the moment I farm toroids I get like 5 enemy spawns a minute

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DE only knows three ways to deal with powerful players: Bullet sponge enemies, Invul phases and ability nullification.

All three methods depend on circumventing everything you worked for, to make your gear powerful. They also keep adding circumventing game modes, like the Archwing and Railjack - Now it'll happen again with the mechs.

All I want, is to go nuts with my weapons and abilities. That and fashionframing.

The game isn't fun, because the gameplay and content keeps revolving around everything BUT the warframes. DE's solution to people using things over others? Nerf the things they enjoy so they can have "choice". It's no wonder so many people are angry.

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2 hours ago, Samhel said:

I don't care what people think our reason is to be mad about this, but here's the thing: NERFING GOOD ABILITIES WON'T MAKE USELESS ONES BETTER.

It just pisses us off really badly... Then there's the thing that they said, that they won't nerf abilities just because of the helminth system... AND HERE WE ARE TENNOS. Lies in front of our very eyes. Hundred-thousands of people watched tennocon, what did they think? We won't notice their lies, we don't understand english or what? What?! I was never so dissapointed with gamedevs in my life... Not because of the nerfs, but because of the lies... 

Don't you know? It WILL make the useless abilities better, because more people will use them now that the formerly good abilities are nerfed down to the level of the useless abilities. That makes them better, you see. Oh, and they aren't useless. They're good abilities. They're only useless when there are better abilities. See, it's logical. It makes soooooo much sense. If you don't agree, you're a "child", or something.

EDIT: The point, since mods didn't quite get it, is that these are the sorts of arguments that have been leveled against those who criticize DE's Helminth nerfs. I'm not calling anyone a child. But those who are being critical have been called "children."

Case-in-point:

Quote

i still dont understand how people are losing their minds about DE "nerfing" something before they even released it. Its one of the most childish outrages (next to lich back breaking) that ive seen on this forum. 

What irks me most about this "outrage" is that this immaturity only leads to DE being far less open with us about what theyre doing. If they cant release a list of powers with a disclaimer of "open to change and might not be as powerful as you expect" , then what CAN they tell this community? Fluff? We dont even know the numbers yet and people are already "im quitting WF"

People really act like the Devs that CREATE this game and gives you power, is somehow tyring to "take" your power away? How ridiculous is that. You only need and love roar because DE themselves made it. 

Seen here: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1215248-still-excited-for-subsuming/page/2/

Edited by OniDax
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9 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

You're saying you haven't been swarmed by orb vallis units that fly around and knock you down and have an invulnerability phase while you're being bombarded from space and targeted by respawning turrets and mini bosses. All I want to do is fish and I have the entire faction spawning around me but the moment I farm toroids I get like 5 enemy spawns a minute

Can't say I've had that problem ever since the nerf 1 week into Fortuna's release. Just shoot the beacons. Also if I plan to go fishing or conservation, I put a silencer on my sniper and pick them off rather than alerting the entire landscape but that's just me. Quick question also, are you farming at the correct locations for toroids? Cos that helps with the spawns.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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1 minute ago, Samhel said:

I don't care what people think our reason is to be mad about this, but here's the thing: NERFING GOOD ABILITIES WON'T MAKE USELESS ONES BETTER.

It just pisses us off really badly... Then there's the thing that they said, that they won't nerf abilities just because of the helminth system... AND HERE WE ARE TENNOS. Lies in front of our very eyes. Hundred-thousands of people watched tennocon, what did they think? We won't notice their lies, we don't understand english or what? What?! I was never so dissapointed with gamedevs in my life... Not because of the nerfs, but because of the lies... 

You're absolutely right. The reality is that most (I want to say over half) of all the abilities in the game are just realistically unusable - just completely ineffective. We used to joke about Excal's Super Jump but what about Valkyr's three?

1 minute ago, Aldain said:

I mean honestly you're not wrong.

Powercreep has spiraled so far out of control that 90% of the reason some people seem to play the game is just to see big numbers pop up.

Because of the same powercreep we have a skewed vision on what "difficult" means and have conflated it with RNG slogs or enemies with 9000 times multipliers on their stats, which only increases the divide between the casual and the hardcore with no real inbetween.

Neither side wants to compromise and find a better middle ground so we just have Warframe: Multiplication Simulator these days.

Also this. Karyst Prime has highest base damage in the game (for melee weapons) but it's a dagger. I'm not complaining because it's a good weapon and fun but literally the only reason it's that strong is because it's new and if it was a just slight upgrade to the Karyst it would be useless.

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Got to be honest but there is 'something' that has made the game less enjoyable since around fotuna... not sure what to be honest but it just isn't as 'fun' as it used to be (not burn out, that feels different)

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The reason so many players are frustrated is because bunch of youtubers made their usual videos like "OMG NERFED BEFORE RELEASE HELMINTH IS GARBAGE NOW". Then there are people generally being dumb, throwing around arguments like "so what if it's just another powercreep, there's no challenge anyway", without realizing WHY there's no challenge in the first place. Or trying to convince everybody that objectively best abilities in slot somehow won't end up like another Bramma or Catchmoon. I swear, some people on those forums...

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

Hot take: just because people don't think the game is fun doesn't mean they're right. It's one opinion out of a million and isn't as important as one thinks.

I specifically said I could only speak for myself, pretty cold take. Side note: Fun is also completely subjective.

4 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Can't say I've had that problem ever since the nerf 1 week into Fortuna's release. Just shoot the beacons. Also if I plan to go fishing or conservation, I put a silencer on my sniper and pick them off rather than alerting the entire landscape but that's just me. Quick question also, are you farming at the correct locations for toroids? Cos that helps with the spawns.

I'm in a low pop area so when I farm it's solo and from my experience the spawns in OV are either the entire map or next to no enemies, but this is kinda not the point of the post. Since Warframe is a horde shooter, if more and more enemies are just noping your abilities or damage then your individual power is reduced by like an order of magnitude. It would be unreasonable to want to keep track of every enemy around you at all times in a horde shooter, but when each enemy needs to be individually countered or when multiple enemies can do CC that needs to be actively avoided or is straight unavoidable in a horde scenario (I'm looking at you scorpions) it really wears me down. If you don't mind it then there's not much I can say.

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9 hours ago, SparklyDrew said:

I'm in a low pop area so when I farm it's solo and from my experience the spawns in OV are either the entire map or next to no enemies, but this is kinda not the point of the post. Since Warframe is a horde shooter, if more and more enemies are just noping your abilities or damage then your individual power is reduced by like an order of magnitude. It would be unreasonable to want to keep track of every enemy around you at all times in a horde shooter, but when each enemy needs to be individually countered or when multiple enemies can do CC that needs to be actively avoided or is straight unavoidable in a horde scenario (I'm looking at you scorpions) it really wears me down. If you don't mind it then there's not much I can say.

Solo spawns can be a bit less but should still be fine if you stick to the 3 good spots. However moving on, no I don't mind it when we have soooo many abilities and so much gear with which to negate pretty much any enemy threat in the game. It's all far too easy. 

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24 минуты назад, SparklyDrew сказал:

Also Railjack was a massive girthy middle finger to solo players

mm no it really wasn't. solo RJ is still the best way to play it.

About not playing the game for gameplay anymore. I mean, as it turned out, the majority of players simply ignore mobs unless they absolutely have to kill them. The games turned out to be not hack and slash, superpowers and machineguns, but rather speed run to objective, extract asap and go do something else, which is not warframe. For example i only play sortie missions and only if i feel like playing them. I basically login for daily rewards.

There is nothing to do in this game, no game mode, no daily activity that i want to do.

15 минут назад, fo3nixz сказал:

auto install stars into ayatan is MR10

you are joking right?

21 минуту назад, -CdG-Zilchy сказал:

not more annoying.

emmm... Steel Path corpus ship tileset. The very same aimboting mobs DE supposed to get rid off... and no they didn't do that for this particular tileset. that was annoying.

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5 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

Got to be honest but there is 'something' that has made the game less enjoyable since around fotuna... not sure what to be honest but it just isn't as 'fun' as it used to be (not burn out, that feels different)

I think one of the problems is that I feel a lot of content is becoming balanced around "time to complete", but DE's baseline is people who no life warframe and without standing caps or new resources would have everything done in days. Leaving players who either don't have time or don't grind as much with a workload that is outside of the time they are willing to invest (at least in the short term).

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9 hours ago, Kel_Silonius said:

emmm... Steel Path corpus ship tileset. The very same aimboting mobs DE supposed to get rid off... and no they didn't do that for this particular tileset. that was annoying.

Sorry I'm trying to think what you mean, can you elaborate please?  the only enemy I can think of that's actually irritating is the damn Grineer Commander that likes to switch teleport you.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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Hmm, I somehow get the OP's point regarding Orb Valis. When I first fought the Profittaker, I only thought: WTF... Every enemy had knockdown mechanics, so I was laying on the ground more than actually fighting, while the occasional Comba nullified my abilities and enemies spawn in a dozen per second... Nice, that some youtubers do this with Oberon, but I simply took my Inaros to not be bothered anymore. No clue, how to do this solo otherwise or how less geared players should ever be able to do it. Half of the people, that I play with, don't bother with Vox Solaris, as they don't know how to deal with that fight, they simply abandon it. Exploiter orb was much better in contrast imo.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Kel_Silonius said:

mm no it really wasn't. solo RJ is still the best way to play it.

Except Railjack is designed with the explicit intent to be played in squads. The reality is you can't fly your ship and fix it and board other ships at the same time. When I first tried railjack my ship just had a meltdown when I boarded one of the crewships. Oops mission failed (of course I can deal with it now but the reality is it drags on and on when you're solo as opposed to a squad.

Edited by SparklyDrew
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9 hours ago, (XB1)Kuhl MC said:

Hmm, I somehow get the OP's point regarding Orb Valis. When I first fought the Profittaker, I only thought: WTF... Every enemy had knockdown mechanics, so I was laying on the ground more than actually fighting, while the occasional Comba nullified my abilities and enemies spawn in a dozen per second... Nice, that some youtubers do this with Oberon, but I simply took my Inaros to not be bothered anymore. No clue, how to do this solo otherwise or how less geared players should ever be able to do it. Half of the people, that I play with, don't bother with Vox Solaris, as they don't know how to deal with that fight, they simply abandon it. Exploiter orb was much better in contrast imo.

Well there's always using mods ie Primed sure footed or handspring if you don't have that. Or you can simply CC them, prevent them escalating by shooting the very obvious beacons etc, both approaches work. But see, that's my point, it's so damn easy to overcome obstacles in this game, it just takes a little game knowledge.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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Ironically, it's likely those same frustrations that get us there.

The more variable a player's expected power is, the harder it is to design enemies. We'd gotten to a point of being able to facetank everything and dodging was pointless, so DE tried addressing that by making dodging important through evading CC... but that only served to shut out the people who chose not to use the 'facetank everything' powers.

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6 minutes ago, SparklyDrew said:

I think one of the problems is that I feel a lot of content is becoming balanced around "time to complete", but DE's baseline is people who no life warframe and without standing caps or new resources would have everything done in days. Leaving players who either don't have time or don't grind as much with a workload that is outside of the time they are willing to invest (at least in the short term).

Not so sure it's that either, I work from home, I can basically pop into the game whenever I want to in between jobs etc, but it's not about the grind (or more accurate push to buy with plat) because that has been a thing for years. 

It's something about 'playing' the game and while I wouldn't blame the melee and elemental damage reworks directly, I seem to use far fewer weapons since then due to stance changes etc, so lack of variation causing everything to become stale might be part of it. 

Throw in the sheer amount of forma (often for no reason.... I'm looking at you kuva weapons) we seem to need use these days (most new things don't seem to have any built in polarities) and that doesn't help either but like I say there's something in the game now that stops it from feeling as 'fun' as it used to.

Edited by LSG501
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3 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Sorry I'm trying to think what you mean, can you elaborate please?  the only enemy I can think of that's actually irritating is the damn Grineer Commander that likes to switch teleport you.

If you compare a vanilla crewman to a Juno crewman, the Juno crewman shoots his Dera (is it a dera i forget) like a laser while the old dude hits less than half his shots

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