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Hot take: it makes zero sense to use the most OP loadouts/builds/frames/rivens/arcanes imaginable and then turn around and complain that warframe is too easy or we're too powerful.


(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA

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because nobody is forcing you to completely min max everything. You don't have to use primed mods or rivens or arcanes or helminth infused warframes or the best weapons if you dont want to and its hilarious how every time this point someone says:

 

"Well. I shouldnt have to play with a hand tied behind my back just to have a challenge."

But they want to act like DE tying their hands back *for them* is somehow different than them excersizing a modicum of self control over the impulse to gravitate towards the bestest stuff. 

 

Id rather have the option of being "over powered", or not, than have the game only appeal to the nerf herders.

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The Office Thank You GIF

I've been saying for so long that the people who complain are those who have played this game for thousands of hours, have all the knowledge and all the best equipment, and still delude themselves into thinking that doing that in any other game will somehow lead to a different result.

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I agree. I just play the game how I want, if someone joins my game and wipes the map clean of enemies, more power to them. They're doing the heavy lifting for me while I sit back and reap the benefits of the drops. Power hungry or fashion frame, CC or just making some mad jams on the Shawzin. There is something for everyone. No need for nerfs really, it's mainly a PVE game anyways. We all get power hungry some times, right DE? 

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Also not technically wrong.

But, like I said in the other thread, we're in the situation that we are now because of the people who don't want to try and the people who want 1hko damage sponges solely to spite the ones who don't want to try.

Meanwhile everyone else is trying to just even attempt having fun but because both of those sides are constantly screaming at DE to make things exclusively for their tastes we have runaway powercreep and multiplication being abused to try and keep up with it.

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I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

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I totally disagree.

Right now, because of the insane power gap between normal and min-maxed builds, you can't design difficult content because it fall into one of these two issues :

  • The content is designed to be difficult with random builds, so it's easily cheesed with min-maxed ones.
  • The content is designed for min-maxed build, so it's not doable with normal gears.

The ideal solution would be to lower most of mod values to reduce the gap between random builds and min-maxed ones, which allow an easier difficulty and challenge management for devs. But if this happens, most of non-theorycrafters will complain about nerf as always.

Also, it's important to consider people who min-max are generally tryharders that also more skill than average players, so it crease the gap even more.

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The game is about progression via collecting gear, improving said gear, improving said ability, skills you name it. But here's the problem, we have AWESOME mobility, we have AWESOME powers and gear, weaponry etc. What we don't have is enemies that require ANY OF THAT. All of that awesome parkour is only really used to get to the end of the mission quicker, it's not used to evade the attacks of a boss for example. I want to feel potentially powerful but with the ability to actually die in a mission. This makes actually beating the mission feel like an acheivement, like it does in so many other games.

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1 minute ago, lukinu_u said:

I totally disagree.

Right now, because of the insane power gap between normal and min-maxed builds, you can't design difficult content because it fall into one of these two issues :

  • The content is designed to be difficult with random builds, so it's easily cheesed with min-maxed ones.
  • The content is designed for min-maxed build, so it's not doable with normal gears.

The ideal solution would be to lower most of mod values to reduce the gap between random builds and min-maxed ones, which allow an easier difficulty and challenge management for devs. But if this happens, most of non-theorycrafters will complain about nerf as always.

Also, it's important to consider people who min-max are generally tryharders that also more skill than average players, so it crease the gap even more.

awesome congratulations GIF by Slanted Studios

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5 minutes ago, Voltage said:

When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit.

This. If you have to artificially handicap yourself to have some degree of fun, that's a clear sign of bad game design. What's the point of having a dozen different ways to reach insane godlike levels of power, if there is no content in the game that justifies having said power?

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I do all the above and never complain about it being bored or too powerful. 

I see people calling everything a bullet sponge and then just casually mentioning they barely have formad or properly modded weapons. 

I had to solo farm toroids because no one can stay alive 10 minutes with 4 beacons. 

I'm completely satisfied with my warframe gameplay. 

I do think some vets just need to take a break, though. I'm not a vet, I'm not even 14months in.

 

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6 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

it's not used to evade the attacks of a boss for example.

Jackal Mk2

 

You can hide in Operator, behind pillars, walk with the walls, or, OR, you can jump. The electric fence has only two options for safety, jump or Operator.

 

Guess what people call Jackal Mk2? "Stupid time gates!"

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9 minutes ago, Berserkerkitten said:

The heck is wrong with wishing for content, which actually requires some of those super powerful loadouts we have?

Because then people are "forced" to try. Just look at the reception of Profit-Taker vs. Exploiter. One of those Orbs requires effort and setup/game knowledge, and it's not the one that's generally well received.

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Hmm, I guess the biggest elephant in the room is the outdated enemy AI imo. Some of the enemies clearly can't cope with 4 superfast players interacting with them anymore. I always laugh, when a Grineer soldier runs at me, shoots on bullet, then screams "Oh no", turns around and hides behind the next crate or starts jumping on and off crates repeatedly...

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9 hours ago, Ethorin said:

Jackal Mk2

 

You can hide in Operator, behind pillars, walk with the walls, or, OR, you can jump. The electric fence has only two options for safety, jump or Operator.

 

Guess what people call Jackal Mk2? "Stupid time gates!"

I don't consider jumping using all our parkour abilities. And personally I have no problem with the jackal fight, a bit easy but in fairness it's a very early boss in the way of progressing to the next planet so it stands to reason.

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39 minutes ago, Voltage said:

I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

Preach.

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24 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

Eidolons, Orb Mother, Arbi's.

 

There you go.

- arbies ; any average frame with an average weapon both having no potatoes an formas can do it no problem
- Orb mom ; its a nerfed tridolons 
- tridolons ; any setup that can manage eidolon lures can do it  solo with a radiation + crit weapon 

these 3 doesnt challenge your builds thus , No .

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Completely agree. I have min-maxed frames as well but guess what? After a while, one-shotting rooms becomes stale or I want to switch up the gameplay, rely more on weapons than frame abilities or simply experiment weird builds and test rarely used warframes and guess what? I'm totally free to do so as I got access to the same instruments I got for my powerful frames. Like, one of my most used melees is the Heat Sword.

When I first heard about the Helminth System I was excited. I couldn't wait to make strong frames even stronger but, at the same time, I was ready to experiment on weaker frames to see if they can become more viable or more fun to use.

These nerfs don't impact those aforementioned strong frames. Saryn can still kill everything in a mile radius, Rhino is still a beast but guess who got affected?

All those weaker frames that, imho, don't justify the effort of putting formas on them and the time needed to make them barely decent (as of today). Where you excited to have a squishy frame tankier? Not anymore.

The skill isn't as strong so when you put max (whatever stat you need) it will underperform and what's worse you know it's underperforming compared to the stronger frame you got it from.

So, why even bother? Why would I put an underperfoming skill on a weaker frame?

 

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Regarding those who say "no challenge".

 

Then how would you create a challenge without breaking the game?

The Warframes are already too OP, true. The weapons are OP, true.

Players are too strong, too mobile, too resilient and (if there's no nullifiers) they can completely trivialize missions with CC abilities.

Given this premise, the only way to "give you a challenge" would be to constantly CC players, steal their Energy, interrupt their abilities and have enemies that have astronomical amounts of dmg output and HP+Armor.

Ah, actually there's another, give players nearly impossible objectives and conditions. Timed missions where, if you're 3 seconds too late, you fail. Protection missions where you can't heal the target with Trinity nor it regains health when not under attack. And so on.

Both of these can give you a challenge but I hope you agree both of these sound so incredibly frustrating just as a concept.

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I got a friend into the game a few months back and he still struggles in content I always thought was easy and made me remember how tough the game used to be.

the gap is huge so content must be made separately for vets but,

A big problem is when steel path came out all I heard was bullet sponge and when they re-balance any system which results in nerfs or balance shifts everyone complains.

When steel path came out I actually enjoyed it since I had to actually bring super meta stuff and actually try to play or have a challenge for once.(unless you pick nyx)

I can only speak for me but im excited for heat of Deimos open world sure I will one hit a lot but Im playing for fun and new stuff,we hit a power cap at this point and the content is trying to catch up to us killing level 9999 and having a mountain of resources. 

I think if you hit that power cap and all you want from this game is a challenge then take a break since not every update will bring a challenge up to par with our level or,

just let them re balance our mods it's clear we are too strong even for content meant to be tough for us.

I just don't see the point in complaining about no challenge but also refusing to lets re balances being okay just remember when arcane got re balanced 

 

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56 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

The game is about progression via collecting gear, improving said gear, improving said ability, skills you name it. But here's the problem, we have AWESOME mobility, we have AWESOME powers and gear, weaponry etc. What we don't have is enemies that require ANY OF THAT. All of that awesome parkour is only really used to get to the end of the mission quicker, it's not used to evade the attacks of a boss for example. I want to feel potentially powerful but with the ability to actually die in a mission. This makes actually beating the mission feel like an acheivement, like it does in so many other games.

About the mobility itself. I'd even say we have too much mobility and that's a huge problem in the game.

Players literally laugh at enemies that want to engage them in melee combat because if they don't want or if they are at a disadvantage they can zoom 3km away from them in seconds.

We can dodge bullets, bypass defenses, jump off walls and cliffs to get where we want and if enemy bullets were enough to catch up with all of that we couldn't stop or we'd die on the spot. It's literally to the point where to pose a challenge either enemies have AOE attack or laser accurate aim or every single bullet they fire needs to take off a significant chunk of the players' health.

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