Hot take: it makes zero sense to use the most OP loadouts/builds/frames/rivens/arcanes imaginable and then turn around and complain that warframe is too easy or we're too powerful.

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

2 minutes ago, Nakti said:

They can beat any boss/mission they want.

They still dosent correlate to the game being over when de actively updates and adds new things to the game. Nonetheless less it’s a live service so the game isn’t going to be over for a long time. The game can’t be beaten until there is no more updates to said game.

I’d like to also add that around mr8-9 a chroma can beat any mission or boss including caps and orb as well as Rj related content so by your logic half of the more recent players have beat the game as well and we should all stop playing the moment we do so

[Nakti]

13 минут назад, (PS4)sweatshawp сказал:

I’d like to also add that around mr8-9 a chroma can beat any mission or boss including caps and orb as well as Rj related content so by your logic half of the more recent players have beat the game as well and we should all stop playing the moment we do so

Yes, I've seen a MR5 having done a lot of tricaps, but he had specific challenge to not level account up. But I doubt that an average three weeks old mr8-9 can complete the orbs, tricap solo, beat steelpath, etc. But if he dedicates himself to beating all content in the game... then yes, when he beats everything, he have beaten everything.

Why do you say that completing the game means to stop playing? Well, maybe I used that word wrong. I meant completing the goal to achieve "efficiency and optimization".

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

41 minutes ago, Nakti said:

Yes, I've seen a MR5 having done a lot of tricaps, but he had specific challenge to not level account up. But I doubt that an average three weeks old mr8-9 can complete the orbs, tricap solo, beat steelpath, etc. But if he dedicates himself to beating all content in the game... then yes, when he beats everything, he have beaten everything.

Why do you say that completing the game means to stop playing? Well, maybe I used that word wrong. I meant completing the goal to achieve "efficiency and optimization".

My younger lads are fresh into the game mr 8-13 and can breeze through all content without help from me. The thing is the game can’t be beat there is constant additions to the game. On top of that like I had mentioned earlier it’s a game where ones goal is to collect the highly 

sought after mods and weapons de themselves implement in the game knowing their power. Why can’t a player expect a powerful enemy to match the power of their weapons and if not match at least contest it

[Ethorin]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)sweatshawp said:

Why can’t a player expect a powerful enemy to match the power of their weapons and if not match at least contest it

I see that needing to stack half a squad on providing damage buffs isn't "if not match at least contest it"...

[(PSN)sweatshawp]

4 minutes ago, Ethorin said:

I see that needing to stack half a squad on providing damage buffs isn't "if not match at least contest it"...

Provide context cause I’m lost bro? Cause if your talking about caps in many cases they can be soloed Just as efficiently as a team due to the power creep of amps and lack of buffing caps. Orb Is in a similar boat do to a single buff frame. Wolf was a good start but implemented very weirdly 

[Marvelous_A]

The core of a farming game is to farm in order to get stronger so you farm faster and eventually reach the META. Telling players to not min-max fundamentally contradict to the purpose of playing this game. You might as well just tell them to quit. 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

22 hours ago, (PS4)Grand_Sheba said:

I dont understand your logic, you're saying you don't have to play the game then? Being good at a game should be expected, every good player wil looking for a challenge in later content, the game it self focuses on this ideal with the mastery rank system and mastery tank test. Through out the game they talk about if you've become powerful or skilled enough to beat any odds. They gave out heavy guns, augment mods and archwing launchers, should we just not use them because we don't want to be too good? That's a silly concept, should we just play with only melee and no guns as well? It doesn't we need. Gun for everything and yet I'm sure you one s well. Since this is a live game many will be looking for the next challenge, if you cant handle it, no one is forcing you to try it. 

"So you're saying"- hey nice straw man you got there. Thats not what I'm saying. At all. And that little game is disingenuous at best. 

What I AM saying, is that if you feel a weapon or frame or ability is too strong nobody is saying you have to run a build maximizing the potential of said ability. If you think peacemaker should cost more energy than it does, for example, you can tweak your build accordingly. But no. Instead people want DE to screw over all the people who disagree with them so they can play the game the same way they can already play it if they got over themselves. Its selfish. Also, its not like i ever suggested going into missions "naked". 

19 hours ago, Marvelous_A said:

The core of a farming game is to farm in order to get stronger so you farm faster and eventually reach the META. Telling players to not min-max fundamentally contradict to the purpose of playing this game. You might as well just tell them to quit. 

I'm not telling players to do anything. If Joe wants to completely min max his builds great. If Joe wants to leave certain things out of his builds to make them more "balanced" fine. 

 

The only thing I'm saying is I think its dumb for how to spend hours and hours min maxing his stuff as much as possible and then turn around and complain his stuff is too good and then turn around again and beg DE to break that stuff across the board even for all the people who like it the way it is because he got it into his head that his idea of fun is the only idea of fun that matters. Player choice be damned.

On 2020-08-20 at 9:44 AM, Voltage said:

I disagree with this completely. If you put a lot of time into a game, you want to be progressing your account in a positive direction. This means you get better stuff. When the game continues to raise the ceiling of total power, but doesnt provide any meaningful counter to it, things get stale. It's a completely dumb argument to tell people to just start un-progressing because DE isn't capable of producing stuff that tests the raised power limit. Fortuna on launch was a damn fun update when you had level 4 beacons with hoards of difficult enemies pushing towards you in a Toroid farm or Bounty. I'm not going to pretend that there was a time when Warframe was really challenging, but the purpose of a players progression has slowly been taken away. We don't have the Void for example which was hands down the best place to test equipment and be rewarded for it. Steel Path is a great foundation for this problem, so I'm hoping DE works off that.

"Things get stale". Thats a matter of subjective opinion. Plenty of people like feeling more powerful after 1k hours than when they started.

On 2020-08-20 at 9:47 AM, lukinu_u said:

I totally disagree.

Right now, because of the insane power gap between normal and min-maxed builds, you can't design difficult content because it fall into one of these two issues :

• The content is designed to be difficult with random builds, so it's easily cheesed with min-maxed ones.
• The content is designed for min-maxed build, so it's not doable with normal gears.

The ideal solution would be to lower most of mod values to reduce the gap between random builds and min-maxed ones, which allow an easier difficulty and challenge management for devs. But if this happens, most of non-theorycrafters will complain about nerf as always.

Also, it's important to consider people who min-max are generally tryharders that also more skill than average players, so it crease the gap even more.

"Reduce mod values". Yeah okay. Since you thought that through so carefully im just gonna respond with the word "no".

On 2020-08-20 at 9:56 AM, Berserkerkitten said:

The heck is wrong with wishing for content, which actually requires some of those super powerful loadouts we have?

Nothing. I wish we had more.

On 2020-08-20 at 10:00 AM, Ethorin said:

Eidolons, Orb Mother, Arbi's.

 

There you go.

This is why DE shouldn't listen to cry babies.

On 2020-08-20 at 10:01 AM, Voltage said:

Because then people are "forced" to try. Just look at the reception of Profit-Taker vs. Exploiter. One of those Orbs requires effort and setup/game knowledge, and it's not the one that's generally well received.

Too bad for them then.

On 2020-08-20 at 11:32 AM, 3rdpig said:

Intentionally gimping yourself to make the game challenging is one of the dumbest things I've heard. It goes against every reason I play games. Why am I bothering collecting loot like weapons, warframes and mods if I'm not going to be using them. Why am I honing my skills "gitting gud", just to ignore most of what I've learned?

If that's the game some of you want then petition DE to make a version of Steel Path called "Wet Noodle Path" with a single frame and one set of weapons that can't be modded or raised above level 1 but with all the fashion choices for "end game content" and let the rest of us "git gud".

So it makes more sense to make those things not worth grinding for in the first place? Got it.

On 2020-08-20 at 11:43 AM, Krankbert said:

I don't really get how people can watch the release of the Grendel missions, see how well that went over, and still post asinine stuff like this.

Ah yes. Because clearly what I was suggesting was people looking for a challenge go into missions butt naked. No mods or arcanes or anything. 

Because there isn't a grey area between going in completely naked and going in with complety min maxed builds. 

[Krankbert]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA:

Ah yes. Because clearly what I was suggesting was people looking for a challenge go into missions butt naked. No mods or arcanes or anything. 

Because there isn't a grey area between going in completely naked and going in with complety min maxed builds. 

Doesn't matter anyway. If I have to play with one hand to make it difficult, it's not a challenge. How can it be a challenge if I have to intentionally play bad. How could there be joy in succeeding, when the only way to fail is to deliberately botch the first step of the mission. How is there supposed to be a sense of accomplishment for beating a mission, when I know fully well that the only reason I was having trouble is because I was half-assing it and not even trying.

[(PSN)psycofang]

On 2020-08-20 at 11:52 AM, General-Pacman said:

This. If you have to artificially handicap yourself to have some degree of fun, that's a clear sign of bad game design. What's the point of having a dozen different ways to reach insane godlike levels of power, if there is no content in the game that justifies having said power?

 

Because having godlike power completely counters the concept of challenging content.  The moment you stop being godlike is the moment challenge can come back.

 

You cant have the power to shut down/wipe out an entire map + everything around the corner and complain the games too easy. 

 

You cant have both, one concept hard counters the other. 

[Ghogiel]

DE expects MR8 players to be able to clear most content in the game, and they probably can, but it's probably not all that easy at times.That's around the base line and always has been. 

Meanwhile there is a vocal minority who love the idea of nerfs and think that is a solution to invented problems that affect nothing more than their own arsenal limits and specific play habits.

[Radagosh]

i agree with op. There is no progression in WF and thus making ur gear better is useless, just don't play the game once u cleared the star chart and stop complaining about the lack of direction the DEvs have taken in recent years.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

On 2020-08-20 at 11:38 AM, Gabbynaru said:

I've been saying for so long that the people who complain are those who have played this game for thousands of hours, have all the knowledge and all the best equipment, and still delude themselves into thinking that doing that in any other game will somehow lead to a different result.

You are not allowed to have fun or be content.  It says so right in the Veterans Handbook, p. 6, under:

Entertainment (Page 6):

“At no point past 300 hours of playtime should entertainment value and fun factor (see page 21 for parameters) EVER outweigh the wants, needs and feelings of entitlement for Veterans due to their increased importance within Warframe.

To do so is a violation of membership with penalties up to but not limited to revocation of all progress and account standing.”

For this I’m busting you AND OP back down to “new recruit”and I’m going to need you to delete your accounts and start over.  For your service I will make sure to include 32 platinum so that you can start with one additional frame and 2 weapons.

I hope you’ve learned a valuable lesson here, between the two similar words (entitlement vs entertainment) and I trust I will not have to revisit the Veteran’s Handbook again with the two of you.

Oh, and, “You’re Welcome.”

[quxier]

On 2020-08-20 at 6:55 PM, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Just off the top of my head and I'm no game developer. 

- Bosses that require movement skills to beat for example chasing a boss through an obstacle course that actually challenges the parkour we've learnt ie bullet jump isn't gonna cut it.
- Enemies with weakpoints, Nox is one of the best designs in the game, more of this kind of thing, enemies that are immune to a certain damage type and require us to bring more than just 1 uber melee weapon of death ie a varied loadout not just "mod for viral". Enemies that have potential to do damage upon death, making us consider when we kill them(ever pop a level 300+ Nox next to an Excavator?). enemies immune to cc, enemies that can freeze us in place, be actually threatening etc.
- missions that require timing between players and or use more than 4 tenno, Raids used to do some of this, imagine if Scarlet Spear event had us all starting on the Railjack, fighting our way through an enemy fleet, then dropping off half the team who go into a ground mission, storming an enemy settlement to gain access to a base which first requires the Railjack crew to take down the protective shields via destroying a generator onboard an enemy space station, then the ground crew accessing the base and gaining the codes we require before the Railjack blows it up from orbit. What did we get instead? "Do this mobile defense mission 17 times".

 Yeah... like the stalker (shadow).

Quote

Stalker: Do you think I'm dead? No. "slash at you with deadly... slash"

"Timing between players"... _{"Timing between players"} ... hmmm... so as solo player I have to time all my action at once. Interesting. /sarcasm/

 

 

As for topic:
Many content require you to use either kill massive bullet sponge or enemies that sneezes at you... and you are dead. You are almost forced to use good gear. And to be honest, I feel like I'm either too weak or too powerful. Only recent Protea quest (fighting last enemy) was nice.Not ridiculous bullet sponge.

[Hokibukisa]

This is a casual game that people want to treat like wow.

They want mythic elite dungeons where all meta must be exploited to kill the final boss with a 1% drop chance of some new exclusive meta-breaking stuff.

[Chaemyerelis]

That argument doesn't really work in a combat system where  you can't realistically  avoid damage and you either one shot everything or it one shots you.

Well actually we got shield gating so 'two shot" would be more accurate

 Warframe isnt like dark souls it would need a more engaging combat system based on skill.

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

Ditto. I like min-maxing. But I equally like being powerful.

I'm not against challenge, but if DE's only response to the challenge claims is "bullet sponge" or "timed invulnerability", instead of smarter AI and smarter challenging strategies, then I rather have the game be easy af.

Every time they try challenge it ends up being more of the same, and not appeasing to pretty much anyone, really. Rather than challenge, I'd  say I prefer DE to make the game more "engaging", if I'm being nitpicky about my words. "Engaging" is my preferred way of "Challenging" - and bullet sponges aren't an answer to that.

[Hokibukisa]

21 minutes ago, Chaemyerelis said:

That argument doesn't really work in a combat system where  you can't realistically  avoid damage and you either one shot everything or it one shots you.

Well actually we got shield gating so 'two shot" would be more accurate

 Warframe isnt like dark souls it would need a more engaging combat system based on skill.

Thats actually why I started gate tanking in steel path and its a lot of fun.

Nyx Prime with Decaying Dragon Key = 94 shields.
Nyx with Decaying Dragon Key = 75 shields.
MANY warframes with Decaying Dragon Key = 75 shields. Some even less.

150% brief respite and 160% augur bonus makes a 25 energy ability restore 78 shields.

That means that many many frames can gate tank with just a 25 energy ability.

On my Nyx Prime I don't use the 1 at all, but I'm casting chaos bolts like a madman. Most things that I kill, I kill with pacifying chaos bolts and because I cast them so often I use streamline, bringing them down to 35 energy.

35 * 3.1 = 109
109 > 94

Playing in this way is actually a lot of fun and challenging for CC frames. The cool thing about it is that it is a scaling playstyle. It doesn't matter what the enemy's level is or how many millions of damage they do.

I see people going through SP with 8000hp Inaros, and here I am running around like a fkn madman being even more aggressive than the tanky frames, with 94 shields and 300 health.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

3 hours ago, quxier said:

 Yeah... like the stalker (shadow).

"Timing between players"... _{"Timing between players"} ... hmmm... so as solo player I have to time all my action at once. Interesting. /sarcasm/

 

 

As for topic:
Many content require you to use either kill massive bullet sponge or enemies that sneezes at you... and you are dead. You are almost forced to use good gear. And to be honest, I feel like I'm either too weak or too powerful. Only recent Protea quest (fighting last enemy) was nice.Not ridiculous bullet sponge.

No that part I was suggesting that isn't for solo, gasp the horror... suggesting co-op missions like Raids used to be in a co-op game....

I can't think of any content I don't feel massively over powered in. And I can't recall the last time I felt too weak.

[TheGreenNewDeal]

On 2020-08-20 at 11:33 AM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

because nobody is forcing you to completely min max everything. You don't have to use primed mods or rivens or arcanes or helminth infused warframes or the best weapons if you dont want to and its hilarious how every time this point someone says:

Then whats the ******* point of having those mods? About a week ago, I rolled the best riven I have ever seen for my Sepfahn Zaw. 186% crit chance, 100% crit damage, and a harmless -30% status duration. Guess what? I never EVER have a reason to equip this. Why? Because I have another Sepfahn riven that gives me +1.8 range which is more useful because it helps me wipe entire rooms faster and more efficiently. Why do I need more damage when everything, even on steel path, dies in one single hit. 

[Izgule]

On 2020-08-21 at 2:41 AM, X4vi0uR said:

Regarding those who say "no challenge".

 

Then how would you create a challenge without breaking the game?

The Warframes are already too OP, true. The weapons are OP, true.

Players are too strong, too mobile, too resilient and (if there's no nullifiers) they can completely trivialize missions with CC abilities.

Given this premise, the only way to "give you a challenge" would be to constantly CC players, steal their Energy, interrupt their abilities and have enemies that have astronomical amounts of dmg output and HP+Armor.

Ah, actually there's another, give players nearly impossible objectives and conditions. Timed missions where, if you're 3 seconds too late, you fail. Protection missions where you can't heal the target with Trinity nor it regains health when not under attack. And so on.

Both of these can give you a challenge but I hope you agree both of these sound so incredibly frustrating just as a concept.

 

It does not have to be a case of all or nothing. When approaching a boss or mission objective DE could add the ability to adjust its difficult with hacks or sub objectives that make it easier or more difficult and also appropriately modify the rewards at the end. A hack to activate/deactivate shields or buffs or an energy drain fields. Maybe you can hack a console to open/close doors which let in adds or allies. Maybe you can gain control of ordinance but it greatly damages the target so you miss out on useful loot components.

You could have sub objectives, maybe a target that is fast and needs good parkour but if you capture succeed it helps in the mission or offers a further reward. 

In a group mission a player to opt to hack into security console and gain access to an interface menu they can open close doors activate turrets control robots and if they stay helping through the security system they will get opportunities during a defense mission to open special caches if they do a mini game fast enough when the time arises. Maybe you can work on you parazon, mod your frame or work on your operator to be better at these things rather than pew pew.

There are many options that can make a things more challenging while still allowing content to be accessible to people of different beyond just balancing the combat numbers for high tier or simple binary success or failure.

You could also push the reward structure to both ends of the spectrum, you get different but still valuable rewards for making a mission hell or doing everything perfectly controlled and from a combat perspective easy as possible. As long as both paths require a certain level of power and/or skill of course.

[844448]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Hikuro-93 said:

Ditto. I like min-maxing. But I equally like being powerful.

I'm not against challenge, but if DE's only response to the challenge claims is "bullet sponge" or "timed invulnerability", instead of smarter AI and smarter challenging strategies, then I rather have the game be easy af.

Every time they try challenge it ends up being more of the same, and not appeasing to pretty much anyone, really. Rather than challenge, I'd  say I prefer DE to make the game more "engaging", if I'm being nitpicky about my words. "Engaging" is my preferred way of "Challenging" - and bullet sponges aren't an answer to that.

And what is the difference smarter AI makes when we have frames to turn off the AI, making it pointless? That's one thing to consider if people ask for smarter AI

As for engaging, enemies dying 50 meters away or with one bullet or melee hit won't make things engaging so bullet sponge gives enemies chance to fight back or we have to accept losing our power and turn warframe to be more human like where enemies take more than two hits to die and we can't kill them from 50 meters away (aka balance), and of course, no more enemy lockdown or turning off AI, only basic slowdown and no more than small amount (10% - 20%) so they still able to attack and react albeit a bit slower but then, it doesn't play uniquely anymore, it becomes what people sometimes say as "third person destiny"

[(PSN)Hikuro-93]

6 minutes ago, 844448 said:

And what is the difference smarter AI makes when we have frames to turn off the AI, making it pointless? That's one thing to consider if people ask for smarter AI

As for engaging, enemies dying 50 meters away or with one bullet or melee hit won't make things engaging so bullet sponge gives enemies chance to fight back or we have to accept losing our power and turn warframe to be more human like where enemies take more than two hits to die and we can't kill them from 50 meters away (aka balance), and of course, no more enemy lockdown or turning off AI, only basic slowdown and no more than small amount (10% - 20%) so they still able to attack and react albeit a bit slower but then, it doesn't play uniquely anymore, it becomes what people sometimes say as "third person destiny"

All of them fine concerns, but I think they are best solved after we deal with the enemy units. We keep getting greater power to deal with these bigger and bigger sponges, so maybe we should start with said sponges before adressing the issue of the powerful guns made to kill them.

There's also the issue that Warframe is a horde shooter, so hordes do need to die quickly if DE plans to sustain the current game loop and all its drop and spawn chances, as well as anything that depends of such mechanics. If enemies become harder to kill, and take more time, there's also a few key spots on said mechanics where they're clearly made with countless enemy kills per second in mind.

We tried to change the same issue countless times, so maybe it's time to take a knack at the other side of the issue. Imo, ofc.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

3 hours ago, TheGreenNewDeal said:

Then whats the ******* point of having those mods? About a week ago, I rolled the best riven I have ever seen for my Sepfahn Zaw. 186% crit chance, 100% crit damage, and a harmless -30% status duration. Guess what? I never EVER have a reason to equip this. Why? Because I have another Sepfahn riven that gives me +1.8 range which is more useful because it helps me wipe entire rooms faster and more efficiently. Why do I need more damage when everything, even on steel path, dies in one single hit. 

Whats the point of asking DE to nerf everything? 

 

You can use those mods or not use them. You can be power fantasy or have "balance". 

 

I keep hearing "bUt WhY hAvE ThEm" but somehow, because logic be damned, it's totally different if DE makes the decision for you and breaks all the shiny toys. 

The way it is now the nerf herders and people who actually enjoy warframe for what it is can both choose to play the game the way they want to but the nerf herders want to be fun nazis and impose their ideals of "its more fun because it's BaLaNcEd" on everyone else.

 

 

[Krankbert]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA:

I keep hearing "bUt WhY hAvE ThEm" but somehow, because logic be damned, it's totally different if DE makes the decision for you and breaks all the shiny toys. 

The way it is now the nerf herders and people who actually enjoy warframe for what it is can both choose to play the game the way they want to but the nerf herders want to be fun nazis and impose their ideals of "its more fun because it's BaLaNcEd" on everyone else.

If you don't want to play hard missions, don't play them. Run around on Earth and steamroll everything to your heart's content. Oh, you don't want to do that? You want the game to cater to your playstyle? What a surprise.

[TheGreenNewDeal]

3 hours ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Whats the point of asking DE to nerf everything? 

I legit never said that, you're putting words into my mouth to suit your biased narrative. I have no qualms with the content that is available now, I just want new content to be ADDED that creates a situation or niche in which my best setup can shine. 

Suggesting that I'm the problem because I won't intentionally handicap myself is a retarded argument.