Hot take: it makes zero sense to use the most OP loadouts/builds/frames/rivens/arcanes imaginable and then turn around and complain that warframe is too easy or we're too powerful.

[Chaemyerelis]

I'm using banshee in steel path with base hp and 75 shields. Such hard such challenge. 🙃

Also when people complain about lack of challenge that includes the oversimplified combat system that leads to click spam to win.

 

 

[(PSN)Yggranya]

4 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

combat system

I wouldn't even call it a "combat system". It IS nothing but spamming buttons, because the enemies can't do anything but stun-lock you or get stun-locked by you. That's why all big enemies/bosses stagger you with every melee hit they make, so you wouldn't be able to melee them. Pointless, as then you just run in circles and shoot them until they die. Ugh.

[Krankbert]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Chaemyerelis:

I'm using banshee in steel path with base hp and 75 shields. Such hard such challenge. 🙃

It's a bit disingenious to say "sUcH cHaLlEnGe" because you're doing missions with low HP and shields when your survivability concept doesn't rely on HP and actually profits from shields being low. You going to brag about managing to do it with Revenant with only base HP next?

[akots]

4 hours ago, Chaemyerelis said:

I'm using banshee in steel path with base hp and 75 shields.

The only thing your video confirms is that Kronen prime is rather awful. Nezha with Nikana prime took less than two minutes to mow down Regor and associates. So, I personally do not share the "click spam to win" mentality. No, don't get me wrong, you can do it slowly and by multiple means. However, it does not make it a valid observation, although it remain a valid personal opinion.

[Chaemyerelis]

30 minutes ago, Krankbert said:

It's a bit disingenious to say "sUcH cHaLlEnGe" because you're doing missions with low HP and shields when your survivability concept doesn't rely on HP and actually profits from shields being low. You going to brag about managing to do it with Revenant with only base HP next?

I can do it with any number of combinations of hp/shields, it really didnt change much, except how often i cast or go into operator mode since I was also using a 300/300 banshee till recently.

Its even easier using an umbral saryn or valk. 

[Chaemyerelis]

19 minutes ago, akots said:

The only thing your video confirms is that Kronen prime is rather awful. Nezha with Nikana prime took less than two minutes to mow down Regor and associates. So, I personally do not share the "click spam to win" mentality. No, don't get me wrong, you can do it slowly and by multiple means. However, it does not make it a valid observation, although it remain a valid personal opinion.

I just used a generic blood rush, weeping wounds viral setup. Weather it takes 2 mins or 5 the combat would be the same: just spam left click.

[Leyers_of_facade]

Balancing content based on the "extreme tryhard's" min max build might not be that great of an idea, but content really shouldn't be set to the ridiculous easy level that it is right now. 

 

Scarlet spear is an example of such, it was an absolute grindfest with literally 0 difficulty. Heck, it was so easy that I can actually use it to rank up weapons while grinding for arcane sets.

 

Sleep path? Well, there is really only 1 challenging thing about it. To not fall asleep from boredom. I already cleared all the "higher level" nodes, and they were absolutely disappointing even if I take random loadouts that are far from optimal, now the remaining nodes are the easy ones that I haven't bothered... in general the experience wasn't great

 

Warframe can make content that can be slightly challenging for the player, as we can see nerf requests time to time upon new update releases. The problem however is the player base. Many would rather complain about content being difficult and have it nerfed than to essentially improve their loadout. 

 

Personally I do kinda miss the operations event  (or whatever they were called, its been too long) where the game sets a limit to how high of a "rating" you can have with your loadout, where mods and warframes each gives different rating on different levels, and people would have to figure ways to work around the cap

Rivens would definitely be problematic for such but at least it will be a good start

[akots]

1 hour ago, Chaemyerelis said:

I just used a generic blood rush, weeping wounds viral setup. Weather it takes 2 mins or 5 the combat would be the same: just spam left click.

Sure, although I personally don't get carpal syndrome seizure after 2 minutes but will surely get one after 7 minutes. Also, shorter does not necessarily mean less boring but is certainly correlated with it. Most certainly, some endurance run masters will disapprove of that. All I can say is that it is just a personal opinion and a matter of taste/mood.

Ideally, DE can try to acommodate as many personal preference groups as reasonably possible eventually. Which should not be that hard for people who have almost everything, don't need rewards/resources and are looking only for entertainment.

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

10 hours ago, TheGreenNewDeal said:

I legit never said that, you're putting words into my mouth to suit your biased narrative. I have no qualms with the content that is available now, I just want new content to be ADDED that creates a situation or niche in which my best setup can shine. 

Suggesting that I'm the problem because I won't intentionally handicap myself is a retarded argument.

No, I'm asking if you can defend the nerf herder crowd that DOES seem to think everything from half the frames (or more) to CC to energy economy needs to be nerfed. 

 

Whats a retarded argument is pretending there's only one way to play this game and then complaining when that way isn't fun. 

 

I'm fine with more higher level content but even then we get into the back and forth of "what is and isn't challenging".

 

 

 

[(XBOX)ECCHO SIERRA]

13 hours ago, Krankbert said:

If you don't want to play hard missions, don't play them. Run around on Earth and steamroll everything to your heart's content. Oh, you don't want to do that? You want the game to cater to your playstyle? What a surprise.

That silly, pathetic argument falls on its ass.

 

Am i asking DE to re work the entire game to suit my playtime? No? Okay.

[bibmobello]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

That silly, pathetic argument falls on its ass.

 

Am i asking DE to re work the entire game to suit my playtime? No? Okay.

You are just asking to DE to throw away their entire new pool of trolls "players". They will never do that but they should have the dignity to avoid to define this game action(?) shooter(where) rpg(what) mmo(wtf..).

[Flying_Scorpion]

I think at the end of the day, different developers cater to different crowds. Warframe hits a lot of sweet spots, especially the sheer number of possible combinations and builds. There's very few games that are as good at that as Warframe, except maybe Path of Exile. This comes at a sacrifice though: game balance. Other developers will tighten game balance a lot, but that usually (if not always) comes at a cost to potential build options and combinations. If we want to experience the latter, we may have to play other games. Games that have less build options, but more balance and challenging gameplay.

Maybe there's a solution that satisfies everyone. Maybe they could just power up the enemies a little bit? I sure wouldn't mind getting destroyed by a boss that can crush even the most meta builds. *edit* But then that's probably not considered "a little bit" lol.

[TheGreenNewDeal]

29 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

No, I'm asking if you can defend the nerf herder crowd that DOES seem to think everything from half the frames (or more) to CC to energy economy needs to be nerfed. 

Why would I defend them? You're not even making any sense, bro. I came here with a point of my own and you're asking me to attest to someone elses point that has nothing to do with my own, like... the **** man?

 

Game only has 3 modes, beginner, easy, and medium. I'm only asking for a hard and extreme difficulty to be added. You can keep your beginner warframe mode and play around with your trash weapons and frame builds if you so desire. No skin off my nose. 

[Flying_Scorpion]

On 2020-08-20 at 9:33 AM, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:

Id rather have the option of being "over powered", or not, than have the game only appeal to the nerf herders.

Consider these options:

Players who want to be challenged power themselves down in order to experience it.
-OR-
Players who want to feel overpowered can play the lower level content to experience it.

Both options could solve the problem. But both options come with sacrifices. That's the problem. No one wants to make a sacrifice.

I'd like to table another solution to powering down for content. Put something in the game so difficult, that not even meta builds can cheese it. Something so hard that there is zero way to cheese it, and it takes longer for the average player to learn the enemy animations and telegraphs and timings to be able to get through the punishment of failure and achieve their first successful run; however, at the lower levels (like 10-15), the telegraphs and animations and the damage output of the enemy is so (s)low, that anyone can learn how to do it. Even allow people to cheese it at lower levels. Heck most new players don't have access to cheese builds anyway, so unless someone carries them, they'll be in a situation where they're not shutting down the AI and can actually engage with it's mechanics.

[Miyabi-sama]

В 20.08.2020 в 18:33, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA сказал:

You don't have to use primed mods or rivens or arcanes...

Then what is the point of having those?

[quxier]

On 2020-08-22 at 11:36 PM, -CdG-Zilchy said:

No that part I was suggesting that isn't for solo, gasp the horror... suggesting co-op missions like Raids used to be in a co-op game....

I don't mind co-op things... but, as some players, I don't like being forced to co-op.

On 2020-08-22 at 11:36 PM, -CdG-Zilchy said:

I can't think of any content I don't feel massively over powered in. And I can't recall the last time I felt too weak.

I've been farming frames. I was at the Ceres (afair), fighting the Vor & the Lech Krill. I was trying to kill the Krill first, while using Zenurik + electric dash from time to time. Before I even killed the Krill, the Vor was dead.

On the other hand take for example Protea. It's possible to kill her while in her Temporal Anchor (4th). If you are doing good... then it's good. However if you slow down you will take a lot of damage, and it's means death... long death.

ps. and I'm not using some very OP things

[(XBOX)ALTBOULI]

yup...but you will never get through to those people doing this and then complaining 

[killerJoke66]

For the original post's claim , i recently farmed baruuk because i was bored and wanted to try him out .
After getting hang of his abilties in simulacrum i wanted to see if i could mod it in a way that i would still do red crit with no orokin potatoes. 
I'm talking about abslute no potatoes and no formas on anything (other than previous sentienl which is helios prime but its not relevant anyway) 

So i only had 175% range with 144% strength and just the serene storm augment which i farmed and not even bught with plat .For the exalted serene , there was only primed fury thats only exclusionary which you can get from baro if youre lucky  (not saying i only had p.fury on exalted , its just the only mod thats a bit exclusionary , because in my taste serene storm doesnt need berserker , i put normal dual stat mods with some normal crit mods with it , nothing special)

We're still in casual range of mods with no plat investment 

Even with no 360 degree on elude you can manage to erode your restraint meter pretty fast with 3 corpus tech units  and then with only gladiator mod set from sentinel barruk can dish out the meme red crits no problem .

I dont know if this satisfies the  it makes zero sense to use the most OP loadouts/builds/frames/rivens/arcanes imaginable and then turn around and complain that warframe is too easy or we're too powerful. 

There you go ! now ill try to do some steel path toroid farm with this non forma no potatoe build vanilla baruuk .

[killerJoke66]

- i had no rivens 
- no arcanes
- no busted builds , just a casual no forma no potatoe , low budget build

Tho if you want no mods , it still wont matter because if you can angle your no  modded baruuk correctly for his first ability , he still wont get damaged meanwhile building his meter and then clearing nullifers with secondaries in a corner or with a miter ,then activating lull and then using the pull combo on serene would still do the job , just slower and less efficent , but doable non the less , game is still easy yup. (maybe he wouldnt be able to do lvl400+ idk , i have no ineterst to test that area with no mods as it would be a slog-fest)

[Synpai]

So you're saying a lot about player choice while kind of glossing over aspects of game design.

I kind of lean with @lukinu_u

Why do developers put boundaries on levels and open worlds? Couldn't players just use a modicum of self control and premonition to understand what's intended as a playable space?

 

 

To put it frankly Pokemon for example forces players to have a certain gym badge in order to have high level Pokemon listen to them, making it more consistent to just play the game and level up Pokemon than attempting to trivialize the experience. The developers designed the game where they knew what level Pokemon players should approximately have to make the content "challenging." However, nothing is stopping the player from say leveling a Pokemon they catch to a high level, it's just absurdly inefficient to do so compared to playing the game (I've done this once just to say I did, yes).

Saying it's not necessary to use X, would be like playing a game, getting a mysterious key, beating the entire game and wondering "where was I supposed to use this key?" only for the developers to say "That key is just a fun item you can pick up, it doesn't actually open anything." Comparatively to Halo 3/Reach where it factually doesn't matter what weapon the player uses as long as they understand the mechanics of the enemy and world itself. 

You technically don't have to mod your warframe or weapons, let alone engage in the movement system, nor bring a companion, nor use an ability or shoot at all really etc. 

Yet it's safe to say that these systems were designed and put into the game....for players to engage with o-o? So I feel while I understand the point you're trying to make, the way you've presented the argument is flawed. The question that's harder to answer is "What power level should you be at?" Because it's hard to even gauge your strength vs the enemy strength and that can vary from using even the same mods on different weapons/warframes. I.e: A fully min-maxed Furis still handles different level content than an unmodded Kuva Bramma.  An unmodded Nova can still provide a significant impact at a multitude of levels compared to a fully modded Ember which reaches a point of lesser effectiveness. 

 

God Eater (and I believe Monster Hunter) give players the freedom to use any weapon/build but lock weapon evolutions and buff levels behind specific story segments to prevent the player from getting a max rank weapon before they need it.

Dragon's Dogma locks the more powerful weapons to the later story segments, or deadly exploration areas.

The difference between Dragon's Dogma + God Eater vs Warframe, is that the developers had a plan for the enemies and players to continuously grow stronger and for the player to reach a point where they are strong enough to make older creatures trivial but other creatures still stand to par at their maximum level, but both of these games do so with more than just a thicccc health bar, the enemies are also wildly dynamic and reactionary. 

 

To some extent as a game designer you shouldn't give your players particularly useless things. If they don't want the player to have primed mods worth of power or don't want to balance for it, get rid of them?  Like...we're living in a universe that's turning up a power dial that frankly none of us even really had a say in developing.

Rivens and Primed mods just happened...

 

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 hours ago, quxier said:

I don't mind co-op things... but, as some players, I don't like being forced to co-op.

I've been farming frames. I was at the Ceres (afair), fighting the Vor & the Lech Krill. I was trying to kill the Krill first, while using Zenurik + electric dash from time to time. Before I even killed the Krill, the Vor was dead.

On the other hand take for example Protea. It's possible to kill her while in her Temporal Anchor (4th). If you are doing good... then it's good. However if you slow down you will take a lot of damage, and it's means death... long death.

ps. and I'm not using some very OP things

Vor is a pushover of course but then so is Krill. As for Protea I can only assume when players had trouble with her they were lower MR, newer players etc. I killed her in about 30 seconds without ever getting damaged. Just felt like your standard quest for a new frame with a bit of lore for us. Didn't feel dangerous though.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

As for Protea I can only assume when players had trouble with her they were lower MR, newer players etc. I killed her in about 30 seconds without ever getting damaged. Just felt like your standard quest for a new frame with a bit of lore for us. Didn't feel dangerous though.

No, I mean Protea as playable frame... frame that you play, not quest.

20-08-22 at 11:14 PM, Hokibukisa said:

Thats actually why I started gate tanking in steel path and its a lot of fun.

Nyx Prime with Decaying Dragon Key = 94 shields.
Nyx with Decaying Dragon Key = 75 shields.
MANY warframes with Decaying Dragon Key = 75 shields. Some even less.

150% brief respite and 160% augur bonus makes a 25 energy ability restore 78 shields.

That means that many many frames can gate tank with just a 25 energy ability.

On my Nyx Prime I don't use the 1 at all, but I'm casting chaos bolts like a madman. Most things that I kill, I kill with pacifying chaos bolts and because I cast them so often I use streamline, bringing them down to 35 energy.

35 * 3.1 = 109
109 > 94

Playing in this way is actually a lot of fun and challenging for CC frames. The cool thing about it is that it is a scaling playstyle. It doesn't matter what the enemy's level is or how many millions of damage they do.

I see people going through SP with 8000hp Inaros, and here I am running around like a fkn madman being even more aggressive than the tanky frames, with 94 shields and 300 health.

I wonder how it would work with Blind Rage (negative efficiency but positive strength) and/or Protea.
As for Protea, she has shield satellites, which restores 50 shield per second and 500 shield per activation. Plus, it adds 2 second shield gate. I'm not sure if it adds those 2 seconds to the shield gate when shield weren't fully regenerated (to the 0.3 second). So, every 3 seconds we have to regenerate shield (113 for the Protea with Dragon key).
Having just the Brief respite:
-> 50 from the Shield satellites + 75 Blaze Artillery = 125
-> if you use the Protea's "3 passive" then you get 175 energy (just 50 energy/s)
So this option seems not so spammy (one Blaze Artillery per 3 seconds) but I'm not 100% if this would trigger "full shield" thingy

Adding strength + "3 passive" makes her Shield satellites regenerate 150 per second (not sure if it's 150 at once or for example 75 every 0.5 second). With this option do we still need Brief respite/Augur mods?

The Blind rage (+99 strength -60 efficiency) makes it harder to spam abilities but if I want to just use Shield satellites once then it will be ok. I'm not sure how the Blind Rage will work when you want spam abilities a lot. More or less half upgraded the Blind rage makes spamming harder, even with Protea's energy thingy. Not sure if the Blind rage outside frames that can regenerate energy or with efficiency mod would work with your setup.

ps. thanks for thoughts about this... I wanted to make her survive more.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

11 minutes ago, quxier said:

No, I mean Protea as playable frame... frame that you play, not quest.

Oh sorry,  I misunderstood. Makes sense now.

[-CdG-Zilchy]

On 2020-08-23 at 6:09 PM, Chaemyerelis said:

I'm using banshee in steel path with base hp and 75 shields. Such hard such challenge. 🙃

Also when people complain about lack of challenge that includes the oversimplified combat system that leads to click spam to win.

 

 

God that was painful to watch. Clicker hero extreme mode.

[Hokibukisa]

34 minutes ago, quxier said:

No, I mean Protea as playable frame... frame that you play, not quest.

I wonder how it would work with Blind Rage (negative efficiency but positive strength) and/or Protea.
As for Protea, she has shield satellites, which restores 50 shield per second and 500 shield per activation. Plus, it adds 2 second shield gate. I'm not sure if it adds those 2 seconds to the shield gate when shield weren't fully regenerated (to the 0.3 second). So, every 3 seconds we have to regenerate shield (113 for the Protea with Dragon key).
Having just the Brief respite:
-> 50 from the Shield satellites + 75 Blaze Artillery = 125
-> if you use the Protea's "3 passive" then you get 175 energy (just 50 energy/s)
So this option seems not so spammy (one Blaze Artillery per 3 seconds) but I'm not 100% if this would trigger "full shield" thingy

Adding strength + "3 passive" makes her Shield satellites regenerate 150 per second (not sure if it's 150 at once or for example 75 every 0.5 second). With this option do we still need Brief respite/Augur mods?

The Blind rage (+99 strength -60 efficiency) makes it harder to spam abilities but if I want to just use Shield satellites once then it will be ok. I'm not sure how the Blind Rage will work when you want spam abilities a lot. More or less half upgraded the Blind rage makes spamming harder, even with Protea's energy thingy. Not sure if the Blind rage outside frames that can regenerate energy or with efficiency mod would work with your setup.

ps. thanks for thoughts about this... I wanted to make her survive more.

Yeah dude there’s a lot of math involved trying to figure out what works. Channeled abilities don’t seem to restore shields.

so this would be hard to pull off on non-cc frames, so it works fine on nyx most of the time. Nyx’s problem is moving around, so I’m actually planning on putting Silence onto her.

if protea doesn’t have CC you might consider resonator, as I’ve already tried gate tanking on Octavia with the same strategy while ONLY using resonator and Amp (no invis) and had no issues, except when moving from area to area.

If Protea DOES have cc, then yeah try gate tanking and maybe silence for moving around the map.