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Do we really need so much tileset traversal time for some missions and cant the missions have a bit of ninjaness?


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Hello Tenno ,

It is I the Fool and i have some more foolish thoughts in my head after consuming significant amounts of hydrogen monoxide mixed with hydric acid which i would like to discuss.

The topic at hand is NOT HELMINTH RELATED! i am growing tired of it , it bores me.

What i want to discuss is something else , something that has been with us for quite some time,

I wish to discuss Traversal , and its necessity (or lack of ) for some missions.

Just to preface.

An average traversal mission (not stationary like defense / interception) would take a little more than 3 minutes to complete , quick ones could be done in less than half the time and more leisurely players could take more than double that by taking the more scenic route.

AND DE IN THEIR WISDOM! Keeps making tilesets bigger (not a problem) and objectives even more spaced out (a bit of a problem) as if doing the same thing a 100th times would make it more enjoyable than the first 99 times if you spend more time getting from A to B at speeds to break necks of normal people (maybe fun for the first 98 times , but 99 gets annoying thats just me though) , than actually doing stuff once you get to the objective. And i get it Gotta show play numbers to justify the investments of those amazing tilesets and they usually are amazing if i really was taking my time! so this is a traversal and alternate objective discussion.

I personally feel many of the mission times are unnecessarily bloated with traversal when they could include some other fun mechanics.

Lets take Assassination for example. They are on avergae more than 1000m away from starting point. So you spend 1000 m that is usually a dozen or more progressively generated tiles looking for the exit of that tileset each time and not enjoying the scenery.

what if the time you spent pressing W + CTRL + Space + shift + CTRL + Shift on repeat (i promise i do not use macros for traversal) actually fighting with the boss? without changing your average completion time?

Yes ,Yes , i know , most bosses without invulnerability phases die in less time than it takes for someone to say "Unicorn spotted" Which i think needs to be relooked too (both unicorn and invulnerability phases) But one thing at a time.

So if there was less traversal , and more boss fight , would you like it more? or would you like it less?

Would there be invulnerability stages? preferably not , maybe some other mechanisms where you could damage the boss by non traditional means (drop a chandelier on him? pull the rug from under him? mind control a bug to fly into his mouth while he is in a monologue that is longer than the constitution of some countries?Insult their fashion to make them rush at you in anger? use your parazon to pry a bit of their hot exo armor to the cold kiss of a blade?)

Whatever the mechanism something to engage you beyond a mere waiting time.

Sabotage is The other similar mission, You spend 2 seconds doing the sabotage and the remaining 3.28 minutes getting to the objectives (exccept for that one thing with the ship and the coolant towers).

What if , instead you are given choices? you do the thing about blowing up the reacor/fuel cell/coolant if you want, or if you are sneaky as a ninja , you could find the captain , take his key , and redirect the ship into another ship by changing the navigation from the cockpit? two ships with one tenno, isnt that efficient?

Rescue & Capture can go similarly , instead of breaking them out by force , you just change their cell assignment to a sunny beach near cetus and you dont have to ever enter the cell and risk your or you hostages neck or have the capture target start fleeing.

The sneaky way lets you use vents to move between regions and needs stealth to allow traversal skip.

Exterminate too , what if you just cut off the oxygen supply of a section of the ship? or changed the thermal controller of the suits to malfunction ? take out a big chunk of enemies without drawing a single blade as long as they dont suspect it?

 

I expect a fair share of "that is no longer warframe" or "go play a different game" which i fully plan on doing, but i want to know if my thinking is truly foolsh or would it reignite some willingness to replay some of the missions?

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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12 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

I wish to discuss Traversal , and its necessity (or lack of ) for some missions.

Part of the issue with them making the maps bigger and bigger is because they made us much faster over all with acrobatics 2.0 so long ago.

Personally, (I'll get hate for this) I think they should bring back the stamina bar but only for bullet jumping and sliding. Keep is off of sprinting and melee as it shouldn't have been there (also make sprint the default instead of walking ffs).

14 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So if there was less traversal , and more boss fight , would you like it more? or would you like it less?

I would actually like this. But it could be difficult to make fights longer (in this specific game) without invulnerability phases or insane amounts of health, that really only hurts players not using meta dps loadouts. Maybe, in the case of bosses (and maybe certain common special enemies) cap the amount of damage they can be dealt within a time period. Like they can't be dealt more than 3-5% of their max health per second or something. It keeps players from instant killing them without invalidating lower tier gear, and with additional boss mechanics typically involved it can cut down on invulnerability phases but still discourage pure dps burn tactics. 

The numbers climbing so high in this game is what allowed the uncontrollably fast and unbalanced gameplay we experience these days, and it's amazing how many seemingly unrelated issues all end up stemming back to that.

36 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Sabotage is The other similar mission, You spend 2 seconds doing the sabotage and the remaining 3.28 minutes getting to the objectives (exccept for that one thing with the ship and the coolant towers).

What if , instead you are given choices? you do the thing about blowing up the reacor/fuel cell/coolant if you want, or if you are sneaky as a ninja , you could find the captain , take his key , and redirect the ship into another ship by changing the navigation from the cockpit? two ships with one tenno, isnt that efficient?

Rescue & Capture can go similarly , instead of breaking them out by force , you just change their cell assignment to a sunny beach near cetus and you dont have to ever enter the cell and risk your or you hostages neck or have the capture target start fleeing.

The sneaky way lets you use vents to move between regions and needs stealth to allow traversal skip.

Exterminate too , what if you just cut off the oxygen supply of a section of the ship? or changed the thermal controller of the suits to malfunction ? take out a big chunk of enemies without drawing a single blade as long as they dont suspect it?

That could be neat. Having stealthier, but slower, alternatives to certain mission types would be cool. Being able to give everyone amnesia by resetting alarms removes a lot of incentives to be stealthy in this game, so i wonder if that should be reworked to have certain longer term repercussions.

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2 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

So if there was less traversal , and more boss fight , would you like it more? or would you like it less?

You hit me with a topic here that is very aptly timed because I ran a few rapalolyst missions last night trying to get the BP I need to build wisp (again).  In that mission the lowest run I had was 1500m and the highest was nearly 2000m.  All through stupid gas city tiles necessitating crazy parkour or operator void dash.  It sucked hard.  It was boring and entirely uninteresting and took WAY too long.  I did my four runs (not getting the BP) and promptly turned off warframe when at the start of it I figured I'd be playing for most of the night.  Stupid me forgot how annoying that boss is made worse by the run to get there.

I'm wary of you saying "more boss fight".  In DE speak that means super frustrating gate mechanics like invulnerability phases and dumb hoop jumping.  Plenty of which exists in the rapalolyst fight already and I don't need any more of it.  If by some miracle "more boss" turned out to be fun and engaging skill based game play, then sure.  Who would say no to that.

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theres lots of "ninjaness", just look at those mining nodes you can "ninja", or fish you can "ninja", same for taking scans/photograhs in a very "ninja" way, lets also not forget we can go "ninja" us some pokemon in the wild, see, there is countless ways to be a 100% totally legit space ninja already.

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A freaking men, brother.  I have griped about this since I started playing.  It's like they force you to come see and take a stroll at all they have built but the thing is nobody pays attention and we endup being frustrated because it takes two minutes Utes to get there, 15 seconds to do the objective, and another minute to get out.  Literally, 85 percent of your time is spent bullet jumping.  

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6 hours ago, (PS4)Agent_CHAR said:

.I'm wary of you saying "more boss fight".  In DE speak that means super frustrating gate mechanics like invulnerability phases and dumb hoop jumping.  Plenty of which exists in the rapalolyst fight already and I don't need any more of it.  If by some miracle "more boss" turned out to be fun and engaging skill based game play, then sure.  Who would say no to that.

Yes that is a problem, not all fights are equal, hence the very easy ones will need to be updated with some mechanics (like the jackal) to make sure the boss is not killed by an accidental sneeze of an overpowered tenno. 

And just thought of this, the new UI endscreen would be very apt as an end of boss fight screen instead of where it is (no need to go to the landing craft cause all enemies flee) 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Glitschig said:

A freaking men, brother.  I have griped about this since I started playing.  It's like they force you to come see and take a stroll at all they have built but the thing is nobody pays attention and we endup being frustrated because it takes two minutes Utes to get there, 15 seconds to do the objective, and another minute to get out.  Literally, 85 percent of your time is spent bullet jumping.  

Exactly. 

 

3 hours ago, Methanoid said:

theres lots of "ninjaness", just look at those mining nodes you can "ninja", or fish you can "ninja", same for taking scans/photograhs in a very "ninja" way, lets also not forget we can go "ninja" us some pokemon in the wild, see, there is countless ways to be a 100% totally legit space ninja already.

How can you forget the bony squawk noob skater? Doesn't get more ninja that that. 

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You want more traveral in your missions? You want other tenno to appreciate the scenery? Well how about we just get rid of the waypoint system the game keeps telling us to go to? Then every player have to mindlessly stumble around in the dark until they reach the suppose objective.

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Only a fool would suggest this...

Also I agree,  it's very similar to what I was suggesting yesterday with having a parkout style boss with abilities locked out that requires us to actually use parkour through an obstacle course to catch up and damage him. I'm a speed runner and I'd personally still love a purpose to moving through the mission at breakneck speed that isn't to clear vast empty rooms quicker.

Edited by -CdG-Zilchy
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4 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

You want more traveral in your missions?

uhhh .... no , i am not sure if you actually read the whole thing and what i am trying to say. The objective is to AVOID mindless traversal.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

You want other tenno to appreciate the scenery?

That would be nice yes, the art team really does some good tilesets.

5 minutes ago, (PS4)jaggerwanderer said:

Well how about we just get rid of the waypoint system the game keeps telling us to go to? Then every player have to mindlessly stumble around in the dark until they reach the suppose objective.

I believe there was a sortie condition like that once, it was called fog if i am not wrong where all way points and enemy markers were disabled along with low visibility.

4 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Only a fool would suggest this...

Nothing would say this too. Also , guilty 😄

 

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4 minutes ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Nothing would say this too. Also , guilty 

😄

 

Your name and demeanor obvious in your first post are just too good to not throw in silly puns 😄

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10 minutes ago, -CdG-Zilchy said:

Your name and demeanor obvious in your first post are just too good to not throw in silly puns 😄

AH! the outrage! Judging a person by his name and demeanor and not his credentials that can in no way be verified due to the anonymous nature of the forums!

How dare you throw silly puns! humorless forum dwellers could have eaten those 😄

 

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With the exception of your assination mission idea, the rest do the opposite that players want - speeding through a mission ASAP.  I'm not entirely sure how we went from complaining about rushing through missions because "the 100th time doing so is boring!" to suggesting stealth action as an alternative to finishing multiple mission types as if "the 100th time doing so is boring!" won't apply there as well.

Look, the core issue is that people just aren't having fun because they optimized the fun out of the game.  The tilesets are the perfect size for peeps like me who grab their fun-time kit and go about slaughtering their way to the ship's power generator with a machine gun and are having a blast doing so.  I'm disappointed when I see the 5:00 minute countdown timer because it means I need to prioritize leaving, not murdering my victims.

I'd argue if One just isn't having fun shooting things in a Third-Person Shooter, they're really here because of the sunk cost fallacy, not because they're having any actual fun.  Typical of anyone playing any progression game, like most MMO's - they're bored and going through the motions, but they can't bear the thought of "throwing away" all that investment.  Sure, they'll claim they're having fun doing [insert most efficient mission completion behavior here] but I know most of Warframe's long time players were having fun with a Braton/Strun/Paris MKI and little to no power what-so-ever at one point in their career.

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1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

With the exception of your assination mission idea, the rest do the opposite that players want - speeding through a mission ASAP.  I'm not entirely sure how we went from complaining about rushing through missions because "the 100th time doing so is boring!" to suggesting stealth action as an alternative to finishing multiple mission types as if "the 100th time doing so is boring!" won't apply there as well.

The rest are alternatives to "A to B to C to exit" . where if you manage to stay stealthy you can exit immediately after getting stuff done skipping the last part of C to exit.

Again , its optional you can do either way.

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

Look, the core issue is that people just aren't having fun because they optimized the fun out of the game.  The tilesets are the perfect size for peeps like me who grab their fun-time kit and go about slaughtering their way to the ship's power generator with a machine gun and are having a blast doing so.  I'm disappointed when I see the 5:00 minute countdown timer because it means I need to prioritize leaving, not murdering my victims.

your preference is your preference and you can still do that if you want and not take the quick way out.

1 hour ago, Lost_Cartographer said:

I'd argue if One just isn't having fun shooting things in a Third-Person Shooter, they're really here because of the sunk cost fallacy, not because they're having any actual fun.  Typical of anyone playing any progression game, like most MMO's - they're bored and going through the motions, but they can't bear the thought of "throwing away" all that investment.  Sure, they'll claim they're having fun doing [insert most efficient mission completion behavior here] but I know most of Warframe's long time players were having fun with a Braton/Strun/Paris MKI and little to no power what-so-ever at one point in their career.

Most that remain are here to get that last price of the latest drops , the ones that are having fun are still having fun in whatever they want.

Those that arent are mix between those with sunk cost fallacy as you mentioned and too bored toplay anything else while still being addicted to the gameplay,

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that'd be cool

and maybe for something like sabotage/capture/rescue

 

like you said about the part where you have to get the key from the captain

there is no objective marker and you'll have to search the tileset. maybe they could leave hints by certain items being at the door indicating that this is the correct way or something like finding the Simaris targets

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