On "Infused Abilities" and "Overwhelming Choices"

[Traumtulpe]

On 2020-08-12 at 7:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

Why did these Infused Warframe Abilities get nerfed?
It was apparent in player feedback and play testing that these Infused Warframe Abilities had the potential to be the overwhelming choice; which is not ideal.

Did you consider that many other abilities are simply not worth using at all? You do remember your stated intention of buffing the less desirable options, both for subsuming, and in general, right? Because you just did the opposite.

To be fair, you did buff Airburst - nobody will ever want to infuse it still, but since Zephyr is stuck with the ability that's good for her.

How about Terrify? Why would anyone want to use it over one of the other, better, CC abilities? They wouldn't.

Shooting Gallery? Does 25% base damage (a small fraction of a mod) and CC on 3 enemies sound good to you? Not to me.

Mind Control? The worse version of a bad ability. No thank you.

There is more, but the point should have come across: If you don't want the player to have an easy choice, don't make him choose between trash and treasure. Your plan of making the trash more appealing by drilling holes into the treasure, and hitting it a couple times with a hammer, doesn't seem well thought out.

These nerfs will either accomplish nothing except disappointment, or promt a new meta - in either case we must surely expect another wave of nerfs. So the current outlook is constant nerfs until no good ability is left. Is that really the anticipation you want your players to have?

[DrivaMain]

If you look it from the perspective of players who despise the Meta. You can see those abilities minus Airburst have it’s uses. I will sure as heck put Mind Control on my most used frames.
 

These abilities may not be able to turn off the AI or nuke the entire level, but they are still good enough to have some fun with it.
 

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

That’s obviously too much work for DE. It’s much easier for them to just nerf the good options and claim it has the same results as buffing the bad abilities.

[DeadlySurgeon]

All done in the name of not crowding out the absolutely 100% viable alternatives.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

These abilities have uses, even if you don't think they do. 

[Traumtulpe]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

These abilities have uses, even if you don't think they do.

How about an example for each?

[Colyeses]

6 hours ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

These abilities have uses, even if you don't think they do. 

But are these uses extensive enough to justify building a new warframe, feeding Helminth, and deleting an already existing ability over?

[SweetAnubis]

8 hours ago, DeadlySurgeon said:

All done in the name of not crowding out the absolutely 100% viable alternatives.

thats just it tho they are reducing build variety by nerfing the useful ones not increasing.

however, if they buffed all the generic 31 flavors of basic damage abilities with diferent types of utility instead  or just replaced them with diferent utility abilities then that would increase build variety.

if a person is given the choice between damage buff armor buff crowd control or 31 types of basic damage theres no variety. but throw in some diferent types of aoe abilities, bubble abilities, travel abilities (other than non stop super speed), loot abilities, armor or shield strip abilities etc then you start getting some variety and players with diferent playstyles start saying ooh look choices that fill holes in my playstyle or my fav frame

[Kaotis]

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

To be fair, you did buff Airburst - nobody will ever want to infuse it still, but since Zephyr is stuck with the ability that's good for her.

if you are vauban , nidus or any current or future cc mostly frame and want some more cc there you go

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

How about Terrify? Why would anyone want to use it over one of the other, better, CC abilities? They wouldn't.

The augment makes the afected npc slower so there you got variety in cc

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

Shooting Gallery? Does 25% base damage (a small fraction of a mod) and CC on 3 enemies sound good to you? Not to me.

if you use weapons and want some cc to go with the buf there you have it , Inaros or loki (2 examples of frames that have garbage tier kits) won't mind. 

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

Mind Control? The worse version of a bad ability. No thank you.

Instantly turn highest threat enemy on yoour side with scaling damage. If you don't like it dosn't mean you are the submit of player hive mind to cast jugement.

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

There is more, but the point should have come across: If you don't want the player to have an easy choice, don't make him choose between trash and treasure. Your plan of making the trash more appealing by drilling holes into the treasure, and hitting it a couple times with a hammer, doesn't seem well thought out.

Some one's trash is some one's treasure... maybe you don't like molt ... some players might be over the moon , some may hate firewalker ... others can't wait to put it on volt or gaus... etc

hace 10 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

These nerfs will either accomplish nothing except disappointment, or promt a new meta - in either case we must surely expect another wave of nerfs. So the current outlook is constant nerfs until no good ability is left. Is that really the anticipation you want your players to have?

Aldo i have pointed out why you are wrong about your previous statements, i do agree with you on the fact that nerfing compeling abilities or better said , optimal options won't fix anything.

I for one prefer to fight with melee mostly (even before the 3.0 rework... or better said 2.8 version we have now) so valkyr was going to go to the digestive trackt first after they anouced the list of abilities. Now it's weaker ... ok i'm stil gonna want that atack speed + arcanas. Only real thing they managed is lower my expectations for this mode, i won't be farming grendel again for some extra damage that i don't realy need.

[SweetAnubis]

3 minutes ago, kaotis said:

s trash is some one's treasure... maybe you don't like molt ... some players might be over the moon , some may hate firewalker ... others can't wait to put it on volt or gaus... etc
 

while true to an extent (i'd love to have ripline or dashline on my heavy slow frame simply for the mobility it provides), there is however that multiple near identical skills that all do essentially the same thing: basic damage to not very many enemies. where on the other hand they could have added more variety instead.

5 minutes ago, kaotis said:

 

I for one prefer to fight with melee mostly (even before the 3.0 rework... or better said 2.8 version we have now) so valkyr was going to go to the digestive trackt first after they anouced the list of abilities now it's weaker ... ok i'm stil gonna want that atack speed + arcanas. Only real thign they managed is lower my expectations for this mode, i won't be farming grendel again for some extra damage that i don't realy need.

i hate to say but same here.... with the poor selection of 90% of the abilities and lack of the promised buffs of said abilities as a melee player warcry is my only choice.... wont do much , but i already have good ability duration and ability strength on my melee frame so it'll give a decent boost, but even if that wasnt the case a small buff is still better than an energy hog ragdoll effect that does next to no damage.

[Kaotis]

hace 6 minutos, SweetAnubis dijo:

there is however that multiple near identical skills that all do essentially the same thing: basic damage

Ye but in reality that's not this system's fault, it's the warframe design. Latest warframes all had at least 1 damaging thing , 1 cc then depending on the theme another cc/damage and finaly survivability. (gaus, baruk , the new dude? that isn't out yet all have , cc, damage boost, damage key , survival thing). Protea for example , shield balls= survival, shrapner thingy = damage+ stager cc , definetly not a turret for the player base .inc = damage key , dispensery = survival , time ain't got anythng on me = survival +mediocre damge + damage boost to the kit ( if you have somewhat infinite energy and spam your abilities it's thecnicaly a boost)

hace 14 minutos, SweetAnubis dijo:

but even if that wasnt the case a small buff is still better than an energy hog ragdoll effect that does next to no damage

Stil better than runing around with your frame not ussing any of it's abilities, at least that energy will be useful xD

[SweetAnubis]

9 minutes ago, kaotis said:

 

Stil better than runing around with your frame not ussing any of it's abilities, at least that energy will be useful xD

oh no i use two of his abilities frequently... pocket sand and status immunity... er i mean desiccation and scarab swarm

[Kaotis]

hace 8 minutos, SweetAnubis dijo:

pocket sand and status immunity

then DE came by and droped primed sure footed  

[SweetAnubis]

7 minutes ago, kaotis said:

then DE came by and droped primed sure footed  

doesn't solve the rest of the ailments tho.... like the stupid pull!!! go thats annoying when you get 10 pullers arround you and ur just stuck bein pulled arround for a full min.

[Traumtulpe]

1 hour ago, kaotis said:

if you are vauban , nidus or any current or future cc mostly frame and want some more cc there you go

The augment makes the afected npc slower so there you got variety in cc

if you use weapons and want some cc to go with the buf there you have it , Inaros or loki (2 examples of frames that have garbage tier kits) won't mind. 

Instantly turn highest threat enemy on yoour side with scaling damage.

You kinda missed the point. Let's go through the abilities:

• Airburst - 50 energy, slow, low range, CC for ~3 seconds, enemies fall vaguely towards a point. Have you ever seen Ensnare? It's the same but 20x as good (and also available for subsuming), except it doesn't make headshots harder.
• Terrify - 75 energy, terrible CC, augment required, low range, strength required. It's trash whichever way you look at it. Even Radial Blind is far superior (and that one isn't exactly a winner either).
• Shooting Gallery - 25% base damage is NOTHING. CC on 3 out of 20 enemies is NOTHING. This ability is nothing.
• Mind Control - 25 energy to CC one enemy. Just no. The damage will never be relevant.

I honestly believe you have never used any of these abilities. They are terrible.

[Kaotis]

hace 28 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

I honestly believe you have never used any of these abilities. They are terrible.

Airburst in it's old form probably 10 times on normal zephir then 13 times on primed version and 0 since.

Terrify surprisingly usefull in defense target situations when playing tank nekros.

Shooting Gallery 24/7 on my main messa.

Min control same as airburst mostly.

hace 28 minutos, Traumtulpe dijo:

You kinda missed the point. Let's go through the abilities:

• Airburst - 50 energy, slow, low range, CC for ~3 seconds, enemies fall vaguely towards a point. Have you ever seen Ensnare? It's the same but 20x as good (and also available for subsuming), except it doesn't make headshots harder.
• Terrify - 75 energy, terrible CC, augment required, low range, strength required. It's trash whichever way you look at it. Even Radial Blind is far superior (and that one isn't exactly a winner either).
• Shooting Gallery - 25% base damage is NOTHING. CC on 3 out of 20 enemies is NOTHING. This ability is nothing.
• Mind Control - 25 energy to CC one enemy. Just no. The damage will never be relevant.

I haven't said they are the most op things in the world go grab them. I said they are usable if the playstile or the right warframe comes and it's kit works well with them. 

Mind Control scales the damage your new minion deals from the damage you inflict on in in the first 4 secs if i'm not wrong.  

Terrify is a perfect get away from my safe zone ability for any defense target situation.

Also Shooting Gallery is 25% bonus damage, with some free cc . Is it the best? no! but sure as fck beats trowing sand in eyes of enemy for some hp regen when you haven't lost 5% of hp in hours of playing ...

The point i was trying to convey is that depending on the situation or the kit of the warframe every ability can be worth it.

From your coments i'm getting the feeling that you haven't ussed many warframes that aren't meta.  Pointing out ensnare just as Khora is geting so popular that DE might nerf her 1 any moment now, instead of i don't know Vauban's black hole ? <--- Also have you seen ensnare's traverse time to grab more enemyies you call that fast ? rather grab a aoe weapon and deal real permanent cc that the npc won't be coming back from.

P.S. you say the energy costs at base ... you will most likly have streamline at least ...

[Althaline]

41 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

Shooting Gallery - 25% base damage is NOTHING. CC on 3 out of 20 enemies is NOTHING. This ability is nothing.

Don't forget that it applies to you and a squadmate, and applies its CC every couple of seconds. I have a feeling you're basing your opinions on its stats without using it in a practical scenario.
Also, this reminds me of the old Mesa build I had that used the Augment to blind everyone... good times, fun meme. I miss the old Augment.

[Traumtulpe]

39 minutes ago, kaotis said:

Also Shooting Gallery is 25% bonus damage

22 minutes ago, Iamabearlulz said:

I have a feeling you're basing your opinions on its stats without using it in a practical scenario.

It is 25% base damage. For the most extreme example, you already have 620% base damage with Hornet Strike and Arcane Precision. So that won't even increase your damage by 5%.

It is worse than , which is never used.

I use Mesa. There is no point bothering to keep it active. It makes no difference.

[Kaotis]

hace 7 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

It is 25% base damage. For the most extreme example, you already have 620% base damage with Hornet Strike and Arcane Precision. So that won't even increase your damage by 5%.

Exact wording is : "Extra damage" and works also primary weapons, not to mention scales with power streght.

hace 7 horas, Traumtulpe dijo:

I use Mesa. There is no point bothering to keep it active. It makes no difference.

Dude if you don't want to get 25% damage you don't have to. 25% base or bonus or what ever it is damage is better than 0 bonus/extra/base damage plain and simple.

You wana cry about them nerfing or changing some things? go at it . It will change sooooo many thing... just like the black scuare on twitter profiles ... 

The fact of the matter is that every abilitie can be useful in certain situations , even fcking decoy can turn npc "AI" off if placed in good spots in certain map segments. Your opinion of them being useless is just that your opinion. You most likely hardly use them and that explains why you wouldn't know how to use them or see a use case for them.

Again... i'm not saying this are the be all end all of what we can get from the system, but they are usable and with new frames comes every x months eventualy some kits will work with them or they will get reworked.

[DrivaMain]

1 hour ago, Traumtulpe said:

Mind Control - 25 energy to CC one enemy. Just no. The damage will never be relevant.

1. It is relevant if you managed to control a hard hitting enemy : Grineer Napalm, Hyekka Masters, Scorch, Juno Elite Crewman, Corpus Tech, Conclulyst, Mutalist Ospreys. Charge them to around 2000% damage and you can see them annihilate hordes.

2. The mind control target has a very high threat level. Good to draw enemy aggro away from you.

What mind control lacks is the duration and you can only control 1 while others like Revenant and Nekros can have 7. 

Making mind control base duration longer or no duration at all and allowing the player to control more than 1 will boost this ability back to relevantness.

[Traumtulpe]

1 minute ago, kaotis said:

You most likely hardly use them and that explains why you wouldn't know how to use them or see a use case for them.

I recently farmed Protea (guess why) solo, using Mesa. At first I activated Shooting Gallery immediately after entering the rift... after a couple of runs I just stopped. It makes NO difference.

It is particularly useless on Mesa though, since it is (as mentioned) base damage, and Peacemaker has a bunch of base damage by default for some reason. Have fun casting your 5% damage buff I guess.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, Colyeses said:

But are these uses extensive enough to justify building a new warframe, feeding Helminth, and deleting an already existing ability over?

If you're an experienced player with the resources to spare and not a complete meta slave, yes.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

7 hours ago, Traumtulpe said:

How about an example for each?

How about reading your games own wiki instead of asking someone to type it out for you? 

If you're a meta slave that needs to overkill then it doesnt matter. 

In another post you already said why use terrify if other options exist. 

If you want to use Kronen primes and Saryns and kuva weapons that's ok. No one cares. 

But experienced people that get bored of that try other things and excel at them. 

[Traumtulpe]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)Madurai-Prime said:

But experienced people that get bored of that try other things and excel at them.

"Look at me, I am an experienced player. I win the game with a Braton MK1 and use garbage abilities because I am so smart!"

Whatever makes you happy.

[(PSN)Madurai-Prime]

5 minutes ago, Traumtulpe said:

"Look at me, I am an experienced player. I win the game with a Braton MK1 and use garbage abilities because I am so smart!"

Whatever makes you happy.

"Look at me, I need completely over the top OP abilities because muh devs said ima power Fantasy I'm so strong! If It can't carry me I call it trash!"