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Why DE is loosing money


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16 hours ago, Agnostus said:

and make everything instantly available.

And I stopped reading there.

 

This is just a bad idea. New players would have no reason to actually play the game if they just get everything shoved up their rear end, and veterans would get cheated on because all the work they put in is rendered meaningless.

Edited by o0Despair0o
typo
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1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

It’s not important how many players are playing but how many of them are willing to pay.

Yeah no. F2P models are based on the expectation that most people will spend little to no money. But those players are still important, as their interest tends to draw others who may be willing to pay even if just to save time. The prime junk market is proof of this. Those sellers are vital to the game, not because they pay money, but because they make it better for those who do pay. 

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Whats is really needed is a plat sink thats worthwhile for veterans, without feeling forced.

DE KNOWS! that vets dont spend much ,  as they can trade for plat with all the stuff that we have stockpiled.

Me personally , i am very patient , i dont rush items , i dont buy frames as they come out , i dont need boosters cause FOMO does not impact me like it does many others.

I only buy plat when i feel the update has been good (and i get an acceptable discount coupon :P) the only trades i do for plat are ones where i dont bother (ultra rare prime parts behind ultra rare axi drops behind ultra rare mission drops etc.)

I also dont actively sell my junk , and when i decide to trade i usually get more than i have to spend so plat just keeps adding up.

 

If here was a mechanism where a small percentage of my plat earned/spent was "taxed" for the ability to let me set up a shop where anyone can come and purchase my wares i would not mind.

*i wonder if i fooled anyone in agreeing to an auction house with that comment*

 

Also since i dont know about DEs financial situation , i dont knwo if they are actually losing anything.

The OP is also sounding very .... EA level predatory , in active sense , and not DE level monetization.

Edited by 0_The_F00l
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17 hours ago, Agnostus said:

 By making the game harder and in some cases MR locked, DE would benefit by:

  • Soft - forcing low MR players to buy platinum in order to access the newest content faster
  • Giving low MR players a sense of progression and keep them active for longer 
  • Giving high MR players a sense of validation for all the time and preparation they've already put in the game

 

Has Bungie made another Warframe Player their Slave?

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The main problem is the player retention more than anything, most people just quit because game is so unfriendly to new players - it's unplayable without wiki or guides. Everything is too confusing and obscured - its even worse than just grind, because new people wouldnt even know what to grind where! Only those who get hooked on WF and keep on playing spend the money on plat and cosmetics.

Mastery is a bad system that needs a redesign and not more things tied to it. Progression needs a redesign to be more friendly to new players too - and not in a way to make everything accessible right away, but to make it more guided and clear what to do, teach the players step by step. New players dont even know what is Mastery and how it works, affinity system is confusing as hell.

If they make Helminth locked in a new 'syndicate' just - like Fortuna had locked out frames - then most people simply wont get there because of ridiculous low daily caps ( remember - they are very low for low MR) and the random grind. Solaris still needs those rare bonds that never drop and people just give up on it - that badly needs a fix!

Edited by Monolake
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4 minutes ago, Monolake said:

If they make Helminth locked in a new 'syndicate' just - like Fortuna had locked out frames - then most people simply wont get there because of ridiculous low daily caps ( remember - they are very low for low MR) and the random grind. Solaris still needs those rare bonds that never drop and people just give up on it - that badly needs a fix!

Debt bonds can be purchased directly from Ticker the shop that sits above Biz now there really should be some way of finding that out in game other than noticing the mini map symbol or the fast travel page.

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4 minutes ago, Troposphere6 said:

Debt bonds can be purchased directly from Ticker the shop that sits above Biz now there really should be some way of finding that out in game other than noticing the mini map symbol or the fast travel page.

he raraly sells those particular ones, people complain they check daily for weeks before they appear in Ticker stock

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I think their current model is good, and i don't think they're "losing" money. They don't need to make all the money in the world at once, and break the game for the future, Warframe is a game people can easily fluctuate in and out of, and that's what the devs are comfortable with.
I agree that they lack in several things, and the main one they lack in is a goal to keep those that don't really want to stop playing can follow. That means a proper end-game experience. But that in itself will not really improve their earnings, because the goal should never put players in a position where they feel forced to spend money. That's when games become P2W, and Warframe has been doing a good job of toeing the line.

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6 hours ago, KrazyKavatLady said:

DE really needs to take a hint and do proper drops like other games have on Twitch.

Example: Escape From Tarkov.

They do drops for days at a time, and they're typically not S#&$ drops either.

So this draws in new people and returning players. And that = more money.

Plus these drops are usually connected to well known EFT streamers, so those streamers also encourage people to learn about the game and possibly play it as well. This is something DE needs to push for MORE with their Creators program.

Instead what we have is typically.... S#&$ drops, 3 times a week. And one of those days (Wednesday) the stream is super #*!%ing early for westerners (It's 8 A.M for those in Mountain Time) so many end up not being able to even watch the stream to get the twitch drop. DE should instead have their Creators deal with the drops at more convenient times. 

But sadly, the above makes too much sense, so it will never happen.

DE does have proper drops. 500 ducats is like 20 runs of hard work for me. And you can't be serious and tell me a fully assembled khora pices are not proper drops. One, it's in prep for heart of deimos, two, if this is not a proper drop, well guess what. It will save you 12 hours of build time, resources, credits, and farming time.

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17 hours ago, Agnostus said:

First of all, let me clarify the title of the post; when i say "loosing money" i mean they could make a whole lot more by changing the game's mentality to serve the low MR player base and make everything instantly available.

I feel a good portion of the game is already catered towards the occasional player base/new players. If they are losing money through players it's not because of the game but more so the community is changing. Different mindset. A more potentially entitled generation has moved in since when the game was released. A lot of veteran players have left due to burnout or overall changes they did not like or perhaps a growing toxic community. It's best things are introduced in stages. A big reason why some players leave is because the game is already so complex, it can be a bit intimidating for new players who don't have any help or direction. Lack of tutorials also doesn't help.  So throwing the entire toolbox of tools at a newbie who doesn't even know what a hammer is used for, isn't always a good thing, especially when they don't know that they will be working glass sometimes and a hammer isn't always the best choice. 

I meant to write this post a long time ago, but the recent change to the hemlinth system of making accessible to MR8 players really stuck with me.

I feel the helminth system is sort of a grab to bring some players back, but also an attempt to breathe a little life into the game. They are just giving us more options of ways to play. This game is a spider web that just keeps growing

Correct me if Im wrong, but Im pretty sure the idea behind the whole accessibility model is to serve the new content immediately to the masses in order to keep them happy. Keep in mind that the majority of the player base - as stated by DE themselves- is around MR12.  

The majority of the current player base hasn't completed everything there is to do in the game, so why would they need to keep the masses happy, if they still have 20 frames, hundreds of weapons and empty quest lines still to complete, not including the star chart among other things. Usually veterans are the ones with pretty much 100% completion status, who are wanting the challenging new content, or just something else different to do. DE pushes out new content to push out new content. They're just in the process of expanding their game. Some content is intended for the majority and some content is intended for more "end game" players. 

BUT!

If DE decided to make the content MR locked to lets say even above MR15, lets put it at MR20, this is an easily attainable goal for an MR12 in a matter of weeks. The easiest way to reach that is by buying primed frames and weapons or even farm for normal frames. The way to expedite this process is obviously platinum, aka $$ for DE.

DE already has RNG and time on their side. So add impatient new players who want something right away rather than having to work for it or those who don't mind working for it but don't know how to or that they can, so they just purchase the items with real money via platinum, rather than trading for platinum or blueprints etc. Or they just lose interest and go play another game, because they aren't invested in their mind enough to play towards the item they want or to pay towards the item they want. Either way. These aren't the only variables. Even some long time players will spend money because DE will offer a "limited time" item only available through cash. I think certain content needs to remain MR locked, because at least by then those people who reach the MR should have a grasp of what it takes to get to where they have gotten, regardless of how they got there. Skill doesn't equal MR though.

BUT! 

Platinum, in the case of prime parts, is paid to other players, not to DE / marketplace! -you'd say- this is mostly not the case. Platinum is accumulated by high MR players and usually its stuck there. Personally im sitting on around 12k plat and this amount has been out of the economy for more than 2 years because i fluctuate from 12k - 15k all the time and never needed to fall below that!

Someone had to buy that plat with real cash in order to be able to have it floating about the economy. Once platinum is paid for its paid for, it does not keep regenerating income for DE. I look at platinum as shares in DE, the more platinum that's created through a real cash sale, the more diminished in value your current shares are. As platinum is kept through players and paid to market place it re balances things.

By making the game harder and in some cases MR locked, DE would benefit by:

  • Soft - forcing low MR players to buy platinum in order to access the newest content faster
  • Giving low MR players a sense of progression and keep them active for longer 
  • Giving high MR players a sense of validation for all the time and preparation they've already put in the game

Why do low MR players need to rush or access new content faster? Low MR players primarily leave due to lack of a proper tutorial, lack of interest, and no insight in the game model, or just not having a good regular group to play with,. Seeing ones own personal arsenal accumulation and skills/knowledge of the game grow should be enough sense of progression, for some you would think. Some things should be MR locked, but MR doesn't represent consistent play time or overall skill. It's just a representation of how many things you have leveled, and potentially either built or bought. How you got there is dependent on each individual player. 

There almost needs to be some type of current meter on players to show how active they are. A decaying progression system that if you don't play for a few days you begin lose points and eventually going back down to zero. Being there to mainly track consistency in playing and overall effort exerted into the game. See a high MR doesn't mean they play a lot and doesn't mean a low MR plays for little. My take at least. Would show the players who sits around and who does stuff. Daily logins dont mean anything, other than you just logged in. Does playtime also show time spent sitting around on a players ship?

The whole topic above can be expanded to challenging content altogether.

Making Steel Path - a mode that for a newer player is kind of challenging and at least forces him/her to optimize their build a bit more- a true end-game experience by providing some fair rewards (umbra formas and riven stat lockers - where u can lock one of the stats when rolling) would also have similar results as stated above!

I really look forward to reading your comments, hopefully not derailing that much from the original topic, and that the post gets enough friction so that the devs get a look at it!

Stay safe everyone! 

 

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18 hours ago, Agnostus said:

Soft - forcing low MR players to buy platinum in order to access the newest content faster

I didn't knew you could buy Mastery Rank directly with Platinum! What a shock!!

Sarcasm aside, no one is forcing you to buy platinum. If you think DE is forcing you to buy platinum to get the new content faster, show me proof of it. To me, it looks like is just your personal view of things, your personal feelings about being "forced" to pay money to access to the latest content.

But is your money, you decide what to do with it. if you feel that you have to spend platinum to get to the new content, then i think you need to go to a hospital or something to get your brain checked.

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1 minute ago, Yakhul said:

I didn't knew you could buy Mastery Rank directly with Platinum! What a shock!!

Sarcasm aside, no one is forcing you to buy platinum. If you think DE is forcing you to buy platinum to get the new content faster, show me proof of it. To me, it looks like is just your personal view of things, your personal feelings about being "forced" to pay money to access to the latest content.

But is your money, you decide what to do with it. if you feel that you have to spend platinum to get to the new content, then i think you need to go to a hospital or something to get your brain checked.

Read the whole OP, not just a single line of it.

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57 minutes ago, Yakhul said:

I didn't knew you could buy Mastery Rank directly with Platinum!

Technically you can I bought Gauss and Harrow so I technically bought their MR, also the OP isn't complaining about spending platinum to progress, they are ADVOCATING FOR IT.

Hence the "Is that you EA?" comment of mine.

Edited by Aldain
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1 hour ago, (PS4)guzmantt1977 said:

Yeah no. F2P models are based on the expectation that most people will spend little to no money. But those players are still important, as their interest tends to draw others who may be willing to pay even if just to save time. The prime junk market is proof of this. Those sellers are vital to the game, not because they pay money, but because they make it better for those who do pay. 

Until there are players willing to pay and here is second purpose of players, more or less experienced, not willing to pay, play in PuGs to holding players, willing to pay mostly newbies, in game as long as possible. Unfortunately the trend is go to Solo, while nobody is useless then player playing Solo with 0 money spent. As I already stated few times ago: Who is more important, You who made Spy Solo under 3 min, with 0 money spent, or whale which left the game after entering Spy with Rhino several times and gave up because nobody helped? Question also is: How many active players worldwide already played WF, left and never come back? Because human resource isn’t endless in short period like 5-10 years.

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23 hours ago, Darkest_Fire said:

And you can't be serious and tell me a fully assembled khora pices are not proper drops.

You realize this will likely be a one-time thing right?

That's what I mean. We get bad drops 99% of the time.

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Hey OP, please learn to not worry about companies finances, they don't care about you when it comes to their money because that money is for them and not for you.

Beyond that, DE makes money by getting people to play the game, have fun, lock them in with more fun stuff and then realizing "hey, nova prime looks like trash, im going to buy the deluxe skin because it look very good"

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1 hour ago, (PS4)Onder6099 said:

Until there are players willing to pay and here is second purpose of players, more or less experienced, not willing to pay, play in PuGs to holding players, willing to pay mostly newbies, in game as long as possible. Unfortunately the trend is go to Solo, while nobody is useless then player playing Solo with 0 money spent. As I already stated few times ago: Who is more important, You who made Spy Solo under 3 min, with 0 money spent, or whale which left the game after entering Spy with Rhino several times and gave up because nobody helped? Question also is: How many active players worldwide already played WF, left and never come back? Because human resource isn’t endless in short period like 5-10 years.

Hold up. Rhino's a great frame for doing spy missions, just turn on iron skin and waltz through the mission singing the dilligaf song. 

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1 minute ago, Darkest_Fire said:

it's a spy mission, dummy. You can't be seen.

You can do Spy missions just fine with Rhino. Trick is kill the enemies before they set off alarms, and avoid the lasers.

 

Don't need stealth if you leave no witnesses :P

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3 hours ago, 0_The_F00l said:

Whats is really needed is a plat sink thats worthwhile for veterans, without feeling forced.

DE KNOWS! that vets dont spend much ,  as they can trade for plat with all the stuff that we have stockpiled.

Me personally , i am very patient , i dont rush items , i dont buy frames as they come out , i dont need boosters cause FOMO does not impact me like it does many others.

I only buy plat when i feel the update has been good (and i get an acceptable discount coupon :P) the only trades i do for plat are ones where i dont bother (ultra rare prime parts behind ultra rare axi drops behind ultra rare mission drops etc.)

I also dont actively sell my junk , and when i decide to trade i usually get more than i have to spend so plat just keeps adding up.

 

If here was a mechanism where a small percentage of my plat earned/spent was "taxed" for the ability to let me set up a shop where anyone can come and purchase my wares i would not mind.

*i wonder if i fooled anyone in agreeing to an auction house with that comment*

 

Also since i dont know about DEs financial situation , i dont knwo if they are actually losing anything.

The OP is also sounding very .... EA level predatory , in active sense , and not DE level monetization.

Funnily enough Helminth is kind of what you're asking for, in a much more limited fashion. 

Why not have it so getting Helminth to max rank lets you convert materials at 50% conversion rate? Want some more Orokin Catalysts? Throw in two Reactors and you get one Catalyst. Have too much Alloy Plate? Make some Polymer, or Plastids, and with the 50% conversion rate this will easily mow through stockpiles while not necessarily being the best option, but a faster option. Helminth won't receive secretions from this of course, but maybe his "happiness" meter could affect it in some way, so that your less incentivized to constantly swap over giant piles. Maybe the conversion rate starts off at 100% but lowers to 50% based on how happy/unhappy Helminth is? The more materials you Convert, the angrier he gets since you're not actually Feeding him. 

Maybe keep that function to an MR lock instead, if the rank limitation is deemed too much of a leap. Just have a small icon on the side, allowing you to swap from "Feed" to "Convert". Converting takes a full day or something but you can spend Plat to rush it. Now we have a material converter and a recurring Plat sink. Of course, if you truly want an effective Veteran plat sink, Consoles do that very well considering the fact each cosmetic costs Plat. Why not release some ridiculous cosmetics that cost only Plat, as if I recall correctly, PC only has raw money costs.

Although, please, for the love of god, no auction house. Ever.

Anyways on to the topic at hand, I think DE has a better idea of how to run their company than most of us. We don't know much about the inner-workings about the company anyway, so I don't really see the point in entertaining this kind of discussion. Regardless, your suggestions are quite honestly awful and would just lead to massive issues, please at least try to suggest worthwhile ideas to DE.

Edited by (XB1)Graysmog
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18 minutes ago, HoustonDragon said:

You can do Spy missions just fine with Rhino. Trick is kill the enemies before they set off alarms, and avoid the lasers.

 

Don't need stealth if you leave no witnesses 😛

Why bother? You're Rhino. The enemies and lasers don't slow you down, and you get to the console with time to spare because going slow is for squishies. 😜

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24 minutes ago, Darkest_Fire said:

it's a spy mission, dummy. You can't be seen.

 
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Whyever not? Because they're going to set off alarms that you don't care about, shoot at you with bullets that don't do anything, and begin the destruction countdown when you are seconds away from taking the data and leaving anyway? Or because they use laser traps that don't even tickle when you bullet jump through them? 

My bright red Rhino doesn't care. 😆

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