[Suggestion] How to improve Helminth system and circumvent best in slot problem

[Nebujoka]

From what I have seen in social media lately there seems to be a concern about "must-have" skills or "best in slots" for the new upcoming Helminth system.

This seems to come from the fact that there is only a certain list of skills available to the system and for balancing reasons.

Here is a rough idea how to eleminate the problem of a single skill or only a limited group of skills to be of interest to be used in the system and others being not very desirable.

Instead of having the biggest benefit being the skill itself which has been infused by Helminth, the idea is to have certain groups of skills (for example crowd control, buffs or heals) trigger secondary effects which only can come from the Helminth infused skill.

For example triggering a crowd control effect on an enemy by casting an infused skill will then trigger a very beneficial secondary effect like an aoe damage or a short damage buff (which would lessen the importance of having roar as Helminth skill for example).

This effect can maybe be chosen in a Helminth specific skill tree similar to the focus system.
It could be made so the skills are dependent on which warframe class they are used or maybe the warframes defining element (Like in the kuva lich system)
But it may be also desirable to have a more selective approach and let the player have full control over what will trigger in a deeper more worked out skill tree. (which determines what can be triggered by which skill effect (not everything is possible with every skill))

The biggest benefit of such a system would be that there is a multitude of similar skills that all can be classified as certain groups (like mentioned before: cc, buff, heal, damage) which then are way easier to balance in the system as a whole for further expansion because of reducing the number of permutations to take into consideration.

This would lead to much more freedom in the choice of which skill to use because of the secondary effect being the actual benefit. And therefore leads to much more diversity and also to more freedom to use what fits your playstyle best.

 

[tl;dr]

Use secondary effects instead of the skill itself being the big benefit

Group similar skills together for triggering secondary effects

Make skilltree for which secondary effect to proc (depends on what skill is used)

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

Or they can not over complicate the system and just buff the bad abilities.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

14 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

just buff the bad abilities

As it's been said before, the issue DE wanted to address with the nerfs was the gap between S-tier and A-tier, not the gap between D-tier and A-tier. Buffing Mind Control or Pull to A-tier is meaningless if they're still massively far behind a small handful of obvious best options. If we're going to criticize DE for anything, it should be their decision to include S-tier abilities like Roar and Larva in the first place.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

1 hour ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

As it's been said before, the issue DE wanted to address with the nerfs was the gap between S-tier and A-tier, not the gap between D-tier and A-tier. Buffing Mind Control or Pull to A-tier is meaningless if they're still massively far behind a small handful of obvious best options. If we're going to criticize DE for anything, it should be their decision to include S-tier abilities like Roar and Larva in the first place.

And that’s where you’re wrong. If the buffs are good enough then the abilities could open up far more compelling options than just throwing roar on.

 

[Xylena_Lazarow]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

And that’s where you’re wrong. If the buffs are good enough then the abilities could open up far more compelling options than just throwing roar on.

Should Airburst or Pull be as powerful as an un-nerfed Larva? Maybe? Is that really what you're asking for, every ability to be S-tier?

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

3 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Should Airburst or Pull be as powerful as an un-nerfed Larva? Maybe? Is that really what you're asking for, every ability to be S-tier?

Air burst could be almost as good as Larva. If the enemies actually got sucked up into the center instead of just being slumped in the direction of it.

Pull could be useful if DE buffed its energy generation.

These abilities don’t have to be big unga bunga Damage abilities to be compelling. They just have to provide unique and interesting mechanics that could potentially greatly benefit frames that the abilities subsumed on.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

32 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

These abilities don’t have to be big unga bunga Damage abilities to be compelling. They just have to provide unique and interesting mechanics that could potentially greatly benefit frames that the abilities subsumed on.

This is true about the majority of abilities in the Helminth system already, so why are so many players fixated on only the top 5 and bottom 5?

I'm really looking forward to abilities like Reave that will be much better on frames other than their progenitors.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

On 2020-08-22 at 11:07 AM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

This is true about the majority of abilities in the Helminth system already, so why are so many players fixated on only the top 5 and bottom 5?

I'm really looking forward to abilities like Reave that will be much better on frames other than their progenitors.

There’s always going to be a meta. The point is to make everything below that almost as good, not bring the meta down to trash tier.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

27 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The point is to make everything below that almost as good

Is it wise or practical for DE to rebalance and buff 30+ frame abilities in order to preserve the power ceiling of the top 5?

I wonder if it would've been less upsetting to the nerf-sensitive if DE had instead swapped in other abilities, like Rhino Charge for Roar.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

50 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

Is it wise or practical for DE to rebalance and buff 30+ frame abilities in order to preserve the power ceiling of the top 5?

I wonder if it would've been less upsetting to the nerf-sensitive if DE had instead swapped in other abilities, like Rhino Charge for Roar.

Yes. Because nerfing the top abilities is not the same as buffing the bottom abilities. You’re making the system worse, not better.

If DE didn’t like the idea of giving Roar and Warcry as is then they never should have chosen those abilities in the first place. But they did so they were clearly ok with it until people started getting “too interested” and suddenly DE decided they don’t want the Helminth system to be good anymore.

[(PSN)haphazardlynamed]

On 2020-08-22 at 6:52 AM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

As it's been said before, the issue DE wanted to address with the nerfs was the gap between S-tier and A-tier, not the gap between D-tier and A-tier. Buffing Mind Control or Pull to A-tier is meaningless if they're still massively far behind a small handful of obvious best options. If we're going to criticize DE for anything, it should be their decision to include S-tier abilities like Roar and Larva in the first place.

Yup

I'm feeling like the 'S-Tier' stuff only got into the list because DE didn't have any other options they could substitute.

Alternate choices for those frames would have cut too much into the no "Signature Abilities" (whatever that means) limitation, so good stuff snuck in....

[Althaline]

5 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If DE didn’t like the idea of giving Roar and Warcry as is then they never should have chosen those abilities in the first place. But they did so they were clearly ok with it until people started getting “too interested” and suddenly DE decided they don’t want the Helminth system to be good anymore.

Quote

The following table outlines the current Ability a given Warframe will provide on the Subsume action. This is subject to change before launch. 

Remember that part of the Dev Workshop? The whole "Subject to change" is kind of important. Your complaint is unfounded. How would you have changed the abilities in a way that doesn't completely destroy any semblance of balance in the entire power system? Do you honestly believe that there was no cause for lowered stats in the clearly top-tier powers?

[SweetAnubis]

On 2020-08-22 at 7:52 AM, Xylena_Lazarow said:

As it's been said before, the issue DE wanted to address with the nerfs was the gap between S-tier and A-tier, not the gap between D-tier and A-tier. Buffing Mind Control or Pull to A-tier is meaningless if they're still massively far behind a small handful of obvious best options. If we're going to criticize DE for anything, it should be their decision to include S-tier abilities like Roar and Larva in the first place.

really doesnt matter that s tier are closser to a tier if all we have is s tier or D tier.... which is the main problem people have with nerfs instead of buffs here. and on top of it the fact they promised buffs yet nerf instead.

[SweetAnubis]

2 hours ago, (PS4)haphazardlynamed said:

Yup

I'm feeling like the 'S-Tier' stuff only got into the list because DE didn't have any other options they could substitute.

Alternate choices for those frames would have cut too much into the no "Signature Abilities" (whatever that means) limitation, so good stuff snuck in....

right because ripline is exactly what i think of on Valkyre... not warcry.... nah not at all...

[Xylena_Lazarow]

3 hours ago, SweetAnubis said:

all we have is s tier or D tier.... which is the main problem people have with nerfs instead of buffs

No, this is the fixation on the top 5 and bottom 5 that I'm referring to. None of the nerfophobes seem to care about the other 30ish viable unique interesting abilities, nor do they seem to care that DE actually did buff a couple of the D-tier abilities (Airburst and Well of Life) up to C-tier niche usefulness. This whole issue reduces to "nerfs feel bad." As for Valkyr, the nerf to Warcry won't even be felt because Berserker exists and the more relevant and powerful armor buff was left untouched. I was personally expecting them to choose Paralysis from Valkyr's kit.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

5 hours ago, Iamabearlulz said:

Remember that part of the Dev Workshop? The whole "Subject to change" is kind of important. Your complaint is unfounded. How would you have changed the abilities in a way that doesn't completely destroy any semblance of balance in the entire power system? Do you honestly believe that there was no cause for lowered stats in the clearly top-tier powers?

They still chose those abilities. And if it is subject to change they’re going about the wrong changes. Nerfing the abilities people were interested isn’t going to get anyone more excited for the system. Buffing the bad abilities to create more interesting combinations does.

The is absolutely zero cause for nerfing any ability available to be subsumed.

[Nebujoka]

There are really a lot of Warframes that have lost power in comparison to other Warframes over time. And a lot of them could really use buffs. But in a lot of cases you can not simply multiply the corresponding number of a skill to buff it because either the skill itself is too complex or its side effects would throw the whole warframe out of balance into overpoweredness. And of course YES there are also Frames that are blatantly neglected.

But how do you compare completely different effects in power? It basilcy comes down to their usefulness in certain situations. And those situations will continue to change. Thats the problem with metas. There will always be a "best choice" for a "biggest problem". And anywhere later in the future there will be another "best choice" for another "biggest problem".

That balancing spiral will always go downward... on... and on...

If you bind that problem to a single skill like now in the Helminth system where you have to choose one skill to get the benefit of the skill itself there will always be the same "best choice" for the "biggest problem" regardless of how many good choices you got... (especially if you take the effort into consideration to get those skills... but let's see how this really plays ot if it is live)

But if you make the system not so direct you suddenly have multiple solutions for the same problerm because you have a group of skills that all can trigger the desired effect. For example if your Frame can really not use anything else than a Damage buff to get better, if you have a secondary effect damagebuff triggered by a group of skills you can use any of those skills for that. You then can use the skill that fits your playstyle best because its primary effect does not really matter...

[Monolake]

Thats too complex for DE to bother with also even more powerful.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

23 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

The is absolutely zero cause for nerfing any ability available to be subsumed.

By that logic, there's zero cause for buffing anything either. Let's all just get Roar and Larva then forget Helminth exists! Hek, let's just delete 95% of the game, since players don't actually want choice, they want to be hand fed the obvious best, so they can faceroll their way to REWARDS then cry content drought.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

32 minutes ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

By that logic, there's zero cause for buffing anything either. Let's all just get Roar and Larva then forget Helminth exists! Hek, let's just delete 95% of the game, since players don't actually want choice, they want to be hand fed the obvious best, so they can faceroll their way to REWARDS then cry content drought.

No, there’s cause to buff the bad abilities. Because DE should want to be expanding what can be done with the system, not restricting it.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Because DE should want to be expanding what can be done with the system, not restricting it.

If nerfing 5 abilities out of 40+ "restricts the system" ...I don't know what to tell you, maybe try a game without gear or builds.

[GEN-Son_17]

I just hate this argument. The pitchforks came out too quickly, in a whiney manner, from adults who have no idea what the actual reduction percentages will be or how it will really change the play-styles. Activating our courtroom powers doesn't help the yet-to-be issue either. All we're doing, once again, is stressing out DE on seriously none issues about a new system we have yet to test and evaluate! This is as irresponsible as it gets, especially from the youtubers like Brozime who went completely nuts about something HE HAS NOT PLAYED YET. 

Folks, while we may all think this is a good discussion or Law and Order practice, the reality is we have no right to attack a Dev team over this....and, yes, the complaints over this issue are attacks (remember, you haven't played with the system yet). Calm down, put away the law degrees and let's all just play the game, get to the system, actually USE the system, and THEN voice our opinions.

[(XBOX)GearsMatrix301]

2 hours ago, Xylena_Lazarow said:

If nerfing 5 abilities out of 40+ "restricts the system" ...I don't know what to tell you, maybe try a game without gear or builds.

It does. Because it makes less abilities appealing to use. Instead of making more abilities appealing to use.

If you think that nerfing a couple abilities has the same effect on players as buffing and improving the abilities they had no interest in using there is something seriously wrong with you.

[Xylena_Lazarow]

47 minutes ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

If you think that nerfing a couple abilities has the same effect on players as buffing and improving the abilities they had no interest in using there is something seriously wrong with you.

Buffing garbage Well of Life and Airburst: no effect

Nerfing the Rubble component of Ore Gaze: no effect

Nerfing the utility of Quiver and Nourish: no effect

Nerfing the S-tier power ceiling: REEEEEEEEEEEEEE