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Heart of Deimos: Necramech Feedback Megathread


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10 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

mods need a higher drop rate or be simply put into the necraloid syndicate to buy 

^That.

Seriously DE why do you keep introducing new things and new mod categories but then make things that are ALL BUT MANDATORY have an obtusely low drop rate?

This is the exact same issue Railjack had.

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29 minutes ago, Aldain said:

This is the exact same issue Railjack had.

Difference being that there are more enemies in railjack so it wasn't so bad once they upped the drop rate. There is only 6 mechs that spawn in a full run. So I agree with adding mods to the syndicate shop. Less pain and headaches. Also, once you've gotten max ranking and gotten everything in the small menu, what else is there to do with all these matrices that drop?

Edited by Eklipse2k2
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I have 2 feedbacks about mech modding. First one is there is not enough capacity to mod the mechs whats to point of having 12 mod slots if we can only use like 8-9 of them even modding every single slot requires 10 forma for a vehicle too hard to farm exp for thats not a good design decision also you need to mod the archgun you are using and the exalted archgun aswell so even more forma for them for a vehicle we can't even use outside of open worlds with 0 dedicated missions. archwings has their special mission nods and kdrives have their open world races where they get a solid exp from.
And my second feedback farming the actual necramech mods are really really time consuming and hard. Some mods only drops from t3 bounty mechs with like a %1 chance to drop ?????? Like seriously ? Doing a single 1x3 vault run takes about 35-40 minutes. In which world spending 35-40 minutes to kill an enemy 3 times to get a %1 drop chance from each one of those enemies is okay. Are you guys at DE really expect us players to play the same bounty mission over and over and over again for literally hundreds of hours to get all the mods ? The drop chances really needs to be buffed or the mods should be obtainable from other sources as well and honestly its probably best to do both.

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5 minutes ago, Kuilvax said:

-snip-

I don't necessarily disagree with having limited mod capacity when it comes to the mech. I can see the benefit of specialization down the road, however since this is a new system and the mods are so limited it almost seems comical.

For the moment, I'd suggest trying to make it easy for us to acquire basic mods first through syndicate and have rare mods either as replacement rewards for void relics in vault runs(because you can go anywhere else in the star chart to farm some) or have them locked behind the secret rooms in the vault similar to Lua puzzle rooms.

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59 minutes ago, Aldain said:

^That.

Seriously DE why do you keep introducing new things and new mod categories but then make things that are ALL BUT MANDATORY have an obtusely low drop rate?

This is the exact same issue Railjack had.

Don't forget that it's a new system as well, not having these mods readily available may give people a poor impression of mechs

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12 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

Battacor-Sepulcre-Trumna-Mausolon-Cortege.  The first weapon is the genesis of the kill charging weapon.  3 Kills, 3 charges.  Apparently you copy pasted this mechanic from the Battacor into a litany of new stuff.  I cannot speak to Father's guns, but the common theme on these weapons is that you designed one gun and made minor stat adjustments along with art changes.  I'm good with a common theme, but this is the first time you've released a single concept four times.  It might have been less noticeable if you hadn't screwed up the Battacor some time ago....but two years isn't enough to forget a weapon completely.  While the Mausolon and Cortege are great and decent archguns, the painfully slow recharge of the later makes it ineffective while the former is fantastic until you've got genuinely strong enemies.  Neither of which make your mech feel like anything but a downgrade from a standard frame.

This is a very inane criticism. Each of the guns behaves extremely differently from one another in use, with the only real similarity being how you have to kill to charge up an altfire and how they all come from one faction. The closest DE comes to copy-pasting guns with minor stat adjustments in Deimos is comparing Battacor to Mausolon which both have similar altfires, and even that is a stretch because one's a weird automatic two-burst gun and the other is a full auto machine gun with either regenerating ammo (archwing/mech) or a deep ammo well (on foot w/gravimag). Seriously, complaining that a certain faction's weapons have a signature mechanic is bonkers, we might as well complain about how infested weapons are all copy-pastes of one another with different stats and art because the overwhelming majority of them use toxin damage or the products thereof (ie gas/corrosive/viral).

 

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17 minutes ago, (XB1)The Neko Otaku said:

Don't forget that it's a new system as well, not having these mods readily available may give people a poor impression of mechs

That's why I mentioned Railjack.

Without a good Bulkhead Avionic the Launch Railjack was made of paper from the first mission and that is why everyone just suggested parking it on the other side of the map and using an Amesha, and we all know how well that worked for getting people into Railjack.

The mechs also don't have any on-board healing which all but mandates the use of Vazarin and makes them explode from a stiff breeze (especially when modless).

Overall the concept is fine, but the execution of it and availability of things needed to make them viable are too rare by every stretch of imagination.

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The reflection on enemy necramechs feels a little unfair mainly cause you have no idea when its going to happen and it just...happens at utter randomness. Itd feel a lot better if the enemy mech didnt get the reflection buff or it reflected a dodgable projectile. A lot of this game tends to have near-invisible damage instances(toxic ancients for example) which can really just take the joy out of a room. 

And this reflection is most noticeable in a mech when all of a sudden you go from full health to the mech dieing due to reflection all of a sudden. And that reflection seems to have a very VERY far range as I can die shooting a mech from across a large room and still get the shots reflected to me

Edited by rawr1254
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2 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

This is a very inane criticism. Each of the guns behaves extremely differently from one another in use, with the only real similarity being how you have to kill to charge up an altfire and how they all come from one faction. The closest DE comes to copy-pasting guns with minor stat adjustments in Deimos is comparing Battacor to Mausolon which both have similar altfires, and even that is a stretch because one's a weird automatic two-burst gun and the other is a full auto machine gun with either regenerating ammo (archwing/mech) or a deep ammo well (on foot w/gravimag). Seriously, complaining that a certain faction's weapons have a signature mechanic is bonkers, we might as well complain about how infested weapons are all copy-pastes of one another with different stats and art because the overwhelming majority of them use toxin damage or the products thereof (ie gas/corrosive/viral).

 

Maybe you missed a tick.  Let me loop back around.  The point was that the unique mechanic of all four weapons was the same, copied directly from the Battacor.

 

Because the original criticism was that was incorrect, I cited that the guns are simply amalgamated around assault rifles, with a charge counter, leading to a copy of previously available weaponry.  Maybe let's give it a go one more time.

 

Mausolon - Semi accurate, high fire rate weapon by default.  Basically, a Dera with more damage and better ammo economy.  The secondary is either Opticor or Battacor, but it's a one shot with AoE blast.

Cortege - Flamethrower.  Ignis direct copy.  Secondary is a 5 instance fan of Torrid projectiles with the gas visual replaced by a light source.

Sepulcrum - Standard burst fire secondary.  Secondary is a five target variant of the existing missile firing Akarius.  

Trumna - Standard assault rifle in every respect.  Secondary is a variant of a Tonkor, and has even less control because its bounces have a mind of their own.

 

Now, what's the problem?  Well, let's set aside the fact that these aren't new or unique weapons.  Let's set aside that they're mostly slight statistical improvements (except the Mausolon, it's pretty much amazing).  Let's even set aside the fact that it's insanely more expensive to get them than any other pre-existing open world content.

With all of that set aside, it's the bulk of our new content that is being looked at, and it's all the same.  What other faction can claim that all of their gear was introduced with the same "unique" mechanic.  What other faction had a pre-release weeks in advance that literally highlighted the copy-paste?  For those out of the loop the Battacor had 3 charges, then silently upped it to 5, and recently silently decreased it back to 3.  I am bolding this because the Battacor isn't exactly a high usage item, and people seem to not understand this.  Now, I cannot.  Fortuna brought us the Battacor, Ocucor, and Galvacord; of which, only the Galvacord was a standard melee weapon.  Railjack brought us the Pennant, Quellor, and Shedu.  Shedu strips sentient adaptation, Quellor is an assault rifle with a shotgun secondary, and Pennant was our second two-handed nikana.  Before that was PoE...and it eventually brought the Quartakk and Stubba.  The Quartakk offered charged and hip fire.  The Stubba....I can't lie, it was a standard fast firing secondary.  The eventual release of the Korrudo brought us a critical based set of gauntlets.  

 

Let's be clear, we're providing feedback about stuff that is insanely expensive compared to everything else.  Insane in this case meaning nearly 3x as expensive as previous content.  Is that content worth the drastically increased price....no.  It's not a matter of my opinion, it's the simple statement that triple the price stuff is not better than anything we already have.  It sets an example for DE that we'll swallow Fallout 76 style garbage for new content, and that's detrimental.  Don't see the parallel?  Let me put this into context.  In Fallout 4 you had default clothing items.  Fallout 76 had the same engine, but after paying you could not access the content from Fallout 4.  What was required was paying additional money for access to cosmetics that already existed in Fallout 4, so you could wear them in Fallout 76.  

Would DE do this?  Well, I cannot say for certain.  What I can do is extrapolate.  We've been told Tennogen is going to come more frequently.  We've had enormous amounts of cosmetics delivered through NIghtwave.  The history of the current parent company of DE is to push for profits, and not really concern themselves with player feedback.  So based upon that swallowing what was obviously a rushed release, that is content poor, and buggy (my Trumna has 200% accuracy until I apply Heavy Calibur then it's 28.8%, I've started falling through floors again, and mech re-summons default to unmodder health) is not good for the player base.

 

Do you care to argue?  Is it unfair to highlight the cobbled together nature of everything, and call out the Railjack level multi-layered grind?  Perhaps it's better, because it isn't the Kuva Lich slot machine.  Consider me having more respect for you than you have for yourself then.  I think that selling a thing for 12.5k reputation, and hiding another 30k of cost is a joke.  I consider having to run the isolation vaults hundreds of times to have a statistical chance to get the mods is insulting.  I also consider that the necramechs bringing back a dash stamina meter is literally wiping away half a decade of progress, and repeating the failures of the k-drives without even copying their success at having the mods be purchased from the related faction.  

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So far I have been really enjoying the necramech system but here are some things I feel should be added or changed.

.Healing abilities like renewal or blessing should work on necramechs, currently the only way to heal in a necramech is to pick up health orbs which don't drop frequently enough to sustain you during a intense battle plus there should be a incentive to bring allies or specters with healing abilities along, health restores should work too.

.energy should naturally regenerate, archwings regenerate energy over time, which imo, works very well in preventing you from simply spamming abilities but does not impose a hard limit on how many abilities you can launch, I think necramechs should follow suit, I usually save all my energy for guard mode or storm shroud so I don't usually have energy for gravemines, energy restores, energy vampire and energy siphon should work too.

.crouch walking and usage in the star chart, I think you guys said you want to add necramech usability to the star chart so here's an idea, give necramechs a proper crouch walking animation and allow crouching necramechs to stay crouching while attacking or using abilities, this will allow necramechs to navigate areas that would normally be too small for them, if I'm correct, necramechs are supposed to be overpowering but slow and clumsy so having to crouch walk to enter doors would probably make sense.

.necramech defenses, on higher levels, necramechs feel a bit fragile, someone earlier posted an idea to make necramechs immune to small arms fire from the front, this makes sense cause enemy necramechs are also immune to attack from the front, but for balancing reasons, here is an idea, give 90-99% damage reduction to frontal attacks, you are still capable of being destroyed by persistent enemies but they will have a very hard time doing any meaningful damage, at the same time, you need to be careful of enemies sneaking up on you.

.stamina, I admit, necramech stamina can be a bother in missions that require you to move from place to place, how bout this, either necramechs don't use stamina for sprinting, only for charge attacks and hovering, or stamina depletes MUCH slower when sprinting and possibly recharges a bit faster.

.necramech handling items and necraweb, one of the bigger problems I have is how necramechs handle items, they can handle necraweb canisters well so hopefully they should soon be able to handle other carriable items, also imo although necraweb is fairly creative as an ability, I don't find it that great, plus there's the problem that because of it, you can't pick up items, here's an idea, when used, if there is something in the necramechs off hand, hide the item and have the necramech immediately throw a canister without placing the canister in it's hand.

.revival, I admit, not being able to revive allies while I'm in the necramech drives me crazy, if possible, please allow necramechs to revive players, pets and specters please

final notes, thank you DE for adding necramechs into the game, I hope you take some of these suggestions into account and improve this feature, necramechs are a blast to use, I hope they get even more brokenly awesome. PS, sorry for the long post

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  • The gold necramech mods need to actually drop from the necramech. Better yet - have Father sell them for standing.  I have killed over 100 mechs, with and without the mod drop chance booster, necros, on all tiers (t1/t2/t3) and have yet to see a single gold mod.  And you expect us to farm FIVE of them? yeah - no. Especially since the runs are so insanely boring, and you couldn't even bother to have a difference between Iso 1, Iso 2, Iso 3 besides one extra mech? same dialog, same missions, same slog. same waste of time. At least have us descend deeper, change the mission type a little, change the dialog (or better yet skip it). and make it actually rewarding.
  • The necramech needs enemy radar - and needs to get the benefit of enemy radar on companion from animal instinct.  We have this on AW. 
  • The necramech needs vacuum mod -and needs to get the benefit of vacuum on companion from animal instinct.  We have this on AW.  And it can be especially annoying on mech - lets say you need mech energy - so you slowly stomp around looking for orbs, and have to stand right on top to get it. But If you at any point transfer back to your warframe (say to pick something up, collect resources, deal with an enemy, fit through a small hole, go up to a height the mech cant get to) there is a good chance vacuum/fetch will suck up all energy orbs and give them to your warframe when you didn't want it to.
    • In the necramech, your pet is still vulnerable to damage unlike while in AW, and yet you don't even get the benefit of equipped mods? really?
  • Arcanes should trigger while in mech - Energize, Aegis, Fury, Strike, etc...Again - they work in AW. 
  • Energy consumption needs a look at - especially given the non-existence (see bullet 1) of streamline, and flow, and its lack of vacuum (see bullet 3), its great that they have abilities but its exceptionally rare that I can actually use one - especially its 3rd and 4th abilities due to lack of energy.   
  • There needs to be a way for the mech to go UP - especially on deimos where the terrain has so many cliffs and high ledges that its little boost jump cant get up.  You can't effectivly use it doing bounties - its too slow to keep up. and without enemy radar you are pretty hamstrung anyway and generally a drag on your teammates on a bounty.
  • Its 4ths range is pathetic for an openworld-only use case- its shorter range than Mesa. Would be fine on the procedurally generated starchart (but we can't use the mech there) but it is to short for open worlds like PoE, Orb Vallis.
  • Get rid of stamina - Its just bad, the sprint speed makes the thing tolerable not game breaking.  Or make the stamina only apply to the Jets that provide lift/headbutting dash but not sprint.
  • Give us a way to turn down the stomping volume or turn it off entirely. Not its ground slam sound, or boost of engines -but that squeaky stompy sound. Please.
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There is a small bug with Necromech exalted weapon...  Once you unlock the 4th ability that weapon starts showing up in every EoM screen.   Its gets 0 normal afinity, but shows that it gets bonus affinity, and its XP bars fills up....   but thats a lie.  You never used your necromech or that weapon so there is no way it gained anything.   But also the xp it says it gets one mission gets wiped out the next.

It being in the EoM screen is just some kind of visual bug.  

--------------------------

PS, the default gun the Necromech comes with is bad ass,  the Mousalin? "Mouse".   My Necro has gara's spectrorage, and I was leveling the Mouse in normal missions.  Felt awesome.   I especially love the Batticor charge-up style attack.  Plus it just looks damn cool.   I didnt wanna forma that gun but I think I will a few more times just because its fun to use lol.  

Wish Cortege parts weren't buried in round 3 iso vault =(

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20 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

*snip*

I'm actually gratuitously amused by the fact that you refer to the Catchmoon as more unique than the Sepulcrum when it's literally a secondary Plasmor and has been referred to as a secondary Plasmor by basically everyone since its inception. That really shows how narrow your argument is, because you only accept things that fit your opinion.

The rest of your 'argument' is basically the same thing: Saying "it's fine that you have opinions, but my view is objective fact and superior to yours". And also not reading the lengthy *on topic* feedback post I made talking about the mech mods and their grind being unfair. I don't think engaging you in conversation is remotely relevant at this point, because you're not here to have a discussion, you're here to state your perspective as fact and imply that other people just don't know any better. None of which is relevant to the topic, constructive, or anything resembling civil. So we're done here.

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There are really only two issues with Nechramechs that need addressed. (note even if you  forma one nine times there are a number of build combinations that simply will not fit at all)

First one is Nechramechs need a small amount of energy regeneration, even if it's only 1 energy every 1.5 - 2 seconds.

Second is they need more range on picking things up like built in vacuum.

That's it! Anything more would be over the top. Not even joking those two tiny changes would make them almost perfect from a balance perspective. I can't agree with anyone asking for more then what I mentioned above.

Edited by Nichivo
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14 minutes ago, FelisImpurrator said:

I'm actually gratuitously amused by the fact that you refer to the Catchmoon as more unique than the Sepulcrum when it's literally a secondary Plasmor and has been referred to as a secondary Plasmor by basically everyone since its inception. That really shows how narrow your argument is, because you only accept things that fit your opinion.

The rest of your 'argument' is basically the same thing: Saying "it's fine that you have opinions, but my view is objective fact and superior to yours". And also not reading the lengthy *on topic* feedback post I made talking about the mech mods and their grind being unfair. I don't think engaging you in conversation is remotely relevant at this point, because you're not here to have a discussion, you're here to state your perspective as fact and imply that other people just don't know any better. None of which is relevant to the topic, constructive, or anything resembling civil. So we're done here.

If you don't want to read....then why even talk?

 

Point 1, the catchmoon is an arca plasmor secondary.  It's counter to your initially posed straw man that all projectile weapons are the same, but why try to be consistent with your own straw man?  As a point of fact, the differentiation is in the in-built mechanics of the two.  Secondaries have smaller areas of effect, and more projectiles.  Primaries have a much larger area of effect, but way less shots.  It's also a secondary weapon that isn't using a unique mechanic, and the comparison was to other shotgun secondaries, but why even argue that when you can simply pretend that your initial complaint is no longer considered.

 

Point two, the on topic feedback about the weapons was regarding the Cortege and Mausolon....but apparently 2/4 items is not on topic enough.

 

Final point, your quoted lines that are relevant and let me know that you can't maintain a consistent through line:

"Wow, they copied one piece of code, so they're the same weapon!

Also, that whole wall about how they're all just copies of other weapons is completely wrong (you didn't even correctly identify the Cortege as a Larkspur with higher stats but a different AoE mechanic, or the Mausolon as a single Decurion with higher stats and an explosive alt-fire, and saying the Sepulcrum's alt-fire is just Akarius is grasping at straws),..."

-Admission of other weapons that things are borrowed from that you think are more accurate....but somehow this is all good.  The double standard deepens, as it's OK to copy code as long as you agree on the source...even if the nuance of the true origin is lost.  Moreover, even if you misquote the mechanics to demonstrate that you don't understand that the source may be other weapon types rather than a worse copy of things already copied from other sources (Larkspur = Amprex, Cortege = Ignis).

"...Honestly, I've found this to be overall the most relaxed grind of any landscape in the game (including Necramech syndicate) save for a few spots they've largely started patching out, so when they literally slash the prices on Son tokens into the ground and cut rank-up tokens to 1 within a week and have stated they're still looking at the economy based on feedback,..."

-Ironic that the feedback about the weapons with a slight diversion should be off topic and you can attempt to high-road.  At the same time, a complete diversion about the economy of Son tokens is all peachy.  If you're going to try and call somebody else out for a diversion maybe make sure you're not guilty.

"..Honestly, I've found this to be overall the most relaxed grind of any landscape in the game (including Necramech syndicate) save for a few spots they've largely started patching out,..."

-So on the one hand it's fine.  On the other hand the economy needs fixed.  It's both a relaxed grind, and one that needs to be altered.  This isn't politics, it's either a grind that is broken or not.  Straddling both lines isn't a nuanced view, it's being incapable of making a decision.  There is argument about how to fix it, and about how broken it is.  That's a point of fine contention that is stupid to quibble over.  What is not up for debate is a 0.201% drop chance from an enemy which spawns 3 times in 40 minutes.  For the record, that means 50% of the player base will have the mod after 115 isolation vault raids.  At 40 minutes a pop it's 76 hours 40 minutes of game time.  If that is an acceptable grind then please stop talking and just play.  There's literally nothing we can come to an agreement on when it's almost two weeks of a job to have a 50% chance to get the content.

BUT HEY, YOU CAN ALWAYS BUY A MOD DROP CHANCE BOOSTER!

 

This brings us full circle.  Perhaps you'd like to argue further.  Maybe the math is off, and maybe quoting you is unfair because I'm taking snippets with context but not enough context.  Fine.  I'm not wasting two weeks of my life not getting paid, so that I can be happy with DE replacing the grind never...  Yes, how did that Eidolon "fix" for arcanes work out?  Are we able to buy arcanes at will for grind, or is it still 1400+ eidolons for people to have a 50% chance at getting the highest tier arcanes to drop 21 times?

 

If any of that is unfair....maybe PoE is scheduled for another rework.  Maybe you just love Scarlet Spear and the grind there is just peachy.  I don't really have anything to add here other than wishing that DE will fix horrible drop rates for things is pretty backwards.  It took 4+ years for the stalker acolyte mods to be anything but an event.  Arcanes were extended from 10 to max to 21 (while limiting them to one per frame).   Simaris pricing took 3 years and the Helminth system to halve the cost of things. 

Net message; being on the fence about it being broken, but not bad, is detrimental.  If DE thinks things are fine they never even consider working on them.  It's how two weeks in the only major update here is that mechs on the open world no longer drop things upon death (a net loss in ease of acquiring mods and parts).  The rest of our stuff is raw bug fixing...and it's always justified that this is a game perpetually in beta.  Well, 4+ years ago they fixed falling through the level....and the 07 update has brought it back.  Maybe, just maybe, instead of being OK with this it's time to demand that the next update doesn't have these same issues.  Or perhaps PoE 4.0 will just be more of the same.  Maybe it'll introduce the flying necramechs, that are even less sturdy than the current ones (cue Ropalolyst memories).

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I'd just like to take a while to give my standpoint on the new enemy necramechs introduced with deimos, first of all, great visual design, such a cool god damn concept and I love it, however there is one glaring issue that me and pretty much everyone I've talked to have with the enemy mechs.

1) Biggest offender - Storm Shroud, I'd love to see the storm shroud to have a visual cue of some sort that it is currently absorbing damage to discourage players from attacking it, as currently it is incredibly unclear when they are in their absorbing state, and when their shield has finishes charging and how much shield they actually have left, I'd recommend showing the shield as an overshield on the health-bar.

Secondly it would be a lot better for the game if the enemy necramechs had a short cooldown between their uses of storm shroud as currently their AI allows them to endlessly stay in shroud if your RNG isn't great that day.

 

2) There seems to be a bug where the necramech stops the player from using their void dash, or going back into their warframe - this is incredibly frustrating and ruins openings to attack the necramech a lot of times.

TLDR: The new isolation vaults are a lot of fun but the enemy mechs could really use a visual indicator for their shield charging and shield level as well as a cooldown for their storm shroud to allow the players to be rewarded for correctly executing their shield mechanic, the mechs slowing down the operator form needs fixing as it locks you in operator mode for about 5 seconds right now

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As others have said, the Necramech should at least have all the benefits that Archwings get, like being able to work with Arcanes, and especially more so benefit from companion vacuum and Animal Instinct since unlike in Archwing where your pet disappears, in the Necramech they actually stay by your side and do need maintenance when they get hurt or go down.

 

For the mods, at the moment they are too rare for how slow it is possible to grind for them, and they should be either added to Loid, or at least have either a special guaranteed mod crate in the Iso Vaults or a chance to drop from the regular Iso Vault crates since after a certain point the actual vaults themselves are just useless and people just skip the first two to make runs go faster and only do the third one for the damaged weapon part and not the vault itself.

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