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Heart of Deimos: Necramech Feedback Megathread


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7 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

I don't agree that mech = warframe. Moreover, stamina is used for what is very similar to Gauss 1, but Gauss spends energy on it. Similarly, all warframes do not have an infinite aimglide, which is very similar.

And I don't agree here either, because if you remove all the mods, your warframe and weapons won't work well either. First, I want to see how mods will affect this and if it's bad, I'll agree with you.

 

I did say (note no mods and only from the quest).....

Spoiler

we're also assuming that 'snake' wasn't an already upgraded model, it was the 'son's' custom necramech after all and had been used in battle in the past.

 

Edited by LSG501
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So I rule at play time, but the grineer that I save during bounties also rule at play time apparently.  I saved them in the last bounty I ran, started another while outside and they're still chilling out here.  That's great, except for the fact that they're chilling near the cauldron that I need to kill stuff near and they're wiping the floor with everything before it can get near the cauldron.  This is hampering my ability to rule at playtime.

Also, I'm randomly unable to void dash while in the open world.  Not the static-on-the-screen can't use abilities, just flat out can't void dash.  Operator jumps and just sort of slowly floats down.

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Just finished the Necramech quest in HoD and man, that boss fight is not fun at all.  The lead up tutorial is rather bare-bones and sometimes my abilities worked, sometimes not.  As for the boss fight itself, you have an enemy that only takes damage to arms apparently but does full damage to you with no indication of what you should be doing.  Good luck if you are using a controller, I had to switch over to KBM to to deal with it.

I don't know what it is with boss design but it seems with each one that gets released, I have to try and figure out if it is something I'm doing wrong, is it a mechanic that isn't telegraphed in any way, or is it a bug (hello ropalyst).

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I loved everything about the Mechs.

Until the Boss fight at the end, Snake vs the other Mech. Didn't have 4th ability unlocked, and barely understood what the other 3 did (does 1 actually do damage or is some kind of aoe effect? Does it detonate on contact or do I control it?). Fighting the mech suddenly felt like trying to out shoot an aimbot whilst wearing lead shoes, but I was trying. Then my doggo fell down, so I tried to revive Mister Snuggles only to die from the Boss because you cant actually interact and revive him.

And when I respawn, all the energy I used is gone. Thankfully the enemy health doesn't refill, but now i can't use any of the fun abilities and I'm stuck just walking in circles holding the fire button. Using the hover ability on a controller requires more fingers than I have  as you have to keep firing and moving. I'm torn whether I'd rather have everything reset because at least then I'd get to experiment with abilities. I did eventually work out i could semi stun lock the Boss using the boost headbutt (but only from a sprint, normal didn't work) after a number of deaths from failed attempts, like using melee. But by that point the they were almost dead anyway.

Basically, the boss fight highlighted all the control issues, like unintuitive dashing as its not the same as a warframe or odd aiming behaviour of abilities, which took a lot of the fun out it. Just putting a description of the abilities and controls in the menu would have been enough, as I looked but it only showed me my warframes abilities.

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if mausolon and cortege can be used as archguns, can the necramechs be, equipped with other archguns?

if so, i don't know yet if it can

otherwise, shouldn't it be able to equip other archguns?

 

EDIT: before i forgot to add, also allow the necramechs to use archmelees, albeit necramechs originally fitted woth archguns yes?

Edited by ._.-._.
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The quest mech was a bit anti-climatic.  I'm going from a warframe who can do hundreds of thousands of damage and tank like a beast to a soft squishy mech with a weak gun.  My Warframe would have thrashed the necromech with 1 / 1000th of the effort in a normal fight.

I don't like their appearance style, but that's preference.  I think they do look nice overall if you're into the ugly baby thing.

I prefer not to play open world, so they seem like a gimmick to me.  If I could use them on Pluto, then I would totally get one to stomp around with.

The thing is with mechs, at least from my experience with them, is that they should be very customizable.  Giving us 4 new abilities and different physics is just creating another warframe.  To be real mech, the abilities in the 1 2 3 4 slot should be customizable with several options like missiles, mines, lasers, autoguns, artillery and whatnot.  This definitely missing, and the necromech just fills the role of a gimmick Warframe I got to play once and will likely never play again - and nor do I want to because I'm not interested in what it has to offer with it's stock configuration.

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The sound design is fabulous. The visual design is growing on me, as most of Warframe's style did. The general feel is very mechanized and clunky compared to the fluidity of our warframes, which was a nice change of pace.

On the other hand, the Snake vs. Mech fight was the single worst boss fight I've ever experienced in a video game. There was absolutely no indication of what to do, I felt completely powerless, unable to deal any damage, unable to use abilities, and unable to understand why anything was or was not happening. Even when a random bullet did a pinprick of damage, the visual effects were so blinding I couldn't tell what had worked. Cycling through everything Snake could do (when it COULD do anything) and finding only ONE thing (headbutt charge) to open the boss up to damage for half a second while it could just melt me with impunity had me ready to uninstall. And while having the boss's health stay damaged when I died did mean I wasn't stuck on it forever, it reeked of pity, and really messed with what little verisimilitude respawning allows. A challenge that relies on the player not understanding what to do is not a challenge, it is an exercise in frustration. This experience was so bad, it has made me completely uninterested in obtaining my own necramech.

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7 hours ago, LSG501 said:

we're also assuming that 'snake' wasn't an already upgraded model, it was the 'son's' custom necramech after all and had been used in battle in the past.

I think that this thing has no mods, but it has a scaling depending on the lvl of enemies, like a roaming mech in OW. But in the quest, the enemies were level 17. However, take a look at the drawing of the flamethrower. There are really good characteristics. 90 fire damage, 12 rate of fire, 40% status and 20% crit at x2.3 crit multiplier. It's not bad.

I can't say anything about abilities, because we really didn't see their characteristics.

On the other hand, I think people start having strange feelings when they leave their OP warframe with OP weapons and are given something that requires control and resource management. I think it's bad when people are used to when enemies die if you look in their direction. I think that the first experience is spoiled by the power of the warframe, and not by bad mech mechanics.

Edited by selig_fay
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Are nercromechs usable in the starchart? If not pls do. We need more than pets and weapons to bring to the starchart. Necromechs would be a truly great addition if we can use them in multiple places. Not just open-world only like k-drives. I imagine it would be difficult to change the entire map to fit the gameplay of a necromech. So I propose using something like the arch-gun charge. That or a slight change to how it functions, for-example: Jump boost is a actual hover or the dash can have you fly through the open Jupiter tile-set areas like a Warhammer Superman. For doorways you could give the necromech the ability to crouch or a animation to get through them which would really make you feel like a heavy, giant, walking turret.      

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On 2020-08-21 at 11:50 AM, [DE]Bear said:

From the Necramechs themselves to their weapons, powers, and stats,

This time, it's about the hostile Necramechs. They're worse than Tusk Thumpers.

  1. Why are they immune to damage but their arms and their back? They turn on a dime, making it very difficult to ambush them on solo. Furthermore, they can pick their arms immediately after they got disarmed unlike Sentients.
  2. Necraweb (1st Ability) needs its visual range more clear. Its slow range is larger than one might expect.
  3. Storm Shroud (2nd Ability): The two problems with it is how the ability can be recasted near instantly upon depleting the original Shroud and damage reflection. It's guaranteed to use it when the mech is fully disarmed, and it will use it again soon after the the ability ends. The damage reflection is near impossible to avoid unless you use certain abilities or the Operator to chip away the Shroud. Make the hostile Necramech Storm Shroud run on a duration with a cooldown of 15 seconds similar to the Aerolyst.
  4. Gravemines (3rd Ability): The explosion radius is deceivingly dangerous. You can't try to flank the Necramech due to its turn speed and the large AoE of the grenades.
  5. Charge Attack: Needs a better rewind animation to tell players that the mech is charging.

Necramechs suffer from the artificial difficulty of small weak spots and damage immunity. They should be made like Noxes, not a worse and more punishing version of Tusk Thumpers.

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13 minutes ago, Duality52 said:

Why are they immune to damage but their arms and their back? They turn on a dime, making it very difficult to ambush them on solo. Furthermore, they can pick their arms immediately after they got disarmed unlike Sentients.

I think this is why we got molt and decoy. Try them. It's really very easy when it's not targeting you. 

I think this is one of the enemy testing systems that counteracts AOE weapons and abilities.

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Haven't built my own yet, but mech in quest felt too slow and sluggish. I understand that mechs are supposed to feel bulky and stompy but necramechs are just slightly above human size yet their sluggishness is on par with Mechwarrior 100-tonners. And let's not forget that this is Warframe, a game where slow is never an option. We have a pretty big crewship which mobility is on par with fighters.

Mecramechs need smoother transition between moves without locking you into animations and spending precious seconds on recovery, faster charge, some extra vertical mobility.

Edited by Kefirno
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1 hour ago, Kefirno said:

And let's not forget that this is Warframe, a game where slow is never an option. We have a pretty big crewship which mobility is on par with fighters.

Titanfall is not a slow game either. I don't mind if the mech gets a bigger size, but I am against increasing their mobility. As I said above, I don't want it to look like a plastic Diva mech. Heavy equipment should be heavy, and speed is also a measure of weight.

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One thing I wanna mention about it: you guys put the hover on hold jump in the air, which is just CRUEL to controller user. Why not ake it have the same controls of a Warframe's aim glide?

For the rest, really not much to say, I love them. 

I just hope for them to have a deeper melee system like frames do in the future.

 

Unrelated: I quickly scrolled the thread and saw a comment about not having the option to perform a "dashed sprint": it's literally in the tutorial...

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7 minutes ago, (PS4)DidacoJack said:

Unrelated: I quickly scrolled the thread and saw a comment about not having the option to perform a "dashed sprint": it's literally in the tutorial...

This is the evade button for the warframe. I don't know how it is on the controller, but by default it is double shift for PC.

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you had this problem.

Edited by selig_fay
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4 hours ago, ._.-._. said:

if mausolon and cortege can be used as archguns

They can? Big if true. Seriously, some new Archguns are 10x more interesting than the mech itself, I loved the Mausolon during the quest (except for its horrible recharge delay) and if I can use that in Archwing and with a Gravimag, that would be awesome.

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Some observations, etc. after building one and using it for a few minutes

Emissive energy color doesn't seem to do anything, all glowing parts just use energy color.

It would be nice to have some more coloration choices for necramechs (like thruster lights being seperate from other energy color bits)

The Mech has no aura slot but is affected by the warframes aura and I hope that is intended.

The equipped archgun has an ammo system like in the AW gamemode but regen seems to be way faster with bigger mag sizes. Feels too slow on larkspur for example. Would probably be a crawl on grattler.

There is no natural health regen and unless there's a mod for that that I just don't have yet I guess the aura will have to do.

I've been using it on deimos a bit but now that I have gone into the necralisk and back out on deimos its level seems to have reset.

The dash has a less strong case of Zephyrs tail wind where if you ram into a wall you'll have to wait for the animation to end so its not that good "indoors"(isolation vault, caves, etc.)

I feel like it needs a little more oomph or something like that but I haven't seen all abilities yet so I might revisit this when I leveled it up a bit more.

Also the mech doesn't seem to have a map marker when you leave it like the kdrive has.

Edited by Icpmcp
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So Snake was cool, I felt beefy in that bad boy, abilities took a little to figure out how to maximise but when I did I felt like stuff died with extreme prejudice! 

Melee was indeed slow but as for Snake.. We were punching things and I loved the chain melee follow up with smacking infested with its huge gun! 

Movement around Deimos was satisfying and it's sounds were on point. 

I am grinding for my own Necramech but I can already see few options for doing so, it definitely needs more options for it to build as uniquely tenno instead of Orokin. If it uses Arch Melee then I hope we get a gravimag system for our melee weapons because I love how awesome they look in Archwing... Using them in Archwing though doesn't feel great, but on my Necramech I can see it's potential! 

Great job so far with Heart of Deimos! 

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Not alot of complaints about being a necramech but moreso fighting them, however

 

Shorten the "stumble" animations when recovering from any mobility based action in necramechs, even a second is crucial in a game as fast as warframe

1 should have an indicator and functioning hitboxes

2 should properly indicate either it's reflect range or basically anything at all

3 is fine, maybe a damage/range buff

The gun is clunky sometimes, the UI needs some trimming

Also, stamina? Why? And why this bad? Wasn't the entire stamina system removed because it limits mobility, I understand this is a mech but atleast make it tolerable

 

Now, for the actual complaints, fighting them.

Aside from them being a bug ridden mess that glitches out itself, enemies around it, your frame and your operator all at once by EXISTING, softlocking you in certain cases and forcing mission resets in most

 

The mines deal too much damage to warframe specifically, thousands is too high against a player, ALOT of enemies have this issue in deimos, for example the gas procs, but necramechs are a specific niche of Oof

Necraweb hitboxes, implying they even exist, the damn thing could be yeeted to venus and still slow my frame, it could be absorbed by grendel and still affect someone in the plains

But the worst offender of all is the #*!%ing shield, I'm not even gonna try to sugarcoat it, it's a joke, a disaster, the single worst choice to give any enemy in the game.

It gives them iron skin, meaning your friendly squadmate chroma w!ith an opticor can completely #*!% you for the next 5 minutes by timing a shot wrong

It reflects damage in a massive 25M radius, WHY? Is this necessary? Is it fun being smacked in the face by your own minmaxed weaponry and instantly die because of it?

It has no duration and they can regen limbs instantly after casting the shield, or just over the entire duration when aforementioned chroma decides your next 10 minutes are spent fighting a rhino on steroids

But the creaming on the buffet of bullS#&$ is the fact it has no cooldown. The moment it pops they can just recast it. I understand this is how rhino functions aswell and this isn't an excuse to nerf an ability that barely scales into the lategame anyway but for the love of god enemies with invuln abilities or phases NEED COOLDOWNS, I don't like RNG forcing me to spend an additional 15 minutes when the necramech decides 2 is the best ability in the game.

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27 minutes ago, MomoButt said:

Also, stamina? Why? And why this bad? Wasn't the entire stamina system removed because it limits mobility, I understand this is a mech but atleast make it tolerable

Stamina was removed only because the damage of opponents was so high and stamina could not cope with it when blocking. It was a lazy withdrawal and I believe stamina should return at least for a conclave. Even so, stamina recovers very quickly, which effectively limits you only from abuse. 

I think this is not a problem when stamina replenishes at 100 per second and bulletgump costs 90.

But if you've held aimglide for too long, then your stamina will start to limit you. Or Rhino charge costs stamina and you used it too much, so you don't have enough for bulletjump and you have to wait 1 seconds.

Edited by selig_fay
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15 minutes ago, selig_fay said:

Stamina was removed only because the damage of opponents was so high and stamina could not cope with it when blocking. It was a lazy withdrawal and I believe stamina should return at least for a conclave. Even so, stamina recovers very quickly, which effectively limits you only from abuse. 

I think this is not a problem when stamina replenishes at 100 per second and bulletgump costs 90.

The return of stamina is the day DE gets slaughtered in the forums and by every content creator alive, limiting the player in warframe is a terrible thing to do, it's a power fantasy, we should have as much freedom in combat as possible as we always have had, conclave sure but nobody even remembers conclave anyway so I don't see a point.

Mechs should have it, I don't want it gone, I just want it tollerable, it drains too quick and regens too slow, fix either one and done

 

On the sidepoint THE NECRAMECH SAGA OF BAD CONTINUES

Just tested, ash's invis works fine, Loki however gets the shaft and can't go invisible, even attempting it locks abilities entirely and forces a cooldown on 2

W H Y?

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After spending past 3 hours doing isolation rooms i can say about nekramech-encounters:
using the Operator in the range of a Nekramech sometimes punishes you, disables all your active abilities and disables your Void-Dash(never seen before) and replaces it with Power-jump. If your unlucky this state can be active for the rest of the mission so no Vazarin-Heal or Zenurik-Energy for you.

that when you dont kill the Nekramechs in their first phase(until they use the reflector shield for the first time) the fight can extend to about 40 mins until your able to kill them.The massive abuse of their reflectorshield turns this encounter more in a hide and run until they are invulnerable game.
Oh you didnt attack him in those 4 seconds of vulnerability well guess you have to wait 3 minutes till you can do smth again till then just run but dont just go afk or you will miss the next five seconds of vulnerability.

Edit:just found out you can disable the invulnerability when hitting his weakspots but if you miss and his shield is active -> dmg-reflection

Edited by _Vasur_
realised i missed a mechanic
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3 minutes ago, MomoButt said:

The return of stamina is the day DE gets slaughtered in the forums and by every content creator alive, limiting the player in warframe is a terrible thing to do, it's a power fantasy, we should have as much freedom in combat as possible as we always have had, conclave sure but nobody even remembers conclave anyway so I don't see a point.

I proceed from the position that stamina may appear, but you can ignore it by playing by the current rules (well, that is, the main things will be almost free), but some abilities for stamina or unique mod properties that drain stamina more, but are beneficial for gameplay. Some frames could move away from the concept of "energy is our everything".

8 minutes ago, MomoButt said:

Mechs should have it, I don't want it gone, I just want it tollerable, it drains too quick and regens too slow, fix either one and done

Well, it seemed to me that it was a fairly quick regeneration. It might be worth making a bigger one. On the other hand, maybe there are stamina mods and mech has 12 mod slots, which surprised me.

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