Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[Zzz-Somnus-zzZ]

why can't I have 2 subsumed abilities on the same warframe config?

[Laestic]

On Helminth cost

(from Wiki at time of writing : https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Helminth) we have these categories (Oxides, Calx... Bile) and ressources are grouped by these categories. 

IMHO, the main problem is twofold : first, some categories contains few different ressources while some contains a wider variety, and second, ressources rarities between categories don't weight the same.

Ressource Breakdown

Categories	# ressources	# commons	# unco,	# rares	Sources
Oxydes	8	5	1	3	RJ (1), widespread (7)
Calx	9				RJ (4), PoE (2), Jupiter (1), Cambion (1), widespread (1)
Biotics	18				Scan (11), Cambion (2), Orbis (3), PoE (2)
Synthetics	10				RJ (3), widespread (7)
Pheromones	11				Infested/Derelicts (6), RJ (3), widespread (2)
Bile	9				Void (1), Lua (1), Orbis (2), RJ (3), widespread (2)

I didn't split rarities per categories beyond Oxydes because it's not as straightforward as I thought first and, arguably, quite subjective after all. But, it is certain we can split them per sources and how those sources are harvested : containers/deposits, enemy drops, event or mission rewards, scans.

For clarification :
RJ - railjack only (spare me Eximus looting, even if systematic : think quantities)
Scan - requires specific action + consummable to collect
Widespread - found at least on several locations accross the starmap
Rest is selft-explanatory I suppose

Sources analysis

Oxydes
Contains the most common and widspread ressources, easily harvestable, available for a long time and nearly from anywhere, at the exception of Tellure and Carbides. Still, the most balanced category.

Calx
Apart of rubedo, contains many ressources from specific locations, some from still recent content (railjack). Not balanced.

Biotics
Contains ressources from either open worlds or from scanning flora. Apart from manual scanning, seems balanced.

Synthetics
Offers option to pick from a good mix of common and rare ressources from different sources, even if 3 from railjack only make a bit at odd.

Pheromones
Specific sources in 3 from RJ-only and 6 from juggernaut and infested drops make this category not well-balanced, particularly considering the weight of each ressource as we'll see below.

Bile
No ressources from in this category are available in satisfying quantity regarding the cost of their "lump", even the well-spread ressources, cryotics and morphics,. The weight of each ressource aggravate this issue. 

Silly reasoning

Now, if you agree with the above breakdown, let's make some hypotheses and comparisons.

Assuming each category (Sentient Appetite excepted obviously) has equal or near-equal importance in the cost distribution of Subsuming and Infusing (which i didn't run) ;

Assuming a "veteran" player may have accumulated common and long-available ressources in the million (eg, i personnaly have 4M salvage), less common but still long-available ressource in the tens of thousands and the others in the hundreds at most ;

do we seriously take for granted that 15k Alloy Plate for Oxydes weight the same as 15k Copernics for Bile ? Than 6k Rubedo is the same as 2k Bracoid ? Than 3k Cryotics are just worth 1/4 Polymers ? We could continue on and on, pairing ressources of apparently equal value within each category, then accross categories. Pointless, really ?

Conclusion

Reformulating from above : if able, would you gladly trade 3k Cryotics (you) for my 12k Polymer ? 2k Bracoid from your recent railjack runs for my 6K Rubedo ? I would accept anytime.

TL/DR : current ressources dispatch among categories is unbalanced, current cost doesn't take weight truely into account (availability, value, harvest method...) 

 

[EXC4L1BUR-PR1ME]

14 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You guys want me to spend a week or two, feed the Helminth the frames I built and the vast majority of my resources, for nerfed versions of abilities?

I love Heart of Deimos, but you guys really dropped the ball with the Helminth. It had potential, it was exciting. But now it’s just another wasted idea on the pile.

Lunaro, Pvp, Railjack, Helminth.

What is the point of putting the hard work in if you’re going to sabotage your own ideas?

Do what you used to, listen to your playerbase. Please.

Edit;

I will grind for new content, dangle a shiny in front of me and I will go ham unlocking it. But the Helminth system isn’t new content. It’s abilities I’ve been using for years. You can’t expect this much effort for recycled content.

PS, did you forget that clans exist?

The Helminth system has crippled any new clan from starting up, how can you expect players to donate resources when they need millions for their Helminth?

All of this is spot on.

[crow000]

The amount of Railjack material required for the Helminth Chrysalis system appears to be an order of magnitude higher.
I'm playing Railjack to the extent that I've raised all of my intrinstic values to 10, except for command, and this amount of material is instantly depleted.

Also, the bile requirement in feeding is unfairly concentrated in materials that are hard to collect.
I'd like to see the required amount eased, or the materials available in the Cambion Drift be targeted for feeding.

[RogueVoxel]

You were worried that the helminth system would become too meta focused yet you decided to make it so expensive players will only have the chance to pick 2 or 3 abilities so now players will only go for the meta abilities

[shadoom13]

I've left my feedback in separate thread before I've noticed there's special thread here, so I'm copypasting myself down there

I haven't read every feedback above, so most likely I will not address any new problems, compliments or suggestions

Interface part: 

I would like to see a "confirm choice" or warning window upon choosing configuration slot that already has another transfered ability. For now there's no warning when transfering an ability into already occupied slot.

Also it would be helpful to see timer of sorts on recently fed resources recovering their efficiency.

Speaking of resources off the topic, railjack resources are underpriced for helminth. I can't believe 20.000 nanospores are equal 15.000 pastrels.

Here I've seen Laestic breaking it down.

Options part:

We're being offered to replace 1 ability in each warframe slot. But I can not transfer one ability in two different slots if I am replacing two different abilities. Breaking down in an example:

I want to transfer rhino's roar for my Oberon, replacing smite for regular build and reckoning for eidolon build. I intend to transfer same ability into two slots. However For each slot I want different ability to be replaced, and Helminth doesn't let me choose different abilities to be replaced.

While choosing transfering I'm only offered with 1 ability slot to replace, and after transfering I'm not offered to transfer that same ability again, I can only transfer different ability or forget said "roar"

So far I didn't have any other issues with Helminth, absolutely love new build depths. 

[Circle_of_Psi]

2 hours ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

DE have already said that they are not changing anything (to no ones surprise) yet will and I Quote "We. Will. Still. Monitor. As. Time. Goes. On"  

 

AKA: Lol, No.

 

 

[DeeDeetheSpy]

Marked for Death doesn't work on Ziplines. It would be VERY useful it was able to.

There is actually several abilities that don't work while on Ziplines. Highly annoyed because Ivara is my girl.

Also Navigator + Air blast has a weird interaction in that it toggles off Navigator and I can't navigate it.

[KlaussKlauss]

7 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if costs are too high how have people got to lvl6-10 helminth already? 

If Jeff Bezos has billions of dollars why are children starving in Africa?

If Aristotle could use logic more then 2000 years ago why can't you? 

6 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

why don't you have thousands of sentient materials then as well? like the awesome powerleveling guys?

See above.

I saw that polemic posts tend to be deleted (including mine), however your posts that add absolutely nothing to the discussion aren't. What is this "lower than absurd resource quantity"-shaming? It's a game and people have lives. That's why they don't have the resources. Maybe DE will change, maybe they don't. Maybe players who ask for that change will continue to play the game, maybe they won't. 

Actually I am getting tired of this. In 2-3 years max your will be playing with all those millions of resources all alone. No host migration, props to you, you now have all the resources!

[Borg1611]

We really don't need to see randoms like some dude with 250k Cryotic making the laughable assertion that 3k per turn in is reasonable. 

Simply look at the what it takes to get 3k Cryotic. Thirty rounds of excavation for ONE turn in of ONE category. 

Then think for a few seconds about the number of Warframes there are to subsume + the fact that currently you have to re-pay a cost every time you infuse an ability even into a frame that you had previously infused into. The future ongoing cost of infusions is really the biggest factor people need to think about, not just subsuming each frame once. 

Then think about the fact that you advertised this as some interesting system to play around with numerous possible combinations. Then realize that the laughably insane grind time involved in actually playing around with numerous combinations on multiple frames over time with multiple infusions per frame just isn't reasonable at all. Especially given how weak many of the abilities are. 

People simply are not going to bother playing around with it that much if the costs are that prohibitive. They'll just take a few meta combinations that some youtuber tried out so they didn't have to waste their own resources trying anything themselves and leave it there to rot. The costs as they are actively discourage any significant experimentation. 

[SSI_Seraph]

Bile variety and number balance is just straight up bad.

The infusion costs also don't allow for experimentation at all. I'm more than fine with the high entry prices when subsuming but swapping abilities around should be more flexible if you want any build variety. Even if I do have enough resources, I just can't bring myself to dump several rounds of exav just to test some build that I might want to swap out. 

All this encourages is subsuming the best abilities, putting them your favourite frames and forget this thing exists.

On a side note, I get that you want to future proof railjack resources but that thing isn't really that popular or repayable to accumulate the kind of numbers you're asking for.

Nerfs on this system would also absolutely drive people away. It's a giant time and resource sink with no guarantee you're not just gonna come one day and announce you're adjusting "the meta" (that you actively participate in creating with the costs adn the initial ability roster) and make you have to reinfuse on a large number of frames again.  why even bother at that point. Ditching a weapon is one thing but readjusting builds and reinfusing on a large number of frames is another. We'll see what's popular and nerf it for "variety" doesn't work here (if also doesn't work for rivens but that's another can of worms). If you want more of that buff the non-options and lower the infusion costs to something less punishing.

[mikakor]

you dropped the ball hard on ressources for bile. there needs to be MUCH more usable ressources. i got many, MANY gems or fish aprts from other places that would no problem work in. also, for the rarity of these, the numbers should be much lower.

second, you can't ALWAYS change your abilities. the fact that you need to give up ressources everytime to change abilities will simply make it so that everyone takes what they want the most, and forget about all the rest. why are you always limiting yourself so hard? all it does is risking another of your uncalled for ( and also, deeply uneducated ) nerf because "muh popularity, must be varied", except that it won't change anything but to make the whole system forgotten. look at the ressource cost of a few categories, and ESPECIALLY railjack ones.

[schilds]

Subsumed/infused Reave shows 40% health drain. I believe that's the amount drained from enthralled enemies. For other frames (who obviously can't enthrall enemies) it should show 8%.

[Astra0001]

let us move the helminth flowers

[-Loko-]

23 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Dude... you don't seem to understand that people have favorite frames that won't be primed for literally years...

Your response is callous and unreasonable.

While his response might've been a little too harsh, your reasoning is just...

If you like a warframe to such extent that you're using an umbral forma on it, then do NOT subsume it? If you don't want to farm it again, you won't be able to play it until it gets primed either way. Like for real, dude...

[NightmareT12]

There is something very important I have noticed: Can you guys please add in the Info tooltip of Helminth that over time (whether playing missions or waiting IRL time) the desires of Helminth change? I remember that when Fresnels were craved (only resource in green) I started feeding other stuff in that category even if it was in red because I couldn't give him that, and noticed this isn't mentioned anywhere upon double checking as I suspected.

This is very important information, and lacking it can undeniably lure players towards doing stuff they can possibly regret. I know you guys like to be fair, so please do that so no one else gets misguided into thinking something that it's not.

[Ace-Bounty-Hunter]

On 2020-09-01 at 12:49 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

Dude... you don't seem to understand that people have favorite frames that won't be primed for literally years...

Your response is callous and unreasonable.

You willingly slapped your Nidus with the Umbral Formas in spite of knowing how rare they are currently. I have no sympathy because you are solely responsible for your current predicament.

Besides. Why are you even considering feeding your Umbra forma'd Nidus to Helminth anyway? Just go farm/build another one. 

[FiveN9ne]

Having to pay to infuse each time is a big turn off. I pay to get roar on a frame, then i change it to something else, then if i want roar back boom gotta pay again. This is beyond ridiculous and does not at all encourage "creativity and testing". It would be cheaper to just buy the 3 extra config slots and use 6 abilities on that frame and swap them around. Determining which ability you want is the big issue. Like others have said, everyone will just find a meta combination that someone had already tried out and stick to it. Other than this and some resource rebalancing i don't have a problem with the system. 

IF i pay to infuse an ability on a frame, i want to have that ability PERMANENTLY at the disposal of that frame. I don't want to have to pay for the same thing i had paid for again.

[Daiwulf]

- When rearranging mod Configs from a frame with an infused ability, the config will change, but the infused abilities will stay in the same spot. Please make it so when you swap config A with config B, the infused ability in A also swaps with the infused ability in B, or allow us to rearrange abilities from configs at no cost.

- Railjack resource costs for feeding are too high. Cut their costs by 1/100th for them to be remotely viable

- When a frame is finished subsuming, its body will still stay in the wall and vanishes only when you susbsume the next one/leave the orbiter. I think that when the timer hits 0, the body should quickly fully merge into the wall and the tentacles that were holding it open for the next one.

- The liked/disliked foods should change every 6 hours, on top of current instant like/dislike system, so that we aren't forced to feed it with a very expensive resource we don't have: every 6 hours, all disliked foods become neutral, and all neutral foods become liked.

- Platinum cost for rushing should scale with the remaining time: from current 50p, make it reduce 2p each hour.

- Costs for infusing abilities are too high to allow us to test them, so we need to rely on throrycrafting or wait until a youtuber puts a video explaining all the meta synergies so we don't waste resources. Suggestion: take the current costs and make it scaled with how many configs you want to put the ability: only 1 config = 1/3 of the cost; 2 configs = 2/3 of the cost; 3 configs = current cost; 4+ configs = either 4/3 of current costs or make it so the current cost is applied to anything greater than 3 configs. This way we can install an ability in only 1 config to allow testing.

- Alternative to previous topic: instead of reducing infusion costs, allow us to freely swap subsumed abilities while in the simulacrum so we can test there and decide which one we will put in the frame. While allowing ALL subsumable abilities would be the best for testing so we could even choose which frame we would feed the Helminth, I think that would be too much, so keeping it only for subsumed abilities would be a fair deal.

[(NSW)Joewoof]

It would be nice if the Railjack resource situation is reversed. Instead of being more expensive than standard resources, it should instead be easier. A stronger incentive to do Railjack is always welcome, in my opinion.

[Gelkor]

Really love the concept of energy munitions, but it's duration is painfully low, and doesn't scale with strength or any other stat really. 

[Lemonfennec]

I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but is it possible to get some sort of indicator somewhere to tell us which frames we have already subsumed? It might be helpful for planning out what suits to farm/build.

[(XBOX)DropTheMike17]

Some initial thoughts after playing around with the system for a few days:

• The resource costs for feeding railjack resources are way too high and not consistent with other things.
• I infused Elemental Ward on my Rhino to play around with the cold armor buff, but the UI indicates I’m getting a base 150 armor increase, rather than a base 150% armor increase (I expected base 412.5 on Rhino Prime) as described on the wiki. These are wildly different and I feel pretty cheated getting only base 150 armor. If I knew that was going to happen I would have gone with Warcry which would give Rhino Prime almost the same armor buff. Is the wiki wrong? Is the UI wrong? I haven’t found a better source to describe abilities in detail than the wiki. EDIT: After testing more in game it is a base 150% increase, which is great. The UI is either missing the “%” symbol or isn’t properly calculating the actual armor increase.
• Why are the infusion costs so different between abilities? It’s so inconsistent - some abilities are very expensive and some are cheap. It doesn’t feel like there’s much rhyme or reason. I get drawing from different pools, and perhaps making abilities that are popular pull from rarer pools, but the cost for infusion should be more consistent.

[Electropuncher]

Railjack resource feed costs are just absolutely too high. Why can I feed Paul (I named mine Paul) 20,000 Nano Spores, a resource that's been in the game since day one and comes in packs of hundreds, but Copernics, which drops very infrequently outside of Railjack and is awarded in the low 1000s as an RJ resource, requires 15,000 to sacrifice? I understand that PC players are going to have some (severe) disparities in content played compared to console, but wow. This is just obscene. I'm wondering if I'll ever use anything for Bile other than Argon and Morphics, maybe Thermal Sludge. On the other hand, I'm not trying to max it out on the first day I have it, so I'm not exactly in a rush to force it to max level.

The grind to get it is abhorrent. This is more a Deimos complaint, but I am not exactly in a rush to ever go back to the Camaron Drift (Deimos looks like a shrimp.) The most egregious case is doing conservation. Not only are the stupid birds, well, stupid, their tracking points seem to dislike spawning. And you need five. I would drop it to like, two. And why isn't it part of the options for ranking up to Entrati 3? Other than "well it's the obvious pick." It's kind of frustrating.

Some ability choices are just plain bad. To be fair, for frames like Ember and Loki, they already have a pretty mediocre kit (I still say Ember's rework was a step back), but having Gara give Spectrorage (which really needs a revisit), Grendel a weakened version of Nourish (when Roar is available and Rhino is just plain easy to get), Nekros giving Terrify (does anyone intentionally use this ability?), etc... Ugh. There are clear and obvious choices for what goes on what.

Then there are the nerfs.

The thread definitely got out of hand, but I don't understand why you would nerf something literally a week before launch, basically when it should have been submitted to cert. And the kind of backhanded reply when the thread was closed was... well, I get it. There was some bile (no pun intended) about our little Wormy guy and he and the team didn't deserve it yet. But now, oh man. I was not informed adding abilities onto a frame would cost me resources. I assumed I would be able to mix and match, and play around. I kinda can, but theoretically, I will be burning through resources doing so. Granted, I guess I could do the math, but until I see what it does in practice, it's not exactly something I want to just calculate. As for some of the choices, sure? I guess? I mean, I'm okay with Warcry getting a nerf on other frames, but a lot of these changes aren't documented particularly well. Really the only one I don't get is weakening Defy, as it's already a pretty mediocre ability. I know I'm in the minority on that one, but I just never really liked it.

And why can't I buy it with platinum, when literally every other thing from open worlds that affects the rest of the game is available (see Gravimags, archwing launchers, etc)? I understand you want players to try the new area out (it's pretty cool, if you haven't yet somehow), but some players are just really not enthused by the idea of doing bounties, fishing, or conservation.

Sorry if this came off as rambling. In short, I see potential, but there are a few problems that need to be solved before I really want to use this.

[selig_fay]

1 hour ago, (XB1)DropTheMike17 said:

I infused Elemental Ward on my Rhino to play around with the cold armor buff, but the UI indicates I’m getting a base 150 armor increase, rather than a base 150% armor increase (I expected base 412.5 on Rhino Prime) as described on the wiki. These are wildly different and I feel pretty cheated getting only base 150 armor. If I knew that was going to happen I would have gone with Warcry which would give Rhino Prime almost the same armor buff. Is the wiki wrong? Is the UI wrong? I haven’t found a better source to describe abilities in detail than the wiki.

Elemental ward always gave a number, not a percentage. When Chroma 3 increased all armor, cold Chroma was popular. But after nerfs, where elemental ward no longer affects chroma 3, it became useful only as a damage reflection with a cold prock.