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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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I assume that replies here will count as normal topics to be looked at then.

Since certain buffing abilities have been nerfed to prevent abuse when used on other frames after subsuming (Rhino's roar, Valkyr's warcry), I would like to ask for a corresponding reduction in energy used (or at least drop it by 25 energy -> from 75 to 50 energy needed)

 

After trying out the allocation of abilities to config slots, can you allow me to move the loadouts around? Say if Quiver is currently infused on loadout A, can I move it to loadout B instead (without extra resources used)

Edited by Zzz-Somnus-zzZ
Addition of more request: ordering
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I went through and evaluated the costs per feed for every item in the Helminth system - and yes the RJ resources really are the glaring problem which is compounded in the Bile category by a combination of a lack of variety and absurd costs for the non-RJ resources. I also found there seems to be random inconsistencies, as there are resources which are very similar in abundance which have dramatically different costs.

You see, the problem is at the moment, the amount of RJ resources that you actually need to feed Helminth just one single time does not encourage me to play Railjack, because there is no chance in hell I'm going to even attempt that level of grind, when getting other resources doesn't require anywhere near of a time investment. If those costs were brought down to a more reasonable level, I would actually play Railjack to get them. I am sure that I am not the only one that feels this way. That is your intention with adding all of the RJ resources into this system, right? To get people to play it more.

To address the lack of variety in certain categories, fish parts and raw ores and gems need to be added to this system ASAP. There was no reason for them to be excluded in the first place. Full breakdown below on current costs below:

Oxides (this category is in desperate need of more variety):
Alloy Plate: 15,000 - This is fine.
Carbides: 10,000 - Uhhh, no. 2000 - 3000 would be way more reasonable to ask per feed.
Ferrite: 20,000 - This is fine.
Gallium: 25 - This seems a bit high especially some other similar in abundance resources are cheaper. Reduce to 15.
Oxium: 750 - It's bad enough you keep making stuff with Auroxium Alloys in their blueprints. Reduce to 400 - even that is still too high but at least a bit more reasonable than 750.
Salvage: 20,000 - This is more than fine.
Tellurium: 10 - Eh, it's fine, I guess.
Titanium: 20,000 - This is sheer insanity. Drop to 2000 - 3000.

Calx (this category is in desperate need of more variety):
Asterite: 5000 - Another one that is sheer insanity. Drop to 500.
Cubic Diodes: 12,500 - Why is this more than Carbides per feed in the first place? Drop to 2000 - 3000.
Gallos Rods: 300 - Like all other RJ resources, this is far, far too much. Drop to 50.
Hexenon: 300 - I think this could do with a slight nerf. Drop to 200 - 250.
Iradite: 50 - Did you get this and Grokdrul the wrong way around? Drop to 25 - 30.
Grokdrul: 30 - Absolutely fine.
Lucent Teraglobe: 50 - Absolutely fine.
Nullstones: 225 - Hahaha you must be joking?! Drop to 25.
Rubedo: 6000 - Ok so I don't understand why this is so much cheaper than Alloy Plates per feed but it's fine.

Biotics:
Dusklight Saracena: 8 - Overall some of the biotics costs per feed seem a tiny bit too much but there's so much variety that it doesn't matter. So this is fine, I guess.
Frostleaf: 8 - These are pretty easy to scan, so this is fine.
Gorgaricus Spore: 25 - Yeah, I think that's fair.
Lunar Pitcher: 8 - See what I said about Dusklight.
Maprico: 50 - Fine, I guess.
Moonlight Dragonlily: 8 - See what I said about Dusklight.
Moonlight Jadeleaf: 8 - Same as above.
Moonlight Threshcone: 8 - I mean these are way more abundant than the previous two. Why not reduce the previous down to 6 or something?
Mytocardia Spore: 8 - I am surprised this is so much lower than Gorgaricus. But it's fine.
Nistlepod: 25 - More than OK.
Pustulite: 25 - More than OK.
Ruk's Claw: 8 - It's fine.
Sunlight Dragonlily: 8
Sunlight Jadeleaf: 8
Sunlight Threshcone: 8 - Similar to Moonlight ones.
Tepa Nodules: 50 - Maybe could be dropped to 30? It's not awful though.
Vestan Moss: 8 - This is fine.

Synthetics:
Aucrux Capacitors: 25 - Another RJ, another absurd requirement. Please nerf to 10.
Circuits: 7000 - Fine, obviously.
Control Module: 75 - This is fine.
Detonite Ampule: 125 - Also fine.
Fieldron Sample: 125 - Also fine, and makes sense to be same as Detonite Ampules.
Kesslers: 300 - Nope. No way. 100 would be far more appropiate.
Komms: 25 - Same as Aucrux Capacitors, should be 10.
Neural Sensors: 25 - I don't understand why this isn't 15 like Neurodes.
Orokin Cells: 15 - It's just slightly painful. Wouldn't mind seeing this be 10, but not fussed if doesn't change.
Polymer Bundle: 12,500 - I'd be fine with this if it wasn't more than twice the amount as Rubedo. If anything these costs should be swapped? It's not horrendous but would like to see this reduced to at most 10,000.

Pheromones:
Bracoid: 1000 - Perhaps the most insane requirement on here, the description of this item even says that it is a rare resource! This needs to be brought down all the way to about 10 - 20.
Chitinous Husk: 3 - This is made reasonable by Juggernauts spawning pretty frequently on Cambion Drift. It's fine.
Infected Palpators: 3 - See above.
Mutagen Sample: 125 - Look, I get that these are supposed to be the equivalent of Detonite Ampules and Fieldron Samples, but in practice there are so many fewer ways to get this resource as opposed to the both of them. Perhaps you could consider 50 - 75?
Nano Spore: 20,000 - Without a doubt the most reasonable cost on here, honestly I wouldn't mind if you increased it as a tradeoff for nerfing the ones that are too high.
Neurodes: 15 - It's fine, but makes me baffled about the Gallium and Neural Sensor costs.
Plastids: 4000 - How is it ok to ask for 12,500 Polymer Bundles but only 4000 Plastids? This is another one where it's fine but makes me baffled about costs for other resources.
Pulsating Tubercles: 3 - As with previous similar resources, it's fine.
Pustrels: 15,000 - Another no way to a RJ resource. Reduce to 2000 - 3000.
Severed Bile Sac: 3 - Juggernaut resource. You know the drill by now.
Trachons: 10,000 - Competing with Bracoid for the most ridiculous requirement per feed. It really should be more like 300.

Bile (this category is in REALLY desperate need of more variety):
Argon Crystals: 3 - Hard one to judge due to the nature of Argon Crystals. However, I can see what you're going for here, and I think this is fine - it's not that hard to get 3 Argon Crystals really.
Copernics: 15,000 - I don't even need to say it any more. Reduce to 2000 - 3000.
Cryotic: 3000 - The kindest thing I can say about this is that someone added a zero to what they actually intended. I really think 500 would be the sweetspot here.
Diluted Thermia: 5 - I hate this with a passion. This is a resource that is only used for one very specific thing, and is only obtainable from a timed event. If it's going to be in at all, it should be 1 per feed.
Fresnels: 1000 - Bracoids all over again. Needs to be brought down to 10 - 20.
Isos: 400 - This is the only RJ resource that is close to being ok, but it still needs to be toned down. Maybe 100 - 150?
Morphics: 40 - This is the one that should actually be 25. But I can live with it, I suppose.
Somatic Fibers: 10 - These only have a 15% to drop from Demolishers on ONE mission node in the whole game, and are only used for ONE specific recipe. It should be 1 per feed, 2 maximum.
Thermal Sludge: 50 - This is an outlier in this category for actually being reasonable.

I, for one, am very disappointed with the response you tweeted yesterday saying that you were not planning to look at Helminth resource costs, as I seriously think you should be looking at it as one of the primary balance issues Heart of Deimos currently has (after all the fixes to the Syndicate economy which were very welcome), along with giving Xaku the love they desperately need.

Tl;dr if you are not going to rebalance the costs at all, then at the very least, make it so that once an ability has been subsumed onto a warframe, you do not have to pay the subsume cost again if you remove it and re-add it later to the same frame. This would then at least allow for the flexibility to experiment with builds - because this is going to cause massive headaches further down the line once players have been able to subsume more and more warframes. EDIT: Of course, you would have to remove the ability to get XP for the ability being re-added, but I do think that'd be a fair trade-off.

Edited by CalamityUK
Forgot a few resources
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On Helminth cost

(from Wiki at time of writing : https://warframe.fandom.com/wiki/Helminth) we have these categories (Oxides, Calx... Bile) and ressources are grouped by these categories. 

IMHO, the main problem is twofold : first, some categories contains few different ressources while some contains a wider variety, and second, ressources rarities between categories don't weight the same.

Ressource Breakdown

Categories # ressources # commons # unco, # rares Sources
Oxydes 8 5 1 3 RJ (1), widespread (7)
Calx 9       RJ (4), PoE (2), Jupiter (1), Cambion (1), widespread (1)
Biotics 18       Scan (11), Cambion (2), Orbis (3), PoE (2)
Synthetics 10       RJ (3), widespread (7)
Pheromones 11       Infested/Derelicts (6), RJ (3), widespread (2)
Bile 9       Void (1), Lua (1), Orbis (2), RJ (3), widespread (2)

I didn't split rarities per categories beyond Oxydes because it's not as straightforward as I thought first and, arguably, quite subjective after all. But, it is certain we can split them per sources and how those sources are harvested : containers/deposits, enemy drops, event or mission rewards, scans.

For clarification :
RJ - railjack only (spare me Eximus looting, even if systematic : think quantities)
Scan - requires specific action + consummable to collect
Widespread - found at least on several locations accross the starmap
Rest is selft-explanatory I suppose

Sources analysis

Oxydes
Contains the most common and widspread ressources, easily harvestable, available for a long time and nearly from anywhere, at the exception of Tellure and Carbides. Still, the most balanced category.

Calx
Apart of rubedo, contains many ressources from specific locations, some from still recent content (railjack). Not balanced.

Biotics
Contains ressources from either open worlds or from scanning flora. Apart from manual scanning, seems balanced.

Synthetics
Offers option to pick from a good mix of common and rare ressources from different sources, even if 3 from railjack only make a bit at odd.

Pheromones
Specific sources in 3 from RJ-only and 6 from juggernaut and infested drops make this category not well-balanced, particularly considering the weight of each ressource as we'll see below.

Bile
No ressources from in this category are available in satisfying quantity regarding the cost of their "lump", even the well-spread ressources, cryotics and morphics,. The weight of each ressource aggravate this issue. 

Silly reasoning

Now, if you agree with the above breakdown, let's make some hypotheses and comparisons.

Assuming each category (Sentient Appetite excepted obviously) has equal or near-equal importance in the cost distribution of Subsuming and Infusing (which i didn't run) ;

Assuming a "veteran" player may have accumulated common and long-available ressources in the million (eg, i personnaly have 4M salvage), less common but still long-available ressource in the tens of thousands and the others in the hundreds at most ;

do we seriously take for granted that 15k Alloy Plate for Oxydes weight the same as 15k Copernics for Bile ? Than 6k Rubedo is the same as 2k Bracoid ? Than 3k Cryotics are just worth 1/4 Polymers ? We could continue on and on, pairing ressources of apparently equal value within each category, then accross categories. Pointless, really ?

Conclusion

Reformulating from above : if able, would you gladly trade 3k Cryotics (you) for my 12k Polymer ? 2k Bracoid from your recent railjack runs for my 6K Rubedo ? I would accept anytime.

TL/DR current ressources dispatch among categories is unbalanced, current cost doesn't take weight truely into account (availability, value, harvest method...) 

 

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14 hours ago, _R_o_g_u_e_ said:

You guys want me to spend a week or two, feed the Helminth the frames I built and the vast majority of my resources, for nerfed versions of abilities?

I love Heart of Deimos, but you guys really dropped the ball with the Helminth. It had potential, it was exciting. But now it’s just another wasted idea on the pile.

Lunaro, Pvp, Railjack, Helminth.

What is the point of putting the hard work in if you’re going to sabotage your own ideas?

Do what you used to, listen to your playerbase. Please.

Edit;

I will grind for new content, dangle a shiny in front of me and I will go ham unlocking it. But the Helminth system isn’t new content. It’s abilities I’ve been using for years. You can’t expect this much effort for recycled content.

PS, did you forget that clans exist?

The Helminth system has crippled any new clan from starting up, how can you expect players to donate resources when they need millions for their Helminth?

All of this is spot on.

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The amount of Railjack material required for the Helminth Chrysalis system appears to be an order of magnitude higher.
I'm playing Railjack to the extent that I've raised all of my intrinstic values to 10, except for command, and this amount of material is instantly depleted.

Also, the bile requirement in feeding is unfairly concentrated in materials that are hard to collect.
I'd like to see the required amount eased, or the materials available in the Cambion Drift be targeted for feeding.

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I've left my feedback in separate thread before I've noticed there's special thread here, so I'm copypasting myself down there

I haven't read every feedback above, so most likely I will not address any new problems, compliments or suggestions

Interface part: 

I would like to see a "confirm choice" or warning window upon choosing configuration slot that already has another transfered ability. For now there's no warning when transfering an ability into already occupied slot.

Also it would be helpful to see timer of sorts on recently fed resources recovering their efficiency.

Speaking of resources off the topic, railjack resources are underpriced for helminth. I can't believe 20.000 nanospores are equal 15.000 pastrels.

Here I've seen Laestic breaking it down.

Options part:

We're being offered to replace 1 ability in each warframe slot. But I can not transfer one ability in two different slots if I am replacing two different abilities. Breaking down in an example:

I want to transfer rhino's roar for my Oberon, replacing smite for regular build and reckoning for eidolon build. I intend to transfer same ability into two slots. However For each slot I want different ability to be replaced, and Helminth doesn't let me choose different abilities to be replaced.

While choosing transfering I'm only offered with 1 ability slot to replace, and after transfering I'm not offered to transfer that same ability again, I can only transfer different ability or forget said "roar"

So far I didn't have any other issues with Helminth, absolutely love new build depths. 

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Marked for Death doesn't work on Ziplines. It would be VERY useful it was able to.

There is actually several abilities that don't work while on Ziplines. Highly annoyed because Ivara is my girl.

Also Navigator + Air blast has a weird interaction in that it toggles off Navigator and I can't navigate it.

Edited by DeeDeetheSpy
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7 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if costs are too high how have people got to lvl6-10 helminth already? 

If Jeff Bezos has billions of dollars why are children starving in Africa?

If Aristotle could use logic more then 2000 years ago why can't you? 

6 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

why don't you have thousands of sentient materials then as well? like the awesome powerleveling guys?

See above.

I saw that polemic posts tend to be deleted (including mine), however your posts that add absolutely nothing to the discussion aren't. What is this "lower than absurd resource quantity"-shaming? It's a game and people have lives. That's why they don't have the resources. Maybe DE will change, maybe they don't. Maybe players who ask for that change will continue to play the game, maybe they won't. 

Actually I am getting tired of this. In 2-3 years max your will be playing with all those millions of resources all alone. No host migration, props to you, you now have all the resources!

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We really don't need to see randoms like some dude with 250k Cryotic making the laughable assertion that 3k per turn in is reasonable. 

Simply look at the what it takes to get 3k Cryotic. Thirty rounds of excavation for ONE turn in of ONE category. 

Then think for a few seconds about the number of Warframes there are to subsume + the fact that currently you have to re-pay a cost every time you infuse an ability even into a frame that you had previously infused into. The future ongoing cost of infusions is really the biggest factor people need to think about, not just subsuming each frame once. 

Then think about the fact that you advertised this as some interesting system to play around with numerous possible combinations. Then realize that the laughably insane grind time involved in actually playing around with numerous combinations on multiple frames over time with multiple infusions per frame just isn't reasonable at all. Especially given how weak many of the abilities are. 

People simply are not going to bother playing around with it that much if the costs are that prohibitive. They'll just take a few meta combinations that some youtuber tried out so they didn't have to waste their own resources trying anything themselves and leave it there to rot. The costs as they are actively discourage any significant experimentation. 

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Bile variety and number balance is just straight up bad.

The infusion costs also don't allow for experimentation at all. I'm more than fine with the high entry prices when subsuming but swapping abilities around should be more flexible if you want any build variety. Even if I do have enough resources, I just can't bring myself to dump several rounds of exav just to test some build that I might want to swap out. 

All this encourages is subsuming the best abilities, putting them your favourite frames and forget this thing exists.

On a side note, I get that you want to future proof railjack resources but that thing isn't really that popular or repayable to accumulate the kind of numbers you're asking for.

Nerfs on this system would also absolutely drive people away. It's a giant time and resource sink with no guarantee you're not just gonna come one day and announce you're adjusting "the meta" (that you actively participate in creating with the costs adn the initial ability roster) and make you have to reinfuse on a large number of frames again.  why even bother at that point. Ditching a weapon is one thing but readjusting builds and reinfusing on a large number of frames is another. We'll see what's popular and nerf it for "variety" doesn't work here (if also doesn't work for rivens but that's another can of worms). If you want more of that buff the non-options and lower the infusion costs to something less punishing.

Edited by SSI_Seraph
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you dropped the ball hard on ressources for bile. there needs to be MUCH more usable ressources. i got many, MANY gems or fish aprts from other places that would no problem work in. also, for the rarity of these, the numbers should be much lower.

second, you can't ALWAYS change your abilities. the fact that you need to give up ressources everytime to change abilities will simply make it so that everyone takes what they want the most, and forget about all the rest. why are you always limiting yourself so hard? all it does is risking another of your uncalled for ( and also, deeply uneducated ) nerf because "muh popularity, must be varied", except that it won't change anything but to make the whole system forgotten. look at the ressource cost of a few categories, and ESPECIALLY railjack ones.

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23 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

Dude... you don't seem to understand that people have favorite frames that won't be primed for literally years...

Your response is callous and unreasonable.

While his response might've been a little too harsh, your reasoning is just...

If you like a warframe to such extent that you're using an umbral forma on it, then do NOT subsume it? If you don't want to farm it again, you won't be able to play it until it gets primed either way. Like for real, dude...

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There is something very important I have noticed: Can you guys please add in the Info tooltip of Helminth that over time (whether playing missions or waiting IRL time) the desires of Helminth change? I remember that when Fresnels were craved (only resource in green) I started feeding other stuff in that category even if it was in red because I couldn't give him that, and noticed this isn't mentioned anywhere upon double checking as I suspected.

This is very important information, and lacking it can undeniably lure players towards doing stuff they can possibly regret. I know you guys like to be fair, so please do that so no one else gets misguided into thinking something that it's not.

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On 2020-09-01 at 12:49 AM, Klokwerkaos said:

Dude... you don't seem to understand that people have favorite frames that won't be primed for literally years...

Your response is callous and unreasonable.

You willingly slapped your Nidus with the Umbral Formas in spite of knowing how rare they are currently. I have no sympathy because you are solely responsible for your current predicament.

Besides. Why are you even considering feeding your Umbra forma'd Nidus to Helminth anyway? Just go farm/build another one. 

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Having to pay to infuse each time is a big turn off. I pay to get roar on a frame, then i change it to something else, then if i want roar back boom gotta pay again. This is beyond ridiculous and does not at all encourage "creativity and testing". It would be cheaper to just buy the 3 extra config slots and use 6 abilities on that frame and swap them around. Determining which ability you want is the big issue. Like others have said, everyone will just find a meta combination that someone had already tried out and stick to it. Other than this and some resource rebalancing i don't have a problem with the system. 

IF i pay to infuse an ability on a frame, i want to have that ability PERMANENTLY at the disposal of that frame. I don't want to have to pay for the same thing i had paid for again.

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- When rearranging mod Configs from a frame with an infused ability, the config will change, but the infused abilities will stay in the same spot. Please make it so when you swap config A with config B, the infused ability in A also swaps with the infused ability in B, or allow us to rearrange abilities from configs at no cost.

- Railjack resource costs for feeding are too high. Cut their costs by 1/100th for them to be remotely viable

- When a frame is finished subsuming, its body will still stay in the wall and vanishes only when you susbsume the next one/leave the orbiter. I think that when the timer hits 0, the body should quickly fully merge into the wall and the tentacles that were holding it open for the next one.

- The liked/disliked foods should change every 6 hours, on top of current instant like/dislike system, so that we aren't forced to feed it with a very expensive resource we don't have: every 6 hours, all disliked foods become neutral, and all neutral foods become liked.

- Platinum cost for rushing should scale with the remaining time: from current 50p, make it reduce 2p each hour.

- Costs for infusing abilities are too high to allow us to test them, so we need to rely on throrycrafting or wait until a youtuber puts a video explaining all the meta synergies so we don't waste resources. Suggestion: take the current costs and make it scaled with how many configs you want to put the ability: only 1 config = 1/3 of the cost; 2 configs = 2/3 of the cost; 3 configs = current cost; 4+ configs = either 4/3 of current costs or make it so the current cost is applied to anything greater than 3 configs. This way we can install an ability in only 1 config to allow testing.

- Alternative to previous topic: instead of reducing infusion costs, allow us to freely swap subsumed abilities while in the simulacrum so we can test there and decide which one we will put in the frame. While allowing ALL subsumable abilities would be the best for testing so we could even choose which frame we would feed the Helminth, I think that would be too much, so keeping it only for subsumed abilities would be a fair deal.

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