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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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I don't know if anyone's said this yet, but is it possible to get some sort of indicator somewhere to tell us which frames we have already subsumed? It might be helpful for planning out what suits to farm/build.

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Some initial thoughts after playing around with the system for a few days:

  • The resource costs for feeding railjack resources are way too high and not consistent with other things.
  • I infused Elemental Ward on my Rhino to play around with the cold armor buff, but the UI indicates I’m getting a base 150 armor increase, rather than a base 150% armor increase (I expected base 412.5 on Rhino Prime) as described on the wiki. These are wildly different and I feel pretty cheated getting only base 150 armor. If I knew that was going to happen I would have gone with Warcry which would give Rhino Prime almost the same armor buff. Is the wiki wrong? Is the UI wrong? I haven’t found a better source to describe abilities in detail than the wiki. EDIT: After testing more in game it is a base 150% increase, which is great. The UI is either missing the “%” symbol or isn’t properly calculating the actual armor increase.
  • Why are the infusion costs so different between abilities? It’s so inconsistent - some abilities are very expensive and some are cheap. It doesn’t feel like there’s much rhyme or reason. I get drawing from different pools, and perhaps making abilities that are popular pull from rarer pools, but the cost for infusion should be more consistent.
Edited by (XB1)DropTheMike17
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Railjack resource feed costs are just absolutely too high. Why can I feed Paul (I named mine Paul) 20,000 Nano Spores, a resource that's been in the game since day one and comes in packs of hundreds, but Copernics, which drops very infrequently outside of Railjack and is awarded in the low 1000s as an RJ resource, requires 15,000 to sacrifice? I understand that PC players are going to have some (severe) disparities in content played compared to console, but wow. This is just obscene. I'm wondering if I'll ever use anything for Bile other than Argon and Morphics, maybe Thermal Sludge. On the other hand, I'm not trying to max it out on the first day I have it, so I'm not exactly in a rush to force it to max level.

The grind to get it is abhorrent. This is more a Deimos complaint, but I am not exactly in a rush to ever go back to the Camaron Drift (Deimos looks like a shrimp.) The most egregious case is doing conservation. Not only are the stupid birds, well, stupid, their tracking points seem to dislike spawning. And you need five. I would drop it to like, two. And why isn't it part of the options for ranking up to Entrati 3? Other than "well it's the obvious pick." It's kind of frustrating.

Some ability choices are just plain bad. To be fair, for frames like Ember and Loki, they already have a pretty mediocre kit (I still say Ember's rework was a step back), but having Gara give Spectrorage (which really needs a revisit), Grendel a weakened version of Nourish (when Roar is available and Rhino is just plain easy to get), Nekros giving Terrify (does anyone intentionally use this ability?), etc... Ugh. There are clear and obvious choices for what goes on what.

Then there are the nerfs.

The thread definitely got out of hand, but I don't understand why you would nerf something literally a week before launch, basically when it should have been submitted to cert. And the kind of backhanded reply when the thread was closed was... well, I get it. There was some bile (no pun intended) about our little Wormy guy and he and the team didn't deserve it yet. But now, oh man. I was not informed adding abilities onto a frame would cost me resources. I assumed I would be able to mix and match, and play around. I kinda can, but theoretically, I will be burning through resources doing so. Granted, I guess I could do the math, but until I see what it does in practice, it's not exactly something I want to just calculate. As for some of the choices, sure? I guess? I mean, I'm okay with Warcry getting a nerf on other frames, but a lot of these changes aren't documented particularly well. Really the only one I don't get is weakening Defy, as it's already a pretty mediocre ability. I know I'm in the minority on that one, but I just never really liked it.

And why can't I buy it with platinum, when literally every other thing from open worlds that affects the rest of the game is available (see Gravimags, archwing launchers, etc)? I understand you want players to try the new area out (it's pretty cool, if you haven't yet somehow), but some players are just really not enthused by the idea of doing bounties, fishing, or conservation.

Sorry if this came off as rambling. In short, I see potential, but there are a few problems that need to be solved before I really want to use this.

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1 hour ago, (XB1)DropTheMike17 said:

I infused Elemental Ward on my Rhino to play around with the cold armor buff, but the UI indicates I’m getting a base 150 armor increase, rather than a base 150% armor increase (I expected base 412.5 on Rhino Prime) as described on the wiki. These are wildly different and I feel pretty cheated getting only base 150 armor. If I knew that was going to happen I would have gone with Warcry which would give Rhino Prime almost the same armor buff. Is the wiki wrong? Is the UI wrong? I haven’t found a better source to describe abilities in detail than the wiki.

Elemental ward always gave a number, not a percentage. When Chroma 3 increased all armor, cold Chroma was popular. But after nerfs, where elemental ward no longer affects chroma 3, it became useful only as a damage reflection with a cold prock.

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On 2020-08-25 at 5:30 PM, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

Congratulations on overcoming the challenges of working remotely to simultaneously launch on all Platforms and bring us the best Warframe Experience yet!  We truly appreciate all the hard work and risks you take (yes, even when we get ridiculous with our feedback and expectations, we still love you guys...forgive us).

Thank YOU, DE TEAM!

Through all my vitriolic zingers;  Quote and repost, my sentiments exactly!

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Abilities: It was announced in the Dev Workshop that many of the abilities that are available to be Subsumed would be receiving buffs as the Dev Team was aware many of them were lackluster in some ways. Now, some of the abilities did get buffs but one that was passed over was Decoy. In its current state Decoy stands to be the one ability literally no player is going to subsume. It's objectively worse than Molt which is also available to be Subsumed. Let's examine why that is:

  1. Molt has a 3 second Invulnerability period where damage taken is added to the Molt's total health. Decoy does not.
  2. Molt has 400 Shields and 500 Base Health. Molt's Health is affected by Ability Strength. Decoy has 400 Shields and 200 Health. Decoy's Health is not affected by Ability Strength.
  3. Molt explodes on death, dealing 400 Base Toxin damage with a 100% guaranteed status proc to enemies within 10 meters. Decoy does nothing on death.
  4. Molt removes status effects and increases movement speed. Decoy does nothing.

The differences are pretty staggering. In its current state, Decoy basically only exists for Loki to Switch Teleport with, and nothing else, because it will die in about 2 hits in any mission above level 20 which means it will fail in its primary intended use as, well, a decoy. Now, I'm aware that DE is hesitant to touch Loki's kit at all since historically he has been a very powerful Warframe that can solo most content even today. However, Decoy is now an ability that can be put onto other Warframes. I implore you to examine why someone would want to do so, over a much more useful ability that serves the same purpose like Molt, especially without Switch Teleport which is its one use on Loki. In order to make subsuming Decoy more appealing, Decoy needs a buff badly. Here are my proposed changes:

  1. Decoy now has a 3 second Invulnerability period where damage taken is added to the Decoy's total health, like Molt.
  2. Decoy's Health is affected by Ability Strength, like Molt.
  3. Decoy's Lato/Lex can now apply status effects other than IPS based on the user's current secondary mods. For instance, if you have Corrosive damage on your secondary weapon, the Decoy has a chance to apply Corrosive to enemies it shoots at (the Decoy's shots still deal no damage). This gives Decoy a different use than Molt, as one that provide status effects instead of getting rid of them. This can provide interesting opportunities for the player, such as taking Radiation damage and using the Decoy as a small form of crowd control.

These buffs would put it on more equal footing with Molt. Unless Decoy is buffed, I can put Molt over Decoy on Loki and it will be a straight upgrade in every case where I don't want to just Switch Teleport with it, which is 90% of missions.

Resource Costs: As other people have already mentioned, the cost of feeding Railjack resources is ridiculously high. People aren't going to have as much of these resources compared to older resources (like my 2 million+ nanospores) especially considering that all these resources are required for Railjack components in general so chances are you've already spent them. I'm someone who's played Railjack quite a bit since it came out and I still would have to feed literally all of the Gallos Rods or Carbides I have to Helminth to feed him once. As for Bracoids... I believe the image speaks for itself.

yFjDGx7.png

 

Edited by Fireshock
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11 hours ago, Ace-Bounty-Hunter said:

You willingly slapped your Nidus with the Umbral Formas in spite of knowing how rare they are currently. I have no sympathy because you are solely responsible for your current predicament.

Besides. Why are you even considering feeding your Umbra forma'd Nidus to Helminth anyway? Just go farm/build another one. 

you are making wrong assumptions.

It actually requires 2 umbral Forma, I'm not the only one.  Literally everyone with a Favoriate Frame oF nezha or later (minus inaros) is in the same boat.

I already Farmed another one, that's not the point you don't seem to understand how this AFFECTS PEOPLE THAT AREN'T ME.  I had all extra Frames Farmed beFore hand.

I get it, you're holier than thou and smug and better than everyone, even though there is a 99% chance your account inFo doesn't measure up to mine who you are making a point to talk down to.  That's Fine, but just understand that your argument is bad because it doesn't take a lot into account, I would explain, but I Feel as though any additional words are wasted on people with their mind made up and are being smug to boot.

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14 hours ago, -Loko- said:

While his response might've been a little too harsh, your reasoning is just...

If you like a warframe to such extent that you're using an umbral forma on it, then do NOT subsume it? If you don't want to farm it again, you won't be able to play it until it gets primed either way. Like for real, dude...

It's not about me, you're taking the wrong approach just like he is because you're making bad assumptions, I'm pretty positive his is in bad Faith, I'm not assuming yours are yet, but there's more to it than that.

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After some experimenting with the helmith it's quite clear it's lacking in the one thing we wanted from it: ability to experiment.
It's very expensive to feed and subsume/infuse abilities, I had hoped the system would be more aimed towards letting long time players experiment and change things around, but it seams more like theorycraft, then infuse once.
And you can't move the ability either if you decide "hmm maybe i shouldn't had changed the 2nd ability into this, maybe it would have feelt better to have had in in the 3rd" and also the ability to swap different abilities in different loadouts, Say i want firewalker on Nova instead of antimatter drop for my general build in slot A, but i then also want a build where i have it instead of portal in slot C, it cannot be done as you can only infuse the same ability slot, after that "remove" is the only option and then all the costs come back again.


Also was inconsistency in recourse demands for categorys, and very big inconsistencys where some rare materials are as low as 3, some are 10 or 15 and then morphics are all the way up at 40 per feed! and TOO many oddly specific resources in bile category (lua distuption specific resource, time event limited resource), and as many has pointed out, railjack resource costs are extemely high comparably. (id make that case for oxium and cryotic too).
I thought we finally would have some use for our hundreds of thousands of ferrite and million nano spores not even decorating dojos can consume... but instead we're just stuck on the same rare/uncommon resources as everything else while the stuff of abundance keeps being abundant.







All that said, ability to finally cure the space cancer as soon as we see it instead of carrying the gross tumor thing for a week is a welcomed change👍.

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I'd say 90% of the helmith system I love to death, my only real complaint on it is, why nerf the Dispensery from Protea? I get that the restock is good, but it just means I cast it twice basically with no real drawback overall except loosing a little bit more energy, Roar, Larva and Warcry nerf I understand, but that one is just weird to me. 

The only other things is why some frame abilities were picked, for example Loki's decoy and Zephyr's Airburst, both of which are fairly low end abilities while other frames got their top end abilities picked. As has been said on here before, no matter how much you nerf other top ends, a lot of the other mentioned low ends will just not get picked. For example, even with Larva's reduced range, I'd still pick it 100% over airburst every time. Heck even if it got nerfed again I'd still pick Pull over it. And Decoy, even on Loki I don't use it since it makes enemies set off alarms usually. 

Regardless of the rant, I do feel some frames need to have their abilities repicked as something better to actually put them into the running of being used.

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I'm still going to mention it again, but an important consideration in the Helminth costs should be new and casual player accessibility. This isn't something like Railjack where it's a hefty one-time cost for something that's ultimately kept so far apart from 99% of the game, this is a feature that has an inherent positive transformative effect on Warframe's core gameplay.

It should be affordable and accessible to everyone. Not just those of the playerbase that have millions in resources already.

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Acquiring the Helminth: I think Rank 3 with the Entrati and 15,000 Standing are both very fair requirements, neither of those are particularly hard. However, if your goal is for only experienced players to engage in this system, Mastery Rank 8 is too low. These players are generally still engaging in the main game's content, and are not really experienced players yet. Mastery 15 was a little high, so I think somewhere between 10-12 would work well if you really want this to be aimed at more experienced players.

Subsuming Warframes: I think this system works well. I personally wouldn't ever rush it, but I appreciate that you can. I also like that this gives the most experience, that feels very appropriate. 

Costs: This is where the Helminth system falls down the most. If you want players to experiment with different abilities, rather than just choosing the best choice, these costs are prohibitively expensive, even for experienced players. This is specifically true for Bile, as it has the fewest options, most of which are either rare resources or ridiculous costs, and is needed by the most things.

Let's look at which options are the worst of these.

  • Most Railjack resources are priced way too high. This is a game mode that will be played rarely, as it is self contained, so while with sustained playing you might get a stockpile of their resources, realistically you will spend everything you are acquiring. Unless this game mode is integrated into the rest of the game and given better rewards, these numbers are way, way too high.  The worst examples of this are Fresnels, Bracoids, Gallos Rods, Asterite, and Nullstones, but all of them are very, very high.
  • Mutagen Samples do seem a bit high, as there are a large requirement for them else where. 
  • Cryotic prices are absolutely absurd. 3000 Cryotic is 30 runs in excavation. That takes a huge amount of time, and this is a resource you need a lot of elsewhere as well. 
  • Diluted Thermia is also very high. This is hard to acquire, takes a long time, and is used in a very important boss fight.

Now let's look at what options specifically are in Bile:

  • Argon Crystals: Decent, but you can't stockpile these.
  • Copernics: Railjack resource with a very high cost
  • Cryotic: Discussed above
  • Diluted Thermia: Discussed above
  • Fresnals: Railjack
  • Isos: Railjack, though this price is closer to fair
  • Morphics: Rare resource, though a decent cost
  • Somatic Fibers: Fair Price
  • Thermal Sludge: Fair Price

This is the most used resource, and it has two to four options with okay prices, and if you only feed Helminth a few things, they stop working. This is absurd, and discourages experimentation. If you want to avoid everyone using the same things, this is not how to do that, and believe it or not, nerfing them doesn't either. All nerfing them does is either do nothing, as all your nerfs to the "broken" abilities did, or go too far and make them useless, removing them as options, thus limiting player choice anyway. If you really want to encourage players to use other abilities than the "best", which you will never be able to stop anyway, you either have to buff the abilities that are bad (Which you refuse to do for some reason), or at the very least make it cheap to try different abilities, so you can see what is enjoyable, rather than what is statistically best, which you can mostly figure out without experimenting.

This is a good system, I enjoy it, it adds a lot of depth to the game. But the way you've set it up is flawed, and encourages exactly what you want to avoid.

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What makes me sad about Helminth:: you can't infuse the same abililty over different warframe ability slots in different configs.  For example, I want my Hildryn to have Rebuld Shields in place of Haven on config A so I can do an Aegis Storm build.  But I want Rebuild Shields in place of Aegis Storm on config B for a Blazing Pillage build.  As far as I can tell, this is currently impossible to do on the same frame because infusion always overwrites the same warframe ability on all activated configs, and you cannot infuse the same ability more than once.

With Rebuild Shields already installed on config A, you cannot infuse it again in config B.  You can only remove it and reinfuse. This seems overly restrictive to me, and the time/resurce penalty is too large, especially when it comes on top of the fact that removing an infusion invalidates first infused build and any investment made into it.  Perhaps it's just a design oversight?

Apologies if this was already mentined. I haven't read thru the entire thread to see if this has been discussed already.

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Would it be possible to allow the subsumed version of rest & rage to be put onto equinox in place of the base version since they differently; energy color as opposed to day or night form. Seems like it should work considering it would open up more options for her, rest or rage on both form

Edited by (XB1)Tre was taken
Wording
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On 2020-09-01 at 4:07 AM, zoffmode said:

I was planning on going hardmode on Helminth with subsuming all frames then experimenting with different combos... to you know, have some variety in gameplay...

I expected some heavy costs, but not like this. My current plan is to stop at 3 or 4 subsumed frames, apply it to a couple favorites then turn off Warframe and play another game.

 

So yeah, I'd say the costs are too much.

Well it's a good thing the content isn't going anywhere and you have no need to rush. Better get to farming, then. 

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Bile costs are insane, lvl 8 heminth perk is near to useless, if it reset appetite to ALL resources it would be worthwhile.

My years of farming cryotic and morphics are gone in a day...

This is system is for veterans you say? Why we have ability to skip hacks then? It is of no problem to hack in under 8 sec or stockpile ciphers for a veteran. Ability to heal our pets when it is of no problem to a veteran player to heal his pet? Is it a joke?

Edited by Lead_Codpiece
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Helminth's appetite really needs to go to green more often as there aren't enough options for bile so all of my resources are in the red and I have only 3 choices in green that I don't have enough resources for because of how overly expensive they are. Speaking of expensive, railjack resources cost way too much to give to helminth especially resources like fresnels.

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Almost everything, including Helminth skills, needs Bile.

Bile is the single one worst to get.

Sources for Bile are:

  • Copernics: I've grinded a lot tier 3 railjack and have lots of those. However, they are going low quickly. It has the same cost as non-railjack resources which I have over 1 million, vs 100k. Lol.
  • Cryotic: From excavation only. You need to get 30 drills complete in order to feed once.
  • Diluted Thermia: Event only. Needs to complete 5 thermias.
  • Fresnels: I could feed only once this railjack resource. Lower tier railjack, nobody does it.
  • Isos: Same as Copernics.
  • Morphics: The only one that feels alright.
  • Somatic Fibers: Drops off ONE node and you rarely get one from Demolishers. You need 10 of them for a single feed. Big lol.
  • Thermal Sludge: This feels alright too.

Please change the costs and add more resources to this category. Most of them are really specific to get.

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I was hoping to use Banshee's Silence on Ivara to stay in Prowl while firing a non-silent weapon, but alas this synergy doesn't work and firing under the effects of Silence still takes you out of Prowl momentarily. The wording on Silence is a bit vague (and since Banshee silences all weapons anyway it's hard to tell that it doesn't make a weapon count as silent), but this seems like a nice combo that feels like it should work.

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I am pretty disappointed with this feature to be honest. I was hoping for something like kitgun esque in the sense that everything ability wise should be available. I get that they're trying to balance stuff but shouldn't this feature be an endgame thing so balancing shouldn't matter. I don't want to play frost... I just want his bubble. I don't enjoy restrictions on things that shouldn't be left out since those consumed warframes have more than just 1 ability. I farmed 4 frosts, 4 rhinos, 4 Oberon and I ended up disappointed. Definitely not worth the grind.

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Give us the ability to correct the creature in how it addresses us.  I find it insulting to be called a demon.  The context of the conversation is evil.  I'm not going to play a game that I often play with my kids where being an evil creature is cool.  I know there is reference by other NPC, but never by one we take care of and interact with and have the ability to correct.  We need to be able to have the option to correct this creature and change dialog on how it addresses you.

It's enough for me to leave the game.  

 

 

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On 2020-08-27 at 5:07 PM, (XB1)BROSCAY said:

I feel that the nerfs to the abilities of the subsumed warframes was not necessary. It leaves a bad taste in my mouth when theres an issue like this, and instead of buffing other abilities to make them better, they get nerfed and become effectively not worth using. This system seems like it was created to encourage creativity. When you nerf the best abilities, at least for me personally, it doesn't make me want to use the other abilities. It makes me want to not use the system at all because not a whole lot of the abilities given are really good. I hope you guys decide to go back on the decision to nerf those abilities and instead, maybe buff some more abilities to make those more appealing and make me reconsider using roar or larva. Also, in my opinion, the grind for the helminth system is a little high. I'd appreciate it if you made it able to be purchased with platinum and/or reduce the grind to get there. 

EDIT: I just got my hands on the helminth system. The resource requirement is WAY too high. Nobody at MR8 is going to have the resources necessary to use the helminth system in its current state, and even me, who is MR23 is still struggling with materials for it. I think the resource requirement should be at least halfed, if not quartered for certain materials like copernics and carbides and such. Also there should be a way to increase the amount of frames you can subsume at a time, plus a way to rush subsuming. You can rush almost every time required process in warframe, it feels odd that you can't rush the subsuming process.

Thanks for reading, love you DE. Please do something about these issues.

I feel this 100% when it comes to the resources. I've been playing for a long time (2013) and I'm struggling with a lot of these resource requirements. It honestly deters me from even bothering with the system because everything costs an obnoxious amount from feeding it to even infusing abilities. Personally I feel like a good portion of these resources need to be individually looked at, especially the ones more recently introduced (Railjack is a good example....) and have their cost greatly reduced. I honestly don't think halving them would be enough.

 

Honestly this doesn't make me want to go back and just grind more resources, just makes me want to quickly go do something else then log off and go about my day. I would have loved to try mucking about with different Warframe ability combinations but this cost along makes me not even want to bother.

 

Been playing 7 years and I find these costs absolutely insane even with all those resources under my belt. And I'm MR23 so I clearly haven't built even close to everything!!!

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1 hour ago, Lakyus said:

Almost everything, including Helminth skills, needs Bile.

Bile is the single one worst to get.

Sources for Bile are:

  • Copernics: I've grinded a lot tier 3 railjack and have lots of those. However, they are going low quickly. It has the same cost as non-railjack resources which I have over 1 million, vs 100k. Lol.
  • Cryotic: From excavation only. You need to get 30 drills complete in order to feed once.
  • Diluted Thermia: Event only. Needs to complete 5 thermias.
  • Fresnels: I could feed only once this railjack resource. Lower tier railjack, nobody does it.
  • Isos: Same as Copernics.
  • Morphics: The only one that feels alright.
  • Somatic Fibers: Drops off ONE node and you rarely get one from Demolishers. You need 10 of them for a single feed. Big lol.
  • Thermal Sludge: This feels alright too.

Please change the costs and add more resources to this category. Most of them are really specific to get.

And this^

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11 hours ago, Klokwerkaos said:

It's not about me, you're taking the wrong approach just like he is because you're making bad assumptions, I'm pretty positive his is in bad Faith, I'm not assuming yours are yet, but there's more to it than that.

But what assumptions? I just don't understand how subsuming a non-prime warframe (of which you have only one copy and don't want to farm more), no matter if it has umbral forma or not, doesn't take away the ability to play that warframe before it gets primed.

Edited by -Loko-
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