Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[Xikto 152]

5 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

why does every category need to be the same in that regard?

Currently it's economy is unbalaced, meaning it will take less time for me a MR 25 to get the required plastids than somatic fibers or thermia or the plants, you get what i am saying? all of the categories should be in line not that all of em are ez but that one is hard!

Edited September 9, 2020 by Xikto
mistakenly repeated sth

[Proscriptor 802]

i don't get what you mean at all. 

why should all the categories be in line?

why is taking less time to get plastids than somatic fibers a bad thing?

what does that have to do with the economy being balanced?

how do you define "economy being balanced" in general terms, anyway?

[RivaAurelius 555]

1 hour ago, Traubenzuckr said:

don't touch bile costs, progressing through helminth ranks is already trivial for a veteran player, you can do it completely passively, just by subsuming warframes and feeding it needed mats for that over the course of about two weeks

when you hit rank 8, infusing becomes trivial as well

all the players who have difficulty with the new system simply need to git better

don't bring this new system down to the level of the lowest common denominator, the game should test people's boundaries and broaden their thinking. 

Are you kidding? I am a veteran with years under my belt and even I am struggling with the resource costs for bile. From your "git better" statement I'm assuming you're joking or a troll, but the costs for bile and railjack resources in general are ridiculous. Progressing through the helminth ranks has cost me almost all of the resources I had available for bile, it is certainly not trivial. And even when you reach max rank with Helminth, you have a potentially INFINITE number of warframes to subsume, and you have a potentially INFINITE number of infusion combinations to try. I can barely even subsume a warframe at this point if it costs bile, how am I supposed to experiment with different ability combinations as was intended by the devs when they implemented this system? Resource costs need to change, ESPECIALLY bile and railjack. 

[RivaAurelius 555]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

something has been deeply wrong with your ability to accumulate resources over a longer period of time

i don't know what it is but so far the most common diagnosis has been: solo player

My diagnosis for anyone who has no problem with bile costs: Too much time on their hands. 

Do not come at me making assumptions. This system was made available to MR8, it is supposed to be accessible. The devs may say it's for "experienced players", but when the system is unlocked at MR8, we all know that isn't true. Newer players are gonna unlock this system, not be able to do anything with it, and abandon it. This system will DIE unless adjustments are made. I am not having an argument with you about whether the costs are too high or not, because anyone with their head screwed on straight can see the costs are ridiculous. 

[RivaAurelius 555]

1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

helminth is for dedicated players, not casuals like yourself

If you could see my total gametime and playing habits, you would not be calling me a casual. I'm done with you, have a nice day. 

[Proscriptor 802]

Just now, RivaAurelius said:

If you could see my total gametime and playing habits, you would not be calling me a casual. I'm done with you, have a nice day. 

get some resources like everyone else and stop embarrassing yourself

[RivaAurelius 555]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

get some resources like everyone else and stop embarrassing yourself

Look at this whole entire thread. "Everyone else" is saying the resource costs are too high. Go back to no-lifing the game, like I said, I'm done with you. 

[Proscriptor 802]

you can't frame my being at least at the baseline level of performance in the game (i never actively grinded resources) no-lifing

i mean you can try, but that only goes to reveal your lack of ability at playing efficiently

[RivaAurelius 555]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

you can't frame my being at least at the baseline level of performance in the game (i never actively grinded resources) no-lifing

i mean you can try, but that only goes to reveal your lack of ability at playing efficiently

Done. With. You. Troll. 

[Proscriptor 802]

just look at all the players who already got to rank 10 (i haven't btw as i'm taking it real easy on myself so i'm sitting at rank 8), and call them trolls too

some aren't even terribly experienced players, there have been some almost new players in that group

[Chronozilla 126]

Reposting here because this is the right place:
Fresnels are BY FAR the worst resource in the entire system, Bracoids have the same issue but since they're not in the painful bile category, those are easier to overlook.

You need 1000 Fresnels for one helminth snack.


Okay cool, how many do you get as a mission reward?

So you're telling me i need to do 500-1000 missions to feed my helminth just once with fresnels? that's utterly unacceptable.
Now, i know this doesn't include in-mission drops, but as of right now i've done about a hundred veil proxima missions and i'm sitting on 600 Fresnels.

To quickly mention other railjack resources, an appropriate amount for the common ones would be 3000-5000, for the uncomon ones, 100-150 and for the rare ones (Such as Fresnels) 10-20.

Can you imagine if it took 1000 orokin cells just to fill bile 30%? That's what Fresnels are right now.

------------------

The infusion system itself is good i guess, you usually have 10 or so options that are always relevant, another 10 that are super niche and then a bunch of obscure or useless things at the bottom. Nerfing the top 6 to be lesser-than-expected does hurt, but they're all still viable. buffing the bottom 40 to be on par with the top nerfed 6 would be power creep and not a good balance approach, that's a given, but buffing the bottom 8 (fire blast, ice wave, spectrorage, banish, decoy, mind control, reave, airburst) that currently have zero use cases across the board is absolutely needed.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Chronozilla

[Zahnny 6,509]

Can we recieve a "Checklist" of some sort for Subsumed Frames? I'm bad at keeping track and I garuntee I'll forget which frames I have not subsumed as I get further down.

[Proscriptor 802]

don't feed it fresnels and you're fine

there were people in the past days reporting how they had thousands of fresnels and did indeed feed fresnels to the helminth

idk why, but they did it and so what? are they worse off in any way? do their remaining thousands of fresnels do not suffice for their crafting needs?

fresnels are there to paint the cost efficiency gradation to the player - it's supposed to make you think

[Chroia 3,452]

I get the rather high initial 'subsume' cost.

50%-70% Bile (Dispensary and Roar, respectively.) for an infusion, though, combined with the craving mechanic?
(And before you point it out, yes, I know that other abilities are cheaper.
I also know there's no way to see how much infusing (or subsuming, for that matter) will cost, aside from actually mousing over the specific ability/frame and looking at the popup.)

Not very 'rapid iteration' friendly, not conducive to testing on a single frame, nor across multiple frames, at a sitting.
Nor is it conducive to planning, unless you like juggling spreadsheets.

 

How to fix?
I'd increase the initial cost to subsume (which would necessitate lowering the gain from feeding Helminth) and significantly lower the infusion cost.

---

Also, the Railjack resource costs are ludicrous.
I'm sitting at 10/10/10/10, and have (iirc) ~10 feedings for uncommon resources, 2-3 of common, and not enough for 1 feeding of Fresnels.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Chroia

[(PSN)Boise_State_star 1]

It's fun to watch the warframe community tear itself apart.

Edited September 9, 2020 by (PS4)Boise_State_star
forgot image

[RivaAurelius 555]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Boise_State_star said:

It's fun to watch the warframe community tear itself apart.

Grab your popcorn, it's gonna keep happening... Also eww, light mode *cries in dark mode user* 

[Proscriptor 802]

when the issue over helminth feeding costs is settled in the way of DE not substantially changing the costs (some minor tuning would be okay, but hardly worth the effort now, with people ranking helminth up en masse) in the next update or earlier, 

what you think is "happening" (nothing is happening but me disagreeing with you), will stop happening, as it won't be a current topic anymore. it will be a settled matter at that point and calls to nerf the costs won't be of any consequence 

[xcrimsonlegendx 1,347]

Shouldn't Protea's subsumed ability be grenade fan?

It was said that there would be no "signature" abilities, right? Well both her turret and dispenser are attached to her tool belt, I'd call those signature being as they're attached to her 3D model. Whereas grenade fan isn't. To be honest grenade fan was the only reason I made a second protea before the full list was revealed and is one of the only skills I wanted to transfer to another frame.

Edited September 9, 2020 by xcrimsonlegendx
Typo

[fr4gb4ll 951]

the helminth system is basically ok, but you sure should re-analyze some of the more rare resources or rather their amount-2-worth factors. the way it is now, looks like you never played the game like a normal player does - else you would know at once the worth of some resources are totally off-score...

as for the some of the exchangable abilities... well, i'm sure there are some people that will make use of every single one of them, but imo, there are some that had little use in at their original frame and still does so in any other one too. i understand that you won't consider every ability exchangeable, but the ones we get from some frames are not really worth the efford (i still will feed them all to helminth since i already re-build modt of them).

oh, also, please lower the 'digestion' time of helminth... the bugger can eat tons of resources in one gulb, more than half a dozen frames worth of them, so let the whole frame being digested in maybe 8 hours, please.

on a sidenote: i loved the 'interaction' with helminth when he/she/it tried to eat my kavat... an spit it out after a few seconds, with the kavat looking not amused ^^)    more of that please...

[CopperBezel 790]

I think I have 10 abilities I've subsumed and found a use for so far, including things that are basically a lateral move like Fire Blast replacing Thermal Sunder on Gauss so I can strip armor without expending battery at the cost of the big freeze. Molt and Pillage have made the biggest changes in my play (replacing Protea's 4 and Nova's 1 respectively.)

Bile is certainly the only secretion I've had to farm for, but since the reduced values seem to decrease with time, and I'm interacting with the Helminth less frequently now, I've got used to being able to occasionally throw some argon at it in between thermal sludge balls, since the feeding cost for either of those is something I can get together in 15 minutes of solo farming.

[Larsurus 2,212]

Railjack resources are at least 10 times too costly. Bile resources are also incredibly costly and many of them are very rare unless you've been grinding specific mission types non-stop for multiple weeks. Whoever came up with these numbers need to sit down and play the game without dev mode on.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Larsurus

[CopperBezel 790]

Is it my imagination or weird play pattern, or are Gallos Rods the single exception? The quantity seems entirely manageable there....

[vaarnaaarne 363]

On 2020-09-08 at 9:50 PM, (PS4)Boise_State_star said:

Bruh, it's available at mr 8...

 

21 hours ago, _Tormex_ said:

But... but it is though. MR 8 isn't that high. You could get there in a week. I know, I did.

MR is not really my concern there (MR15 would have been too much, MR8 is probably the sweet spot), but the resource costs (even besides Bile). Raising them would without a doubt put Helminth out of reach for newer players, and I am not entirely sure if it's alright for them and permissive of experimentation on their part right now. I think it's important for Helminth to be easily accessible to people because of what it brings to the game (and because it gives a positive encouragement loop to obtaining new standard warframes instead of going straight for Prime).

[CopperBezel 790]

I have to set it next to Focus and Arcanes, though, and consider that if this is the level of grind required for systems like this, it certainly seems easier to swallow when it's based on something we've been doing all along, as opposed to a new separate progression. It's effectively something you can't rush all at once but players who've already invested that level of grind already have.

[Proscriptor 802]

1 hour ago, CopperBezel said:

Is it my imagination or weird play pattern, or are Gallos Rods the single exception? The quantity seems entirely manageable there....

gallos rods and isos seem the best from rj resources