Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[_Tormex_]

3 hours ago, Vahenir said:

Something i can add that isn't related to resources: Why aren't there more defensive abilities in here?

A lot of squishy frames really need more survivability badly and this system could have solved it. However since there are very few defensive abilities that can be subsumed it doesn't. I'm pretty sure the best purely defensive ability you can get right now is Novas null star, but that requires negative range to work well. Pillage can work decently too by abusing the shield gate, but burns a lot of energy and may need negative duration to work well.

Other than those there are the pre-nerfed eclipse and defy along with elemental ward. I think that's all pure defense abilities, discounting heals which aren't going to help if you get one shot.

CC is pretty good at increasing survivability

[(XBOX)RAG is NAROK]

So while I am annoyed that Larva was nerfed and thus my Wisp Tentacle Witch themed build doesn't work, I do like the Helminth system and I do like many of the Helminth abilities, so I can forgive you. Of course, if you were to create a tentacle themed helminth ability, I would be very intrigued. 

Maybe a radial effect, that creates a circular section on the ground (with holographic tentacles moving about inside) that slow enemies that move through it and deal a slight amount of damage (perhaps the closer to the center of the circle the enemy is, the more damage they take). 

I also think it might be kind of cool if perhaps we received augment mods for the helminth powers. Perhaps once you've unlock the Helminth Segment, Daughter (since her story inventory is kind of meh) could have some dialogue saying that she and her brother have been working on a few projects and you can buy the augment mods from her with rep. That would be cool. 

Now I have found a bug with Resonator, where if you use it on some frames with their abilities it will keep you from using your weapons. 

[master_of_destiny]

It's now been long enough to take a look back at this system, and try to figure out what the heck it is.

 

Point 1, railjack resources are nuts.  Specifically, Fresnels are an insane cost per feeding.  I don't get why this is so high, only that you seem to really want people to rejoin railjack.  I don't think it is working.

 

Point 2, the flowers now bloom.  It's interesting....but the garden is literally climbing up the walls here.  I think maybe it'll be interesting when there isn't a frame being subsumed, but it's visual nuttiness now.

 

Point 3, this is a long grind, hiding behind the potential to burn through it all quickly.  After rank 3 I haven't needed to test out a single ability.  Subsume frame, replenish resources, wait 24 hours for the subsume and resources to return to their full value.  It's not fun.  It's not interesting.  It's also just a copy of the forma requirement for a daily login.  Looking forward to being done, so maybe I can afford to experiment.

 

Point 4, experimentation is not rewarded.  Let's say I wanted to apply a power that only used 20% bile.  I try it on 3 frames, and have used 60%.  I feed it the two reasonably priced bile resources, and I'm back to where I was.  Instead we've got stuff that's 40% resources....so you realistically get one try a day before stuff starts to be a problem.  I guess this isn't so much a quick iteration and fun system, but one where prices are high enough to penalize anything but calculated risks.  That's depressing.

 

Point 5, there are plenty of powers....but they don't compete well with each other.  Case in point Air Burst, Larva, and Ensnare.  All crowd control, but Larva had to be nerfed to not be utterly better than the other two.  This points toward potentially better power choices.  Hopefully new frames will be better supported.

 

Point 6, costing seems meta based.  If an ability is largely unused it can use common resources, but if it's used frequently it uses a lot of rarer ones.  That's....and interesting balance while we are in the subsume phase of everything.  At the same time, it's not exactly like this will be the case forever.  Maybe making these costs a bit higher for subsuming, but lower for application, can help to ease the issues with experimentation and make the rank-ups a bit more meaningful.

 

Point 7, ranking up is meaningless.  I'm working on infinite subsumes....and have like 20 available.  I stopped experimenting because of the costs.  Maybe instead of the rank-ups creating meaningless subsume caps we can get some functional benefits to replace them?  I'd be happy to have a means of using the Helminth to maybe lock out a power to boost stats, or even having the Helminth upgrade to decrease subsuming times.  The "rewards" for a subsume cap are entirely pointless when you rank through them so fast that you never have a concern about a cap.

 

 

Overall, this is still a system with huge flaws.  It tries to hide wait behind penalties, but there's no benefit to rushing.  There's no reason to iterate, because the costing is insane.  Moreover, there's no reason to do anything but meta building because finding novel approaches isn't really rewarded.  Hopefully there's some iteration on this to make it less of a slog, but until then it's just a novelty that has no real value.  That's a shame, to waste all that potential.

[DroopingPuppy]

Some parts needs ridiculous amount of resource to feed it once. Requires 400 for once was just a kidding. I have seen about 25000 resource, that is rare railjack(you don't know what is that, but it was on the game) resource, is required to feed it. Is it a right thing to do? I think not.

 

Also, can't we just switch the ability after injecting it? Everytime I want to change the config, I need to use the resource. It is weird. Can't we just choose to use which configuration will use the ability among the injected abilities freely?

 

 

[Frendh]

Personally I think subsuming and infusing should be expensive and time consuming. It is a straight up buff to the warframes. And warframes do NOT need to be buffed. Game is easy as is, even on steel path.

People who do not have time or the will to complete the Helminth should just refrain from doing so.  I am going to estimate that 5 or less subsumed warframes will give you a significant power up to your warframes. Just a matter of picking the correct ones for your play style.

Not saying the system has to stay the way it is. For instance I would not mind making subsuming more expensive and infusing cheaper.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

I am going to estimate that 5 or less subsumed warframes will give you a significant power up to your warframes. Just a matter of picking the correct ones for your play style.

As fair I can see (I'm almost rank 4) you need to subsume ~15 frames and probably inject ~1/2 of that 15. That's for getting max rank.

And if you want all Helminth abilities you want rank 9.

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

People who do not have time or the will to complete the Helminth should just refrain from doing so. 

It's MR8 requirement (heh) so it shouldn't require that much time/resources /sarcasm/
To be serious some people just want to fix their broken frames (not pun intended, I don't mean Xaku). It doesn't change power of your frame just fix its issues (subjective by an user). So you are saying that they shouldn't do a simple "fix" because it's too much "consuming"? Not sure how it's for MR8 but it should be fairly easy to subsume/inject some "easier" abilities. Some harder should require some work. I had to problem so far but I had many resources from normal maps so I don't know how it's exactly right now (what frames requires more work).

-------- Edit1

Quote

Personally I think subsuming and infusing should be expensive and time consuming. It is a straight up buff to the warframes. And warframes do NOT need to be buffed. Game is easy as is, even on steel path.

I think it should be time consuming but not because it's "buff" but because you want to check what frames needs what abilities.

------------- Edit2
I was thinking.... Yes, I'm serious. Could we have a slaughterhouse? You put frames that you want there, put some resources that frame needs for subsumation (they are deduced from your Helminth system) and when the Helmint finish "processing" one frame it should automatically start with another.

[Rin-senpai]

resources cost the most important thing to rework/fix

[Rin-senpai]

TBH, more adequate values (at least for me)

Oxides

Spoiler

 

Calx

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Biotics

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Synthetics

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Pheromones

Spoiler

 

Bile

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Sentient Appetite

Spoiler

 

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, Rin-senpai said:

TBH, more adequate values (at least for me)

Oxides

  Hide contents

 

Calx

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Biotics

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Synthetics

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Pheromones

  Hide contents

 

Bile

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Sentient Appetite

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[Proscriptor]

these proposed costs are disastrously low

200 cubic diodes when you get 1k in a single mission

25 gorgaricus spore is too much? that's silly, you just need to take a stroll around the map to pick some up

this is the blueprint of helminth annihilation

[Rin-senpai]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

these proposed costs are disastrously low

200 cubic diodes when you get 1k in a single mission

25 gorgaricus spore is too much? that's silly, you just need to take a stroll around the map to pick some up

this is the blueprint of helminth annihilation

strole on deimos, orb, eidolon then 2-3 mission on RJ, then some other missions, and you have no day - and where life? job? sleep?

[Proscriptor]

3 minutes ago, Rin-senpai said:

strole on deimos, orb, eidolon then 2-3 mission on RJ, then some other missions, and you have no day - and where life? job? sleep?

you are calling playing warframe no lifing

if you despise the game like you apparently do, the helminth system is not for you

[Rin-senpai]

Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

you are calling playing warframe no lifing

if you despise the game like you apparently do, the helminth system is not for you

Just... xD

[RivaAurelius]

1 minute ago, Rin-senpai said:

Just... xD

Trolls gonna troll XD 

[Proscriptor]

no, he, "rin-senpai" is a troll

he spits on all warframe players calling them no lifers while wanting things to fall in his lap

[Rin-senpai]

13 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

no, he, "rin-senpai" is a troll

he spits on all warframe players calling them no lifers while wanting things to fall in his lap

Im not said dat, but you ;)

[Proscriptor]

33 minutes ago, Rin-senpai said:

strole on deimos, orb, eidolon then 2-3 mission on RJ, then some other missions, and you have no day - and where life? job? sleep?

what you describe is called "playing warframe"

then you frame it in the classic not having a life trope

now listen, 

i have an amazing life 

and i have all the resources to feed helminth without any grinding

it's because i'm a "very experienced player"

if you want to feed helminth while maintaining the rest of your life being amazing too

there's a an ancient proverb to help you and guide you:

git gud

[BigWillBlue]

I was hoping that Banshee's Silence, when put on Ivara, would allow Ivara to silence weapons for use with Prowl. Enemies can't hear any weapons you use while Silence is active, but I guess the weapons are still technically "alarming" still. (Using an alarming weapon with Prowl disables invisibility while shooting)

This is a very specific case, but I think if Silence did make weapons technically "silent" it would allow for some fun synergy with Ivara.

[Haseo457]

Please, included in the description of Helmith ability "Empower" information that these 50% boost is calculated from the base (unmodded) value of target ability. Eventually also information that this 50% bonus cannot be modified by mods.

(of course if it was intended and is not a bug)

ps. 1 (also i put it here because for now i dont consider this as a bug, more like deficiencies in the description)

ps. 2 (if someone ask, i tested it on my Rhino and his Iron Skin and Roar get buffs based on unmodded values of his skills on rank 3)

[quxier]

2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

200 cubic diodes when you get 1k in a single mission

If you play RJ.... yeah, it's still on me.

[Proscriptor]

if you don't play railjack you'll have 0

but no, what he and some other cheapening-extremists want is to play one railjack mission (3-5 minutes) and have enough resources for 5-10 feeds

this does not represent the position of everyone who wants better value on rj resources, it's the most extreme position yet

as this issue is still boiling over and substantive discussions have died out, the positions are becoming more and more extreme now to the point of absurdity

  

On 2020-09-10 at 3:19 PM, BigWillBlue said:

I was hoping that Banshee's Silence, when put on Ivara, would allow Ivara to silence weapons for use with Prowl. Enemies can't hear any weapons you use while Silence is active, but I guess the weapons are still technically "alarming" still. (Using an alarming weapon with Prowl disables invisibility while shooting)

This is a very specific case, but I think if Silence did make weapons technically "silent" it would allow for some fun synergy with Ivara.

+1 to this. seems like a really necessary interaction

[RivaAurelius]

16 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if you don't play railjack you'll have 0

but no, what he and some cheapening-petitioners want is to play one railjack mission (3-5 minutes) and have enough resources for 5-10 feeds

Dude, I have done EVERYTHING that railjack has to offer. It is dead content now. You go in, you farm the best avionics for your railjack, you farm the best turrets, thrusters, shield generators, etc. and you max out your railjack. You complete the railjack star chart. After that? There is NOTHING left to do with railjack, because it is a content island. The only thing that got me back to railjack was nightwave, and once you complete nightwave, there is once again no reason to play railjack. Oh and by the way, it takes more than 5 minutes to get 1k fresnels, and you need a minimum of 1k fresnels for ONE FEED. Never even mind the other ridiculous costs, this is the best example. Oh and 30 excavators for ONE cryotic feed. You are full of it, buddy, I cannot take you seriously. We are not trying to "cheapen" this system, we are trying to make the costs reasonable across the board. 

 

Edit: To put it into some perspective, I would rather have to build and feed Helminth BUILT FORMA instead of the current resource balancing right now. We already have to feed him built warframes, so screw it, right? 

[Proscriptor]

18 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said:

Dude, I have done EVERYTHING that railjack has to offer. It is dead content now. You go in, you farm the best avionics for your railjack, you farm the best turrets, thrusters, shield generators, etc. and you max out your railjack. You complete the railjack star chart. After that? There is NOTHING left to do with railjack, because it is a content island. The only thing that got me back to railjack was nightwave, and once you complete nightwave, there is once again no reason to play railjack. Oh and by the way, it takes more than 5 minutes to get 1k fresnels, and you need a minimum of 1k fresnels for ONE FEED. Never even mind the other ridiculous costs, this is the best example. Oh and 30 excavators for ONE cryotic feed. You are full of it, buddy, I cannot take you seriously. We are not trying to "cheapen" this system, we are trying to make the costs reasonable across the board. 

 

Edit: To put it into some perspective, I would rather have to build and feed Helminth BUILT FORMA instead of the current resource balancing right now. We already have to feed him built warframes, so screw it, right? 

what does 30 excavators mean to me? i may never play excav again and i will have enough cryotic to infuse something on each one of my frames

it's because i'm a very experienced player

i played the game before helminth came along. that's what it means to be experienced

about railjack, stop maligning railjack. it's boring. show some positivity for a change

railjack is not "dead content" it's simply content.

i like speedrunning gian point and doing anomaly, it's a nice change of pace. and i'm not the only one

railjack will get new content in the future that will make it even better

[quxier]

40 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

if you don't play railjack you'll have 0

It drops from Eximus units afair. I have ~1k or ~11k. Not enough for feeding but it's still huge number. I wish I can get rid of it somehow because I won't play RJ.

[RivaAurelius]

31 minutes ago, Traubenzuckr said:

what does 30 excavators mean to me? i may never play excav again and i will have enough cryotic to infuse something on each one of my frames

it's because i'm a very experienced player

i played the game before helminth came along. that's what it means to be experienced

about railjack, stop maligning railjack. it's boring. show some positivity for a change

railjack is not "dead content" it's simply content.

i like speedrunning gian point and doing anomaly, it's a nice change of pace. and i'm not the only one

railjack will get new content in the future that will make it even better

I have been playing the game since Atlas was released. Not Atlas prime, Atlas. Don't come at me telling me what it means to be experienced. I have been here for literal years. The resource costs need to change. Just because some people have all the time in the world to no-life the game doesn't mean the average person can do the same. Just stop, dude. 

 

Edit: Again, some perspective. Your 270,000 cryoitic is enough for 90 cryotic feeds. Think about that for a second. Don't be a contrarian and ACTUALLY THINK. 

 

Edit 2: Excavators take 100 seconds, and with a properly coordinated squad, you could possibly do 3 excevators at a time. To get enough cryotic for ONE feed, you would need to farm for 16 minutes on average IF you have a properly coordinated squad.