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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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9 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said:

resource costs need to change. 

no-life the game 

you are a warframe hater and have no standing in this debate.

your starting point is that this is a "no-life game" and by extension label all more efficient players than yourself no lifers

helminth system is the game extending it's hand to you

it is saying:

grow.

be better.

be more efficient.

test your boundaries.

 

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Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

you are a warframe hater and have no standing in this debate.

your starting point is that this is a "no-life game" and by extension label all more efficient players than yourself no lifers

helminth system is the game extending it's hand to you

it is saying:

grow.

be better.

be more efficient.

test your boundaries.

 

And this is why myself and others cannot take you seriously. "Warframe hater", "No standing in this debate". How about responding to my actual point? How about recognising that I love this game and want it to survive? I have every right to a say in this conversation as you do. You're being elitist and snobby. 

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14 minutes ago, RivaAurelius said:

no-life the game

And this is why myself and others cannot take you seriously. "no-life the game". How about looking at what the game offers in a more positive light? How about recognising that it's possible to be good at the game and play it efficiently, and that calling that no lifing is offensive? Disparaging the game itself and dedicated players devalues your viewpoint. 

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1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

And this is why myself and others cannot take you seriously. "no-life the game". How about looking at what the game offers in a more positive light? How about recognising that it's possible to be good at the game and play it efficiently, and that calling that no lifing is offensive? Disparaging the game itself and dedicated players devalues your viewpoint. 

Other players and myself have the right to voice our greivances with POORLY IMPLEMENTED systems. The game is offering me a poorly implemented, half baked, poorly thought through system. I recognise it is possible to be good at the game and play it efficiently because I DO PLAY EFFICIENTLY. I farmed all of steel path in the first few days of its release. You are being ELITIST and SNOBBY. Done. With. You. 

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On 2020-09-10 at 5:05 PM, RivaAurelius said:

Other players and myself have the right to voice our greivances with POORLY IMPLEMENTED systems. The game is offering me a poorly implemented, half baked, poorly thought through system. I recognise it is possible to be good at the game and play it efficiently because I DO PLAY EFFICIENTLY. I farmed all of steel path in the first few days of its release. You are being ELITIST and SNOBBY. Done. With. You. 

i have my right to extend my support for the status quo and oppose change.

the systems aren't poorly implemented. they are excellent. 

if you want to be done with me just put me on the ignore list, but i will oppose helminth cheapening every step of the way using, be it coming from you or anyone else.

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1 minute ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i have my right to extend my support for the status quo and oppose change.

the systems aren't poorly implemented. they are excellent. 

if you want to be done with me just put me on the ignore list, but i will oppose helminth cheapening every step of the way using, be if it's coming from you or anyone else.

It is not cheapening, it is balancing it to be reasonable. The status quo is not always a good thing, and right now it certainly is a bad thing. Putting you on ignore now, bye bye. 

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1 minute ago, RivaAurelius said:

It is not cheapening, it is balancing it to be reasonable. The status quo is not always a good thing, and right now it certainly is a bad thing. Putting you on ignore now, bye bye. 

it's reasonable right now. 

because it's already reasonable, the status quo is good, and you want to make it unreasonably cheap.

players are already ranking up en masse. that speaks for itself.

do ignore me, but know that you can't shut off the truth from the world. you can only shut yourself out from the truth. 

2 minutes ago, (NSW)SongOfTheSea said:

I could be wrong but some of the resources needed to produce "bile" does not make much sense, seems like fish parts and what not would also be useful or something along those lines.

fish parts are problematic as they are very numerous while also being similar among themselves, mostly being split in two categories: (1) synthetic/manufactured parts/devices, (2) organic parts

that means that it would be hard to split them up over all of the helminth secretion categories, every one of which denotes a specific type of material (oxides = metals etc.)

 

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Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

it's reasonable right now. 

because it's already reasonable, the status quo is good, and you want to make it unreasonably cheap.

players are already ranking up en masse. that speaks for itself.

do ignore me, but know that you can't shut off the truth from the world. you can only shut yourself out from the truth. 

fish parts are problematic as they are very numerous while also being similar among themselves, mostly being split in two categories: (1) synthetic/manufactured parts/devices, (2) organic parts

that means that it would be hard to split them up over all of the helminth secretion categories, every one of which denotes a specific type of material (oxides = metals etc.)

 

You are hardly a bastion of truth. By shutting you out, I am cutting out some of the lies and fake news. Have fun being ignored by reasonable people. 

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active focus farming is a much more no-life thing than playing all the different activities and game modes giving you all the different resources for helminth.

you don't hear players clamoring for making focus cheaper anymore. 

it's old.

people have done the focus farm or are still doing it and everything is fine. they can take it easy, they can grind it, it's all a personal choice

likewise, the helminth feeding cost issue is already largely old. people have ranked it up, they are ranking it up, you can call them "no lifers" or you can respect their dedication and ambition. it doesn't matter. the status quo is functioning. 

On 2020-09-10 at 5:31 PM, (PS4)Git_Gud_Mr_Shrek said:

No you are not

that's fine, thank you

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Just now, Traubenzuckr said:

active focus farming is a much more no-life thing than playing all the different activities and game modes giving you all the different resources for helminth.

you don't hear players clamoring for making focus cheaper anymore. 

it's old.

people have done the helminth, or are just doing it and everything is fine. they can take it easy, they can grind it, it's all a personal choice

likewise, the helminth feeding cost issue is already largely old. people have ranked it up, they are ranking it up, you can call them "no lifers" or you can respect their dedication and ambition. it doesn't matter. the status quo is functioning. 

that's fine, thank you

Focus farming doesn't eat an unimaginably large amount of resources

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farming resources for helminth doesn't eat any resources, what do you mean? 

turn on lith fissure and grind up some prime loot and cryotic. that costs you nothing but lith relics.

- - -

but i understand what you mean, you just didn't get the analogy

focus upgrading costs an inordinate amount of a resource called focus.

some focus nodes cost 1 million to unlock

focus is the resource which you farm, and then you use the resource for the focus tree

just as you would farm plastids and use them for the helminth (don't farm plastids, you get them along the way)

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They need to move all juggernaut parts to bile, and maybe salvage. Bile as it is, is effectively untenable. While every other resource has common items that any reasonable player will likely have in excess, bile has effectively nothing.

 

Railjack components are 100x the cost they should be, and the absence of fish, mining, and broken resources no longer in use like orokin ciphers ought to be addressed.

At this point i am basically waiting on any news from DE to continue engaging with helminth. Considering the last stream i saw where Rebecca her self noted just how bad bile was and how bad railjack resource costs are, as well as the nearly universal census about Helminth resource costs. 

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On 2020-09-10 at 5:39 PM, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

They need to move all juggernaut parts to bile, and maybe salvage. Bile as it is, is effectively untenable. While every other resource has common items that any reasonable player will likely have in excess, bile has effectively nothing.

 

Railjack components are 100x the cost they should be, and the absence of fish, mining, and broken resources no longer in use like orokin ciphers ought to be addressed.

At this point i am basically waiting on any news from DE to continue engaging with helminth. Considering the last stream i saw where Rebecca her self noted just how bad bile was and how bad railjack resource costs are, as well as the nearly universal census about Helminth resource costs. 

bile has around 5 good resources for feeding, counting isos (isos are pretty good actually)

8 resources are viable

just fresnels are pretty non-viable (still some players had 3k fresnels and used them, why not)

i explain that here: 

 

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The defenses of bile costs are out of touch with reality and their difficulty tier list is just completely off and seemingly based on nothing but their personal stockpile or opinion with no thought to the actual difference in time investment from one resource to the other. 

IE: Cryotic takes 30 excavators for one turn in. Yet one of the only defenders of bile costs considers that the most trivial while rating argon crystals at a harder level when that's the easiest turn in. It takes a few minutes, maybe 5 if you're unlucky to farm the argon crystals for 1 turn in while taking over half an hour of farming for a single cryotic turn in. Even if you want to talk about boosters, you'd cut the time in half for 1 turn in of cryotic while getting two+ turn ins worth of argon crystals at still 1/3rd or less the same farming time. It's currently balanced for the handful of people sitting on 100k+ that will never have anything else to do with it (or the poor souls that don't realize the disparity and just throw everything they have into the pit without thinking about it). The design currently amounts to "please throw dozens of hours of past farming into this pit and don't think about the comparative time-investment vs. reward or consider whatever content we may add in the future that will also need that resource."

But anyway...

The real issue overall is that you created a system you advertised as this interesting avenue for experimentation and trying out all these possible combinations while then adding prohibitive costs. The costs discourage you from experimenting. Instead you'll just think about this mostly weak list of abilities and then look at the cost it would take to even try them out and just laugh and not bother using anything but what's already considered a meta ability for that frame. 

You wanted to dry up the resource stockpiles of even veteran players for whatever reason, but the carrot you put on the stick of what you intended to be this endless resource sink is rotten. As it is, there will be limited experimentation for most people and 99% of it will be thousands of people all replacing the exact same ability with the exact same infused ability. If they really want experimentation, infusion costs need to be less prohibitive and we need to buff a number of lackluster abilities in the list. 

TLDR: less prohibitive infusion costs = more experimentation, more interesting and competitive infusion options (aka buff the weak choices) = more experimentation

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9 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

The defenses of bile costs are out of touch with reality and their difficulty tier list is just completely off and seemingly based on nothing but their personal stockpile or opinion with no thought to the actual difference in time investment from one resource to the other. 

IE: Cryotic takes 30 excavators for one turn in. Yet one of the only defenders of bile costs considers that the most trivial while rating argon crystals at a harder level when that's the easiest turn in. It takes a few minutes, maybe 5 if you're unlucky to farm the argon crystals for 1 turn in while taking over half an hour of farming for a single cryotic turn in. Even if you want to talk about boosters, you'd cut the time in half for 1 turn in of cryotic while getting two+ turn ins worth of argon crystals at still 1/3rd or less the same farming time. It's currently balanced for the handful of people sitting on 100k+ that will never have anything else to do with it (or the poor souls that don't realize the disparity and just throw everything they have into the pit without thinking about it). The design currently amounts to "please throw dozens of hours of past farming into this pit and don't think about the comparative time-investment vs. reward or consider whatever content we may add in the future that will also need that resource."

But anyway...

The real issue overall is that you created a system you advertised as this interesting avenue for experimentation and trying out all these possible combinations while then adding prohibitive costs. The costs discourage you from experimenting. Instead you'll just think about this mostly weak list of abilities and then look at the cost it would take to even try them out and just laugh and not bother using anything but what's already considered a meta ability for that frame. 

You wanted to dry up the resource stockpiles of even veteran players for whatever reason, but the carrot you put on the stick of what you intended to be this endless resource sink is rotten. As it is, there will be limited experimentation for most people and 99% of it will be thousands of people all replacing the exact same ability with the exact same infused ability. If they really want experimentation, infusion costs need to be less prohibitive and we need to buff a number of lackluster abilities in the list. 

TLDR: less prohibitive infusion costs = more experimentation, more interesting and competitive infusion options (aka buff the weak choices) = more experimentation

Could not have said it better myself. 

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On 2020-09-10 at 9:17 PM, Borg1611 said:

The defenses of bile costs are out of touch with reality and their difficulty tier list is just completely off and seemingly based on nothing but their personal stockpile or opinion with no thought to the actual difference in time investment from one resource to the other. 

...

here is my revised defense of bile costs

bile resources, sorted by cost efficiency for a relatively veteran player in 2020 (played actively for 1 year at least)

primary criterion is how big is a veteran player's stockpile (because helminth is advertised as a resource sink)

secondary criterion is ease of obtaining a new quantity of the resource

Tier 1, Very Efficient - player has a large stockpile; easy to obtain at any time (extremely easy i should say)

  • 40 Morphics (you get it on the side from 4 planets)
  • 3 Argon Crystal (you get it on the side while playing any Void mission)

Tier 2, Efficient - player has a large stockpile; hard to obtain at any time

  • 3000 Cryotic (you get it on the side while doing excav fissures) ... if you don't have a lot of cryotic, you're not a veteran player; by a lot i mean around 50k (fifty thousand), and a built Sibear

Tier 3, Efficient - player has a medium stockpile; easy to obtain at any time

  • 50 Thermal Sludge (you get it on the side while doing Orb Vallis)

Tier 4, Less Efficient - player has a medium stockpile; easy/medium hard to obtain, but during event only

  • 5 Diluted Thermia (you don't get it on the side, but you probably accumulated a surplus while doing the event)

Tier 5, Less Efficient - player has a medium-small stockpile; easy-medium hard to obtain at any time

  • 400 Isos (you get it on the side while playing railjack, but not so much from speedrunning)
  • 15,000 Copernics (you get it on the side while speedrunning gian point)

Tier 6, Inefficient - player has a small stockpile; medium/hard to obtain at any time

  • 10 Somatic Fibers (you don't get it on the side)

Tier 7, Very Inefficient - player has a small/very small stockpile; extremely hard to obtain at any time (impossible unless farmed over a long period)

  • 1000 Fresnels (you get it on the side in tiny quantities)

- - -

when i see the above situation i see a perfectly reasonable design direction: make some resources a better value than others, and let players figure out which is which

what people want is every resource to be equally cost efficient

they want "balance" among resources 

but that is not game balance, that is a trivialization of the system

if every resource is equally cost efficient, you can storm through the helminth like it's nothing

this way, you can still do it based on the most efficient resources, and you can boost the process by using the less efficient ones, but not by very much

this is good for the game. storming through helminth is bad for the game

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I like my amp. It would have never been worth the farming that it used to take in Plains of Eidolon, but I used Little Duck and the Exploiter and it was fine. 

 

So, did anyone ever actually run into the subsume limits? My Helminth hit rank 10 around the time I fed it frame No. 12, and I never gamed the ranking by adding and removing the same ability for experience, just infused the abilities where I wanted them when I got them available, which means maybe 20 infusions total. 

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