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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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I'm sure other people have brought this up before, but I'd really like to be able to overwrite two separate frame abilities with the same helminth ability across two configs.
I don't particularly care how the system is changed to facilitate this, ideally it would just be an option as soon as I infuse ("What ability do you want to overwrite on A, What ability do you want to overwrite on config B" etc.) but if I'm forced to infuse multiple times, so be it.

Example:
I want to try out Marked for Death on a warframe. I'm really not sure which ability I want to swap out for it because they're all arguable. Right now, i'd need three copies of the frame to experiment with three possible swaps. Because right now, as soon as an ability is infused, I can't infuse that ability again unless I remove the first infusion from the frame. Even if it's only in one config, even if there are other uninfused configs.

Ideally, this would change so that I could (let's say I'm using Ash) replace Shuriken with M4D on config A, replace Smoke Screen with M4D on config B, and replace Teleport with M4D on config C, all as part of paying the first infuse cost. We're already allowed to do multiple configs in one go, why not let us vary the ability that gets replaced?

What would make this even better is, after I've experimented with those options, I could go back to Helminth and remove one or two of the infusions to free up space for future infusions on my config slots. To continue with Ash, let's say I end up preferring Config B where i've infused M4D over Smoke Screen: It would be great if I could simply turn off the infusion on the A and C configs rather than needing to remove all infusions entirely and have to redo it for B alone.

Hope this makes sense, and I hope that this functionality is considered.

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2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

i don't respect solo players

if you want to have success you need to be social

that's a lesson that warframe teaches us

and very experienced players know this lesson

Not sure if trolling or just stupid. Well... without "solo players" I won't talk with you across the globe... but sure, skip this add. Goodnight.

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I tried.

I really did.

I have at this point 209 Scint, 273 casings, 95 engines, 99 pods, At least a dozen of each weapon part.

But no golden Necramech Trusters, Seismic Wave nor Streamline. Not a single one of them.                                           And some of the time i even had mod drop chance boosters on me.

At this point i'll give up on them, And since the vaults is the only mission to obtain them, it killed the mood to go there one more time. You increased that even more for future players by placing the other Necramods at Loid.

How so? You get the the more common mods at Loids, and the the real rare, which you probably do not get, those afford way more grinding. On that path you would get the more common mods anyway. So there is nothing, absolutely nothing between you and those 0.201% drop chance mods. Even if you are good and only after those mods, you get one chance every 8-10 minutes, depending on the tier. There is nothing else to get from this mission. No skin, no color, no variation, no surprise, no motivation.

After awhile you feel empty doing this.

This sucks.

Edited by kazenioware
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I'm curious if there was any change to argon crystal drop chances in the void in any of the hotfixes since Deimos came out. 

When it first came out I felt like it was easily getting multiples almost every capture I did when I would go get some for the helminth and now I don't really. I'm not sure if the steel path booster is meant to apply to breaking crates and what not but it doesn't seem like there's any difference between normal and steel path when hunting for them. I thought the booster was effectively just a normal resource drop chance booster so I would think breaking crates to farm crystals in steel path would be more effective than in normal mode but if it does apply it isn't noticeable. 

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20 minutes ago, Borg1611 said:

I'm curious if there was any change to argon crystal drop chances in the void in any of the hotfixes since Deimos came out. 

When it first came out I felt like it was easily getting multiples almost every capture I did when I would go get some for the helminth and now I don't really. I'm not sure if the steel path booster is meant to apply to breaking crates and what not but it doesn't seem like there's any difference between normal and steel path when hunting for them. I thought the booster was effectively just a normal resource drop chance booster so I would think breaking crates to farm crystals in steel path would be more effective than in normal mode but if it does apply it isn't noticeable. 

It's RNG. You can go with Nekros + smeeta and got nothing. And you can just randomly and get few argons doing nothing. My RNG is set to 3 runs = 3 argons, first missions = no argon.

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So, it's time to quantify.  Boy, do I love spreadsheets.  If anyone wants the specific one I'm using please feel free to DM me, and I'll arrange to send you the .xlsx format one so you can do your own checking (or planning).

 

Now, what will it cost me to subsume every single frame?

1810 Oxides - 8 potential sources

1655 Calx - 9 potential sources

1566 Biotics - 18 potential sources

1117 Synthetics - 10 potential sources

1525 Pheremones - 11 potential sources

1647 Bile - 9 potential sources

 

Let's talk about that costing.  The three problem children are Oxides, Calx, and Bile for having the least sources.  Let's peel back the onion farther. 

Oxides have Alloy Plate, Ferrite, and Salvage.  3 of the most common resources in the game.  The other resources are rarer....but this effectively means the grind for oxides will not be an issue.  No complaints here.

Calx have Rubedo, Lucent Teroglobes, Iradite, and Grokdrul.  Rubedo has been in the game forever, and is uncommon.  The other three resources are common drops on Cetus and Deimos.  They're not exactly something fun to farm, but they can easily be gotten.  The quantities are 30 and 50 units, so it's about a single circuit around the open world to get this without and boosters.

Bile.....It's the 3rd most costly resource.  It has the second least sources.  Amongst these sources is 3 railjack functional exclusives, a limited time mission drop, a single node drop source, and the only vanishing resource in the game.  Yeah, Bile is not a well structured thing.

 

How about applying those abilities to frames?  Well, I created a spreadsheet to allow you to calculate.  It pulls the costs, allows you to select which slots get which power, and it's a huge mess.  It'll only be useful for the person who makes it...so I'm not giving out any results.  What I can provide is the results of each power applied to one frame.  That's: 

568 Oxides, 679 Calx, 762 Biotics, 770 Synthetics, 939 Pheremones, and 743 Bile.  

Of note, Pheremones are hugely skewed to Deimos resources.  Bile is a close #4 on costing, and Biotics and Synthetics are insanely populous and thus surprisingly cheap.

 

 

 

What are the quick and dirty conclusions?

Move Severed Bile Sac into the Bile category, and vacate it from the Pheremones category.

Alter the cost of Fresnels, Cryotic, Bracoids, and Mutagen Samples.  All of them are surprisingly high.  There are others which need review, but these are just silly.  30 excavators, literally hundreds of drops of a rare resource, and forcing a return to the less than half finished railjack system is not an ideal way to make people desire coming back.

Lower the cost of sentient resources.  75 intact cores to go from 3% to 15%is just silly.  There's literally no reason to engage with this system.  

Decrease the cost of applying abilities.  It seems like this was a crap shoot, trying to balance relative resource scarcity and cost.  The problem is the cost is between 85 (Saryn's Molt) and 126 (Rhino's Roar).  What?  Airburst (94) is more expensive than Molt?  If the abilities cost between 40 and 60 total resources we might be able to iterate and experiment.  Right now I get:

1 Roar - 77% Bile

1 Dispensary - 60% Bile

1 Defy - 62% Calx

1 Smite - 80% Biotics

1 Larva - 80% Oxides

etc... 

When any one resource costs that much you really cannot iterate.  It's prohibitively expensive, and makes the whole system pointless.  Anything that isn't immediately insanely better than what you already had is bad by virtue of killing any ability to test.  If I have to apply Larva after testing Ensnare, Airburst, and Resonator (all CC) I'll have spent 194 oxides (80*2 and 34).  That's insane. 

 

 

If it isn't clear here...the Helminth system is a huge mathematical flop.  It's grind, on grind, on grind.  The only fix that we can do is not engage....because it's pointless.  4/10 of the ranks are pointless (unlock subsume, 10 slots, 20 slots, unlimited).  The remaining abilities rely so much on subsuming that to have anything to work with means you'll be resource starved until everything is subsumed.  The reliance of the Helminth unique abilities on Bile makes things even more dicey to start with.  This all adds up to not having fun.

I won't touch on the bugs....but come on.  These releases are somehow getting worse.  Before the Deimos release and preparation release I hadn't experienced a crash in more than 18 months.  Slow downs, but never a hard crash.  Since this release it's about once per 10 play hours.  It's only that low because I shutdown the program when pictures start to not load (IE go to the forge and the items have no thumbnail).  If I counted my shutdowns that's be more like once every 5 hours.  

Rounding all of this out...why in hades is this a system for new players?  I'd like to cite that during an interview members of your own team said that giving new players everything was overwhelming to new players.  Despite this, the Helminth is accessible with less than 10% of the game's content completed.  Come on?

 

 

Top all of this off with a frankly insulting developer stream....and I'm hoping that the balance group was on a non-permanent vacation.  One that was not them looking for work elsewhere, given the horrid state of this misfire of a release.  I know I'd be searching around if this was attached to me professionally...and definitely if the response to my player base from my team was "we'll review it eventually."  Cue the "Primed Soon" meme.  The one wheeled out when nothing is going to get done, because this is going to be another thing that dies before it has real value.

I'm looking forward to the eventual ability to purchase abilities from the Helminth....and the subsequent point where this game just isn't worth having hope.  There's nothing here that indicates this won't be a cash grab, especially considering the already present pay to subsume option.  It being "against your initial choice" isn't worth noting considering all the painful back-tracking this system has already endured.  

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12 hours ago, master_of_destiny said:

So, it's time to quantify.  Boy, do I love spreadsheets.  If anyone wants the specific one I'm using please feel free to DM me, and I'll arrange to send you the .xlsx format one so you can do your own checking (or planning).

 

Now, what will it cost me to subsume every single frame?

1810 Oxides - 8 potential sources

1655 Calx - 9 potential sources

1566 Biotics - 18 potential sources

1117 Synthetics - 10 potential sources

1525 Pheremones - 11 potential sources

1647 Bile - 9 potential sources

 

Let's talk about that costing.  The three problem children are Oxides, Calx, and Bile for having the least sources.  Let's peel back the onion farther. 

Oxides have Alloy Plate, Ferrite, and Salvage.  3 of the most common resources in the game.  The other resources are rarer....but this effectively means the grind for oxides will not be an issue.  No complaints here.

Calx have Rubedo, Lucent Teroglobes, Iradite, and Grokdrul.  Rubedo has been in the game forever, and is uncommon.  The other three resources are common drops on Cetus and Deimos.  They're not exactly something fun to farm, but they can easily be gotten.  The quantities are 30 and 50 units, so it's about a single circuit around the open world to get this without and boosters.

Bile.....It's the 3rd most costly resource.  It has the second least sources.  Amongst these sources is 3 railjack functional exclusives, a limited time mission drop, a single node drop source, and the only vanishing resource in the game.  Yeah, Bile is not a well structured thing.

 

How about applying those abilities to frames?  Well, I created a spreadsheet to allow you to calculate.  It pulls the costs, allows you to select which slots get which power, and it's a huge mess.  It'll only be useful for the person who makes it...so I'm not giving out any results.  What I can provide is the results of each power applied to one frame.  That's: 

568 Oxides, 679 Calx, 762 Biotics, 770 Synthetics, 939 Pheremones, and 743 Bile.  

Of note, Pheremones are hugely skewed to Deimos resources.  Bile is a close #4 on costing, and Biotics and Synthetics are insanely populous and thus surprisingly cheap.

 

 

 

What are the quick and dirty conclusions?

Move Severed Bile Sac into the Bile category, and vacate it from the Pheremones category.

Alter the cost of Fresnels, Cryotic, Bracoids, and Mutagen Samples.  All of them are surprisingly high.  There are others which need review, but these are just silly.  30 excavators, literally hundreds of drops of a rare resource, and forcing a return to the less than half finished railjack system is not an ideal way to make people desire coming back.

Lower the cost of sentient resources.  75 intact cores to go from 3% to 15%is just silly.  There's literally no reason to engage with this system.  

Decrease the cost of applying abilities.  It seems like this was a crap shoot, trying to balance relative resource scarcity and cost.  The problem is the cost is between 85 (Saryn's Molt) and 126 (Rhino's Roar).  What?  Airburst (94) is more expensive than Molt?  If the abilities cost between 40 and 60 total resources we might be able to iterate and experiment.  Right now I get:

1 Roar - 77% Bile

1 Dispensary - 60% Bile

1 Defy - 62% Calx

1 Smite - 80% Biotics

1 Larva - 80% Oxides

etc... 

When any one resource costs that much you really cannot iterate.  It's prohibitively expensive, and makes the whole system pointless.  Anything that isn't immediately insanely better than what you already had is bad by virtue of killing any ability to test.  If I have to apply Larva after testing Ensnare, Airburst, and Resonator (all CC) I'll have spent 194 oxides (80*2 and 34).  That's insane. 

 

 

If it isn't clear here...the Helminth system is a huge mathematical flop.  It's grind, on grind, on grind.  The only fix that we can do is not engage....because it's pointless.  4/10 of the ranks are pointless (unlock subsume, 10 slots, 20 slots, unlimited).  The remaining abilities rely so much on subsuming that to have anything to work with means you'll be resource starved until everything is subsumed.  The reliance of the Helminth unique abilities on Bile makes things even more dicey to start with.  This all adds up to not having fun.

I won't touch on the bugs....but come on.  These releases are somehow getting worse.  Before the Deimos release and preparation release I hadn't experienced a crash in more than 18 months.  Slow downs, but never a hard crash.  Since this release it's about once per 10 play hours.  It's only that low because I shutdown the program when pictures start to not load (IE go to the forge and the items have no thumbnail).  If I counted my shutdowns that's be more like once every 5 hours.  

Rounding all of this out...why in hades is this a system for new players?  I'd like to cite that during an interview members of your own team said that giving new players everything was overwhelming to new players.  Despite this, the Helminth is accessible with less than 10% of the game's content completed.  Come on?

 

 

Top all of this off with a frankly insulting developer stream....and I'm hoping that the balance group was on a non-permanent vacation.  One that was not them looking for work elsewhere, given the horrid state of this misfire of a release.  I know I'd be searching around if this was attached to me professionally...and definitely if the response to my player base from my team was "we'll review it eventually."  Cue the "Primed Soon" meme.  The one wheeled out when nothing is going to get done, because this is going to be another thing that dies before it has real value.

I'm looking forward to the eventual ability to purchase abilities from the Helminth....and the subsequent point where this game just isn't worth having hope.  There's nothing here that indicates this won't be a cash grab, especially considering the already present pay to subsume option.  It being "against your initial choice" isn't worth noting considering all the painful back-tracking this system has already endured.  

Honestly I think there's an even simpler solution:  just. Get rid of 3 of the weird categories. Move their resources to the remaining three. Helminth was sold to us as kind of a universal resource garbage can that gave us SOMETHING for our trillions of #*!%in nano spores, alloy plates etc etc.

 

But because of how the desired vs undisered items work... im never gonna be able to dump any sizable amount of my common resources and at the same time my ROBUST amount of rare resources has been comparatively depleted in the extreme. And everything about bile makes it so clear its a progression dam and very much on purpose too. I've played a respectable amount of railjack and 1k fresnals can #*!% right off. Asking for 1k of an uncommon drop that drops in low double digit values is just scuffed outright. 

 

There really isn't a reason for 6 secretions. It should be streamlined into three with clear values for each. Oh you wanna throw cc ability on? Takes 80% of A, 35% of b bla bla basically  exactly how it works now. But made easier to budget. I shouldn't have to manually check if I have the resources handy to infuse 2-3 different abilities that serve the same approximate function.

 

And there's more that can be done! Like infusing augments that'd be cool! Or feeding him relics in exchange for traces. Or even a specific thing that can be used to further empower #*!%ing amps idk but if helminth is supposed to be "end game content" then it needs to be something that end game players can realistically utilize without an insane amount of additional grind! 

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With helminth seg installed, sat in the chair with saryn prime. The helminth display screen bugged (no icons whatsoever) then went to change frame and clicking on arsenal bugged the game totally (eternal "please wait")... had to force quit.

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Thoughts on resources used to feed the Helminth:

1) Require 90% less feed cost for railjack resources (each per feed) - with the same percentage increase gained 
2) Make feed cost of Diluted Thermia: 1 ea   [this is an event resource; an event that no one really plays after they get Vandal (this could change that)]
3) Add Bile Sacks to the Bile section 
4) Make feed cost of Argon Crystals:  2 ea 
3) Add Bile Sacks to the Bile section 
5) Add some other (more easily acquired) resource to the Bile section
6) Change feed cost for Cyrotic to 10,000 instead of 20,000 [lots of players have cyrotic, but no one is really mining more since extractors get used far less after mid-game]
 

This video lays out many good points:

 

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On 2020-09-25 at 12:15 PM, (PS4)Spider_Enigma said:

the names of the categories dont match the items in them for starters

they do

  

On 2020-09-25 at 1:36 PM, (PS4)cranberry_hunter said:

Thoughts on resources used to feed the Helminth:

1) Require 90% less feed cost for railjack resources (each per feed) - with the same percentage increase gained 
2) Make feed cost of Diluted Thermia: 1 ea   [this is an event resource; an event that no one really plays after they get Vandal (this could change that)]
3) Add Bile Sacks to the Bile section 
4) Make feed cost of Argon Crystals:  2 ea 
3) Add Bile Sacks to the Bile section 
5) Add some other (more easily acquired) resource to the Bile section
6) Change feed cost for Cyrotic to 10,000 instead of 20,000 [lots of players have cyrotic, but no one is really mining more since extractors get used far less after mid-game]

1) don't, that makes no sense, and it will exacerbate the problem of railjack repetitiveness as people will feel forced to play it (they aren't currently incentivised enough to play it if they don't like it, and that's good; what's needed instead is more and better railjack content to attract people organically)

2) don't, you can make 6 thermia in about 20 minutes with a booster, and that's acceptable

3) that makes 0 sense; bile sacs are an infested-based resource and go in the infested-based resource category (Pheromones)

  • let's use some common world logic here: the helminth eats the bile sacs, and then produces bile of it's own, it doesn't somehow repurpose the bile from the juggernaut's bile sacs (is there even bile in them? maybe they're ruptured or the juggernaut's bile just oozed out? maybe the point is in the sac tissue itself?) and inject it into his own "gallbladder", rather it eats the bile and digests it, thereby destroying it (it's no longer bile of any kind), and converts it to nutrients it needs for pheromones, because it's an organic, infested-based, resource, and that's what's needed to secrete pheromones
  • for the helminth to secrete bile it needs various non-organic resources, such as chemical waste, reactive chemicals and similar substances
  • the system is designed this way and it makes sense; by doing what you propose it would be conceptually damaged and just made uglier; it would be a terrible scar on the flavor of the helminth system

4) ridiculous, sorry

5) this could be done, but it would have to fit with other resources (unlike bile sacs)

6) cryotic cost is 3000 not 20000

Edited by Proscriptor
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Helminth UI

Can we please have the Subsume button easily available? For instance having the button always in the top left. As it is now I have to scroll down and actively search for it.  And typing "Sub" into search field gives you nothing.

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2 hours ago, Traubenzuckr said:

Nav Coordinates x 50

Ha! I got the feeling that I shouldn't sell it.

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Can we please have the Subsume button easily available? For instance having the button always in the top left. As it is now I have to scroll down and actively search for it.  And typing "Sub" into search field gives you nothing.

It's under incomplete tab, first on the left.

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On 2020-08-30 at 11:15 PM, Fenrir121 said:

Master's Summons: Are you serious that it doesn't resurrect dead companions? You're replacing a warframe ability with this one, I can't understand why anyone would use it if that remains the case. There's 102 different ways to heal a companion and none to bring it back after death more than maybe once.

I heard it actually did revive companions. Just not sentinels.

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On 2020-09-25 at 10:22 PM, Traubenzuckr said:

they do

  

1) don't, that makes no sense, and it will exacerbate the problem of railjack repetitiveness as people will feel forced to play it (they aren't currently incentivised enough to play it if they don't like it, and that's good; what's needed instead is more and better railjack content to attract people organically)

2) don't, you can make 6 thermia in about 20 minutes with a booster, and that's acceptable

3) that makes 0 sense; bile sacs are an infested-based resource and go in the infested-based resource category (Pheromones)

  • let's use some common world logic here: the helminth eats the bile sacs, and then produces bile of it's own, it doesn't somehow repurpose the bile from the juggernaut's bile sacs (is there even bile in them? maybe they're ruptured or the juggernaut's bile just oozed out? maybe the point is in the sac tissue itself?) and inject it into his own "gallbladder", rather it eats the bile and digests it, thereby destroying it (it's no longer bile of any kind), and converts it to nutrients it needs for pheromones, because it's an organic, infested-based, resource, and that's what's needed to secrete pheromones
  • for the helminth to secrete bile it needs various non-organic resources, such as chemical waste, reactive chemicals and similar substances
  • the system is designed this way and it makes sense; by doing what you propose it would be conceptually damaged and just made uglier; it would be a terrible scar on the flavor of the helminth system

4) ridiculous, sorry

5) this could be done, but it would have to fit with other resources (unlike bile sacs)

6) cryotic cost is 3000 not 20000

you can make 6 thermia in about 20 minutes with a booster, and that's acceptable

 

acceptable? please do not make me laugh, look at the other resources needed for bile (other than cryotic BS or railjack stuff), before saying its acceptable.

---

bruh.. have you failed maths??

Please do the comparison, and stop trying to defend that BS amount of cryotics and thermia needed for a single feed. Look at thermal sludge, look at argon crystal.....

other players have already slapped those hard-cold facts to your face, yet you failed to realize what's wrong...zzzz

you could have done better things, with those time you wasted on excavation (like getting a vanilla Trinity from Hades, Pluto, or getting vanilla Equinox from Tyl Regor), you can even farm standing in plains of eidolon capturing animals and buy yourself some zaws

Edited by deyuaru
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Please add Synthetic Eidolon Shards and Eidolon shards (particularly the normal variant) to Helminth's Sentient appetite?

I mean, the normal shards do nothing outside of Paracesis and ranking Quills. And Synthetic Eidolon Shards are so rare while also offering so little focus (5000) as to be almost completely negligible. By comparison, 20 minutes in ESO can earn you between 100k and 200k focus. Synthetic Eidolon Shards rarely drop as rewards in ESO and offer only 5000 focus? Like who cares about 5000 focus? It's 2.5-5% of what you can earn in ESO by itself (and it's very rare too). I'd rather feed these to Helminth.

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On 2020-09-26 at 6:45 PM, deyuaru said:

you can make 6 thermia in about 20 minutes with a booster, and that's acceptable

 

acceptable? please do not make me laugh, look at the other resources needed for bile (other than cryotic BS or railjack stuff), before saying its acceptable.

---

bruh.. have you failed maths??

Please do the comparison, and stop trying to defend that BS amount of cryotics and thermia needed for a single feed. Look at thermal sludge, look at argon crystal.....

other players have already slapped those hard-cold facts to your face, yet you failed to realize what's wrong...zzzz

you could have done better things, with those time you wasted on excavation (like getting a vanilla Trinity from Hades, Pluto, or getting vanilla Equinox from Tyl Regor), you can even farm standing in plains of eidolon capturing animals and buy yourself some zaws

i'm not a "bruh" to you, better show some respect

and better don't talk about anything being slapped on my face or we are going to have problems

edit: regardless, i see that your post is from before the bile update. your anti-cryotic and anti-thermia and bile-sacs-go-in-bile brigade has been soundly defeated in the previous discussions. you will never see these irrational changs. 

also the "additional zero" argument has been sunk by the latest update. the cost decrease wasn't tenfold

Edited by Proscriptor
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So I found a new resource I'd like to be able to feed to Helminth. Dirac, anyone? There's only a limited amount of the stuff you can use but you HAVE to keep scrapping wreckage or you can't fly at all. So much Dirac...

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