Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[tennomantra]

4 minutes ago, Loec61 said:

Is there a way to rename the Helminth? Caues if not i d suggest adding that into the game. I accidentally missclicked and now the name of my helminth is just "Helminth".

When you enter room, console is on your left.

 

[tennomantra]

I don't think there is any notification when subsuming warframe finishes. It'd be a nice qol addition down the line, functioning same as "foundry has finished x" notification.

[Neodos]

Can infusing abilities be made completely free? Or at the very least, make it so the first infusion makes all further infusions of that ability on any frame free. The cost may not be so much early on (though 18% is pretty considerable) but it adds up over time. Adding a cost to infusion makes me feel a lot less inclined to experiment with things that may be fun or silly, but not exactly optimal. 

[Zaratul.96]

4 minutes ago, tennomantra said:

When you enter room, console is on your left.

 

Thank you very much kind sir ^^

[Nazzami]

looking over the cost i think the amount of railjack resource could do with being cut down asterite for example is way to much i doubt a mr8 would have access that amount needed even at mr29 I'm only slight above the requirement to feed it once, since helminth opened to mr8 the resource costs should be closer to the level that a mr8 can reach otherwise why give them access to it so early? Also the lack of fish parts, kuva and raw gems and ore is strange since they could fill in the gap with some helminth resource like bile.

[tennomantra]

14 minutes ago, Neodos said:

Can infusing abilities be made completely free? Or at the very least, make it so the first infusion makes all further infusions of that ability on any frame free. The cost may not be so much early on (though 18% is pretty considerable) but it adds up over time. Adding a cost to infusion makes me feel a lot less inclined to experiment with things that may be fun or silly, but not exactly optimal. 

I don't agree. It's on you how much you want to invest into experimenting and considering that this is the only resource sink in the game, for otherwise limitless resources that you keep gaining and can even consciously farm, the price for every infuse seems reasonable. Once you find what you like, you keep that infuse forever and overtime regain all resources spent on that experiment and then some.
The mere process or gaining resources to try infusions is gameplay content in itself, for better or worse.

[Zilotz]

57 minutes ago, ixidron92 said:

You nuts?

Nope, just having some dreams about it behaving as other abilities i guess 😄

[Neodos]

4 minutes ago, tennomantra said:

I don't agree. It's on you how much you want to invest into experimenting and considering that this is the only resource sink in the game, for otherwise limitless resources that you keep gaining and can even consciously farm, the price for every infuse seems reasonable. Once you find what you like, you keep that infuse forever and overtime regain all resources spent on that experiment and then some.
The mere process or gaining resources to try infusions is gameplay content in itself, for better or worse.

That's fair. But having to go back and farm these old resources doesn't exactly sound appealing, it's barely "content" when all it really entails is grabbing Nekros, a couple of boosters and going onto a dark sector for a while while doing something else on another monitor. Besides that, at this point I do think that the initial cost is fine, but I think all further infusions should be free.

[Aquebus]

After infusing abilities, I think it would be optimal to be able to reorder abilities. After reaching rank 30 for any warframe you will be able to reorder the ability the slot you want instead of have it locked it 1 2 3 4. This would be especially helpful for console players since their controller habits will cause them to tend to click certain things in certain orders. If you forma the reorder will reset since you have to level up again.

[RivaAurelius]

Having gotten my hands on this system recently, here are my personal obversations. 

1. Most of the abilities feel VERY underwhelming and of not much use. For instance, please allow empower to benefit from power strength mods. I'm sure I'll probably be wishing for more buffs in future, as well as for the nerfs made to certain abilities to be reverted. 

2. The railjack resources required are insanely high. 5K asterite for ONE feed? Nuh uh, ridiculous. Maybe make it a 50th of that and it'll feel more reasonable. I can't actually feed helminth right now because he is sick of all the resources I have except the railjack ones, which I do not have enough of to feed him even ONCE. 

3. Warframe subsuming takes a whole day. Seems like a very long time to wait. Maybe 12 hours would be a more reasonable waiting time? 

Thank you for reading. 

 

Edit: The resource drain is very high on all resources upon further use, but the railjack ones especially stand out. 

[wizardeiges]

I've reached rank 4 in the helminth system and I can't really make progress anymore because everything costs bile and bile is absolutely ridiculously overly expensive.

Lets have a look at what bile consumes - bile being required for every single thing available in rank 4:

Copernics : 15,000
cryotic : 3,000   - This is 30 minutes ish WITH a booster in excavation. bruh.
isos : 400
morphics: 40
thermal sludge : 50

^ These are the more "common" ones and you'll max these out with the red downwards arrow as you hit rank 4,so now you need to give the helminth other resources,the more rare ones to HOPEFULLY slightly chip away at the red arrow that's giving everything massive penalties.

fresnels : 1,000
diluted thermia : 5
somatic fiber : 10

Lets talk about these. one THOUSAND fresnels? this is insanity,I've maxed out my intrinsics,I've gotten all the best railjack weapons(at least 1 of each archetype),the best armor,boosters,cores,etc.  I've farmed for all of the avionics.  I would consider myself someone who has played a huge amount of railjack.
I have around 2 thousand fresnels after all of my railjack playing. This system requiring one thousand to just barely change the other resources in red is way to much.

Onto diluted thermia:   This is required to fight a orb and requires you go through a very long process to obtain. This even using it at all is silly and ontop of that,5? you wot m8. If you're going to make me spend thermia on this then let it be only 1 and let it remove all red arrows on a single use.

somatic fiber : this is a very rare drop. The best lens in the game only requires 5 of these.   Helminth on the other hand requires 10x at a time to barely chip away at the massive red arrow penalty hitting other resources.
Somatic fibers have a 15% chance at dropping from a demolisher in disruption lua.  You can't just go out and farm these things as you have to trigger them.  Somatic fibers are a rare resource from a enemy you can barely farm.   Nothing in this game asks for more than 5 and when it does,it gives you a permanent item that's currently the best in the game(the lens).


So your choices are :

Get stuck at level 4 because these resources and the costs of them are insanity,or wait a full month,feeding the helminth 1 frame per 24 hours since there is a timer on it,and hope that the resources the frames eatin over an entire month is enough to push you to level 8 so you can start using sentient gear to remove the massive penalty on items marked with red arrows.

Different Suggested solutions:
suggestion 1:
I would ask that you shift around a lot of the different  resources between bile and the rest of the other excretions so you don't have bile,the only one all actions use,completely cripple progression with its very hard to get resources stopping progression. (by very hard I mean the somatic fiber,thermia,and fresnels which all become mandatory if you don't have millions of cryo and the other resources since the red penalty is so heavy that it will purge every resource you have for barely any bile)

suggestion 2:
Make the different actions require different excretions,this means removing bile from a couple actions. 

suggestion 3:
Add cooldowns to the red arrows so they aren't permanently fully red until you purge huge amounts of rare resources. Let us circumvent the cooldown by giving away credits so we have a stable credit sink.

suggestion 4:
Remove the 24 hour cooldown on subsuming so I can get the experience from subsuming.  I already spent several days grinding endlessly just to be able to get the helminth segment,and I blew 50 plat to get around the 24 hour craft time on the helminth segment,AND i've spent a lot of time farming the warframe parts and getting lucky with their drops,and i've spent the time farming the resources to make the frames,I've spent the plat to have the warframe slots,and i've waited 3 days to craft the frame.
Putting another 24 hours in the mix for each.and.every.single.warframe.back.to.back. is way to much,I've done your grind,please let me subsume so I can make progress and not have to spend a month waiting behind nothing but a 24 hour timer per frame.      I'll even take a 3 hours timer,24 hours is way to much considering how much time has already been spent getting this far just to use the thing.

suggestion 5:
Cut almost all of these costs in half and some of them like asterite and fresnels down to 300 each

Suggestion 6:
Let us use a single forma to completely reset all red arrows to the highest tier green arrow

Suggestion 7:
randomize what excretion something is using every time you apply it. 
example:
empower costs calx,pheromones,and bile.
 

If I apply empower,make it so that apply it a second time rolls the excretions to use different excretions.

so if I use empower which costs calx,pheromones,and bile.  On my second applying it,the 3 excretions would be replaced by the other 3 excretions and it would keep swapping between the set of 3 every time i apply empower. Make this happen with all skills. Then add a timer ontop of this so that a skill isn't locked to those 3 excretions. Let them rotate between the 6 when left alone and not applied for,say,5 hours. a rotating appetite makes sense and this lets us use more different resources. currently all skills either use calx or bile. make it so there is a chance any skill could have any set of 3 excretions,you just have to catch it at a good time to get it costing the resources you have.


I haven't had that many issues with the other ones just yet. The asterite cost is ridiculous though in one of them,just about all railjack resource costs in here is crazy.   Bile has stopped my progression so I can't give you much more feedback than this right now.


Edit:
Feedback on helminth skills:

Infested mobility : no other movement skill in the game costs this much energy,please reduce the energy cost.  Also let us recast mid skill like all other movement skills in the game.
I really like infested mobility,I just wish I could use it more.


Edit #2
I've hit rank 8 and let me tell you,I've purged about a year and a half worth of materials.   I thought being able to use sentient loot,the level 8 perk,would help me reach rank 10 after blowing so many resources to get to it.
I was very wrong.
"Sentient appetite: feed sentient resources to the helminth,to increase its appetite for one resource that it no longer craves"
Spoiler,this is completely random on what it chooses and there is no way to change it yourself without spending sentient parts in order to do so. Also,each sacrifice of sentient parts for something random will give you 0 experience and 0 % to any of the excretion materials it effects.
Also,absurdly enough the shenanigans doesn't end there. It DOESN'T make it crave the item,it merely slightly boosts the meter by 50% AND trying to sacrifice multiple times in the same attempt will not stack so if I purge 1,200 sentient cores labeled to increase hunger by 50% on a single item? I get 50% only.  If I mix items like cores and anomaly shards,I still only get 50%. 
Also,that 50% is a load of lies.  What it means is 50% of what the arrow is at.

From what I can tell there are 5 states of feeding a item:
neutral,this does not have a arrow.
Green arrow 1/2
green arrow 2/2 (full green arrow)
And then there is 
red arrow 1/2
red arrow 2/2

So in order to get back up to a green arrow 2/2   I have to eat 5 sentient items but not all at once as 50% doesn't stack even if you try to make it.
so If my carbides is at red arrow 2/2 I need to:
eat a ton of sentient items and cross my fingers that the next time I eat sentient items,it'll roll around to carbides.

Then I have to do that 4 more times.
Yeah,good luck. I have a higher chance at spitting into a glass on a record table spinning at 200 miles a hour considering all of my items I can feed at this point are all red arrow 2/2 because it took just about everything I had to get to this point. All of my items except the more ridiculous stuff like 5k asterite etc.

Lets get some sugar for this bowl of lies.
Here are the sentient stats,keep in mind you need to consume them 5x per red arrow 2/2.
intact sentient core: 75
exceptional sentient core: 10
flawless sentient core : 5
anomally shard : 2
cetus wisp:5

x5 all of this for each red arrow 2/2 you have and x5 the cost every time anything goes into a double red arrow.
I've just purged over a thousand cores and every single one of my items (minus the asterite etc) are STILL in red arrows as it seems to bounce around to the red arrow 2/2 first before rotating around to anything not at red arrow 2/2 and since everything is a 2/2 red arrow,not even my stockpile of years of hunting sentients can get me out of this massive red arrow hole. 
You seem to have made 3 different "100%s"
a 100% of red arrow,a 100% of neutral,and a 100% of green arrow.
You'd think a "50%" would send me from red arrow 2/2 to neutral and then another 50% would send me from neutral to green arrow 2/2.  Neutral is the middle ground between red arrow 2/2 and green arrow 2/2.

I've come to the conclusion that this entire system was made based on the 0.0001% of players with inventories so massive that they've been playing for 8 years and have played every day over those 8 years. Either that or the testing took place on a test server with unlimited resources.

I usually spend at least 2 hours a day playing warframe and that's on a busy day. I have a 3,996 hour playtime on steam.
I have continued playing over several years across all game content and rarely do I ever play anything else. I say all of this to explain that I am not a average player and because of that I expected to be able to sky rocket to at least level 9 which I can't.   If I can't reach this level then I worry for average players who don't play warframe as much as I do. Players who don't have so many hours to burn every day over several years.

You made this available to MR 8 players. This is barely even doable for people who have spent literally thousands of hours grinding.
Now excuse me while I go sit in a corner and scream into it for spending way to much time typing this and spent way to many resources to justify my helminth level.  Had I known how deep this hole would go before starting it,I would have stopped at level 1.

I sure hope you read all of this..you did ask for feedback afterall. 
I've done my best to remain patient and respectful.   I love Warframe and i've rarely ever critisized anything about this game but this helminth update..bruh. I just can't right now. 
I sure hope some huge changes happen soon because I want most of these resources spent back if possible. These aren't just resources,they are time.and a lot of them don't come as easy as nano spores. Please have respect for a players time.. 

Spoiler

bruh that 5k asterite and general railjack resource cost.

 

[Vesterbro]

I think we need some rebalancing for the amount of feeding railjack resources to helminth. It's way too expensive right now.
This is some of the railjack resources that I acquired since its release. Yes I do not play railjack much anymore since hitting the max intrinsics and done building any armaments or components I needed, but this is just absurd. 

All of the Brachoids I've gathered, 3+ months spent on railjack and it's gone in 2 click?

Asterite too. 3 clicks away to deplete all of it.

 

And don't tell me that this is to incentivize player to play more railjack. Please don't. I can't spent that much time.
Please balance helminth feed cost from railjack resources 🙏

[master_of_destiny]

This is...about as broken as I was expecting on the resources.  Let's do some simple back-of-the-hand thinking, and start poking holes.

 

20k nanospores.  That's pretty fair, considering that most missions I'll be taking home about 3-6k if I don't bother harvesting.  That's an absolutely fantastic balance of grind to reward.

3 Argon.... OK.  If it's about 4 runs of nanospores, and 1-3 runs for argon, we're setting up a single feeding to be about a 4-5 run trip at maximum.  I'll buy that.

I'm largely OK then with that stuff...but it's the outlier.

 

Let's look at gallium, orokin cells, and neuroptics.  They drop singularly....and you want in excess of 20 of them.  That's a bit much on the grind side.  I can't really be too angry, but it's in excess of 4 times the grind of the previously cited stuff.  Ouch.

 

Now we travel into the WTF region.  Let's take a quick gander at the railjack resources.  I'm looking at 15k for the basic stuff.  It drops much lower, and the argument that it's alright because of 1k end of mission rewards is crap.  I've never done a speed farm, maxed out my intrinsics, completed 2 of each weapons and 1 of each different component, and I've got about 200k of these at most.  I don't expect people to have more, given the utter mess railjack was and how many people simply levelled up with the Scarlet Spear grind given how horrible the missions are.  

It gets much worse though.  1000 Fresnels.  10k Trachyons.  1000 Bracoids.  I can use them respectively 1-3-1 times before I'm out of them.  The most frightening bit is that they are all relatively rare or uncommon drops, so these numbers represent literally 20-30 missions at the best of times.   It's basically one too many zeroes on the required resources. 

 

Let me be absolutely clear on what I see here.  Take the top 10% of players by time.  List out their resources.  Add all of each one up, and divide by the count of the top players.  This represents an average of the top players' inventory.  Now divide that by your goal feedings, and you've got an average cost that should deplete inventories across the board.  In doing this it's easy to understand this broken economy.  The problem is that it's pretty stupid to do that for railjack.  Why?  Well, people who finished this grind early built one reactor, one engine, one shield, and two weapons.  They did so because the release was unbalanced so far that there was literally only one choice for a weapon.  As months passed, it was patched.  Now the people never came back, because it's a mode without integration, so they're sitting on plenty of resources.  The people who didn't power level through the broken release spent the resources...or perhaps this is just an attempt to spur more railjack participation.  Either way, it needs revision.

 

 

Let's also dissect the leveling.  Feeding is capped such that 100% means no more resources period.  The resource conversion is metered on a -, neutral, + basis based upon presumably consumption reset at world reset.  This is compounded by a mechanic where inputs decrease in value as more are made.  Effectively, this means that you should only feed the Helminth barely enough to do what you want, and focus on increasing it simply by the time gated subsuming of warframes.  It's then throttled by a 23 hour wait timer....and an unknown cost for any given ability.  This is not a usage for excess materials, it's a daily grind to feed it warframes and hope that the ability returned isn't aggressively expensive given the double decaying return on invested materials.

 

 

I'm also in the midst of trying to figure out the goal here.  Right now the question mark is relative cost for abilities, and what type of secretion is required.  Perhaps the balance is between cheap but garbage abilities (Air Burst), and more expensive but nerfed ones (Roar).  Maybe it's balanced around the type of secretions used.  Better yet, maybe this whole thing is a "Mystery Box" that we're all being forced to open.  Refresh my memory, how did that go for Lost, Star Trek, and Star Wars?

 

 

If it isn't clear, this was a system with promise that has been subverted and handicapped at every turn.  It's a transparent grind with very little to recommend for any new player, and veterans can see that the costing seems to have been designed by someone who really thinks there should be more people playing a game mode generally rejected because it was a grindy content island that offered little to nothing that was promised in the demonstrations.  It needs a rebalance.  Right now, anything but daily sessions of creating sacrificial frames to level up us pretty idiotic.  The resource structure and economy is 100% behind that, and needs a very significant review.  

[DarthVZ]

Empower does nothing for chroma's vex armor. I really hope that it is just a bug...

[Zilotz]

Can we have RUSH button for subsuming?

Because it really takes long.

[tennomantra]

5 hours ago, wizardeiges said:

I've reached rank 4 in the helminth system and I can't really make progress anymore because everything costs bile and bile is absolutely ridiculously overly expensive.

Lets have a look at what bile consumes - bile being required for every single thing available in rank 4:

Copernics : 15,000
cryotic : 3,000   - This is 30 minutes ish WITH a booster in excavation. bruh.
isos : 400
morphics: 40
thermal sludge : 50

^ These are the more "common" ones and you'll max these out with the red downwards arrow as you hit rank 4,so now you need to give the helminth other resources,the more rare ones to HOPEFULLY slightly chip away at the red arrow that's giving everything massive penalties.

fresnels : 1,000
diluted thermia : 5

Agreed, bile is looking to be a terrible progression stopper.

Based on requirements of other materials and the quantities of RJ resources I have after playing it extensively, I've pulled some approximate numbers for reference.
Helminth asks for:
Titanium 20k per feed
Asterite 5k
Fresnels 1k
It should be closer to:
Titanium 1.5k per feed
Asterite 200
Fresnels 40

[HunterDigi]

I came here to say pretty much the same things that were said and shown above about resources.

In short:

I have finished railjack content entirely and I have ~2k fresnels, 1k per click is really insane.

I'm not gonna give any diluted thermia to this, certainly not 5 at a time. I really don't want to farm that stuff anymore and I want to be able to play exploiter whenever I want.

10 fibers per click seems also rather large.

3k cryotic, heck no.

And all that is in the same category, bile... makes it pretty hard to feed it diverse diet when there's so much imbalance.

 

I have 2.5k Bracoid, it costs 1k per click, that's also unacceptable... seems that a lot of rare/low count given RJ resources require way too much, was this even measured on live accouints?

66k Trachons, 10k per click, gonna skip that one aswell.

 

There were other categories that had weird values but the abiltities I have so far don't use those and the game doesn't show how much it would cost if it weren't full.

[liskot]

As others have pointed out, the Railjack resource costs are completely out of proportion. A few of them need to be reduced by a factor of 5, most of them need to be reduced by a factor of 10, and a few of them by a factor of 20.

To put it into perspective for one of the worst cases, I would much rather farm 100,000+ polymer than 1000 bracoid. I have maxed out almost everything including building two of all weapons, spending a degenerate number of hours farming Gian Point in the post-release month, and have a total of 4000 stockpiled. Building every Mk III Lavan item in Railjack twice will take 256 total.

I should also note that I love Railjack (outside of Asterite farming anyway), so it's not about not wanting to play it. Just the grinds proposed here are beyond reason.

[Exelcto]

From what I remember, during Tennocon demo, DE told us that every single resource that we gathered during our journey would usable with Helminth's system.
My question is, why can't we feed him with Orb Vallis/ PoE/ HoD resources such as fish parts/ ores?
I got tons of those and would be pleased to somehow get rid of them.

On the other hand my 600 Breaths of Eidolon are waiting for some use, maybe as sentient resource 😞

[MrJarlex]

The fact that the whole new systems is hidden behind a reputation rank is really weak imo, the whole sales point for this patch for me was that you could extract warframe abilities, i guess you can but at the same time you can't cuz you have to unlock it first.... somithing this big should not have been hidden behind a grind, i feel that this is very disapointing for many.

you MR reflect how much standing you can get a day, imagine a "new" player or low mr player, how many days they have to farm until they get it..... I feel this i very poor game design, and many on the forums are a bit frustrated and a bit angry with this.

 

Worst of all many ppl dont even know you have to get the rep so you can buy and then make the segment, and then you can finaly move warframe abilities around, the whole communication behind this new feature looks to have failed hard, and I truely hope something is done about this !

And the resource cost when you finaly get it, is really F**king insane, sry to say but it is!

I hope something is done about this as well, I mean instead of playing warframe cuz its fun, you are forced into a grind and wasting you time and resources, once after the grind is done, and when you then run of recources you just go back to farming more recources instead of actually "playing the game"

 

I know games like warframe need some kind of farming element, but farm for weapons, or a new warframe that is what we want, not farming rep, so we then can farm mats so we then can buy a segment for our space craft, witch that needs to be build, and then It literly eats our recources so we can go farm more of them af we gave them all away.

I feel like this system or unlocking of it, is a fake illustion of game play, and just a time sink that you have to do, if you like to play warframe, never felt so punished for playing a game that i like.

[wizardeiges]

1 hour ago, tennomantra said:

Agreed, bile is looking to be a terrible progression stopper.

Based on requirements of other materials and the quantities of RJ resources I have after playing it extensively, I've pulled some approximate numbers for reference.
Helminth asks for:
Titanium 20k per feed
Asterite 5k
Fresnels 1k
It should be closer to:
Titanium 1.5k per feed
Asterite 200
Fresnels 40

It only gets worse the higher level you get as everything becomes a double red arrow. I've edited my post that you responded to it as i've managed to progress farther into the helminth system.
Don't think you can depend on sentient items at rank 8 to make resource cost easier. I sure did and i'm regretting it lol.

[(PSN)The_Descolada]

Major issue, blazing pillage is completely nonfunctional as it requires haven to have any effect. Please fix this, I want to set S#&$ on fire!

[Ursoon]

In addition to my prevoius feedback comment, subsuming a warframe ability (i did mag's pull) requires 60% bile, and bile is the most expensive resource, as other people have pointed out already. And bile is required for literally everything else too.

I really want the resource costs to be lowered. You wanted us to experiment, but if we do, we will need to constatnly grind for morphics/somatic fibers/argon/copernics/etc. Which is not enjoyable at all.

[Cybran_]

I would like to thank DE for the system, it seems great in the little time i had to play with it. i won't go into balancing, i'm sure others will do that in spades 😛

 

However, there is one thing i would like to suggest: please let us infuse the same ability on more than 1 configuration so we can use more builds around an ability. curently, if you infuse an ability in a configuration, even if you change to different warframe configuration, the only option with that ability is to remove it. 

Later Edit: upon further testing i noticed that we can indeed put the same ability on more configuration slots upon the initial infusing. If one wants to add the ability to multiple configurations afterwards, they seem to need to remove the ability than add it again with all the desired configurations selected. a bit convoluted, and an unnecessary expense, but at least it works. 

 

I understand the desire to incentivize players to try other abilities too, but i think people that want to try things out will do so regardless of this limitations, and those that don't simply won't bother and stick with only a few abilities they enjoy. Having the same ability in several configuration slots would not impact this aspect too much, and would allow for more build diversity as well.

 

thank you again, and keep up the good work! 

p.s. i know this is not the place, but could i also suggest a warframe/weapon exilus forma to take the place of the stance forma? 😛 there is little need to change stances on weapons, but more exilus options would be great, especially since the new abilities can make different things viable now.

[vFlitz]

Railjack resource costs for Helminth are busted. They have one, if not two, zeroes too many.