Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[quxier]

16 hours ago, (NSW)Kaizer said:

We're not made of cryotic you know.

I haven't seen more than 1 cm of the snow for the few years... that means something.

[Rage_Inducer]

Why not add the orokin ciphers (the ones awarded from opening derelict vaults) as resources for bile?

They currently serve no purpose beyond obtaining Mirage's quest.

[Jackdarsan]

On 2020-09-16 at 10:32 PM, Traubenzuckr said:

helminth is for very experienced players not for fake outrage players

edit: and especially not for brozime's customers

Yep totally agree, this is what we get when DE make it available for new players (low MR). People are gonna complain since they hardly have any resources. 

Should of left it for higher MR but nooo why have any incentive for any progression this game.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

3 hours ago, Jackdarsan said:

Yep totally agree, this is what we get when DE make it available for new players (low MR). People are gonna complain since they hardly have any resources. 

Should of left it for higher MR but nooo why have any incentive for any progression this game.

Getting a little off topic, but what if DE just added more ranks, perks, and abilities to thing. Overall expansion of systems so players could go on and on?

[Xikto]

We should be able to edit currently put in helminth ability, as in change loadout slots or it's position in loadouts! please one shouldn't need to remove and put it again just for that!

[Frendh]

I would like to be able to use warframe names as a search tag for the helminth search field. If very nice if you haven't memorized the name of all the abilities.

[quxier]

4 hours ago, Xikto said:

We should be able to edit currently put in helminth ability, as in change loadout slots or it's position in loadouts! please one shouldn't need to remove and put it again just for that!

Yes, I've made such suggestion some time ago.
Abilities are set to number (e.g. N-th configuration) not name.  It should take all things, new abilities included, when you move "FireBall" config (for example).

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

Some abilities/augments that are available for subsuming could potentially have synergy with similar abilities to what the original warframe had, but currently don't. Two things that come to mind are Atlas's Petrify augment Ore Gaze which affects petrified enemies and Revenant's Reave which has bonus synergy with enthralled enemies. First, Atlas's Petrify augment Ore Gaze, Frost's Avalanche and Gara's Mass Vitrify both petrify enemies enemies in a similar fashion to Atlas's abilities which Ore Gaze also works on (and was changed due to synergy with his other abilities) so why not allow the augment to work on those types of abilities as well? Next, Revenant's Reave, the bonus synergy for Reave let's you steal extra health and shields from enthralled enemies (essentially converted enemies) this currently doesn't affect enemies under Nyx's Mind Control or Xaku's Accuse abilities which are similar in function and again, why not allow the synergy?

[spacescapes]

For Frost's ice wave ability on a prime warframe: could you please get rid of the orange crystal things and have it look like the regular? It's bothersome because it doesn't change color with the warframe's energy or emissive colors. Thanks if possible.

[ttylerrocks4u]

nothing to see here.

[quxier]

14 hours ago, (XB1)BARLEYDAWG said:

Some abilities/augments that are available for subsuming could potentially have synergy with similar abilities to what the original warframe had, but currently don't.

Not tested it but Baruuk should get "his meter" from all immobilized/stuned/put to sleep enemies as well. There are probably more. And I agree with you.

[(XBOX)Nightseid]

Sigh... I wish  Desecrate was a subsumed ability. I feel its very unfair all frames do not have capability to also be farming frames. 

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

3 hours ago, (XB1)Nightseid said:

Sigh... I wish  Desecrate was a subsumed ability. I feel its very unfair all frames do not have capability to also be farming frames. 

Actually you can turn all frames into farming frames since Atlas gives Petrify which has an augment that allows for extra loot drops. Not to mention the kubrow with the Desecrate type looting ability.

[(PSN)Rainbow_Neos1]

22 minutes ago, (XB1)BARLEYDAWG said:

Actually you can turn all frames into farming frames since Atlas gives Petrify which has an augment that allows for extra loot drops. Not to mention the kubrow with the Desecrate type looting ability.

Huh? The topic is farming FRAMES. Atlas can be one, yes, but not all. 

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)Rainbow_Neos1 said:

Huh? The topic is farming FRAMES. Atlas can be one, yes, but not all. 

You can use the augments for subsumed abilities on the new warframe, so literally every frame can use Petrify with Ore Gaze for extra loot drops.

[KlutzMeister]

best idea, make holding infested mobility produce super-jump, got this great idea when i was running as Gauss and the dang scenery wouldn't get out of my way, very rude. >_>

[Gudgement502]

ive been playing this game a long time and every time i put my time and money into getting something i like it gets a huge nerf or becomes easier to get a month later its like de is tryna get rid of all the vets i know DE is😭 not gonna give me my money back but can i have my plat back everything i spent it on is useless now endgame all that work i did for marked for death almost made me throw my pc it got nerfed the next day i regret even messing with the helminth system waisted so many resources frames and plat to speed up process i love this game so much but i wont be spending any more of my hard earned cash until i get some type of refund i feel very cheated 700 plus hours played $500 plus spent all gone to waste now thank DE😭

[LuckyCharm]

Hate to say it friend but the games been getting progressively more and more grindy as time goes on to the point now where theyve taken to nerfing things that make grind a little more bareable. This helminth system alrwady personifies grind incarnate with just how many resources are expected to be fed and farmed. If any other resource sink comes along in the future mark my words thst people are going to really feel that hit now theyve sunk literal months or years worth of accumulated resource into this system

[Alpha_Tango]

I had every WF sacrificed weeks ago already, I just have a few suggestions I had in mind

• while viewing/hovering over non-Helminth abilities, it will be helpful if we can also see every Augment mod supporting it. Not having any of this obviously vital info requires a lot of cross checking to wikia
• while on Arsenal/Upgrade window, can we have a Configuration slot occupied by a subsumed ability be dragged freely to any of the A,B,C slots together with the subsumed ability and not be locked to its original position after it was infused? This helps prioritizing the most useful/preferred subsumed ability, after testing, readily available (e.g. to default A slot) without having to check if its the right build before or discovering that it is the wrong one after deploying. I know Loadout slots prevent this from happening, but while we don't have enough and usually assemble everything at the topmost/leftmost "Current" Loadout slot, this will really cut prep time if not missed optimizations for any mission
• I think the few Helminth abilities available deserve their own Augment mods because only a few of them have an impact at all

Some points to ponder/observations

• the addition of resources, especially to Bile, seems a fair enough adjustment to cover costs
• the flowers was a great addition ofc, only it looks static and final. Maybe It can be informative too while the arrangement can be ever changing if the most useful WF ability it represents grew bigger, glow brighter or placed higher according to a players usage. It does not have to be all of them, maybe just the top five/ten ? Hovering over them special blooms and seeing the ability is enough I guess, while constant usage creates the illusion of a real live garden
• the Helminth itself is funny, how come no amount of feeding it makes it grow a random displaced eye, tentacle, pustule etc? Any subtle growth at all just to show how greedy it is. Furthermore, why not add additional interactions as time goes by?

The Helminth overall is a good addition it just needs a few UI tweaks.  I am also looking forward to better Helminth abilities in the future.

 

[Frendh]

On 2020-10-16 at 5:29 PM, LuckyCharm said:

Hate to say it friend but the games been getting progressively more and more grindy as time goes on to the point now where theyve taken to nerfing things that make grind a little more bareable. This helminth system alrwady personifies grind incarnate with just how many resources are expected to be fed and farmed. If any other resource sink comes along in the future mark my words thst people are going to really feel that hit now theyve sunk literal months or years worth of accumulated resource into this system

The game has definitly been getting easier and easier. 99.99% of the farmable things have remained unchanged or are easier to get now than they were in the past. The only thing that I can recall that has become harder to farm is Protea with the increase from 75 kills to 150 for a full squad. If you mean the game is getting more grindy because they add more things to farm, then yes you are correct.

Adding new items on both sides of the spectrum is not making the game more grindy. The sides being "really easy to get" and the other "really grindy to get". And they have been covering most part of the spectrum. I would claim, disregarding events, right now the most grindy things to get are the platinum arcanes that drop from the hydrolyst.

Helminth system is not grindy in the sense of cost vs reward. You do not have to get the helminth. Game is really easy without the helminth. If you get the helminth, less than 5 of the abilities are needed. Which is less than 10 hours of farming, disregarding build times for warframes. Probably less than 5 hours if you are a veteran. 

I am convinced  I would go from 0 resources to completing the Helminth and unlocking all abilities faster than farming a rank 5 platinum hydrolyst arcane from drops.

Players have for many many years been asking for a decent resource sink for their surplus resources. Helminth system is way more than decent. I thought the helminth costs were fine from the beginning. 

It would be extremely boring if all things in the game were equally easy to farm and attain.

[quxier]

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

The game has definitly been getting easier and easier. 99.99% of the farmable things have remained unchanged or are easier to get now than they were in the past.

When they introduced the Octavia the grind started to get bigger or it requires luck (rng). Some of them requires resources from this one place so you need to do all of that stuffs (open worlds frames). Some grind might be "okeish". For example Gara's grind was not only grinding one thing over and over. As fair remember only the Wisp was in old style.
Check what it was before the Octavia (for most frames):
- most frame you have to be the boss few times
- some bosses requires you additional resources to challenge a boss (Kella or Ambulas)

I refarmed most of frames and I have just needed argon or something rarer from time to time. However it wasn't hard to get.
There were few exception like Nidus, Ivara or Ash (I haven't refarmed it yet so I don't remember).

So yeah. It's getting grindy, at least for frames.

 

1 hour ago, Frendh said:

Helminth system is not grindy in the sense of cost vs reward. You do not have to get the helminth. Game is really easy without the helminth. If you get the helminth, less than 5 of the abilities are needed. Which is less than 10 hours of farming, disregarding build times for warframes. Probably less than 5 hours if you are a veteran. 

First, you probably could be game with less than 10% of the game but it doesn't mean that you don't want to use another 90%.
However at least half of frames are easy to refarm and another 1/4 are farmable but require some effort (not huge for Helminth user). I got 10 or so frames to farm (most of them I've just bought) which require huge RNG (e.g Harrow) or some rank (e.g. Garuda). Given time to finish the quest and resources needed to subsume frames, Helminth system is indeed not "very grindy".
Secondly, in order to have 5 subsumed abilities you need 4th rank. Still, not huge investment, but someone might need farm few resources.

2 hours ago, Frendh said:

It would be extremely boring if all things in the game were equally easy to farm and attain.

Sure, some stuffs could be harder to beat. It could be bad for some players that are weaker, however that's player's thing.

On the other thing RNG is bad... you can raise your skill to "the infinity and beyond" but still get nothing.
 

[TexasTurtle]

There should be an option to replace different abilities on separate configurations.

For example, I'd like to put Roar on Volt in Config A and Config C by replacing Electric Shield and Discharge respectively.

This would increase possible build variety because I don't use Shield during normal missions or Discharge during Eidolon hunts.

[LuckyCharm]

On 2020-10-26 at 7:07 AM, Frendh said:

The game has definitly been getting easier and easier. 99.99% of the farmable things have remained unchanged or are easier to get now than they were in the past. The only thing that I can recall that has become harder to farm is Protea with the increase from 75 kills to 150 for a full squad. If you mean the game is getting more grindy because they add more things to farm, then yes you are correct.

Adding new items on both sides of the spectrum is not making the game more grindy. The sides being "really easy to get" and the other "really grindy to get". And they have been covering most part of the spectrum. I would claim, disregarding events, right now the most grindy things to get are the platinum arcanes that drop from the hydrolyst.

Helminth system is not grindy in the sense of cost vs reward. You do not have to get the helminth. Game is really easy without the helminth. If you get the helminth, less than 5 of the abilities are needed. Which is less than 10 hours of farming, disregarding build times for warframes. Probably less than 5 hours if you are a veteran. 

I am convinced  I would go from 0 resources to completing the Helminth and unlocking all abilities faster than farming a rank 5 platinum hydrolyst arcane from drops.

Players have for many many years been asking for a decent resource sink for their surplus resources. Helminth system is way more than decent. I thought the helminth costs were fine from the beginning. 

It would be extremely boring if all things in the game were equally easy to farm and attain.

I was more meaning really grindy to get yeah. If you want examples, the older frames required you to kill a fairly simple boss, even who back then was challenging but not a grind. Then bosses got updated to require longer fights for things to get. Then they required token grind to fight the boss. then they stopped needing bosses and instead needed to be rng drops from things like manics. Then from rng for endless wave c's. Then singular game modes for all 4 pieces with low % drop chances. Over time the game has gotten more and more grindy to get things. People haven't been asking for things to get harder to get. People have been asking for more places to use the things they have already gotten.  Simply using your overpowered things for grind you could easily have completed with less than half that power doesn't quite make things fun if you have to do it over and over

The big resource sink for helminth though, me for example enjoy playing spy missions, captures and the like. Rarely places to get big drops of resources and yet as a "play it your way" game it feels like the only way to have really gotten the resource stacks expected to have accumulated to a point where helminth isnt an issue would have required me to play not my way, but whatever other way people who have gotten all the things played. Much the same way that its almost required for a loot frame in some missions purely to get enough resource to continue the mission does not make for a play it your way either.

[Frendh]

On 2020-10-28 at 9:08 AM, LuckyCharm said:

I was more meaning really grindy to get yeah. 

Most of the content is as easy as it was when it was introduced. Jackal has been updated and is more difficult. Ash was moved from some boss to manics. Excalibur replaced on pluto and moved somewhere else. Vauban was moved from alerts to nightwave shop. Vor got a make over. There are a few more things I cannot recall.

When one adds new content to old content, one generally steps up the game. You either make it harder, slower or different. Because progress. You have already cleared all the easy content and you are geared up. Then you move on to more challenging and/or grindy content. Grindy because it is a farming game. Then DE _thankfully_ adds different content for you to use all your accumulated items on/for. Adding 50 more Sergeants to cover all the new warframes is bad game developement. I do not want to see that.

On 2020-10-28 at 9:08 AM, LuckyCharm said:

The big resource sink for helminth though, me for example enjoy playing spy missions, captures and the like. Rarely places to get big drops of resources and yet as a "play it your way" game it feels like the only way to have really gotten the resource stacks expected to have accumulated to a point where helminth isnt an issue would have required me to play not my way, but whatever other way people who have gotten all the things played. Much the same way that its almost required for a loot frame in some missions purely to get enough resource to continue the mission does not make for a play it your way either.

One of the main foundations of Warframe is "Kill stuff, get stuff.". It is not okay for people to get the same amounts of resources for doing a 60 second capture as me when I am killing things for 5 minutes during a survival. If you want stuff, then put in the time. You can do a 5 minute capture where 4 minutes consists of killing stuff. Which then will give you comparable amounts of resources.

Anyone who wants to "catch 'em all" better get used to farming resources.  Vast majority of crafting needs resources.  One "subsuming item" costs maybe ~10 times more than the average item.  And subsuming all warframes does not, from my perspective, cost much resources.  According to me there are two camps. Either you are in the "catch 'em all" camp, then you better be used to farming resources or it is time to find a new game. If you are in the "I want to power up" camp, then getting 3 subsumed warframes is plenty. 5 and I think I cover all areas I can imagine. For me I am going to guess less than 20 hours of resource farming if you start at 0 resources. Which is painful for a non-farmer player. But doable.

I am repeating myself but everything should not be as easy, nor as fast and not even as fun to get as everything else. There should be a spectrum.  I consider the Helminth to be an extra exclusive "item" and should have a cost to reflect that. It is not only very different from all other things you can farm but also a straight up buff. No side grading unless you intentionally prefer that over upgrading.

I am still of the opinion that farming platinum arcanes on the plains of eidolons is much more time consuming _and_ it has a player skill requirement. Speculation.

[Castlewars]

Idk if this thread is even being kept up with atm, but I had some suggestions to give about some of the subsumed abilities. It seems like something that was never taken into account when picking these were their versatility (how many frames can use an ability effectively, and how much of an impact it can make in battle) and accessibility (how hard it is to get the warframe and subsume it) some examples of these not being taken into account.

1. rhino's roar- by far the most versatile you can easily attach this to anything with a power/duration build which most frames already use. Very accessible too you can easily get this frame in under an hour making it ideal for subsuming. Also want to mention this is rhinos best ability and scales further than any other he has.

2. mesa's shooting gallery- Why, why is this a subsumed ability. It has NO versatility anything that can use this ability would be better off with roar. The jamming does nothing and it only buffs one person while roar can do an entire team. This also is significantly harder to get than roar it would take days unless you buy alad v cords. So again why is this even a thing its out scaled by something way easier to get. Also this is mesas worst ability

3. Saryn's molt- Ok sayrn is hard because all of her abilities are based on spores and spores is too good to be a subsumed ability without heavy nerfs. But this ability has no use at all. resonator can distract enemies better, on both the damage wouldnt scale enough to matter, and the speed buff molt gives isnt really that big of a deal. Also this is saryns worst ability. 

4. vauban tesla nervos- again no versality damage drops off quickly, and it can do CC but when you got other subsumed abilities that can CC groups of enemies together rather than giving shock status or knocking them down. Again this is one of vaubans worst abilities if not these worst. 

 

Conclusion: 

Why would the majority of players use anything but roar. Rhino takes barely any grinding to get, you get his best ability that scales really well. While with frames that take significantly more grinding to get we get their worst abilities that dont scale at all??? Seriously what are you guys doing over there not trying to be rude but how do you guys not see an issue with giving us an ability that scales super well thats also easily accessed, and giving use abilities with almost non-existent use that can take lots of grinding to get?