Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[TehGrief]

On 2020-08-27 at 9:12 PM, Voltage said:

Please buff Empower if it's to not benefit from any Strength mods. 50% is just too low to be a meaningful choice.

Also, please prevent Empower from consuming Energy Conversion stacks. If you have Energy Conversion on, and then cast Empower to buff your next cast, you consume Energy Conversion's bonus which is -50% Strength (because Empower is a fixed 50% Strength bonus) and then +50% from Empower granting the player no positive Strength increase.

12 hours ago, Zilotz said:

Is it a bug that Empower does not scale it's strength (always flat+50%)?

If it is not a bug then it is not good enough to be placed in most cases(takes place of a real ability for just +50% str).

Yes, it really does need to scale. 

It either needs to properly scale with power strength or not be affected by efficiency. 

 

[Totterson]

Bile is definitely the most problematic of the secretions; add resources to it please.

[TehGrief]

12 hours ago, ixidron92 said:

if it scaled of strength it'd be bonkers. Not to mention, a positive feedback loop. 

Even at 300% power strength if Empower scaled with power strength you would only receive +150% power strength - Not really "bonkers" in my opinion.

It cannot create a "positive feedback loop" as you suggest because when you use Empower it remains in the "active" state until another ability is cast - meaning it can never affect itself. 

[Eric_Sorvino]

I agree with the comments about the Railjack resource and some other rare resource costs being preposterous, bile being a progression stopper and inability to feed Helminth with Orb Vallis/ PoE/ HoD resources such as fish parts or ores. But can we also talk about requirements for ability installation? I'm at 3rd metamorphosis and not a single one of available abilities required any biotics and synthetics. In comparison, every single one of them needed bile, 4/5 needed pheromones and the rest is a combination of calx and oxides, so I can't feed them as the rest of the resources to continue upgrading Helminth.

[tennomantra]

Small qol improvement would be if selecting ie. Biotics on the left, would highlight Biotics secretions on the right, without having to mouse over them, as I do in this image:
 

Spoiler

Addition to the railjack resource requirement comments- Synthetic requirements seem reasonable, up to par with non-railjack resources.
"Aucrux Capacitors 25"; "Kesslers 300" "Komms 25"
Here's another image showcasing the inconsistency of RJ resource requirements:

Spoiler

Certainly, those values shouldn't be balanced around my experience alone, but I can't judge them on anything other than the amount of materials I've collected throughout the time I've played Railjack.
Perhaps info from more players would help determine which of these values are most out of place.

edit: I understand the idea of including all content resources for helminth feeding and if we will need to run a few railjack missions from time to time, in order to keep feeding efficiently, that sounds perfectly fine. But as it stands right now, with these values, it seems that it'd take an unreasonable amount of Railjack missions to get enough of some of these resources for a single feeding. I believe RJ resource requirements should be balanced with that idea in mind.

Comment on Helminth ability sound effects, I'm hoping at least some of them are placeholders. Personally, Gauss audio effects being used for Infested Mobility is irritating, especially in case you'd want to use it with Gauss himself, he'd then have 2 abilities ending with the same sound effect.
I didn't mind Empower's, but other people might have opposite experiences.

[Shaderox]

Tied in a bit to the helminth system i think the "invert ability tap/hold" option should be split into "invert tap/hold abilities" (Like the new additions to magnetize and Air burst) and "invert toggle abilities" (Like Quiver and whatever vaubans balls are called).

Since the normal tap/hold ones makes sense but the toggle ones feels wrong by default but you cannot change only one type. and now that there's some of those abilities up for grabs for all frames i figured it worth rising the concern.
 

 

 

 

Also ability to feed the cyst to the wall thing instead of carrying the ugly thing around for a week for an ancient very niche and specific breeding system?

[HansLuft778]

1 hour ago, tennomantra said:

Small qol improvement would be if selecting ie. Biotics on the left, would highlight Biotics secretions on the right, without having to mouse over them, as I do in this image:
 

  Hide contents

Addition to the railjack resource requirement comments- Synthetic requirements seem reasonable, up to par with non-railjack resources.
"Aucrux Capacitors 25"; "Kesslers 300" "Komms 25"
Here's another image showcasing the inconsistency of RJ resource requirements:

  Reveal hidden contents

Certainly, those values shouldn't be balanced around my experience alone, but I can't judge them on anything other than the amount of materials I've collected throughout the time I've played Railjack.
Perhaps info from more players would help determine which of these values are most out of place.

edit: I understand the idea of including all content resources for helminth feeding and if we will need to run a few railjack missions from time to time, in order to keep feeding efficiently, that sounds perfectly fine. But as it stands right now, with these values, it seems that it'd take an unreasonable amount of Railjack missions to get enough of some of these resources for a single feeding. I believe RJ resource requirements should be balanced with that idea in mind.

Comment on Helminth ability sound effects, I'm hoping at least some of them are placeholders. Personally, Gauss audio effects being used for Infested Mobility is irritating, especially in case you'd want to use it with Gauss himself, he'd then have 2 abilities ending with the same sound effect.
I didn't mind Empower's, but other people might have opposite experiences.

yeah, the balancing is really inconsistent. For example, Nano Spores costs 20k, a resource you get a 100k with almost no effort, while Asterite costs 5k, something you can by far less than nano spores. Wasted all my RJ resources before I noticed it (I don't need them anymore anyways, but gone is gone)

[Circle_of_Psi]

So with what I understand of the topic, the cost for the resources needs to be turned down quite a bit?

[(XBOX)The Neko Otaku]

The bile category has too little resources to pull from and we need to able to feed fish parts and mining resources from open worlds

[Eric_Sorvino]

Also, this is very minor, but can you PLEASE make Ordis stop spewing the same lines when player enters the Helminth room?

[Bricald]

My helminth experience so far: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BUwt3aKVH8

Am not the only one with this unusual problem

[CRAFTTHIS]

So I along with many other players have discovered that the helminth system has a resource bottleneck within the Bile category, any ability change requires some bile, however in the process of farming for more bile (which are relatively rare drops with the exception of thermal sludge and cryotic and maybe morphics for some veteran players) players will most likely farm enough to supplement the resource cost for all the other categories.

 

I suggest allowing players to disable most resources and have a targeted loot system so they dont acquire more miscellaneous resources to allow veterans like myself to resource dump. Only get argon to feed.  Or put Open world mining resources under Bile category plz T_T i just want to resource dump all my alloy plates

believe me I don't want the 3 million nano spores or 2 million alloy plates. 

[(PSN)Keiji_Haku]

so roar starts at 30% and with my setup i can get 50%. Not bad at all still. However

you let banish go through?????? are you kidding me? I dont understand. It is such a bad skill outside of limbo's kit. Although literally none of his skills are remotely good outside of his kit. I really wouldn't know how to fix this. It seems impossible unless you rethink limbos skills

[tennomantra]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Keiji_Haku said:

so roar starts at 30% and with my setup i can get 50%. Not bad at all still. However

you let banish go through?????? are you kidding me? I dont understand. It is such a bad skill outside of limbo's kit. Although literally none of his skills are remotely good outside of his kit. I really wouldn't know how to fix this. It seems impossible unless you rethink limbos skills

That is the only Limbo's ability that works out of his kit. You get something for subsuming him. It doesn't have to be an effective, efficient ability. You don't have to ever use it, or you can meme. In fact, if you don't intend to 100% helminth, you don't ever have to subsume Limbo and many other frames.

[(XBOX)Architect Prime]

I like the heminth system overall and am excited to make frames I like more useful. But I have a few constructive feedbacks so far.

LESS TIMERS - The time-to-wait to subsume a warframe seems pointless by every metric. The only thing I can think of would be to prevent players from burning through everything they've spent years farming in a single day. But if this is gonna be a late-game system, then just bring it back to MR 15 or something. New players have plenty to do before they should worry about this anyway. 

MORE DETAILED DESCRIPTIONS - I added Rebuild shields to my mag, only to find that shields can't be brought back from zero - which defeated the entire point of what I was going for. It would seem powerful albeit, but it doesn't sit right with me personally. I'd like to have known about this before pumping large amounts of material into it... If there's already something in there that I didn't see, then my apologies. But otherwise, add some details to expand. People who make it this far aren't afraid of a little reading. 

 THE NERFS AND THE BUFFS - There will inevitably be nerfs considered. But, you've committed to some of these powerful abilities and bringing those down will hurt the system as a whole at this point. I truly know that it's a pain in the ass to elevate the all the lesser stuff instead of handing out nerfs, but in this specific instance, I believe it's imperative that we make sure all the heminth abilities are powerful and rad. Eclipse going from 200% to 150% is fine. Just elevate some of these lesser abilities too. Respect to the team at DE for attempting this system to begin with. Don't back pedal. 

RESOURCES LIKE ARGON CRYSTALS - These should be able to be fed one at a time in my opinion. Things that you rarely have more than a few of at a time unless you just did an endurance run. 

COSMETIC POTENTIAL - Imagine being able to get a warframe's helmets or something when you subsume. Then being able to apply some visual aspect like that to other frames as well. Kind of like how we can mix and match with the idle animations. Consider it. 

DON'T LET EARLY TO MID GAME PLAYERS BULLY YOU INTO CHANGING A SYSTEM THAT'S FOR LATE-GAME PLAYERS. IT MAKES NOT SENSE. BE STRONG.

Best of luck

[RazorCure]

Built the part last night.

Feed Helminth 100% of ALL resource types.

Try to SUbsume new warframe (and a lvl 30 one, to test)

Type Confirm to continue. I type confirm

'Please wait' prompt flashes briefly

NOTHING HAPPENS

 

I mean..seriously? New patch bugs and all that, but wtf? I was so keen to test this and..it doesnt work.

[Aisu9]

mind controlled enemies / thralls don't receive elemental ward buff (and maybe others buff)

[Dragonah]

When choosing to sit in the Helminth chair after installing the segment with a warframe that has a cyst you're presented with a quick menu choice of either removing the cyst, or proceeding to the full Helminth menu. (see the spoiler tag below)

Spoiler

Please consider moving the remove cyst option into the actual Helminth menu. Additionally can we please have the option to re-infect a cured frame with a new cyst and remove it's immunity? Now that we have the Helminth system it would be nice if players could toggle the immunity. While i cant speak for others, it would be nice to have the toggle in case we accidentally immunize a frame we didn't want to inoculate, or maybe someone has already inoculated all their frames against the cyst and doesn't want to have to farm up a new frame just to get a new cyst to make a Helminth charger.

[Aisu9]

another feedback, why we can't use all our ressources like you said ? fish part, robotic fish, open world minerals, conservation tags and event exclusives ressources are not ressources ?

[Velaethia]

On 2020-08-21 at 11:54 AM, SilverBones said:

The Helminth system is here! We would love to hear your feedback regarding the Helminth system itself, including resource costs, functionality, ease of use, and anything else centered around your most squishy ship resident.

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of The Helminth System, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the new content, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use the dedicated Heart of Deimos Bug-Hunting thread!

Thank you!
 

For the love of platinum allow us to rush the subsuming process. We can rush almost all other time gates in the game (Except standing). 25-50 or so plat to rush the subsume. Just now unlocked the system would have to wait 2 days to even use another warframes ability. I was able to rush the segment but not rush the subsuming as far as I can tell. 

[(PSN)Silverback73]

DE just needs to continue to REALLY work to make alternatives to basic combat gameplay more enjoyable if they are going to require alternate modes of play to progress through loot/resource acquisition.

 I literally BALKED at the token system and conservation with HoD.

I left.  

Players [feel like they] are having to suffer inferior, alternative gameplay with no recourse or choice to grind the gameplay they DO love.

It doesn’t matter if it is newer, or more complex or “grand” in nature.

I’d rather grind good ole’ basic combat at a timesink of 2:1 or 3:1 to obtain the new offerings.

I’m not trying to insult the work put into these alternative modes.  But if we can continue to play making choices that keep us happily entertained (and in my case rewarding DE with $), even if it takes longer, then “getting through the content quickly” no longer becomes a reason that DE can use?

I’m not going to go so far as saying it’s Ego like in other threads I’ve read, but I do wonder why...is this game design 101 for grind?

 

[Velaethia]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

 I literally BALKED at the token system and conservation with HoD.

 

Conservation is kinda bad. But the token system is a direct upgrade. It's a lot easier to farm tokens than standing. And you can overfarm standing. So like lets say you are busy and work all week and only get to really play during the weekend. You can farm up a lot of tokens and then just log in once a day and cap your standing. I like the systems though the pricing for son tokens tends to still be too much but i say that goes with conservation flaws. 

[Borg1611]

Just finished building it (refused to rush), the resource costs in a number of cases seem unreasonable at best. IE: 20k titanium for one turn in when I have 30k total (and someone who played RJ enough to have a decked out RJ). Only people that just play RJ a ton all the time would have a large enough stockpile to look at that requirement and not think it was crazy. 

Other ones I thought were crazy at first look:

Cryotic - having built that weapon that took a ton, I have 7k total and infrequently replenish the supply. 3k cost is nuts.

Basically all other Bile resources as well

Gallium

Probably most other RJ resources since I don't really like farming for them

In general I hope you don't balance the costs based on outliers. Some people will easily have enough resources to cap the thing with plenty left over. No need to balance the system around them. I have 3k hours played and I don't want to spend everything I've farmed for 3k hours on one system not knowing what we'll end up needing when down the line when something new comes out. 

[Fenrir121]

I understand less now why this was pulled down to MR8. I don't think many players at that rank are going to even have the resources to spare on this. Seems a bit unfair if they waste rep and resources on something so demanding.

[RazorCure]

I still can NOT use Subsume. It does jack S#&$.

Time to come back in 6 months when this might work.