Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread

[B4HEK]

DE, PLEASE!

Remove Helminth textures from xata`s whisper, it is really annoying and i can`t understand why this is the only ability of xaku with helminth textures. https://ibb.co/PmW9D5w

[Klokwerkaos]

Helminth room does take the colors of the warframe that you paint on it For your flower garden, this is good.

The warframe stops having the colors you put on it when being subsumed and reverts to default.  This is bad (immersion breaking).

Not top priority, but should be on the list:

[Klokwerkaos]

Given that subsume puts even more strain on our builds, umbral Forma come at a premium.

I propose that:

A) any Frame subsumed reFund any umbral Forma on it

or

B) add it to the cash shop/other acquisition method.

This is especially important because investing umbral Forma in our favorite frames is a must to get the most out of them, especially now that builds will oFten require 2 umbral Forma to be able to slot in non polarity matches when changing augments or switching to another non augment polarity, which we would want to do, especially since some abilities don't have augments or would prefer a different polarity to synergize with.

What this means is if your favorite frame doesn't have a prime, you're basically screwed to wasting 2 umbral forma, which you can expect about 4 a year if you play constantly, year round, and have the power capability to achieve that (new players are basically screwed).

If/when Nidus prime makes his debut about 1 year From now, that's 2 umbral forma i will never get back and how no decent way to earn more, all because I have a favorite frame that doesn't have a prime.  It also bears mentioning that you should also be able to subsume a warFrame more than once if this is the case, because I will want to subsume the extra Nidus I Farmed up to have his larva on other frames, and I certainly won't be sacrificing my good nidus with heavy investment.

I have said this before the system came out.
I will keep saying this until you provide a solution.

 

[Fenrir121]

Master's Summons: Are you serious that it doesn't resurrect dead companions? You're replacing a warframe ability with this one, I can't understand why anyone would use it if that remains the case. There's 102 different ways to heal a companion and none to bring it back after death more than maybe once.

[Silvertap]

wrong section, sorry...

 

[ThatsSoWitty]

Honestly, the resource costs of everything with this system feel wayyyy too high. I get that it's made for vets and late game players who have millions of resources. But once you feed it as much of the alloy plates and rubedo you can until it gets bored, needing 10,000 carbides or 12,500 cubics is incredibly expensive. The bile costs make me shudder and seeing how much it costs makes the thought of subsuming every Warframe a significant drain on anyone's resources, vet or not. Even after over 3k hours, this system is not friendly in any way for casuals

I honestly think making bile into a resource needed in small amounts or not for every task in huge quantities would solve a lot of my initial issues with this

[DeeDeetheSpy]

I put Banshee's Silence on to Ivara hoping to be able to give up Navigator in exchange of putting noise suppression mods on Ivara's weapons. This is not the case. Firing weapons still cause her to drop out of invisibility.

[DudeeDew]

The costs are really weirdly balanced. Some, like open world resources, are cheap enough to not make it a chore. Starchart common resources are expensive, but fair.
But seriously, 300 hexenon? It drops in amounts of like 7-10 and quite rarely.
3k cryotic? So they really mean 30 excavators for 1 feeding is a fair amount?
And the railjack ones are a complete failure. You get like 1k-1.5k of them for a mission, if the right rewards roll for you, and DE expects you to pay 10k or more of them? I hope they will rework that aspect.

[JonnesTT]

Railjack resources... 10 THOUSAND carbides... 12.5 THOUSAND CUBIC DIODES; 15... 15 THOUSAND COPERNICS another 15 Thousand for Pustrels, 20 [CLEM]ING THOUSAND TITANIUM WHAT THE CLEM? Like 1-2 Vail runs if I remember correctly. Not fair good but doable, gives anoter reason to run giant point over anything else railjack. But Titanium? Titanium is literally the entire railjack progression system. Everything else gets dropped in excess.

oh yea 10. 10! Tellurium. 3K Cryotic not 300, 3K, 1K Frensnels, 400 Isos? 125 Mutagen sampels? Oh yea but my 3 million nano spores are gonna drain 20k at a time...

Ok if that's meant to drain our resources in preparation for an update thats gonna change the role of resources (and is lowered after just as the MR requirement was cough cough) then it's fine. But that's just not sustainable.

 

Also masters summon, I haven't tested it yet but it might be worth using in boss runs if it revived your companion and reset things like regen, or more generally if it just activated all activeable effects, beyond that it's just gonna be an ability no one uses.

[Thiadon]

Reiterating my comment from here, with a few changes after having played around with thiings a bit more:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1212921-the-helminth-dev-workshop/page/183/?tab=comments#comment-11776950

Please do not nerf abilities. We can only equip 1 per frame, and only 1 damage increase per frame, that's restriction enough to maintain balance. The reason why those abilities will be popular is that they bridge gaps in current kits for many frames, making those frames usable and competitive with the top tier frames. Just leave them as is. If you want other abilities to be more competitive, choose some of the better abilities from other frames, and boost the abilities so they are more competitive. For example:

Revenant: Give mesmer skin instead of reave.

Nova: Make it possible to recast Null Star to refresh orbs.

Then, you have 4 very good options to choose for defensive abilities, each work slightly differently. On high duration builds, you'd go for Null Star, low or mid duration, high strength and low armor, mesmer skin. High armor, Defy or Elemental Ward.

Full list of such suggested changes below:

On 2020-08-12 at 1:27 PM, [DE]Rebecca said:

WARFRAME	ABILITY	AUGMENT	Thiadon NOTES
Ash	Shuriken	Seeking Shuriken	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Atlas	Petrify	Ore Gaze	We will not create Rubble, however, we will increase base cone area to 180 degrees, adding range can increase it to 360 degrees. This increase should also be for the base ability.
Banshee	Sonar		As with other damage increasing abilities, this will replace damage increasing abilities on frames that have them.
Baruuk	Lull	Endless Lullaby	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Chroma	Elemental Ward	Everlasting Ward	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Ember	Fire Blast	Healing Flame	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Equinox	Rest & Rage	Calm & Frenzy	We will use Rest or Rage depending on your Energy Colour. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Excalibur	Radial Blind	Radiant Finish	This is probably the best option for Excalibur's existing kit, maybe increase duration and radius.
Frost	Ice Wave	Ice Wave Impede	Change ice wave to be a 360 degree aoe that does a percentage of enemy's health per tick, affected by strength, and creates a lasting frozen area which can freeze enemies walking on it over time.
Gara	Splinter storm		Gives an additional damage reduction option, Spectrorage will not get used much without Gara's other synergies.
Garuda	Blood Altar	n/a	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Gauss	Thermal Sunder	n/a	Change Thermal Sunder to be a percentage of enemy health, affected by strength. The damage on this is mediocre, and the push/pull synergy isn't all that useful.
Grendel	Nourish	n/a	Keeps the heal and give Nourish Strike only. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Harrow	Penance		Comparable to Warcry, give us Penance instead.
Hildryn	Pillage	Blazing Pillage	Drains 50 Energy instead of 50 Shield. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Hydroid	Tempest Barrage	Corroding Barrage	Change from corrosive to an armor stripping effect that can reach 100% (like Ash Shuriken) with enough power strength or enough hits. As it was before it was nerfed.
Inaros	Desiccation	Desiccation’s Curse	This has the potential to be good, but needs a boost to the amount of health you get back.
Ivara	Quiver	Empowered Quiver	Give the full ability or give us Prowl.
Khora	Ensnare	n/a	This is probably the best option. Increase radius and duration significantly.
Limbo	Banish	Rift Haven	Base Ability Change: Add ‘Cancel ability on Hold’ to let enemies out of Rift. Additional change to make the ability do damage as a percent of enemy health, which scales with power strength. The existing damage on this doesn't scale well.
Loki	Radial Disarm		Loki's kit needs a serious rework. He has not aged well. Radial disarm is the only usable ability other than invis, which it looks like you do not intend to share. On top of giving us radial disarm, also buff it to increase damage to enemies affected somewhat.
Mag	Pull	Greedy Pull	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Being able to knock enemies off balance and make them drop energy orbs is pretty helpful. Boost area of cone.
Mesa	Shooting Gallery	Muzzle Flash	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs a bit of a boost to the effect and the duration to make it competitive.
Mirage	Eclipse	Total Eclipse	As is, no nerf required.
Nekros	Terrify	Creeping Terrify	This is probably the best choice from Nekros's kit. Increase armor reduction to be able to reach 100% at 300% power strength.
Nezha	Fire Walker	Pyroclastic Flow	Change damage to be a percentage of enemy health, scaling with power strength.
Nidus	Larva	Larva Burst	As is, no nerf required. Ensnare and Pull are both competitive un-nerfed, and there are few reasons to use Larva now. Let enemies that are held by larva be hit by effects such as petrify.
Nova	Null Star	Neutron Star	Make it possible to recast Null Star to refresh orbs.
Nyx	Psychic Bolts		Psychic Bolts would have been a better choice.
Oberon	Smite	Smite Infusion	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs an increase to the % of health damage though.
Octavia	Resonator		Metronome would be a better choice, either that or change resonator to do a % of enemy health, increasing with the number of enemies charmed.
Protea	Dispensary	n/a	As is, no nerf required. Spellbind with Spellbound Harvest & Mag Pull are both competitive as-is, although spellbind needs a bigger base radius.
Revenant	Mesmer Skin		Give mesmer skin as mentioned above.
Rhino	Roar	Piercing Roar	As is, no nerf required.
Saryn	Molt	Regen Molt	Double or triple base radius, make it do a percentage of enemy health, multiplying by the number of enemies distracted. Or give Toxic lash.
Titania	Spellbind	Spellbound Harvest	This is a good ability, people may not realize. Needs a significantly increased base radius (10m).
Trinity	Well Of Life	Pool of Life	Base Ability Buffed - Now does small amount of heal over time over a large range. If you hit the enemy, a % of the damage dealt gets converted into AoE heal. This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Valkyr	Warcry	Eternal War	As is, no nerf required.
Vauban	Tesla Nervos	Tesla Bank	This is a good ability, people may not realize.
Volt	Speed		Speed is the Volt equivalent to Warcry.
Wisp	Breach Surge	n/a	This is a decent ability, people may not realize.
Wukong	Defy	n/a	As is, no nerf required. Giving cloud walker would also be an alternative option, as much as I would hate to lose the exclusivity as a Wukong main.
Xaku	Xata’s Whisper	n/a	Can't comment.
Zephyr	Airburst	n/a	Base Ability Buffed - now has a HOLD or TAP functionality. HOLD to receive original functionality. TAP to suck enemies in a wind Vortex. This is mildly useful, needs more range.

 

And that's it. Now pretty much every ability is an attractive option, and can really help out those frames whose kits are lacking in one area or another. As for the rest, I'm MR24 and don't care when people can access Helminth.

[NightmareT12]

5 hours ago, Fenrir121 said:

Master's Summons: Are you serious that it doesn't resurrect dead companions? You're replacing a warframe ability with this one, I can't understand why anyone would use it if that remains the case. There's 102 different ways to heal a companion and none to bring it back after death more than maybe once.

You can use the ability on pets when they're down and heal them 100%, which isn't that bad. I'll agree that resurrecting dead companions for an increased cost (ie: tap to heal, hold to spend more and resurrect) could see more use in this ability.

[Fenrir121]

11 minutes ago, NightmareT12 said:

You can use the ability on pets when they're down and heal them 100%, which isn't that bad. I'll agree that resurrecting dead companions for an increased cost (ie: tap to heal, hold to spend more and resurrect) could see more use in this ability.

Yea I was mainly thinking about sentinels. Once they're dead and the one time res mod ticks off they're done for the rest of however long you're out for. Its especially bad in the Isolation vaults now where I can't even bring them in without them getting wiped out by the first necramech.

[Samhel]

Farming for Bile is painful. Cryotic comes in very slowly and it eats up 3000 each time? You got to be kidding me... There is also somatic fibers and diluted thermia in there, forcing us to play 1 specific mission type, but atleast it doesn't eat up much from it. But Railjack resources? You knew DE that Railjack is dying, atleast don't force us to farm ridicoulus amount of resources from it before it get fixed somehow. 

[(PSN)DeZaruu]

19 hours ago, Lockhart77 said:

Are you guys sure you didn't put an extra 0 for asterite feeding cost? 5000 asterite for a single feeding seems too much for a resource that doesn't drop as common as coppernics and such

I came to say something similar

Is Asterite the new Hema Dojo Research mistake?

Some of the resource values you're asking for is absurd

[Bhordelik]

Let's just say this for starter : You can't experiment at will when adding ability is costing ressources and removing it to test another is forcing you to repay it.

 

I just tried restore shield on hildryn. The ability use energy in hildryn (I assume all of the others will be the same) So essentially I used ressources to add an ability I can't use. (so I de-infused it) This was a costly loss of ressources.

So Hildryn is out of the Helminth system, she can't use any subsumed ability and this is not warned anywhere.

 

Another note, the ressources cost is insane, I play since the launch and I can't sustain the costs, especially bile. And for the excretion I can pay, the amount I must feed is just impossible to farm again if I would need to feed it again to rank up more.

 

And last, since this force you infuse ability to frame just to consume excretion so that you can feed it again for ranking up. I will probably not bother up. I may change an ability or two to test things, but I won't infuse 10 frames with ability I don't need or like, so I can rank up Helminth and add more ability I might need. Infusing abilities should be more rewarding in rank up or consume more excretion of easy-to-refill categories.

tldr: this is not a ressources sink or a system to try freely new build : this is a black hole forcing you to add abilities you don't like so it can sink more of your rarest ressources

[TheGrimCorsair]

There are a lot of feeding costs that really aren't commiserate with the rarity of materials: Fresnels, Bracoid, Trachons, Asterite, Mutagen Samples, Cryotic, all seem way out of step with their rarity and availability.

I was expecting pricey but this all... more than a bit much, tbh.

[Mephane]

8 hours ago, B4HEK said:

DE, PLEASE!

Remove Helminth textures, which appears when using non-helminth injected abilities. It is really annoying.https://ibb.co/PmW9D5w

Which ability did you subsume there? Because if it happens to be Xata's Whisper, then that animation is part of the ability even on Xaku.

[B4HEK]

16 минут назад, Mephane сказал:

Which ability did you subsume there? Because if it happens to be Xata's Whisper, then that animation is part of the ability even on Xaku.

Sorry, my bad, but still, it is annoying. Also, why this is the only ability of xaku having helminth textures? What the hell?

[Mephane]

9 minutes ago, B4HEK said:

Sorry, my bad, but still, it is annoying. Also, why this is the only ability of xaku having helminth textures? What the hell?

Oh I agree, I hate that effect on Xaku as well.

[Borg1611]

Do we have to re-pay a cost if we remove infusions and then re-infuse? I feel like between leveling, subsuming and infusion costs the system is kind of completely and totally insane for people who play all the frames. People who just play a limited number of frames might not have to put in that huge of a cost, but if you wanted to play around with the system on numerous frames the costs would add up to completely insane levels. 

Honestly the entire system as-is seems like a massive scam to get even people with thousands of hours of resources to go broke and need to constantly be re-farming resources endlessly just to afford any experimentation with the system. Kind of quickly learning to hate it, and it was the only part of the update I really had much interest in originally. Not even close to being reasonable costs for what you get out of it. 

[VoadorHolandes]

I would like to ask the Devs to revise the visual effect on eclipse it is extremely buggy and ugly under certain circumstances:

First example, Zato Excalibur. Clothes are not effected.

Notice how in Mirage itself, when using prime parts on tennogen, armor detail is completely lost and only accent color is applied; notice how the effect is different in the prime helmet:

Furthermore, the effect is different if you are using a prime skin or a regular tennogen one; metallic parts become dull and unappealing (notice how mag's coils look different):

Prime parts can also behave differently, such as in this Rhino Prime:

Anyway it's a consequence of spaghetti code from when Mirage Prime was released and they changed the effect. It behaves differently from skin to skin. It also doesn't seen to work with dual emissives colors. 

In short, it looks like dogS#&$ and this crime against fashion cannot stand. I'd figured now it's the time to fix it, since now people will be using it more often. (They could also take a really good look on how the skill works because, more often than not, it doesn't!)

[Jocelin5]

There should be an option to remove an infused ability from just one config slot instead of every slot it's in. You should also be able to rearrange config slots and have the infused ability move with it. I tried to reorganize and was confused when the augment mod I had in for an infused ability got replaced by some rando mod.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Leveling up this system is kind of strange. It levels up when I feed it resources but once its full, it won't eat anymore. To make it hungry, I have to either feed it a warframe (done once a day) or spam Master's Summons on a warframe over and over again. Is it supposed to be like that? Instead of 100%, can't we just feed it resources with no cap? The warframe looks like its in pain everytime you put an ability into it.

[master_of_destiny]

So, feedback in two segments.  Segment one is bugs thus far...and that's only one flower showing up.  I've subsumed Ash and Atlas....and there's a single pink flower.  No idea what is going on there.

 

Segment two....economy.

I get it now.  Subsuming warframes is supposed to be the primary driver for this thing.  Fantastic.  It's "not time locked," but there's a 23 hour subsume timer and a complex system of resource costing.  As mentioned before, the railjack resources are nutty so I won't be touching on that again.  

Let's talk about the cost of applying abilities.  It's hugely variable per warframe, and you have no idea what is going to cost how much until you've subsumed.  I'm now looking at Ash and Atlas, who have zero overlap in resources.  No bile is used.  Both of them were cheaper than Protea to subsume.  This supports the conclusion that the cost of experimentation with the "better" abilities is going to be higher....and it's a little bit insulting.  As a side note to the people grinding, both Ash and Atlas pull resources from large and easily farmable pools.  Maybe instead of being a shot in the dark you can include these costs when we're choosing what to subsume.

After that's let's talk about the bonus fallacy.  Right now you've got negative, neutral, and positive dispositions.  I can feed the thing once, and it moves down one level.  This decreases the return, and activates a timer (about 24 hours) before it returns to one level up.  Basically, the default cost is the negative value and if you feed it twice you seem to only be able to return to the neutral value.  Is this the point of the very late in the system sentient resource consumption?  Will the permanent decrease disappear after some set time?  Well, you haven't shared with us so it's likely to be another thing we have to discover.  

Finally in the economy, you've basically stretched out the slots so we cannot reasonably hit the +3, +10, +20 levels without at least burning through some applications.  That's great....if the powers were.  Frankly it's silly to look at the balancing done so they aren't overpowered on any frame, and the basic compromise like the pet healer not allowing you to revive one.  Basically, we need to find the cheapest power using abundant resources, spam the heck out of it, and strive not to experiment but to simply level far enough to get the reset ability so the economic drain is more reasonable.  Ouch, that's pretty grindy, and structured around intentionally designed mechanics to penalize people trying to grind rather than providing a reason to wait.

 

If it isn't clear, you really need a balance pass on the costing.  You could also use the sentient resource reset much sooner.  You're basically requiring that you've taken on an Eidolon, prior to ever getting the segment, so having this so far in screams that the ramped grind will get to the point where you'll need resets simply to gather enough extra points to level up....after  more than a month of daily subsuming to get the level high enough to matter and with all of the abilities available.  It's hopefully going to be evaluated, but right now I literally have no hope about this system not devolving into a painful slog that is technically unlimited.  That said, the penalties for unlimited grind will eventually be so severe as to deplete gigantic pools of item and that's obviously the goal here.  You want impatient people to eat debuffs, and frankly it's a transparent attempt to destroy inventories, while generating constant daily engagement for more than a month.  Not a good look.

[(XBOX)BARLEYDAWG]

I've noticed that most of the abilities offered from the helminth use Calx and Bile both of which have 9 available resources to choose from (as opposed to Biotics has 18 and it's barely used) which makes it harder to level up and restock the helminth. For this, I'd suggest changing the recipes so that there is more variety to make the depletion of helminth resources more even. In regards to the Sentient Appetite, I think that the three resources should boost different resources and that it should give 100% instead of just 50% to make it a little more useful and give players a little more control in increasing the helminth's appetite.