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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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So, feedback in two segments.  Segment one is bugs thus far...and that's only one flower showing up.  I've subsumed Ash and Atlas....and there's a single pink flower.  No idea what is going on there.

 

Segment two....economy.

I get it now.  Subsuming warframes is supposed to be the primary driver for this thing.  Fantastic.  It's "not time locked," but there's a 23 hour subsume timer and a complex system of resource costing.  As mentioned before, the railjack resources are nutty so I won't be touching on that again.  

Let's talk about the cost of applying abilities.  It's hugely variable per warframe, and you have no idea what is going to cost how much until you've subsumed.  I'm now looking at Ash and Atlas, who have zero overlap in resources.  No bile is used.  Both of them were cheaper than Protea to subsume.  This supports the conclusion that the cost of experimentation with the "better" abilities is going to be higher....and it's a little bit insulting.  As a side note to the people grinding, both Ash and Atlas pull resources from large and easily farmable pools.  Maybe instead of being a shot in the dark you can include these costs when we're choosing what to subsume.

After that's let's talk about the bonus fallacy.  Right now you've got negative, neutral, and positive dispositions.  I can feed the thing once, and it moves down one level.  This decreases the return, and activates a timer (about 24 hours) before it returns to one level up.  Basically, the default cost is the negative value and if you feed it twice you seem to only be able to return to the neutral value.  Is this the point of the very late in the system sentient resource consumption?  Will the permanent decrease disappear after some set time?  Well, you haven't shared with us so it's likely to be another thing we have to discover.  

Finally in the economy, you've basically stretched out the slots so we cannot reasonably hit the +3, +10, +20 levels without at least burning through some applications.  That's great....if the powers were.  Frankly it's silly to look at the balancing done so they aren't overpowered on any frame, and the basic compromise like the pet healer not allowing you to revive one.  Basically, we need to find the cheapest power using abundant resources, spam the heck out of it, and strive not to experiment but to simply level far enough to get the reset ability so the economic drain is more reasonable.  Ouch, that's pretty grindy, and structured around intentionally designed mechanics to penalize people trying to grind rather than providing a reason to wait.

 

If it isn't clear, you really need a balance pass on the costing.  You could also use the sentient resource reset much sooner.  You're basically requiring that you've taken on an Eidolon, prior to ever getting the segment, so having this so far in screams that the ramped grind will get to the point where you'll need resets simply to gather enough extra points to level up....after  more than a month of daily subsuming to get the level high enough to matter and with all of the abilities available.  It's hopefully going to be evaluated, but right now I literally have no hope about this system not devolving into a painful slog that is technically unlimited.  That said, the penalties for unlimited grind will eventually be so severe as to deplete gigantic pools of item and that's obviously the goal here.  You want impatient people to eat debuffs, and frankly it's a transparent attempt to destroy inventories, while generating constant daily engagement for more than a month.  Not a good look.

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I've noticed that most of the abilities offered from the helminth use Calx and Bile both of which have 9 available resources to choose from (as opposed to Biotics has 18 and it's barely used) which makes it harder to level up and restock the helminth. For this, I'd suggest changing the recipes so that there is more variety to make the depletion of helminth resources more even. In regards to the Sentient Appetite, I think that the three resources should boost different resources and that it should give 100% instead of just 50% to make it a little more useful and give players a little more control in increasing the helminth's appetite.

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8 hours ago, Bhordelik said:

I just tried restore shield on hildryn. The ability use energy in hildryn (I assume all of the others will be the same) So essentially I used ressources to add an ability I can't use. (so I de-infused it) This was a costly loss of ressources.

The ability worked just fine for me. Iirc, energy cost is converted into shield cost at 100% (which in general is cheaper than her innate abilities) so any ability from the helminth should work.

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To make Perspicacity more worthwhile (And to move away from the potential 'This ability has a 75% chance to not do anything'), it should scale in number of skipped hacks. IE: Your next 1/2/3/4 hacks are automatic.

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il y a une heure, (XB1)BARLEYDAWG a dit :

The ability worked just fine for me. Iirc, energy cost is converted into shield cost at 100% (which in general is cheaper than her innate abilities) so any ability from the helminth should work.

In the subsume window, the ability show a 50 energy drain. After infusing it, it shows a 350 energy drain. And when I tried to use it, I just got the unsufficient energy level message. This is unusable. Maybe it works for other ability, but not Restore shields. (And I won't test since I got burned once already)

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On 2020-08-21 at 3:54 PM, SilverBones said:

The Helminth system is here! We would love to hear your feedback regarding the Helminth system itself, including resource costs, functionality, ease of use, and anything else centered around your most squishy ship resident.

If you have feedback to leave on the subject of The Helminth System, then please do so in this thread. Please remember that you should keep your feedback constructive and civil. If you like an aspect of the new content, tell us what you like. If you do not like an aspect, then tell us why, and what you would change to make it better!

Please bear in mind this is not a place to leave bugs you discover while playing. If you do need to report a bug, please use the dedicated Heart of Deimos Bug-Hunting thread!

Thank you!
 

Copy and paste, feel free to delete my linked post:

Let us infuse more than one ability (idea)

We could have some kind of category for the skills and then be allowed to use one of each at least ( also maybe forcing to keep an original one).

So 3 skills from different categories and 1 original

Maybe lead to some balance issues? I dont know, make 2 from different categories and 2 original.

Imo this system doesn't look thaaat fun the way it is now - Plus I couldn't even band-aid fix some frames in serious need of rework (cof cof hydroid) lol - But serious, for sure a single infuse skill will be amazing for some frames (Larva Protea?) but kinda mediocre for some others. Plus it could give us reason to subsume more than the tier A frame's abilities and create more combos and fun ways to play missions. =/

 

Maybe if we had categories it could be something like this (just an idea):

Damage  

Helminth - Expedite suffering
Helminth - Marked for Death
Ash - Shuriken
Frost - Ice Wave
Gara - Spectrorage
Gayss - Thermal Sunder
Hildryn - Pillage
Hydroid - Tempest Barrage
Inaros - Disiccation
Limbo - Banish
Mag - Pull (or utility?)
Nezha - Fire Walker
Nyx - Mind Control
Oberon - Smite
Octavia - Resonator
Revenant - Reave
Vauban - Tesla Bank
Volt - Shock
Wukong - Defy
Zephyr - Airbust


Buff

Helminth - Empower
Chroma - Elemental Ward  
Grandel - Nourish Strike
Mesa - Shooting Gallery
Mirage - Eclipse
Rhino - Roar
Valkyr - Warcry
Wisp - Breach Surge
Xaku - Xata's Whisper

 

Utility

Helminth - Perspicacity
Helminth - Energized Munitions
Helminth - Infested Mobility
Helminth - Rebuild Shields
Helminth - Master's Summons
Atlas - Petrify
Banshee - Silence
Baruuk - Lullaby
Ember - Fire Blast
Excalibur - Radial Blind
Garuda - Blood Altar
Harrow - Condemn
Khora - Ensnare
Ivara - Quiver
Loki - Decoy
Nekros - Terrify
Nidus - Larva Burst
Nova - Null Star
Protea - Dispensary
Saryn - Molt
Titania - Spellbind
Trinity - Well of Life

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2 hours ago, (XB1)BARLEYDAWG said:

I've noticed that most of the abilities offered from the helminth use Calx and Bile both of which have 9 available resources to choose from (as opposed to Biotics has 18 and it's barely used) which makes it harder to level up and restock the helminth. For this, I'd suggest changing the recipes so that there is more variety to make the depletion of helminth resources more even. In regards to the Sentient Appetite, I think that the three resources should boost different resources and that it should give 100% instead of just 50% to make it a little more useful and give players a little more control in increasing the helminth's appetite.

Depends on the ability. Putting Smite on a WF takes 80% Biotics for example 

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Subsume system really brings to light the disparity in some of the abilities, their effectiveness, and their costs.

Ex.: Contrast Ensnare with Vortex.

Vortex: 15s, 10m, 100 energy.
Ensnare: 15s, 10m, 50 energy.

Both disable and pull enemies into a tight grouping.
Essentially, I'm better off junking Vaub's ult, for Khora's 2.
(Since Bastille inevitably collapses to a Vortex anyways, you have to always treat it as a Vortex at some point, regardless.. making it dangerous and reckless to use centered on a defense point.. as it just brings enemies to it, and lets them go.)

Hydroid's Tidal Surge could be replaced by Reave as a straight upgrade, too.
Tidal Surge: 6m striking radius, 300dmg Impact/Slash, 50 energy.
Reave: 6m striking radius, stealth 8% hp/shield which can make a Massive difference in late game, 50 energy.

Fireblast: one quick wave requires LOS, 200 dmg.. 75 energy (For Pete's sakes! Ember's energy costs are atrocious!)
Thermal Sunder.. Persistent (shrinking) area 15s, 1500 dmg/s.. 50 energy.

Take a good look at the abilities that don't stack up, and improve from there.
(And for the love of all that is good, make Ember's Fireblast cost So much less if it's going to be so utterly kneecapped AND necessary to spam... Really. Seriously, really. Jeeeez.)

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12 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:

Ex.: Contrast Ensnare with Vortex.

Vortex: 15s, 10m, 100 energy.
Ensnare: 15s, 10m, 50 energy.

Both disable and pull enemies into a tight grouping.
Essentially, I'm better off junking Vaub's ult, for Khora's 2.
(Since Bastille inevitably collapses to a Vortex anyways, you have to always treat it as a Vortex at some point, regardless.. making it dangerous and reckless to use centered on a defense point.. as it just brings enemies to it, and lets them go.)

I get what you're going for, but you've got this one the wrong way around. Bastille/Vortex is FAR better than Ensnare. The latter is much, MUCH slower, often doesn't work because, AFAIK, the primary target is not damage immune and will likely die before the effect works, and that's not even counting Bastille, which strips enemy armour (Really big value in that), gives it to Vauban, and suspends enemies nearly motionlessly, opening them up to easy headshots. 

It is, however, true that a ton of abilities are simply not competitive and need VERY big and very intrusive buffs.

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So I have just unlocked the Helminth System, so far overall it seems just about all fine, but there is quite a bit of feedback so far.

TIMERS: The time-to-wait to subsume each warframe seems out-right stupid by every metric. There is no need for it in any shape, the reason behind this is not only highly unnecessary, it's only gonna stop players from "playing" until they get what they want, I can care less if DE try to "prevent players from burning through everything" it doesn't work and is pitiful excuse.

RESOURCE COST: This needs to be reduced by alteast 75%, Railjack Resources and "Rare" are completely out of wack and need to be fixed, while I understand that you are suppose to feed him as he desires (an balanced diet) and -only- what he wishes, However, this DOES NOT excuse the amount, the same argument is the above, trying to stop players from "Burn Out" is once more a pitiful excuse and no longer works. 

Sub-Slots: Remove the Slots, we do not need more slots to prevent us from getting more stuff, but to be fair that goes for all type of slots, as all they are designed for is milking wallets.

Edited by Circle_of_Psi
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2 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

I get what you're going for, but you've got this one the wrong way around. Bastille/Vortex is FAR better than Ensnare. The latter is much, MUCH slower, often doesn't work because, AFAIK, the primary target is not damage immune and will likely die before the effect works, and that's not even counting Bastille, which strips enemy armour (Really big value in that), gives it to Vauban, and suspends enemies nearly motionlessly, opening them up to easy headshots. 

It is, however, true that a ton of abilities are simply not competitive and need VERY big and very intrusive buffs.

You bring up good points, and these are of course my personal takes on comparing those abilities.. Vortex especially is Gluttonous in it's energy expense. Should/Can he put out 100 energy every 15s just to whittle down armor, when he could use heat/corrosive/shattering impact/Corrosive Projection for free? I can't see it fit to use Corrosive Projection on him Because of his energy expense. Should he be endlessly spamming Zenurik dash or energy pizzas.. (which is a playstyle I just can't get behind) to contrive a Rube Goldberg machine to strip some armor over time? Sure, it can be paired with his augment for his 3.. which, same as Ensnare, if the enemies die first, you're up the creek.. so that's kinda solo or invite only viable with consistency..

Moral of the story: Holy crap, these energy costs.. and often also, these antiquated stats. 2s of an Ignis from a frame wearing Corrosive Projection is free.. Vaub deserves better.

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I think it’d be nice if it was faster to subsume frames. Shortening the timer to 12h would be a godsend, or letting us subsume more than frame at once (perhaps as a reward for ranking up helminth? Like whenever you unlock more subsume slots)

also wouldn’t be opposed to being able to rush it with plat, but that’s because I’m a terrible whale.

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Some of the resource categories for feeding helminth need looking at as well. Particularly the ones in Bile and Pheromone, and Empyrean resources in general. As someone who does a lot of railjack, even I don’t have enough materials consistently for some of what it wants heh

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42 minutes ago, Colyeses said:

It is, however, true that a ton of abilities are simply not competitive and need VERY big and very intrusive buffs

This is why we have helminth. I don’t know whose idea it was to put spellbind in Helminth, but this is the ability that I gave up in all configurations. I hope that the DEs will collect statistics and finally start picking up weak abilities such as mind control.

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Seams people going on about "It removed the cyst!, and now door won't open!" didn't actually unlock the helminth system before they sat in the chair >_>.


But for feedback, definitely Bile needs a second pass, other categorys seam fine, but in Bile there is time sensitive resource that you can't stockpile, several railjack resources that generally are very costly compared to regular resources, 1 drop from a specific enemie on a specific mission on a specific planet (WTF?!), an unreasonable amount of cryotic (I'm never getting that hammer), a periodic event-limited resource and no "resource sink" type of resource available.

So most will probably be stuck on giving it a "balanced" diet of Morphics and sludge and starving it between feeds to get that green up arrow.
Even better, subsuming frames and all ability transfers so far i've unlocked costs bile + 2 of the other types to do -.-

Possible suggestions would be adding a resource sink to bile.
Lowering the amounts needed for that category.
Getting a small amount of bile when feeding other resources.
Being able to convert some of other categories to bile at a % ratio.
Rebalance costs so using the hemlinth system, bile would be the rarest to be required instead of needed for everything! (Hell! make nothing except those nerfed abilities DE is scared of cost bile!).

So i've given my feedbak and some suggestions for how it can be addressed. Now I'm of to stare at all my 1-3days build/subsume timers or something.

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Feeding costs regarding Railjack resources and other rares (especially thermia) are insanely exaggerated, should be toned down to 1/5 at least. This from a player with thousands of hours, many of them with a resource booster active. One single click of fresnels or titanium burned 1/5 of my overall stockpile. And this from a player that playtested Railjack for you from day 1 up to all intrinsics to 10. Cannot imagine the reaction from a normal player.

Resource consumption and the associated grind is not even among the secretion categories: bile, required almost everywere, requires outrageous amount of rares that are a pain slow slog to obtain; biotics is almost only plant scans (Serioulsy, plant scans? Didn't this minigame collect enough disdain?). Finally, the possibility to use sentient resources to reset hunger is locked behind 8 ranks, really too late to be honest.

I sincerely tought that the helmint system was a way to say "thank you veteran players for playing and supporting the game since so many years, here you go, use your stockpiles to experiment and have fun". As it looks right now is a discouragement to even continue to play. The perspective of having to just go back with a looter frame and repeat the hema grind for dozen of other resources for experimenting just makes me want to quit. 

Do you realize that experimenting involves trying, failing and re-trying? That not all combinations of warframes-abilities may provide the desired results? You don't even tested all of them for bugs and exploits, we're doing the job for you. Should i really be punished with 30 hours of re-farming for a single bad attempt? 

As it stands now, i just look forward for a serious cost rework.

Also: the prospect of farming again frames like Khora, Harrow, Nidus to subsume them is disheartening. Recycling the absolutely worst farming experiences that this game offered in the years is not a honest move toward any kind of player. Do you have plans to revise the most negatively perceived farms for these frames? At least for who already mastered them?

Edited by DebrisFlow
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seriously... do away with the nerfs on the utility powers... even with the nerfs on buff powers theres still no real choice. but undoing the nerfs on utility abilities like quiver, dispensary and larva will give players at least a couple non buff abilities worth using.

 

also all the lackluster abilities still need the promised buffs. while i understand those could take more time to figure out the undoing of unnecessary utility nerfs should be quick and easy.

Edited by SweetAnubis
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So far subsumed Nidus and Larva became insanely helpful on few frames (Ember and Nekros are so fun to play with it).

Chroma is almost cooked, 3h to find out how Elemental Ward works on others.

But did enyone subsume Ember? I have a great armor reduction build on Ember but there is absolutely NO info how it works without a meter. Did anyone play around with it and can tell?

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27 minutes ago, Revonth said:

The Helminth System is very fun to use but the only problem is the resource cost is just too much followed by the "appetite" system which doesn't make sense to me sometimes.

Resources fed have four states: Liked, neutral, disliked and hated. Based on how much Helminth likes what you give it (as in hidden rotation based on what was recently given) you get more Helminth XP and more % fill depending on how much he likes resource.

Liked (30%) - 200xp

Neutral (15%) - 100xp

Disliked (7%) - 46xp

Hated (3%) - 20xp

Subsuming Warframes gives only 1600 XP so best way to go is feed, inject ability, feed, override ability with new one, repeat.

Fun fact: Filling one resource category from 0 to 100% gives 666 XP

 

Edited by Wawus
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* Rare Resources for Helminth are ridiculous - even for veteran standards.

* Time gating on donating warframes is absurd - 40+ days just sitting around- for what exaclty? so you can claim ppl still care about the "new content"

* The seriglass Shard from grandmother - is WAY over priced when required to craft two mediocre weapons - that you already had to get resources to craft the components of. now you have to get hundreds of son/daughter/mother/father tokens to trade in for grandmother tokens for which you need 40 to craft two weapons.  And all that token exchanging is time gated too. A week in and still just have 7 grandmother tokens and no way to get more because its gated behind son and otak tokens, that are gated for exchange - and thats even assuming I could stomach another 40 hours of mining and conservation.

 

 

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I was creaming for the subsume system, but what was that? just one transferable ability per warframe? we can´t even choose which one, I was told rhino would have roar, yes, but also IRON SKIN. Frost has only the ice wave as transferable, who uses that? globe is where it´s at, I´d gladly subsume multiple of a same warframe just to get other skills, but as it is now, Imma try to stop the subsume process on my rhino and just stay away until something more is added to this system

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MR29 Vet here that had a huge stockpile of resource ....  I say "had" because I already am starting to feel depleted after three days with the system.

  • Overall the number of resources per click when feeding helminth are way too high. Some notable examples are Copernics. I had like 120000 of them three days ago, today I noticed I now have only 50000 ... all because each time I click it, it eats up 15000 at a time !. It's very possible a new player will end up consuming his entire stock of copernics in a single click with how the current system is set up, a problem not isolated to copernics. You should never consume more than 500 of a resource per click (yet there's currently 20000 resources a click ones).
  • The resource families are uneven. You have some with have tons of super common resources most vets have 6 Millions of , other where it's all rare organic materials most players only have hundreds of... And of course every time I eat a frame it depletes the "hard to earn" column instead of the categories where I have millions of spares.
  • Really hate the "helminth must be fed new resources he hasn't eaten recently" mechanics. Why do I have to feed it stuff I can't spare ? Why can't I simply offload my six million nano spore stockpile ? The percentage get so low on resources after a while it feels like I'm feeding him hundred of thousands of common resources for small 3% increases.
  • I went to the trouble of farming 43 spare frames for the system, yet now that I see the costs, i can hardly seem myself feeding more than ten frames to it... It's just way too expensive in it's current form. I'm not burning up my entire stockpile of hard earned resources acquired over 7 years of playing in a month of subsuming frames , no thanks !

There's a discussion to be had on the reasoning behind the system. I know DE's always been annoyed at some players having huge stockpile of resources, to which I myself say ... It wasn't really a problem. Nobody enjoys farming resources. The best kind of resource progression is when you get enough resources to craft the stuff you need passively while doing activities....Like if I now have to run dedicated nekros farming groups  on specific endless tiles for hours to replenish my stockpile of resources due to helminth eating my stock, I swear I'm quitting the game right now ! There's already way too much grind and effort to put in this game , last thing I want is the developers making me waste everything I earned for 7 years so they can "motivate" me to refarm 200000 nanospores again every week !

Sucks because the system in itself is great. The mechanic of building frames, feeding them to the ship, putting new abilities, it's all great, I just hate the costs associated with feeding it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My solutions:

1 - Entirely remove the consumption of ressources when subsuming a warframe (or lower it dramatically). I'm already feeding it a frame, why do I also have to feed it half a million of my hard earned ressources a day over a period of 44 days ?

2 - Keep much smaller cost for putting abilities on your warframes. Makes sense to have to pay to change an ability, but it shouldn't break your bank each time you experiment with the system.

3 - Perhaps drop the subsume countdown to 12 hours. Kinda sucks waiting a whole day to be able to feed it again.

4 - Lower the numbers of ressources fed per click to much smaller numbers. Players should not misclick on a resource and spend 20000 of a resource they only had 40000 of. Ideally cap it at 500 even for super common resources to protect players from misclicks.

5 - Also drop the helminth preference system, or at least make it so you still get a decent % increase on common stuff you're constantly feeding him with. Thought the goal of the system was to give an use to some of those specific ressource stocplikes vet had accrued, not bleed them dry of stuff they have very little of because of the green triangle. You should never get to 3% increase per feed, should always stay 25% feed at least, so people can actually burn their six million stockpiles for once.

6 - Rebalance the ressource families so that all of them have their own ferrite / nano spore / uber common ressource for an easy feed... Or lower the numbers by a huge margin on those rarer categories (one consumed per click).

7 - Take into account the fact people play different content and as such, have different ressources. Someone spending half their day on hydron will have different ressources that someone playing RJ all day. Some people love archwing, some people hate farming cryotic, etc. If you decide Helminth craves Cryotic, but I hate playing excavation, we have a problem... Hence the need to drop the whole "helminth wants X ressource and not Y" as said above.

8 - There's tons of clutter in our inventories like orokin cyphers and expired nightwave credits, why not add them in there ? Heck , I would even feed it some of my thousands of relics if I could. Why can't i feed it my gazilion oberon sets ?

Edited by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra
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Loving the helminth systems so far, but I have come to some potential problems regarding feeding it.

1. The appetite system as it is is kinda bad. There are times when you will have almost all resources in a category be unfavorable to the helminth. You can feed it sentient resources to reset its appetite, but not until rank 8. Ideally, having the unfavorable status decrease over time may help alleviate these issues until rank 8.

2. Is it just me, or are the amounts of railjack resources needed to feed the helminth rather large? For example, Fresnels are a rare railjack resource, but you need 1,000 per feeding of them. 100 per feeding seems more reasonable to me in this case, but that's just my opinion.

Bear in mind I just started this (3rd warframe subsuming right now) so maybe this is just the growing pains phase. Anyone else having these issues?

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21 minutes ago, IvanIceSpike said:

I was creaming for the subsume system, but what was that? just one transferable ability per warframe? we can´t even choose which one, I was told rhino would have roar, yes, but also IRON SKIN. Frost has only the ice wave as transferable, who uses that? globe is where it´s at, I´d gladly subsume multiple of a same warframe just to get other skills, but as it is now, Imma try to stop the subsume process on my rhino and just stay away until something more is added to this system

you were creaming?

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