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Heart of Deimos: The Helminth System Feedback Megathread


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Having 10 LVL of helminth, I want to say that I am also dissatisfied with the amount of some resources consumed, it should be reduced, since it takes a lot of resources to consume the warframe and implant named abilities.

The Marked for Death ability must also deal damage based on the maximum health of the marked enemy. (75% base damage, up to 100% with strength).

Expedite suffering is supplemented with fire and gas statuses and has an accelerated execution time.

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I was so excited for this and have to say I am incredibly disappointed.

  • The resource buckets are frustrating because there's so many categories.
  • Some are over used such as Bile but have terrible choices for how to replenish them. 
  • Amounts are terribly balanced, especially Railjack resource numbers which no one I know can cover even one chunk of. 
  • Resource costs to even apply abilities kills experimentation and fun. 
  • Like I don't want to stare at excavators for the next month to keep subsuming frames. 

Disappointed with a system that had lots of potential. Hope this can be addressed quickly. 

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When you level up your helminth it doesn't check the reward when it levels up you have to leave the chair and enter again for it to show.

This leads to confusion For the player:

Do I need to Finish the new rank to get the ability, wait?  Why do I have that ability now?  I thought I didn't have it?

Should update right when it levels.

Shown After sitting back in the chair, didn't think to SS it before.  Should be easily reproduced since I believe this happened every single level up.

kY65Gki.jpg

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The Helminth system is such a good idea. I was more excited for the Helminth system than any update to the game that I can remember. I was looking forward to it ever since it was announced, playing more than I have in a long time, thinking about what I wanted to do with it, watching videos, etc. I still think the basic idea is great, even if some of the ability choices were kind of iffy and pointless.

But the way it's set up has very rapidly sapped my interest in this update.

First the pre-emptive nerfs to some of the most attractive abilities, which still feel pointless when the nerfed abilities are still obviously the best choices in a lot of cases, and you can still just play the frames that have the base abilities and be even more powerful. But whatever. Not the end of the world.

Then it turned out the system was placed behind an arbitrary time gate via the Entrati instead of just being available at launch, even though subsuming was itself already time-gated. But okay, that's not the end of the world either, even if there were some particularly onerous additional barriers like requiring conservation (which was supposed to be optional).

Then it turned out I had to wait another day to actually have enough standing to buy the segment.

Then it turned out I had to wait another day for it to actually build (also, more obligatory conservation).

I don't mind having things gated, but I do mind feeling like I'm being strung along, with a constant "You should log in today because it's just around the corner! Teehee, I mean the next corner! Better log in tomorrow too ;)". This feels gross. It's fine if you want to gate it. It is not fine to use a series of hidden gates to the most hyped part of an update in order to trick people into logging in every day.

But I did eventually get it built. Then I went to subsume my first warframe and...the option wasn't there. Okay, I guess it starts at level 0 and it needs to be level 1. Fine. I'll waste resources feeding it up to level 1, even though I'm not actually interested in putting any of those first 3 abilities on anything. So I threw one of the abilities on and off of a frame a few times to level it up. That felt like a waste (another waste of my time since resources are fundamentally a product of time), but whatever.

And then I started looking at some of the costs. I've been playing Warframe for a long time. More than a thousand hours over several years. I have a pretty huge stockpile of resources (which an MR 8 player is certainly not going to have). And some of these costs are outrageous. Single donations on some of the relatively common resources are so large that for a few resources I ended up spending something like 1/4 of my entire years-long stockpile.

But okay. I got it up to rank one. Time to subsume my first warframe. And...that costs resources too?! We have to pay (with many prices that are way out of whack) to put the abilities onto warframes and to sacrifice warframes? We're already giving up an entire warframe that we already had to spend the time farming!

And then some more waiting for the subsume to actually happen.

And then more costs to actually put the subsumed ability onto anything.

In general, my experience with the Helminth, more than anything else, has really soured me on an update I was otherwise mostly enjoying. The actual effects of this system seem really fun, and I was enjoying the progress I was making with the Entrati and necramech stuff while I waited for all of these time gates too, but I think I'm probably just going to take a break and play some games that don't wring their hands quite so much about allowing me to actually access their fun systems - games that respect my time more. I'll check back to see if the costs get brought in line by updates, but frankly, that's getting pretty old too. After years of releasing everything tuned to require as much of our time and resources as possible before saying "oh whoops, our bad!" and lowering the requirements a few weeks later, after all the hyped players have already spent hours and hours unlocking things with the inflated costs and gates - it's becoming pretty hard to think that's an honest mistake that just happens to get made with every single release.

Edited by Modus-Pwnens
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I think the system is great, but there are some miscalculations that the average player is going to trip up on:

Asterite, Freshnels, several other railjack resources, apothic materials and otherwise for example wants more than a good chunk of the playerbase could even fathom to gather, and some players have probably haphazardly fed Helminth anything that had a green arrow without first looking at the cost.

Sure, you're trying to implement diminishing returns but the fact of the matter is that I'll always choose to use 5 of a resource if I have 3k than 15k of a resource that I have 300k. regardless of the percentage gained. It's just more efficient to spam the resource and maintain a safety net, than to fully expend a resource.

There are several resources missing from the system still I believe, I don't recall seeing antiserum injector fragments or Dirac.

It looks like most have touched on the sentient reset being too far into the system unnecessarily, but I'd argue Mark For Death and Empower could use a better description.

Mark for Death only spreads the damage on kill and not in general. It makes sense, but the description makes it seem like it works in general. I wouldn't be opposed to a more Anti Matter Drop sort of design, so the target is highlighted for allies so everyone focuses damage before the target explodes. Empower should also note it doesn't scale with strength if that's intentional. 

Having multiple Helminth slots seems a little...arbitrary? It takes 24 hours to subsume, and unless you only rely on daily subsumes for leveling without feeding your Helminth...you tend to not really even come close to the slot capacity. You're more likely to hit max rank before you have to worry about slots....Granted....I am actually one of the types of people the system was designed for... while others will probably be hardlocked at rank 5 or so struggling to get daily subsumes

 

Edited by Synpai
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16 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:

For when the System does get balanced (it really damm needs it) Will players be refunded, via a script?

i absolutely need this, my resource run dry , i have to grind thermal sludge everyday for bile part and plain of eidolon for calx part, it really terrible.

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23 hours ago, DeeDeetheSpy said:

I put Banshee's Silence on to Ivara hoping to be able to give up Navigator in exchange of putting noise suppression mods on Ivara's weapons. This is not the case. Firing weapons still cause her to drop out of invisibility.

bruh , silence is affected surround not yourself, and yes it drop out of invisibility, but your gunfire won't hear by enemy as long as they don't see you.

Edited by ToKeSia
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Le 30/08/2020 à 14:30, SevenMothers a dit :

Ok. No. just no!

I am currently building the Helminth system but while I wait I passed by the door with my main and it didnt open. 

It did open for a warframe that is currently sporting a hairy-follicle infection-zit that hasnt been popped.

 

so,  two things:

1. does this mean that warframes that were innoculated cannot access the Helminth system?  if it does, an option needs to be introduced to reverse the innoculation or the new Helminth system uses some form of gray strain infection that the warframe is not immune to.  Otherwise I'm going to need to re-build my main from new parts that can get infected.

 

2. Do warframes that are to be subsumed need to be able to walk in to the room? so do they need to be infected? 

 

I havent any feedback on the costs yet of subsuming or abilities.

Costs to build and requirements to unlock are fine imho. so, it takes some following a storyline. no harm.  players always have the choice not to take up the new system if they dont want to.

Ok, sorry to self cite but to answer my own concern

 

1. innoculated warframes can access the helminth system once it is built. I did have a brown-undy moment when the door would not open for my main frame (see what I did there?) but it turns out it was because the claimed helminth module had not triggered the waypoint. log out, log back in and yays!

 

2. because it opens for all, mastery level 0 warframes that still have that new warframe pleather smell can indeed be subsumed

 

yes, they cost a bit to subsume through the "feed me Seymour" process but there are multiple options so if you dont have enough of one rare resource you might be able to feed it a less rare one in larger quantity. I'm sure there is some mechanic that will cause a tough decision to be made in the future but that just means you need to plan and not go into a frame-mulching frenzy.

yes, lower mastery players will struggle with resources but with the complains that MR 8 is too low maybe the resource requirement will act as a filter on that and mean MR 8 players will have actually have had to play and not just speed levelled up to 8 to get access.  

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2 hours ago, (PS4)iheartcampersz said:

So ive infused ivara's quiver, it needs the cycle option above the ability cause idk which arrow im picking and i only want the dashwire anywho

Tap it for Cloak Arrow, Hold it for Noise arrow. Those are the only two available 

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Helminth system is WAY too expensive for experimentation, ontop of the timegate, resource sink and rank restrictions. Even as a Veteran - having to dump 20.000 of resource X feels like a mistake. Just because we have over a million of nano spores, doesnt justify the immense cost of 90% of the resources. (The amount of openworld resources from PoE / Fortuna / HoD seem fine, as players are able to acquire them while doing other stuff - farming for Cryotic on the other hand is very focused)
Everthing in HoD seems stretched out to delay the content as much as possible, at the cost of actual fun and smooth gameplay. 

  • Subsuming should be MUCH cheaper and on a shorter timer (12h?)

  • Infusing an ability onto a frame should be very cheap, if not just free to encourage experimentation

  • Resource cost of feeding Helminth should also be cut down by a large amount

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As someone already stated before, infusing an ability onto a frame should be very cheap, if not free. Having to sink a metric ton of materials each time I want to swap a warframe's ability feels very restrictive, and leaves little room for free, easy experimentation.

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1 hour ago, Nilgreed said:

Helminth system is WAY too expensive for experimentation, ontop of the timegate, resource sink and rank restrictions. Even as a Veteran - having to dump 20.000 of resource X feels like a mistake. Just because we have over a million of nano spores, doesnt justify the immense cost of 90% of the resources. (The amount of openworld resources from PoE / Fortuna / HoD seem fine, as players are able to acquire them while doing other stuff - farming for Cryotic on the other hand is very focused)
Everthing in HoD seems stretched out to delay the content as much as possible, at the cost of actual fun and smooth gameplay. 

  • Subsuming should be MUCH cheaper and on a shorter timer (12h?)

  • Infusing an ability onto a frame should be very cheap, if not just free to encourage experimentation

  • Resource cost of feeding Helminth should also be cut down by a large amount

Some veteran told me this, it just 30% of his resource (lv 10 helminth + multiple subsume) so i guess there are casual veteran and hardcore veteran.

Edited by ToKeSia
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Just want to add to the chorus of reduced prices for feeding the helminth. Rail Jack and a few of the other resources are way to high for consumption. As for the other common complaint: it takes too long... Can we throw plat at  the timer please for subsuming? Saw so many streamers dump plat on fast tracking helminth build time if you had of added subsume timer skip you'd make more cash for your F2P game. Just sayin. Keep it consistent. Also weren't there hints that if i took a power and slotted it into a 4th slot i'd get a bump in power on whatever was slotted there unless it was already a 4th? Thought I heard that mentioned early on in the mix. So a Nidus Larve replacing a Zephyr Nado might be bigger or have a bigger pull range modifier.

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I have a suggestion about the looks of the room. Everytime you sac a warframe if would be kool if a little piece of the warframe you just sacrificed would become part of the room kinda like the Flying dutchman was in the Pirates of the Caribbean movies.

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7 hours ago, Wawus said:

So far subsumed Nidus and Larva became insanely helpful on few frames (Ember and Nekros are so fun to play with it).

Chroma is almost cooked, 3h to find out how Elemental Ward works on others.

But did enyone subsume Ember? I have a great armor reduction build on Ember but there is absolutely NO info how it works without a meter. Did anyone play around with it and can tell?

I did it.  It's pretty cool.  It only scales range and the lame base damage.  You get a straight up 75% armor reduction that doesn't seem to stack if you spam the power.  So not bad, but not great.

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Feeding costs for all Railjack resources as well as Hexenon and Cryotic are too much, some of them have over 10x cost of what feel fitting but 5k Asterite is just silly.

Overall (even without the above costs) Helminth is too expensive for experimentation, I'm probably going to focus on 5 or so good abilities and forget about the rest.

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Sidenote:

Looking at some basic resources for feeding the Helminth.
The very first rare resources of the Starchart - Morphics, Neurodes and Neural sensors - all within the same "tier" and "availability":

- Morphics: Helminth requires 40 to feed
- Neurodes: Helminth requires to 15 feed
- Neural sensors: Helminth requires 25 to feed

Those numbers seem very arbitrary and inconsistent

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The Bile feed category needs some serious rebalancing to be more inline with the other categories. Currently Bile has no real "abundance" resource tied to it i.e one that vets would have large amounts of that you can simply sacrifice for the 3% feeding when the other more rare resources are unwanted. And given the costs of things tied to Bile, it really needs to have an "abundance" dump resource to pick from.

Not only does subsuming cost a crapload of Bile, but slotting also costs a massive amount of Bile in comparison to everything else. So Bile is at a massive drawback by first having no dump resources to chose from, it also has massive costs tied to that specific category. Then there are some category with gods know how many easily obtained "rare" resources along with one or more "abundance" dump resource.

There should logically be a dump resource for each single category since we have both common and uncommon resources to use that are fairly easy to obtain, yet some categories sit with several of those, leaving none for the others.

 

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14 hours ago, (XB1)BARLEYDAWG said:

The ability worked just fine for me. Iirc, energy cost is converted into shield cost at 100% (which in general is cheaper than her innate abilities) so any ability from the helminth should work.

The game does make you think it won't work, because for example in the ability screen the ability cost is shown in energy and RED and when you start a mission it's unavailable until you have less than full shields.

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Feeding costs

  • 100% agree with the costs - namely Railjack - being very high. Railjack missions aren't really farming missions, they're kill and get out. Looks like mat costs finally being addressed but only the Railjack part.
  • Bile is painful to fill, the only "oh yeah I have excess"-type material I've had in there is Thermal Sludge. Argon is fine too. 30 extractors for 1 feeding I'm not sold on... as time goes on less and less playerbase has that veteran cryotic glut stockpile (tm) that DE seems really determined to get rid of. Also Thermia is godawful boring to farm and it comes from only one place.
  • Helminth needs to be able to consume a wider variety. What about cut fish parts or gems/ores?

Subsuming costs/system

  • The continued cost for switching abilities discourages playing around and trying more fun builds. Make the costs one for applying an ability one and done or something per Warframe, or per ability per Warframe.
  • Although it's acknowledged in-game, it's kind of a bummer some Warframes actually require most abilities to get the most out of their kit, while others have a straight up bad ability that can be replaced with much less of a "sacrifice". It is what it is I guess.
  • Lack of information in general when subsuming. Even more frustrating considering the costs. I know this game relies on the wiki but unless I was missing something I had no idea that Fire Blast was capped 75% reduction until I saw the tooltip on my frame after subsuming. Also no word on how powers which rely on special passives or meters work? Again, It's frustrating to spend resources to add an ability just to figure out if it works properly or what's changed about it.
  • Why is the cost for subsuming certain Warframes so different? ..Why is there a cost at all?
  • I thought undesirable powers would be buffed as said in workshop but the only real buff I saw was Well of Life (no, I'm not counting Airburst). Why would anyone choose Decoy over Molt?

Other

  • The Helminth system is exciting. I like the idea of being able to get rid of a trash ability for something fun or useful, but there shouldn't be straight trash abilities in the first place. Hoping the Helminth system will not turn out to be a bandaid on garbage abilities rather than what is deserved - tweaks or power reworks.
  • Instead of feeding a flat number, I would rather Helminth have click-and-hold to feed, sort of like when you level up Railjack intrinsics (?). The longer you hold the faster the feeding accelerates like from x/sec to xx/sec to xxx/sec, and when Helminth switches craving stage it auto stops. Not sure how well it would work in practice but it allows you to more evenly distribute feeding resources so I'm not chunking 3k cryotic a click.
  • I would really like to see the Helminth system be extended to passives.
Edited by ldegroodt115
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