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Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread


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17 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

The few catches you need to do with the bird is going to take like 10 minutes

I have just tested it. I cought all 5 of them and it took me 8 minutes (including entering the openworld and exiting)

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19 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Why not in Demios? Again, specifically the conservation.

Several reasons actually.

1) It was a new thing in Fortuna and vast majority of people love it. They loved it since the begining, especially the floofs.
2) It is a great plot point in the quest and has a great thematic/lore reason to exist.
3) It is ironically the most reliable farm (from the trio mining,fishing,conservation) 
     - mining is rng
     - fishing is complex with rng mixed in
     - you always target farm for the creature, so you got what you need in 5 minutes

Apart form the birds I did a few moments ago to prove that it takes 10 minutes (I can post screenshot as a prove)

I have yet to go ouside and actually do the conservation. I have NOT done it on purpose. I have accidentally hit few creatures with my Pyrana and just picked them up. And I already have 7 Son's tokens. Where exactly is the problem? 😄

P.S. We all agree that the requirements are a bit too harsh for an average player. THAT'S WHY DE WILL FIX IT IN THE NEXT HOTFIX.
 

Edited by Cerikus
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I feel they need to open more paths to the walled off content.  The problem is there are so many activities now in Warframe that some % of people are guaranteed to absolutely hate some of them.  I, for example hate mining, fishing and conservation.  When you force these activities upon me, I do not have fun playing.  10 minutes, 5 minutes, 5 hours doesn't really matter - the game should not be a chore at any point.

It's nice that there's a zillion things to do in game now, but not having options defeats the purpose of having choices.  Let the people who want to kill stuff kill stuff, and let the people who want to fish fish.  Don't force the murder hobos to fish, and don't force the fishermen to kill stuff.  It's pretty simple.  I will happily kill 100,000 of the new centipedes not to have to fish or conserve for 15 minutes.  As soon as I'm forced to fish, I don't want to play the new content.

Since everybody will want the Helmith, there should be multiple paths for getting it.   This would make the open world more accessible to everybody, and nobody would be bored.  I have avoided open worlds so far because I don't want to mine and fish, and I feel like Warframe excludes me from a fair amount of progression because of it.  Its not for lack of trying - Iv'e caught the stupid fish and mined the stupid minerals and it's just not entertaining for me.  Given that I played Warframe before mining and fishing were things, I feel like these are forced additions to the game that have overall negatively impacted my experience of it, whereas if I would not care if they were alternative means to achieve the same progression

 

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Lot of opinions going both ways but for all these blessed players that are just so good and awesome that they get 5 tags in 10 minutes, good for you but realize that this is not close to the typical experience.  It can't be.  There are posts after posts after posts of people talking about spending several hours and getting like 2-3 things they need.  

You have to realize that is a problem because most people aren't going to give you 15-20% of their entire day for that.

But that's not even the core issue.  The issue is there is no choice in how to progress, which makes the process feel more like a job than game play and the honest truth is that is stinging particularly bad because a lot of people are genuinely excited for Helminth and they feel like it's a huge letdown because of the way it's locked.  People kind of needed this one to hit after the recent updates.  This was going to be the one to get the feel good vibe back for the game.

But instead it is stinging because people feel their time is wasted and their hands are tied.  It's simply not fun to do so much of something that has been done in two world's already and, to be honest, it's doesn't feel like these activities are natural to the game.  If you play RDR2, it makes sense to hunt and fish.  Part of being in the old west and surviving.  Here, not so much. What they are asking for here is akin to Arthur Morgan entering a saloon to kill black Bart but before he can the bartender hands him a basket of laundry, tells him to do 30 loads of whites, 30 loads of color, iron it all, clean out the lint catcher, and THEN he will receive bullets for the gun he has to do the job.  It's utter buzkill with no practicality. 

It's easy to say "people need to accept it, it's a grind game, it's not that bad, etc" surely can be a little common sense and understand where people are coming from here.  You said there's going to be something NEW and, dang, it looks NEW AND EXCITING....but it's locked behind a terrible grind that has a conservation component that very very few people have ever supported or liked, and in the end what will happen is some people will say forget it...some will begrudgingly do it and then abandon Deimos, skipping the discovery of the nice world that DE built because they just want to get to the main thing.  

I've only played this game 1.5 years, but I have almost 2000 hours...I've condensed a lot of time in a short frame.  I've played more than casual...10-12 hours some days.   I played most of today untill 5.  Waited for the daily reset so I could get tto rank 2.  Logged on and did it and then just stared at the requirements for rank 3 and logged off.  My point being, I KNOW I am wanting to like the game and will play many, many hours if I'm having fun.  This is not fun and it's pretty telling that it was enough to look at and think "just not worth 30-40 hours for this".  

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7 minutes ago, Clowee said:

I feel they need to open more paths to the walled off content.  The problem is there are so many activities now in Warframe that some % of people are guaranteed to absolutely hate some of them.  I, for example hate mining, fishing and conservation.  When you force these activities upon me, I do not have fun playing.  10 minutes, 5 minutes, 5 hours doesn't really matter - the game should not be a chore at any point.

It's nice that there's a zillion things to do in game now, but not having options defeats the purpose of having choices.  Let the people who want to kill stuff kill stuff, and let the people who want to fish fish.  Don't force the murder hobos to fish, and don't force the fishermen to kill stuff.  It's pretty simple.  I will happily kill 100,000 of the new centipedes not to have to fish or conserve for 15 minutes.  As soon as I'm forced to fish, I don't want to play the new content.

Since everybody will want the Helmith, there should be multiple paths for getting it.   This would make the open world more accessible to everybody, and nobody would be bored.  I have avoided open worlds so far because I don't want to mine and fish, and I feel like Warframe excludes me from a fair amount of progression because of it.  Its not for lack of trying - Iv'e caught the stupid fish and mined the stupid minerals and it's just not entertaining for me.  Given that I played Warframe before mining and fishing were things, I feel like these are forced additions to the game that have overall negatively impacted my experience of it, whereas if I would not care if they were alternative means to achieve the same progression

 

Nobody is forcing anything upon you. DE has decided that they want people to do certain things to earn the Helminth. If you don't do it, you don't deserve it.

You have to realize that videogames are not a democracy. Developer decides something and you deal with it. You are not entitled to a reward, if you don't like the way to get it. Period.

BTW.. DE are actually great in this, because they are one of few devs, that actually sometimes listens to complains and changes stuff.

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1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

Nobody is forcing anything upon you. DE has decided that they want people to do certain things to earn the Helminth. If you don't do it, you don't deserve it.

You have to realize that videogames are not a democracy. Developer decides something and you deal with it. You are not entitled to a reward, if you don't like the way to get it. Period.

BTW.. DE are actually great in this, because they are one of few devs, that actually sometimes listens to complains and changes stuff.

Actually they are.  If you want to progress and play a significant part of the game, you have to hit a bottle neck.  You're really just defending it for the purpose of defending it at this point.  Many people here are trying to work to optimize the enjoyment of the game for a larger part of the playerbase.  The changes we purpose would not directly effect you, and you would still win by getting the items faster.

I feel that the point that's lost on this thread is that it doesn't matter how long it takes to do something.

It's really great that somebody can capture all the pokemon in 8 minutes (Make a video plz?).  The game just release and it's clearly been beaten.  The problem is this:

I am a murder hobo.  I play warframe for the war part of it.  Those 8 minutes suck for me.  I want to kill the animals, mount their skulls on polls, use their meat to lure in more animals, kill them too and repeat the process until all life on Demios is extinct.  I would be more happy spending 800 minutes murdering innocent Furbies than 8 minutes catching infested penguins.  What i'm basically saying is that with regards to any open world content, I would be much happier if I had alternate ways of getting there, even if i took significantly longer than DE's intended path (forced minigames, quests).  I don't feel that this is an unreasonable ask given that Warframe used to be all murder.

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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Glitschig said:

realize that this is not close to the typical experience.  It can't be.

Should I do a stream where I reproduce this 10 times with success?

I UNDERSTAND where the complaints are coming from, but people are just NOT paying attention to what is actually required to get the Helminth.

Everybody is acting like it's 100h grind.

IT TAKES 10 MINUTES TO DO THE CONSERVATION you need to do. (5 brids, 1 predasite)

Everything else you can do without the tranq rifle in your hand.

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2 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Nobody is forcing anything upon you. DE has decided that they want people to do certain things to earn the Helminth. If you don't do it, you don't deserve it.

You have to realize that videogames are not a democracy. Developer decides something and you deal with it. You are not entitled to a reward, if you don't like the way to get it. Period.

BTW.. DE are actually great in this, because they are one of few devs, that actually sometimes listens to complains and changes stuff.

are we playing the same game? you cannot rank up unless you do mining, fishing, and conservation. that is a fact. you are forced to do mining, fishing and conservation in deimos.

fortuna and PoE do not do this to anyone. it gives people options on their path up. even for quills and little duck you have options on your pathway up with them.

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2 minutes ago, Clowee said:

Actually they are.  If you want to progress and play a significant part of the game, you have to hit a bottle neck.  You're really just defending it for the purpose of defending it at this point.  Many people here are trying to work to optimize the enjoyment of the game for a larger part of the playerbase.  The changes we purpose would not directly effect you, and you would still win by getting the items faster.

I feel that the point that's lost on this thread is that it doesn't matter how long it takes to do something.

It's really great that somebody can capture all the pokemon in 8 minutes (Make a video plz?).  The game just release and it's clearly been beaten.  The problem is this:

I am a murder hobo.  I play warframe for the war part of it.  Those 8 minutes suck for me.  I want to kill the animals, mount their skulls on polls, use their meat to lure in more animals, kill them too and repeat the process until all life on Demios is extinct.  I would be more happy spending 800 minutes murdering innocent Furbies than 8 minutes catching infested penguins.  What i'm basically saying is that with regards to any open world content, I would be much happier if I had alternate ways of getting there, even if i took significantly longer than DE's intended path (forced minigames, quests).  I don't feel that this is an unreasonable ask given that Warframe used to be all murder.

I can show you this right away:

LUdwnuY.png

It says almost 11, because I returned from the gate to get the 2 viziers as well.

Btw. You can actually kill the animals... You can literally shoot the Predasites and Vulpaphylas in the head, casualy walk up to them and pick them up. That's what Ive been doing.

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1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

Should I do a stream where I reproduce this 10 times with success?

I UNDERSTAND where the complaints are coming from, but people are just NOT paying attention to what is actually required to get the Helminth.

Everybody is acting like it's 100h grind.

IT TAKES 10 MINUTES TO DO THE CONSERVATION you need to do. (5 brids, 1 predasite)

Everything else you can do without the tranq rifle in your hand.

Given that this is a 14 page thread, yes, you probably should do a video.

Either way,  you've missed the point of the conversation so much that even if you do make a video, all it's really going to do is temporarily ease the pain points of various individuals who don't want to waste their time.  Unfortunately, the understanding of the complaints is not something  you seem to be able to do, so if you want to help matters do as above.

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4 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

are we playing the same game? you cannot rank up unless you do mining, fishing, and conservation. that is a fact. you are forced to do mining, fishing and conservation in deimos.

fortuna and PoE do not do this to anyone. it gives people options on their path up. even for quills and little duck you have options on your pathway up with them.

What I meant is: You are not forced to do it. You are required to do it to progress in this aspect of the game.

And that's a BIG difference.

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Just now, Cerikus said:

What I meant is: You are not forced to do it. You are required to do it to progress in this aspect of the game.

And that's a BIG difference.

cool,

What I and others with similar meant is that sucks.  We don't enjoy it.  We would appreciate it if DE would stop doing it.  We don't care if others like to mine hunt and fish, but we would kindly ask that we be given alternatives, even if it takes more time.

Why is this such an unreasonable ask?  Should we not enjoy the game too?

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2 minutes ago, Clowee said:

Given that this is a 14 page thread, yes, you probably should do a video.

Either way,  you've missed the point of the conversation so much that even if you do make a video, all it's really going to do is temporarily ease the pain points of various individuals who don't want to waste their time.  Unfortunately, the understanding of the complaints is not something  you seem to be able to do, so if you want to help matters do as above.

I don't like defense mission. I think it's boring, too long and needs a rework.

I demand that DE either delets it or gives me a possibility to do something else, because I will NOT play it and I cannot get past Earth. The whole game is gated for me, because I am forced to play this horrible mission type.

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1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

I don't like defense mission. I think it's boring, too long and needs a rework.

I demand that DE either delets it or gives me a possibility to do something else, because I will NOT play it and I cannot get past Earth. The whole game is gated for me, because I am forced to play this horrible mission type.

Pointless comparison.

Based on the original logic, the ask would be for DE to give you an alternative to said defense mission.  The ask is not to delete the defense mission in this case.  The ask is to allow another path which circumnavigates said defense mission and achieves the same thing, even if it's 3 nodes longer.

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2 minutes ago, Clowee said:

cool,

What I and others with similar meant is that sucks.  We don't enjoy it.  We would appreciate it if DE would stop doing it.  We don't care if others like to mine hunt and fish, but we would kindly ask that we be given alternatives, even if it takes more time.

Why is this such an unreasonable ask?  Should we not enjoy the game too?

You said:

27 minutes ago, Clowee said:

The problem is there are so many activities now in Warframe that some % of people are guaranteed to absolutely hate some of them.

If DE does what you ask for everybody that absolutely hates something. We will have ONE HUUUGE droptable for literally every mission type, every node, every piece of content.

Is that something you would like?

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2 minutes ago, Clowee said:

Pointless comparison.

Based on the original logic, the ask would be for DE to give you an alternative to said defense mission.  The ask is not to delete the defense mission in this case.  The ask is to allow another path which circumnavigates said defense mission and achieves the same thing, even if it's 3 nodes longer.

Dude... I literally wrote in there: "or gives me a possibility to do something else"

By that I meant exactly what you are telling me is the correct comparison...

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1 minute ago, Cerikus said:

You said:

If DE does what you ask for everybody that absolutely hates something. We will have ONE HUUUGE droptable for literally every mission type, every node, every piece of content.

Is that something you would like?

If you think in terms of absolutes then yes that's a problem.  When you apply what really happens, the ask becomes a lot more reasonable.  You don't see multiple 14 page threads regarding how much people hate defense missions which repeat every time you release a new defense mission.  You do see them for open worlds though.

There are some topics/items which are very divisive, and there are some which are not.  For the more divisive topics, It's probably worth paying more attention to.  What's you're real issue with me getting a Helmith segment by farming 100,000 mother tokens over the course of a month or so?  How does this affect you?

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1 hour ago, Cerikus said:

Several reasons actually.

1) It was a new thing in Fortuna and vast majority of people love it. They loved it since the begining, especially the floofs.
2) It is a great plot point in the quest and has a great thematic/lore reason to exist.
3) It is ironically the most reliable farm (from the trio mining,fishing,conservation) 
     - mining is rng
     - fishing is complex with rng mixed in
     - you always target farm for the creature, so you got what you need in 5 minutes

Apart form the birds I did a few moments ago to prove that it takes 10 minutes (I can post screenshot as a prove)

I have yet to go ouside and actually do the conservation. I have NOT done it on purpose. I have accidentally hit few creatures with my Pyrana and just picked them up. And I already have 7 Son's tokens. Where exactly is the problem? 😄

P.S. We all agree that the requirements are a bit too harsh for an average player. THAT'S WHY DE WILL FIX IT IN THE NEXT HOTFIX.
 

I am sure everybody loves the conservation. This is why this thread is 14 pages long.

DE is doing.. the same mistake. This reminds me when Steve doubled down on Kuva Liches killed players. Then it was removed later. Why do we have to go through this every time? The hotfix needed is not to reduce cost, but to remove conservation entirely as requirement for leveling. And the whole token system is unnecessarily convoluted and needs a redesign.

I am not saying Conservation should not be an option. I wanted to be an option. Not mandatory. 

Keep in mind, if the Helminth system is not tied to Demios, the whole syndicate would not matter.. much. But it does, so all none fighting activities should not be a gate for it. 

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22 minutes ago, Clowee said:

If you think in terms of absolutes then yes that's a problem.  When you apply what really happens, the ask becomes a lot more reasonable.  You don't see multiple 14 page threads regarding how much people hate defense missions which repeat every time you release a new defense mission.  You do see them for open worlds though.

There are some topics/items which are very divisive, and there are some which are not.  For the more divisive topics, It's probably worth paying more attention to.  What's you're real issue with me getting a Helmith segment by farming 100,000 mother tokens over the course of a month or so?  How does this affect you?

If DE would do it the way you descirbe, I would have 0 problem. I would actually support it. If there was something like: 50 Steel essence, 50 Vitus essence, 6900 Mother tokens. I would support it 100%

But please don't pretend that we both do not know, that DE will never do it that way. Next hotfix will diminish the number of conservations required to get the tokens. Therefore they will retrospectively reduce the commitment that people have already put it. They will not make a different way to get it. They will nullify the commitment of people that worked for it.

That's what is bothering me. I don't care about the resources or tokens. I care about the fakt that I work for my Helminth segment. I commit. Other will shout on the forums long enough until DE will give it to them in the Inbox message.

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4 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

I am sure everybody loves the conservation. This is why this thread is 14 pages long.

DE is doing.. the same mistake. This reminds me when Steve doubled down on Kuva Liches killed players. Then it was removed later. Why do we have to go through this every time? The hotfix needed is not to reduce cost, but to remove conservation entirely as requirement for leveling. And the whole token system is unnecessarily convoluted and needs a redesign.

I am not saying Conservation should not be an option. I wanted to be an option. Not mandatory. 

Keep in mind, if the Helminth system is not tied to Demios, the whole syndicate would not matter.. much. But it does, so all none fighting activities should not be a gate for it. 

Unfortunatelly our discussion with Clowee has taken a lot of the pages and number of people that contributed to this thread is actaually pretty small.

Liches killing players was not a gate of any sorts, it was just bad flavor of interaction.

I have already stated several times why token system is objectively an improvement.

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