Heart of Deimos: New Syndicates & Economy Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)thegarada]

4 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Unfortunatelly our discussion with Clowee has taken a lot of the pages and number of people that contributed to this thread is actaually pretty small.

Liches killing players was not a gate of any sorts, it was just bad flavor of interaction.

I have already stated several times why token system is objectively an improvement.

Token system could be an improvement, ONLY, if you can obtain all of them by playing bounties. And even then, less currencies the better. We do not need to have 5 f*****g currencies for one f*****g map. As the saying goes: "keep it simple stupid."

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

Avichaea.

WTactualF.

Went to every spawn point, used call lure, none came. checked the sky. checked the ledges. climbed up as high as I could. Flew around in AW. Used the tranq gun to scan for them and the synth scanner - nothing.  

Even the spawn point is a joke - you get to the start of the track, press x to start the hunt and --- no footprints - just an objective circle that starts a hundred meters away - so you go over there and randomly walk around hoping to stumble across some prints - although are more likely to just randomly find the call point.  Not that that does any good as the lure apparently is as effective at calling these birds as a catcall is at attracting women on the streets of NY.

 

and you need 5 of these "common" pos birds to rank up? 

[Cerikus]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)thegarada said:

Token system could be an improvement, ONLY, if you can obtain all of them by playing bounties. And even then, less currencies the better. We do not need to have 5 f*****g currencies for one f*****g map. As the saying goes: "keep it simple stupid."

Okay im gonna do it again:

previous iterations of syndicates have a flaw of standing cap. Once your reach standing cap, playing the bounties,missions is a waste. Token help with this, because you can play one day and redeem them 5 next days without playing (maybe you don't have time)

Let's overlook that there are different tokens for lore/story/theme reasons. And let's overlook the fact that there is no other place in the game where it would make sence to get a Warframe eating infested. (The only place being an Orokin that deals with infestaition and mutation.)

The tokens are different, because all of them can be made to standing. (you can pick the one you like to do)

But if someone does EVERYTHING, the person can exchange them to get more standing as a reward for doing everything.

[Cerikus]

8 minutes ago, (XB1)Tucker D Dawg said:

Avichaea.

WTactualF.

Went to every spawn point, used call lure, none came. checked the sky. checked the ledges. climbed up as high as I could. Flew around in AW. Used the tranq gun to scan for them and the synth scanner - nothing.  

Even the spawn point is a joke - you get to the start of the track, press x to start the hunt and --- no footprints - just an objective circle that starts a hundred meters away - so you go over there and randomly walk around hoping to stumble across some prints - although are more likely to just randomly find the call point.  Not that that does any good as the lure apparently is as effective at calling these birds as a catcall is at attracting women on the streets of NY.

 

and you need 5 of these "common" pos birds to rank up? 

Best way is to get in archwing equip the tranq rifle and do a quick sweep of the map, you almost always find a group of 2 or 3. Afer that you will probably need to do like 2 normal ways of catching. It cannot take more than 10-15 minutes max to get all of them. 

[IamLoco]

11 hours ago, Cpl_Facehugger said:

We've had glasses for operators for literal years. Seriously, glasses were among the very first operator cosmetics. I don't see how another character having glasses is somehow this strange thing.

 

 

 

I found the glasses for operators also a little strange, but still "ok". I would guess that in a time where people cut off their heads and implant them into the stomach of a robot, glasses are an obsolete thing. Anyway.

But here we have a half Orokin, half infested ....being. She lives in a slimy alien flower thing, but her glasses look like she bought them 5 minutes ago from her optician. 

That´s why I said they look misplaced for me, just "out of place". Hope this makes sense. And ofc it´s only my personal feedback.

[Tesseract7777]

The RNG on Son needs some serious fine tuning and is honestly extremely frustrating. 

I just conservated a bunch of animals over the space of two hours, didn't use bait yet, but just a decent variety all over. 

After coming in on the tail end of one reset, then yet another, I saw three different sets of the rng options to trade tags for tokens. 

In all of them, many of the animals I conserved were not even part of any of the sets. 

In others, the amounts were skewed and make no sense. 

For example, I saw one that was 1 token, that was literally exactly the same two types of resources as one that gave more tokens, but it cost more of each resource than the one that gave more. This shouldn't even be possible in your algorithm, there should be else/if statements to prevent it. It just looks like the whole economy doesn't even make sense and it's really hard to make proper use of. 

The requirements are also extremely expensive, but even that wouldn't necessarily be such an issue as animals spawn all over the place compared to PoE and obvious Vallis where you have to bait. The problem is almost entirely that the rng is so rng that a lot of the time many of the animals I currently have stocked up tags on so far aren't even appearing as part of the requirements for any of the current tokens, and the requirements are so messed up right now that I can sometimes spend more of the same amount of the same two resources to get one of something when I could spend less of that and get three. 

I don't hate it like some people, I mostly am finding animals pretty quickly, but his token section needs some real tuning up. 

Also, common avichea's don't seem so common... if I had known they were needed for the rank up (I guess I should have checked, my fault), then I might not have given them up so quickly, but I also expect common to mean common. Only found a handful so far, so their spawns may need some tweaking if they are supposed to show up commonly. 

 

[Somnia]

Forcing everyone to fish, mine, and tranq animals as rank-up requirements ain't good, because they're not universally fun activities for everyone, and they're certainly not why people flock to play Warframe in general. And it's not just the concept, it's their execution; these side activities are often tedious, less productive feeling, and comparatively unfun. Wandering around the map pulling your hair out looking for that one subspecies of critter just because you need it to swap Warframe abilities isn't very cash money.

It wouldn't be as much of a bother if these things all just plainly showed up on the minimap and that's it. Mining spots, fish locations, conservation animals. 

You'll be harder pressed to find many whose idea of fun is manufacturing fish highlighters and buying specific baits just to wait around for their building materials to possibly float by.

[Almagnus1]

Only thing I'd like to see at Daughter is bait recipes, other than that, fishing feels good.

Mining also needs a new widget for the drill that adds an arrow for the deposits, and it may be a good series of widgets to have as I don't want that on Fortuna or PoE, but it's crucial on Deimos.

21 minutes ago, Scorn said:

Forcing everyone to fish, mine, and tranq animals as rank-up requirements ain't good, because they're not universally fun activities for everyone, and they're certainly not why people flock to play Warframe in general.

You actually don't need to do that as I'm getting enough resources from the bounties that it hasn't really been necessary.  I've only went mining once initially, and fishing only to get through that gate before I learned that I just needed to do the bounties and not worry about the individual parts.  I've also been able to generate a ton of tokens just from world pickups.

[(XBOX)Tucker D Dawg]

43 minutes ago, Cerikus said:

Best way is to get in archwing equip the tranq rifle and do a quick sweep of the map, you almost always find a group of 2 or 3. Afer that you will probably need to do like 2 normal ways of catching. It cannot take more than 10-15 minutes max to get all of them. 

perhaps on pc. on xbox I have swept the map in AW for about an hour witha few visits back into town to reset spawns - plenty of other animals to tranq - but no birds on land or in the sky. - in that hour I got 10 Cryptilex, 14 Vulpaphyla, and 16 Predasites.

In addition to that wasted hour, I have managed to get 1 from a call point in in 15 call point attempts.  I hear the traq gun beeping like there is something around to tranq but searched around and scanned the sky (from land and sky) for 10 minutes at each of those call points and only the one time was a bird found.

So thats about 3 hours total wasted for 1 damn tag.

[(PSN)NostrathomasJ]

BAD:

Conservation Issue: Please remove conservation from the main syndicate progression (Mother) or make the tribute to advance an easier target to capture and acquire.

Reason: For me, conservation has never been a "core element" of the main experience of Warframe. Conservation was added to enhance the game and give players another way to get involved in the open worlds however, not all players enjoy this sort of involvement. I am one of those players. By tying this to progression you are forcing players to play part of the game that is not what they potentially started playing this game for in the first place. I recall when they showed this off on the devstream, I was not impressed. Watching Rebecca search for scat and her animal a total bore and had me thinking, "Is this even Warframe anymore?"

Closing: Conservation tied to main syndicate progression frustrates me and I am not alone. I may just go back to the "core gameplay" loop of shoot, loot, farm, build, forma, repeat on randomized tilesets. My friends who have returned to this game after long periods away will probably leave the game when they hit the conservation aspect too.

 

GOOD:

Thank you for adding mutagen samples to Deimos open world. There are still some clans that are struggling with the ludicrous cost for the Hema. I wish you would reduce the cost for Hema research but I know you mentioned not wanting to trivialize player investment. Funny thing is, you refunded me materials for building an expensive railjack and that trivialized that investment even after gifting me 2 repair drones. 

[Somnia]

1 minute ago, Almagnus1 said:

[snip]

Getting the tags for the rank-up requirement is the worst misery

[Borg1611]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

We are reducing the number of Son Tokens in a near Hotfix. Thanks all! 

 

Getting to rank 3 also requires specific tags, which is redundant with requiring Son tokens since we had to farm a bunch of tags to get the tokens in the first place. I personally already have the Son tokens required for rank 3, but am not looking forward to finishing the specific tags to get that rank when I have the rep tomorrow. Conservation isn't fun in general, but that specific rank up requires that you get 5 of the flying ones, which are buggy and obnoxious to get. At least twice when I was first trying to get them, the footprints didn't even spawn when clicking on their spot. Sometimes they seemingly don't spawn after calling them and unlike some of the other conservation animals, you don't seem to see them frequently flying out in the wild to capture without lures.

[Keltik0ne]

It seems to be a step backwards, to add further layers of grind and RNG to a system already infested (sorry) by it.

A whole bunch of the new syndicate seems to exist for no reason at all, unless it's to pad out a really thin amount of content.

[Vasala]

I was a bit shocked to see that to gild the new companions takes 10 son tokens in addition to the 5000 reputation. Shouldn't it be like all other gilding and only take the 5k rep? With this set up to fully master all 6 of the new pets it will take 60 son tokens and 30000 reputation.

I am also not a fan of having to buy weapon blueprints as a rank up requirement for the two new factions. That is just basically increasing the rep needed for each rank up. Both factions feel very punitive in the amount of stuff needed for each sacrifice.

[Frosty-the-snowden]

I'm really glad about the token system, honestly. With the addition of Thumpers to the Plains, which drop large stockpiles of various Cetus resources, DE capitulated to the vocal minority of manbabies that ignore the vital, core mechanics of this hunting, fishing and mining simulator to exploit the obscure side-system of killing many dangerous enemies with exotic weapons and superpowers. I respect DE for putting their foot down and saying that no one's getting around going to a tiny red landscape and hunting down monsters that look exactly like the 100 other monsters smacking you in the face at any given moment, not even for a flimsy excuse like "I lost all interest in this update as soon as I played the introductory quest" and "all I wanted to do was access the helminth system"

Hell, I think DE should go further and henceforth the only community feedback accepted should be from the 15 people who care about floofs

[cdemonec]

From 2016，there are three problems in warframe：

First ，the links between plays with servers and other plays.That destoyied the game experience.

Second,the reward mechanism is disappointment. For example ，the cash in the bounty mission.

Third, farming island is the only thing I can play in the game. If we get all the NPC rewards  in Deioms, we just wait to AFK and then wait for next farming island.This is the serious problem.If it doesn't change, then the programmers like Steve will struggle to deal with the updatas of game . But everytime the game has new things ,that just like pusing back the “wall“ in frount of us and soon we will get another new “wall” . So the urgent affairs is figuring  out the way to “Making a hole in the wall”.

So I have reason to suspect that you haven't been playing your own games in depth.

 

[(PSN)Deeceem]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Cerikus:

Best way is to get in archwing equip the tranq rifle and do a quick sweep of the map, you almost always find a group of 2 or 3. Afer that you will probably need to do like 2 normal ways of catching. It cannot take more than 10-15 minutes max to get all of them. 

It can be six hours of conservation without even seeing one. I roamed, AW'd, did their conservation spots and I yet have to actually visually see one with my own eyes. I might be bad, I might be blind but I assure you they are at the very least not 10-15 minutes common on console.

I also havn't seen a single Medjay during that time nor anything but Sly Infested Cat/Foxes.

[(PSN)trontor]

I apologise if this has been mentioned before but this threads is too long to read.

Xaku and weapon blueprints should not be bounty rewards. This is a repeat of the same mistake that was made in PoE (Gara, Revenant and Furax Wraith) and Orb Vallis (Garuda). These blueprints are only useful once (or twice now with the Helminth system) and will in the long run just lead to frustration because they become completely useless drops very quickly. I'm only a few hours into this update and I already have two of the Xaku blueprints and one for that melee weapon. Getting those again will be basically lost drops compared to materials or even relics.

Speaking about relics: do we really need to have those in the drop tables to pad them out? About two thirds of my drops yesterday where Axi S7 relics and I would have very much preferred new crafting resources.

My preferred system would be getting only tokens and then being able to directly buy things with them.

[Ichsuisme]

Finding scintillant is miserable.

[AltheusVI]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)trontor said:

I apologise if this has been mentioned before but this threads is too long to read.

Xaku and weapon blueprints should not be bounty rewards. This is a repeat of the same mistake that was made in PoE (Gara, Revenant and Furax Wraith) and Orb Vallis (Garuda). These blueprints are only useful once (or twice now with the Helminth system) and will the long run just lead to frustration because they became completely useless drops very quickly. I'm only a few hours into this update and I already have two of the Xaku blueprints and one for that melee weapon. Getting those again will be basically lost drops compared to materials or even relics.

Speaking about relics: do we really need to have those in the drop tables to pad them out? About two thirds of my drops yesterday where Axi S7 relics and I would have very much preferred new crafting resources.

My preferred system would be getting only tokens and then being able to directly buy things with them.

Just had an idea, fill the bounty drop tables with the different kinds of tokens, make them uncommon rewards. That would give a way past having to grind out mining, fishing and hunting for those that don't like them.

That would also allow people to hammer through all the content in a couple of hours intense play if they really wanted to, and then spend the next 6 months complaining about a content drought. Looks like every solution brings its own problem.

[Almagnus1]

2 hours ago, Scorn said:

Getting the tags for the rank-up requirement is the worst misery

Yeah, I just got there.

On the bright side, Ivara's a really good huntress sooo.....

[Maelphaedor]

Just to chime in with the others, I hate conservation. It's not entertaining, fun or even diverting to me (and obviously a lot of others)

What's needed is some sort of token change system based on their "value". So they could be swapped, LOVE fishing, but hate conservation, easy, earn daughter tokens with fish and then convert them to son tokens. Grandmother would make an excellent vendor for that functionality. Sure, but in some sort of penalty/tax on it, but at least that will allow folks to PROGRESS. I don't expect to be "finished" with HoD in a few days, but damn, it could be a month or more before many of us can even hit rank 3 because of the son tokens needed, and that's just bullS#&$.

[(XBOX)Vile Slanders]

Conservation. You know, when I think about a game that's tagline is "Ninjas play free", I'm not thinking about spending HOURS sniffing dung and whistling with a tranq rifle jammed up my bum. 

You guys made a game that caters to mainstream hack & slash enthusiasts, and then you decided to introduce non-combat systems to the game to appeal to a niche audience. Fine. If that's what you want to waste your corporate resources on, then by all means, do so.

Expecting me to waste MY resources playing your incredibly unappealing non-combat grind systems, just to advance in a syndicate far enough to further enhance my combat experiences?

I think I'm well within my rights to tell everyone at DE involved in that design decision to eff right off. 

This is bait and switch; I didn't install Warframe to play boring side games, I installed warframe to be a one man army indiscriminately slaughtering my way through hordes of silly looking enemies with a genocidal fervor across the cosmos.

And here in Deimos, I have to put ALL of that on hold to sniff poo and tranq mutts; just to access Helminth, Necramechs, and build a rip-off of W40K's Bolter Rifle.

TLDR; Associate rank takes more BS conservation effort than I'm willing to invest. 

The Token system needs to go; plain and simple. This was a terrible idea, made worse with a thoughtless execution.

On subject of Isolation Vaults: Wow. Couldn't have diluted the drop pool with worthless relics anymore than you already did. Get the relics out of the reward table; I've already got a bajillion ways to farm relics in Warframe; I don't need the grind for a Necramech prolonged by an obvious reward bias towards Relics.

On the subject of Necramech drop chances: Oh my god. I've killed several dozen of these things, I've scored two parts and one Necramech mod. For an enemy type this rare, these drop chances and exclusive drop table is ridiculous. Guarantee a mod drop (or provide alternative sources of Necramech mod drops/rewards), and jack up the chance to drop a part. This is taking way too much grind to get absolutely NO WHERE.

On the subject of Mining: Third time you've introduced this awful grind mechanic; third time you've messed it up. Mining nodes lay flat on uneven surfaces, making half of the nodes detected completely inaccessible. I get the ping on my drill, I know the exact location of the node, but my laser drill can't reach it through clipping environmentals. You guys have this exact same issue every open world release; just stop adding these stupid side games to Warframe and invest your time and talent into making content that's actually ENTERTAINING. 

Good grief. I don't know why you guys can't make a decent update anymore. Used to be, a new frame and weapon was all we wanted with an update. Now you're giving us everything we don't want, and rationing off the stuff we do want behind aggravating grind walls and stupid non-combat side games.

[HelloItIsIJimbles]

Can I do double mining and fishing to skip conservation? 

I hate it.

[abstractwhiz]

So I thought about a bunch of ideas along the lines of having Grandmother convert one token type to another, but frankly all of those seem painful to implement, and would just cause additional confusion in a system that already has extremely unclear progression. Also there's no hope of getting DE buy-in because I imagine there is some studio incentive to having people do every activity (metrics or something?). I'd suggest something like this:

1. Conservation as expected by Son is not possible on Deimos without a major redesign. Everything looks roughly the same, there are too many varieties of creature, tracking doesn't work well, and you can't really avoid hostiles because they pop out of the ground. So instead of having Son ask for specific tags, completely throw out the debt-bond model for conservation. Just divide the animals into 3 tiers and have him give you X tokens for Y captures of each tier. That way we can go around and capture random creatures we encounter and actually get something useful for it. I spent an hour roaming the Cambion Drift alternating between fishing, mining and conservation. I ended up with a ton of Daughter and Otak tokens, and absolutely nothing from Son. Ideally you should be able to get all the Son tokens you need via this casual approach. 
2. In the same vein, adjust the rank up requirements so that instead of asking for some specific tags, we just give them N tags of any type. Or just remove them from rank up requirements entirely, because after (1) they'll actually be useful for getting Son tokens. It doesn't make sense to have Son tokens as well as the things you use to get Son tokens in the same list. 
3. Mining and fishing are far more doable, but I'd still suggest using the same sort of tier system rather than the Ticker model.
4. Father is probably the only one who can reasonably use the debt-bond model, because resources will passively turn up if you just play. Grandmother has a good lore reason to do it -- she's trying to unite her family, so it makes sense that she wants combinations of tokens. There's a minmaxing reason for it if you want to maximize bang for your buck. But it's best to remove Grandmother Tokens as requirements for purchasing anything. Maybe do something like 3-5 Grandmother tokens for the highest level rank up. 

I'm not in a huge hurry to get Helminth, so the current unworkable state doesn't bother me as much. But there's now enough precedent from PoE for people to expect that all the Deimos grinds will be heavily scaled back. A fair few players will sit back and wait for that to happen, which will reduce engagement rather than increase it.